Gwok Jing vs. Wong Seung

[Ken Cheng]

Wong Seung created the 9 Yum Jen Ging. In the JY universe, the only other person who could be said to have mastered the complete 9 Yum Jen Ging was Gwok Jing. If Wong Seung fought Gwok Jing (at his peak), who would have prevailed?

I am of the opinion that latter day practitioners of a skill generally cannot master that skill at a higher level than the skill's *originator*, but this is merely an opinion, not an absolute truth. Moreover, although Wong Seung was the 9 Yum Jen Ging's creator, the 9 Yum Jen Ging represented the total body of his martial arts skill . . . he had nothing else. Gwok Jing, on the other hand, had such additional skills as Hong Lung 18 Palms, Vacant Fist, Left/Right Hand Technique, Cheun Jen Sect martial arts, and Peach Blossom Island martial arts.

[QF]

Who would have prevailed?


I would go for Gwok Jing. Reason? There is a saying in chinese that goes like this: Ji(zhi) Gei(Ji) Ji(zhi) Pei(Pi), Bak(Bai) Jin(zhan) Bak(bai) Sing(Sheng). Which is, the more you know your opponent, the more advantages you have.


Gwok Jing, have more of less grasped/understands the whole idea of 9 yin. I don't think Wong Seung could teach Gwok Jing anything else about 9 yin. On the other hand, there are some kung fu that Gwok Jing has that Wong Seung just simply never saw before.

In terms of inner power, I would say that they are about the same. Technique wise: I go for Gwok Jing.


You never told us your opinion.

[Allen D]

Who says that latter day practioners can't be better than the creator? I believe in HSDS WuJi was able to reach the highest level among all the practitioners of QKDNY even including the creator.

[superboy]

Basically this is something that is very hard to tell. GJ did trained 9 Yin since around 20 onto his 50s at the end of ROCH. So he might or might not have coultivated more than HS. HS might also be very familiar with the techniques inside 9 Yin, while GJ used other stuffs in battle.

[Temujin]

Originally posted by QF
Who would have prevailed?

Gwok Jing, have more of less grasped/understands the whole idea of 9 yin. I don't think Wong Seung could teach Gwok Jing anything else about 9 yin. On the other hand, there are some kung fu that Gwok Jing has that Wong Seung just simply never saw before.

In terms of inner power, I would say that they are about the same. Technique wise: I go for Gwok Jing.


You never told us your opinion.

Do you have any proves that their inner power are about the same ? How do you base your opinion ?

Knowing more techniques doesn't mean he's better. Remember when YG knows too many techniques but without any deep understanding in any one of them. When he finally created his own technique and master one or two techniques specifically is when he becomes a very formidable fighter.

I'm not saying that GJ doesn't have any deep understanding in HL18Z, 9-Yin, Peach Blossom Kungfu, L-R Techniques, Vacant Fists, etc... but the point I'm trying to make is.... knowing more techniques doesn't mean he's better .... We have to consider experience, natural talent (remember Xiao Feng), inner power, deep understanding of the techniques, and other factors.

Just look at Xu Zhu when he fought JMZ in Tian Long Ba Bu. He was using simple Shaolin Fist techniques against the more advanced techniques with more variation that JMZ was using. But everytime XZ threw a punch, JMZ was kept at a distance.

[superboy]

You don't find people with as much internal eenrgy as XZ walking around, and he did eventually need to result using his Xiao Yao techniques.

[ChronoReverse]

Also, YG knew a lot of techniques but was master of few.

GJ knows many techniques, but the ones he uses, he's completely mastered and/or have improved it.

Combined with the fact that he also comprehends 9 Yin gives him an advantage over WS in a sense.


However, I'm inclined to think that WS may in fact just barely win simply because he was a sheer genius.

[Candide]

My bet is on GJ.

Huang Shang, before he created 9 Yin, took on the Ming cult when they were not at their peak, and nobody knew more than 30% of QKDNY. He killed a few but got seriously injured. Remember that the fights were one on one only so he didn't fight them all simultaneously. So HS wasn't that good then.

After he created 9 Yin, he was already close to 90yo, not at his peak anymore. Also, he didn't even get a chance to test his 9 Yin then as his opponents were all dead so I bet HS also died shortly afterwards. Luckily, his 9 Yin was a success and became a "Zhen Jing" for the latter generations.

Huang Shang before creating 9 Yin, Huang Shang during the creation of 9 Yin (not yet fully mastered it) and Huang Shang after he created 9 Yin... none of them can fight GJ at his peak in ROCH.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Candide
Huang Shang, before he created 9 Yin, took on the Ming cult when they were not at their peak, and nobody knew more than 30% of QKDNY. He killed a few but got seriously injured. Remember that the fights were one on one only so he didn't fight them all simultaneously. So HS wasn't that good then.

