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Thread: Solved: The Never-Ending Debate

  1. #1
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    Default i have solved the neverending debate...YG vs. GJ

    hi everyone, this is my first post so don't be shy. i don't care if you're harsh, just be correct. haha...here we go.

    this topic has really become a twofold discussion:

    1. guo jing vs. yang guo

    2. guo jing vs. linghu chong

    (and actually, also 3. why yang guo is better than everybody)

    now it's time for me to throw in my two cents.

    first off, guo jing (GJ) vs. yang guo (YG):

    what we have here is really style vs. substance. honestly, in almost all of ROCH, YG's foundation is never really as good as the opponents he faces -- i mean, forget the 4 greats, he can't match up with even GongSunZhi, or the fighters at the mongolian camp with GJ, and so on according to his level in the novel. HOWEVER...he pretty much wins every battle he's ever been in (save the old quanzhen fights when he was little). why? one simple word, my friend --- style.
    YG has always been able to defeat, or at least match, his enemies through either thorough analysis of their techniques (scissors vs. LMC), or by utilizing a new technique himself (sad palm, dogbeating stick, dugu techniques, the list goes on). the whole of ROCH is really about YG's kungfu genius...i mean, save HYS and HR (maybe ZBT), i don't think anyone was able to even come close to his ability to both learn and develop martial arts.

    having said that, here comes GJ...the master of refinement. he's picked up what, 5 skills in his life? 9yin, HL18Z, some mongolian stuff he learned (like when he kicked himself up the wall to escape the mongolian encampment)...man, i don't even think i can name five. HOWEVER, he's practiced 9yin and HL18Z so profoundly that he's really unstoppable man, he's like a bull. yes, he's the master of peach flower island kungfu, but he never uses it...i really think that his internal strength is what carries him through. it could even make his HL18Z more powerful than XF's, considering he modified it with 9yin.

    but here's the final point that makes it all count: the dugu training that YG received made his internal energy incredibly profound -- by the end of ROCH, he was able to match palms with GLFW without losing any ground. i think that would put him at least on comparable grounds with GJ, if not even higher maybe. remember, GLFW's internal strength had been higher than GJ's through the whole book, as mentioned at the heroes banquet...the only reason why GJ was able to hold him back with 70% at the mongolian camp was because GLFW was competing with the other guys to kill GJ too. even with 9yin training, i doubt it would be TOO much higher than either YG or GLFW.
    now here's the big question: if both their internal energies are almost equal, who would win between GJ and YG? i mean, their sadpalm vs. HL18Z would be close, or so HYS said...


    YG wins. his ability to adapt using whatever skills he had at the time has been proved time and time again throughout the book...heavens sake, it's the theme of all his fights! there's no way GJ could win with a weapon...either dogbeating stick technique or the dugu's technique would take care of any weapon he could bring.

    the only way i could see GJ winning is with brute overwhelming of internal energy, much like OYF vs. H7G, but i already established that their internal energy is close.

    looks like YG's got the edge...

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    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    whoops, i forgot that i intended the post originally for the YG vs. LingHu Chong topic...but i'll post my opinion on that too.

    my boy LHC. i always liked him...

    but honestly, how could he win?

    okay, so he's learned DG9J quite well, from the man himself. able to get pointers, advice, explanation...i'd say he'd probably learnt dugu9swords to its finest point.

    however, YG went waaaaaaaaay beyond that...i mean, as he finished practicing in the waterfall, he said he had actually reached the pinnacle of swordsmanship. read this (courtesy of lanny):

    "The rain finally stopped, and the clear sky shined dimly in dark blue. Moonlight from a new moon illuminated over the trees and the water in the creek, painting everything with silver. Yang Guo watched the swift currents flushing down the creek path non-stop, his mind as clear as the sky. By then, he had understood the principles behind the flow of currents and mastered the techniques with the heavy sword. He knew that he had learned the entire sword art of the heavy sword and there was no more to learn. Even if the Demonic Swordsman could have come back to life, all he could have taught would still be the same. From now on as his inner energy grew, he would be able to used lighter swords, and eventually be able to wield a wooden sword like the heavy sword, but that would all be attributed to the advancement in his own abilities and skills. Regarding the sword art, this was as far as it would ever be."

    REGARDING THE SWORD ART, THIS WAS AS FAR AS IT WOULD EVER BE.

    um, i think that's all i need to say.

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    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    -- EDIT --

    one last thing i forgot to mention (it's in GJ's favor, for all of those mad at me for giving the verdict to YG):

    GJ's left/right hand technique. we know that with the LR hand technique, ZBT was pushing on YG, and only his sadpalm saved him...we also know that by the end of ROCH, ZBT concedes that he's not as good as GJ. it's a frightening thought to think that GJ could unleash HL18Z from one hand and some 9yin based technique in the other. it'd be difficult for YG to defend against, even with the iron sword...the only way out for YG is to use the Ancient Tomb's Qing gong, and really that's just running.

    so i say that in a life/death match, GJ would probably still win (though you can't really measure the power of YG's sadpalm, i mean the guy has a lot to be sad about...leaving GuGu behind, the fact that he's fighting his uncle Guo to the death, THE FACT THAT HE HAS ONE ARM).

    who knows? YG could just pull a dragonball and Z and smother GJ with raw power.

    it's an interesting battle, it really is...i don't think there's anyone more evenly matched in the whole JY universe.

    thoughts? i've posted to myself too much already.
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Must be school holidays in Cali atm. That's your 2c ? What a ripoff ! Your 3 posts contradict each other, which one of those are you going to stick to then ?
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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    but here's the final point that makes it all count: the dugu training that YG received made his internal energy incredibly profound -- by the end of ROCH, he was able to match palms with GLFW without losing any. I think that would put him at least on comparable grounds with GJ, if not even higher maybe
    Uh huh, and all GJ had was *just* QZ internal energy refined with 9 Yin. One which increases in power faster and faster as you train in it while the other was JUST a martial arts manual with such power that all the elite martial artists lusted after it, where single lines of the manual gave days and days of thought to a martial artists, where a quick glance yielded a method to improve QZ martial arts defeat Ancient Tomb martial arts, etc.

    So what have you proven? That YG got a huge power boost? Yeah, that's about it. This doesn't tell us anything about GJ's level.



    remember, GLFW's internal strength had been higher than GJ's through the whole book, as mentioned at the heroes banquet...the only reason why GJ was able to hold him back with 70% at the mongolian camp was because GLFW was competing with the other guys to kill GJ too.
    Wait, this made it EASIER for GJ to hold off GLFW? GLFW was held to the spot just like GJ at this point. If he yields any ground, GJ would start to overwhelm him. I'd think that the other guys would be doing their absolute best to hit GJ in the back and gain the title of The Guy Who Kill GJ.

    GLFW and GJ's internal energy is one of the stickier points in ROCH where JY himself states something, but from what he wrote it couldn't be true. GLFW at best would be at H7G and OYF's level at this point. In GJ and OYF's earlier duel, not only did GJ tie OYF with a disadvantage, he recovered faster and wasn't in as bad shape immediately afterwards.

    Again, all this shows is JY's internal inconsistencies and doesn't tell us how powerful GJ really is.


    YG wins. his ability to adapt using whatever skills he had at the time has been proved time and time again throughout the book...heavens sake, it's the theme of all his fights! there's no way GJ could win with a weapon...either dogbeating stick technique or the dugu's technique would take care of any weapon he could bring.
    Yes, it shows how he's able to defeat opponents who usually underestimate him using superior techniques that he's been lucky enough to have been taught (AT being black star to QZ, AT being unusual; Dog-beating stick, the Treasure of the Beggar's Clan, Dugu's Heavy Sword technique coupled with the Snake Bladders powerup).

    GJ isn't too shabby either, afaik, he picked up the Big Dipper formation pretty well and was able to fool an enemy into thinking he could use YYZ (when all he could do was imitate the motions from looking at it once). For a dumb guy, he has some bright flashes when it comes to martial arts and fights.