Huang Shang didn't just fought the Ming Sect. In fact, he beated the Ming Sect. Later the entire martial art world seek revenge on him, so they all gathered together to kill him. He was really out numbered. then he ran away.

Later he created a martial art and practiced to a point where he can single handedly defeat all his enemies at once.

[CC]

To say that GJ knows all of WS's kung fu is to assume that WS

1. wrote all he knew into the manual

2. is a perfect writer who can convert all his thoughts into the written word.

Not to say that you need to know all of WS's stuff to beat him.

[Candide]

From what we know about HS (a genius, read 5000+ Taoist books and developed his own kungfu from them etc.) I think it's safe to assume these points.

Huang Shang didn't just fought the Ming Sect. In fact, he beated the Ming Sect.

Hmm I remember reading that initially he commanded the Song army to fight the Ming cult (possibly with Fang Lap as their leader ?) but failed miserably, so he got a little mad and went to challenge the Ming cult himself. He fought one on one with them and killed a few guardian lords and their left right messengers. They then accused him of being too cruel and not following wulin rules - he replied: I'm not a wulin member so those rules don't apply to me. Later the top fighters in wulin came to challenge him, still one on one but this time he was exhausted by the end and had to flee, leaving his family behind to be slaughtered by the upholders of wulin rules...

[superboy]

Wierd, if there are already Ming guardian lords and L/R messengers, then why are none of them even mentioned in LOCH and ROCH? Assuming that they're are probably top fighters.

[JUST BOB]

they were weaken since he kill most of their best fighters I think, and they didn't reappear til HSDS.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Candide
Hmm I remember reading that initially he commanded the Song army to fight the Ming cult (possibly with Fang Lap as their leader ?) but failed miserably, so he got a little mad and went to challenge the Ming cult himself. He fought one on one with them and killed a few guardian lords and their left right messengers. They then accused him of being too cruel and not following wulin rules - he replied: I'm not a wulin member so those rules don't apply to me. Later the top fighters in wulin came to challenge him, still one on one but this time he was exhausted by the end and had to flee, leaving his family behind to be slaughtered by the upholders of wulin rules...

are you sure it is one on one?
I remember he was outnumbered.

[Candide]

It was one on one but they outnumbered him so he eventually was exhausted.

[Ken Cheng]

Revisiting this topic after oh so many years...

We've seen that it's possible for a latter-day practitioner of a martial art to surpass the the skill's inventor in its use. The most famous example of this is Cheung Mo Gei using the Ming Cult's Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee, which he mastered to a level that the skill's originator never attained.

Do we have any clear evidence that Gwok Jing accomplished or failed to accomplish this with the 9 Yum Jen Ging? Is there any clue that shows that he either surpassed Wong Seung's mastery of this skill or never achieved Wong Seung's level of mastery?

[Ian Liew]

Guo Jing managed to consolidate 9yin and the Dragon Subduing Palms together, something which Huang Shang probably never had the chance to do. Although I don't think he ever practiced the skills portion of 9yin (he never learned, or at least demonstrated that he had learned, the 9yin claws as practiced by Yellow-Dress girl, for example), but the Dragon Subduing Palms were arguably a more powerful form of arts, and to be able to convert a yang-based skill into a softer yin-based effect might show that Guo Jing did something which Huang Shang didn't. Not to say Huang Shang couldn't do it, but he didn't have access to such a top-level martial art outside his own 9yin creation.

Having said that, I don't recall any evidence in ROCH that Guo Jing was clearly superior to the other Greats (not counting the age factor), and as none of them (bar Zhou Botong and Ouyang Feng) practiced 9yin beyond the need for the tending of injuries, if they were still around equal it would have meant that either 9yin wasn't as far ahead of everything else as originally expected, or Guo Jing had yet to master it completely. I'm leaning towards the former, though. Wang Chongyang, after all, didn't think it worth learning, although that was probably more to do with him already being the best in wulin and not needing it, rather than him thinking that it wasn't any better than his Xiantiangong.

[Dirt]

Wang Chongyang completely absorbed the essence of 9yin in 1 reading. WCY mastered the art in thought if not in practice.

[tape]

Don't think it's quite possible to master something in one sitting no matter how talented you are.

I imagine it's something like Linghu Chong initially learning the essence of Dugu 9 Jian and already improving by leaps and bounds and being able to defeat Tian, or Zhang Wuji learning the essence of Taiji Fist/Sword and being able to defeat high leveled opponents. Both would need to practice for months or years to be able to truly master it.

[Ken Cheng]

Don't think it's quite possible to master something in one sitting no matter how talented you are.

Cheung Mo Gei did manage to master the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee in an afternoon, though it wasn't talent that got him there: the 9 Yeung Jen Ging had done the heavy lifting for him.