    Once more stickler.
    YG has always been able to defeat, or at least match, his enemies through either thorough analysis of their techniques (scissors vs. LMC)
    I'm sure that if HYS's student wasn't there with them, YG would've been beat down bad, scissors or not. He was simply too weak at that point of the story. The scissors came in handy later though.

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    Default Re: i have solved the neverending debate...YG vs. GJ

    Originally posted by sixdays
    but here's the final point that makes it all count: the dugu training that YG received made his internal energy incredibly profound -- by the end of ROCH, he was able to match palms with GLFW without losing any ground. i think that would put him at least on comparable grounds with GJ, if not even higher maybe. remember, GLFW's internal strength had been higher than GJ's through the whole book, as mentioned at the heroes banquet...the only reason why GJ was able to hold him back with 70% at the mongolian camp was because GLFW was competing with the other guys to kill GJ too. even with 9yin training, i doubt it would be TOO much higher than either YG or GLFW.
    during the hero gathering, GLFW's inner power was only slightly stronger then GJ. but GLFW have 20 year more to trained then GJ.
    So that would be
    20year inner power of GJ = 40 year inner power of GLFW
    as you can see that GJ'internal energy rate of increase is like 2x that of GLFW. after the 16 years his energy should well surpassed GLFW in term of internal energy

    also inner power can't really be measured in term of percentage %. Like at the end of LOCH, GJ capable of withstanding a palm from H7G at 100%. GJ's inner power at that point definitely is no where near his master, so he must of been at 120% to 130% or something like that. with his type of power he could push his power beyond the limit of his inner power.
    Last edited by TaiHan; 01-30-04 at 02:19 PM.

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    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    so who is better YG or GJ ??? You havent solved it at all, In the first posting, u seem to say YG would win, but in the third posting u imply that GJ would win.
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    Junior Member lowantong's Avatar
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    yup, this is just another never-ending GJ v. YG debate. readers have done a skill by skill analysis of each individual and there's still no conclusion. seems like both are pretty evenly matched.

    however, my opinion is that GJ has an edge in L/R hand technique. i don't see how YG can defend against that with one arm. if someone can come up with a solution in favor of YG, please let me know.

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    Moderator Noodles's Avatar
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    Originally posted by lowantong


    however, my opinion is that GJ has an edge in L/R hand technique. i don't see how YG can defend against that with one arm. if someone can come up with a solution in favor of YG, please let me know.
    Yang Guo could try to use the stance 'tou ni dai shui' from his palms of sadness and modify the style in different situations. Maybe.
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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    I guess in the new edition of LOCH, YG isn't the one that kills Jing Luan Guo Shi; I think this is Jin Yong's way of telling us readers that it's the stories that matter, not who's kung fu is better.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    He didn't kill Jin Lun in the previous revision either.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    Actually GJ and YG was really screwed at the gang up fight at the Mongolian camp. The only reason they manage to escape was because Jinlun and the others were literally fighting each other. There was no teamwork. All of them want to score the kill on GJ and even went as far as saving GJ's life from each other. Kublai Khan couldn't believe that the title reward was doing more harm than good. Plus YG changed sides to help GJ eventually, then even later Fung Mak Fung came out to help those two out. If they were all REALLY trying to kill GJ, he would've fallen no matter how powerful he is.

    From Noodles' translation:
    "Whenever Xiao Xiang Ziís rod came down towards Guo Jingís back, Fa Wang would allow Yang Guo to save Guo Jing. If Fa Wang used his wheel to smash down on Guo Jing, Xiao Xiang Zi would block his attack with his rod. If the two werenít fighting amongst each other, even if Yang Guo gave his life in trying to protect Guo Jing, Guo Jing would have been dead long ago."




    About YG's sad palms, imagine him being in suicidal heartbreak/emotional breakdown. Imagine the kind of power he can unleash.
    Last edited by SkineePanda; 01-30-04 at 08:22 PM.

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    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    thank you panda, you get my point. *tip of my hat*

    first of all, let me say that i'm sticking with YG on this one, if it's a life or death fight. however, i'll go with GJ if they're just dueling for fun, like when YG and ZBT fought.

    to chronoreverse:

    "Uh huh, and all GJ had was *just* QZ internal energy refined with 9 Yin. One which increases in power faster and faster as you train in it while the other was JUST a martial arts manual with such power that all the elite martial artists lusted after it, where single lines of the manual gave days and days of thought to a martial artists, where a quick glance yielded a method to improve QZ martial arts defeat Ancient Tomb martial arts, etc."

    first of all, the reason why GJ's internal power surged incredibly was because in LOCH, he used 9yin while recovering from his massive injury. without that injury, he wouldn't have progressed nearly as fast --- so we can count this time as a power boost much like YG's time at the DuGu cave. you're right --- 9yin is incredibly powerful, but don't forget that YG also has mastery over this technique. i'm not discounting at all the power of 9yin, in fact i think it's the best martial arts that JY ever created (arguably). however, the fact that "a glance" at 9yin allowed WCY to counter the AT techniques is underestimating WCY. it was his cleverness and martial genius that helped him here, not PURELY the 9yin.

    this is a cleverness that YG has in spades, and GJ cannot hope to match. point YG.

    "Wait, this made it EASIER for GJ to hold off GLFW? GLFW was held to the spot just like GJ at this point. If he yields any ground, GJ would start to overwhelm him. I'd think that the other guys would be doing their absolute best to hit GJ in the back and gain the title of The Guy Who Kill GJ."

    panda answered this point quite well without me having to say it, but i'll add in a few words anyway. the other 2 fighters were only slightly below GLFW's level, and they were all interfering with each other because each wanted to kill GJ for themselves. therefore, i believe that none of them would be fighting at full level and they would even be interfering with GLFW at this point. of course, they are held off by YG's sword techniques, which cancels out the two guys...so we see a 70% GJ vs. a distracted GLFW.

    looks like a moot point here, inconclusive about GJ's power.


    "GLFW at best would be at H7G and OYF's level at this point."

    "where's the proof of that?

    GJ isn't too shabby either, afaik, he picked up the Big Dipper formation pretty well and was able to fool an enemy into thinking he could use YYZ (when all he could do was imitate the motions from looking at it once). For a dumb guy, he has some bright flashes when it comes to martial arts and fights."

    cmon, how can you even compare mimicking YYZ with YG learning dogbeating stick technique in ONE DAY? also, GJ could never learn techniques like DGP. remember what HR said? this type of kungfu relies on the user figuring it out for themselves --- and while i think we all agree that GJ is a genius when it comes to LEARNING techniques, i don't think he's up to the task of making up his own. as to the big dipper, he took forever to learn that thing compared to YG, who picked up 10 formations of the 5 element trap in like...an hour. cmon, who's better at formations now?

    point YG.

    i'll give you the thing about LMC and the scissors because it doesn't really relate to YG vs. GJ...i mean they both surpass her tremendously, so she's a moot point.

    ----

    to taihan:

    "during the hero gathering, GLFW's inner power was only slightly stronger then GJ. but GLFW have 20 year more to trained then GJ."

    first of all, we don't now HOW much stronger GLFW's internal energy is than GJ...i mean, all JY said was that GLFW was superior in internal energy, while GJ's HL18Z was better in technique...therefore bringing him to a draw. to come to a draw while GJ is using HL18Z is pretty impressive, don't you think?

    this doesn't say anything about GJ's power, really...only that his palms are refined, and that's the strength i agreed on to begin with. moot point.


    "So that would be 20year inner power of GJ = 40 year inner power of GLFW. as you can see that GJ'internal energy rate of increase is like 2x that of GLFW. after the 16 years his energy should well surpassed GLFW in term of internal energy."

    that's unfair. like i mentioned before, GJ had a great boost in internal energy after training with 9yin WHILE he was injured. i seriously doubt that he would have that same rate of internal energy growth even from LOCH to ROCH, much less throughout the whole novel...otherwise, who could even touch the guy? in 10 years he could amass the internal energy of 40...so that would make him more powerful than the sweeper monk! and i don't think anyone agrees with that. i mean, i could easily say that YG went back to the cave every time it rained and trained in the river, thereby gaining IMPOSSIBLE levels of internal energy, right?

    "also inner power can't really be measured in term of percentage %. Like at the end of LOCH, GJ capable of withstanding a palm from H7G at 100%. GJ's inner power at that point definitely is no where near his master, so he must of been at 120% to 130% or something like that. with his type of power he could push his power beyond the limit of his inner power."

    thank you for bringing up that point, because it helps YG more than GJ. honestly, i agree that GJ's internal energy be slightly higher than YG at any given time. however, i think that YG's ingenuity and wealth of martial arts could overcome the brute strength of GJ. i mean, if HYS could stop YG's sad palms with flicking finger, then couldn't YG also learn the way to do this to HL18Z? granted, it's HYS's greatest move, and YG can't match him...but combined with some dugu/9yin techs, i think it's very believable that YG could find a way.

    point YG.

    ----------

    okay, that was just to stifle the YG haters and the "i love GJ" fan camp. onto the real problem:

    how the crap is YG gonna defend against GJ's L/R stance?

    here we go.

    1. Qing Gong

    we all know that YG's Qing Gong is superior to GJ...in fact, he's probably faster than anyone in the JY universe save DY. just as his quickness saved him from JLFW's brute strength (back before his arm was chopped off), YG could use his quickness to throw off GJ's aim/concentration/etc. remember, when GJ was fighting the super big dipper, he thought to himself that there's no way that he could counter something that he's never seen before when it's moving that quickly and precisely. granted, some 25 years have gone by in this scenario so he must have improved, i think his lack of improvisational skills would give YG a slight edge.

    a slight edge. no point for YG here.

    2. the sad palm

    like i said before, if they're duking it out for life/death, YG's got plenty of things to be sad about, like killing his beloved uncle Guo, leaving SLN, hurting GX's dad, THE FACT THAT HE LOST AN ARM...etc. i think the power unleashed could very well match up to even the HL18Z powered by GJ's (probable) superior inner strength. i think we'd see something much like when H7G and OYF were battling...just a crazy unleashing of power on both sides.

    i can't see YG being inferior to GJ on this one, because his one arm is just as powerful as GJ's two when it comes to sad palm vs. HL18Z. since they both have to unleash maximum power, YG has learned how to do that with one arm, while GJ only knows how to go 100% with both arms. one arm, two arms, doesn't make a difference here --- what's being compared is the power of the stance.

    point YG.

    if it's hard to imagine what i just said, think about DGZ when young gohan shoots out a massive fireball with one arm to fight cell. though cell is using both arms and gohan only one, it doesn't matter because they're using power to decide it, not extra techniques. i imagine if GJ tried to fight YG with one arm, he'd be screwed.

    3. age

    as everyone says on the board, GJ must be reaching his peak around 50, or the end of ROCH. by the definition of peak, it means that he can't get any better in terms of execution --- aka his body will never be as fast as it used to no matter how many techniques he learns. even if he learns some sort of supersonic kungfu, he wouldn't be as fast with it as he would have been if he was 50 when he learned it. get it? moving on...

    YG can only get better, seeing as he's half the age of GJ. considering that he's already comparable by the time that he's 30, what will happen as YG approaches 50? that's right...THE GOLDEN AGE OF YANG GUO, BABY...where he will continue to refine and develop techniques until he reaches his peak. now, GJ did this when he combined 9yin with HL18Z, improving it. how much more do you think YG will do that, given his wealth of knowledge? let's take a look.

    -toad stance
    -9yin
    -reverse 9yin
    -many amazing swordplay styles including: QZ, AT, jade maiden, 9yin based QZ made up by WCY, and all dugu techniques (considering iron sword is better than DG9J, and he can only get better from there)
    -dogbeating stick technique
    -jade flute
    -flicking fingers
    -a bit of iron palm
    -sad palm

    i keep getting the feeling that i left something out. if so, someone remind me. even with this list, though, your head HAS to be spinning with the possibilities of the different combinations that YG can come up with. some examples: 9yin powered flicking fingers, combining AT/QZ swordplay with dogbeating stick, SAD PALM TOAD STANCE (only that's a little far fetched, but you get the point.)
    considering he's more gifted than GJ in this area, it's not surprising that he could come up with some amazing technique to stop GJ, while GJ could only watch his *** get beat because he can't adapt quickly enough.

    VERDICT: the odds are in YG's favor. though GJ could possibly win just by virtue of his internal power being greater, YG's got every edge in terms of technique. winner?

    YANG GUO.
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    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    :: SIDENOTE ::

    i'm fully aware that the big dogs like ken cheng, athena, all you guys that are *sick* of this debate are just not bothering to reply. i applaud you guys, but i'd really like to get some veteran opinions on this. i mean, thanks to noodles we all have a better grasp of the actual novel now...and i've been readin some earlier arguments that i think are just way too influenced by andy lau/louis koo and the horrible adaptation writing of the TVB series (though i still love it).

    i really can't see YG losing...haha maybe it's cuz ROCH was my first JY story. loyalties, loyalties...

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    If Jin Yong do not write anything about who is better between GJ and YG in ROCH third edition, then basically the debate IS STILL a never-ending one

    ROCH was my first novel too, but after reading LOCH I like GJ better. I guess it is not the first love that matters, but the true love
    Last edited by rabadi; 01-30-04 at 10:14 PM.
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    first of all I'm not trying to find who is better. Just that you are underrating GJ too much.
    "GLFW at best would be at H7G and OYF's level at this point."

    "where's the proof of that?

    from noodle's translation
    When Da Er Ba examined their injuries, he thought that even his master Jin Lun Fa Wang didnít have such high internal energy to destroy the fiveís veins yet still keep them alive, the thing who did this must have the ability to move heaven and earth, it could only be a god or a demon. How would he know that Ou Yang Feng and Hong Qi Gongís internal energy was not below his masterís, with the two combined, the internal energy would be twice as strong as Jin Lun Fa Wangís.
    that's unfair. like i mentioned before, GJ had a great boost in internal energy after training with 9yin WHILE he was injured. i seriously doubt that he would have that same rate of internal energy growth even from LOCH to ROCH, much less throughout the whole novel...otherwise, who could even touch the guy? in 10 years he could amass the internal energy of 40...so that would make him more powerful than the sweeper monk! and i don't think anyone agrees with that. i mean, i could easily say that YG went back to the cave every time it rained and trained in the river, thereby gaining IMPOSSIBLE levels of internal energy, right?
    I didn't say anything about rate of growth at a linear rate. I believe there is a limit at the top which slow down the rate of increase in inner power. And the limit depend on the people itself. Also Jin Yong did said that between the LOCH and ROCH, GJ have collected an enormous amount of internal energy to equal OYF. At the end of LOCH, his power definitely cannot equal to OYF, but after 13 years his power is on para with OYF, but OYF's power also did increase. Althought his rate is slower because he might be reaching his limit.
    Also GLFW's inner power should also be close in reaching a limit, which would allow GJ to surpass him even more because GJ is not even close to his limit.

    Also that injury that he recovered from with the 9 Yin, barely increased his power.

    also GJ's power isn't all about brute force. The brute force is YG, w/ his heavy sword and sad palm. GJ's HL18Z have extreme softness and can absorb an opponent attack.
    Last edited by TaiHan; 01-30-04 at 10:20 PM.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    first of all, the reason why GJ's internal power surged incredibly was because in LOCH, he used 9yin while recovering from his massive injury. without that injury, he wouldn't have progressed nearly as fast --- so we can count this time as a power boost much like YG's time at the DuGu cave.
    Not even close to the power boost YG got from the snake bladders. GJ at the end of LOCH wouldn't be able to beat KCY. YG got a large enough boost that coupled with Heavy Iron Sword, he could beat KCY.

    The majority of GJ's internal energy development was between LOCH and ROCH, where he changed from a guy who could barely hold out 300 stances from a great, to one who could match a great palm for palm.

    9yin is incredibly powerful, but don't forget that YG also has mastery over this technique. i'm not discounting at all the power of 9yin, in fact i think it's the best martial arts that JY ever created (arguably).
    YG knew some of 9 Yin. But it's debatable whether he had the internal energy formula. And that doesn't matter since he never used it. YG's internal energy was ferocious because of the snake bladder power boost coupled with the 16 years of training against the waves.

    however, the fact that "a glance" at 9yin allowed WCY to counter the AT techniques is underestimating WCY. it was his cleverness and martial genius that helped him here, not PURELY the 9yin.
    Obviously WCY played a part here. But he couldn't figure a way to defeat Ancient Tomb until he took a peak at 9 Yin.


    this is a cleverness that YG has in spades, and GJ cannot hope to match. point YG.
    So WCY using 9 Yin to develop a technique to beat Ancient Tomb is cleverness, but GJ using 9 Yin to take HL18P to a level beyond H7G's isn't? Double standards.

    this is a cleverness that YG has in spades, and GJ cannot hope to match. point YG.
    Yes, of course YG is more clever than GJ, but in martial arts ingenuity, GJ isn't too far behind.

    Perhaps YG could trick GJ to lower his guard or something though.


    panda answered this point quite well without me having to say it, but i'll add in a few words anyway. the other 2 fighters were only slightly below GLFW's level, and they were all interfering with each other because each wanted to kill GJ for themselves. therefore, i believe that none of them would be fighting at full level and they would even be interfering with GLFW at this point. of course, they are held off by YG's sword techniques, which cancels out the two guys...so we see a 70% GJ vs. a distracted GLFW.
    panda's comments are actually out of context. I'm referring to one specific scene where GJ is already matching palms with GLFW. Additionally, at this point GJ was attacked and HIT by another one of the fighters. Generally, if you're matching palms with someone, and get disturbed, you immediately go into a huge disadvantage. GJ took a severe injury (as he should). Yet, he still managed to continue for a bit longer.

    In any case, at this point, the mongol fighters weren't blocking each other's strikes. Thus panda's argument is moot since that's what he was saying the fighters were interfering with each other.


    "where's the proof of that?
    GJ matched OYF with a disadvantage. Therefore GJ is equal to OYF at the very least.

    OYF and H7G matched each other closely enough that both died after the internal energy duel. Therefore H7G and OYF are very close to each other.

    GJ held off 70% of GLFW's attack with one palm.
    GJ matched palms with GLFW and took a few steps back while GLFW felt pain in his chest. This is despite the fact that GLFW supposedly has higher internal energy.
    I won't draw the conclusion, but it's likely that they're at least close to each other.

    By the law of transitivity, H7G and OYF should then also be close to GLFW's level.

    qed


    cmon, how can you even compare mimicking YYZ with YG learning dogbeating stick technique in ONE DAY? also, GJ could never learn techniques like DGP. remember what HR said? this type of kungfu relies on the user figuring it out for themselves --- and while i think we all agree that GJ is a genius when it comes to LEARNING techniques, i don't think he's up to the task of making up his own. as to the big dipper, he took forever to learn that thing compared to YG, who picked up 10 formations of the 5 element trap in like...an hour. cmon, who's better at formations now?
    Eh? I was showing how GJ has some clever flashes of his own too. I don't know what you were thinking.

    In any case, all kungfu requires some degree of understanding from the user too. Stances are dead and inanimate, but the practicioner is alive and flowing.

    And what does learning a technique have to do with a fight at all? So YG can learn quick, does it matter when GJ has already master his techniques?

    Besides, GJ was the fastest learner of HL18P ever (unless XF learned it even faster, possible)


    first of all, we don't now HOW much stronger GLFW's internal energy is than GJ...i mean, all JY said was that GLFW was superior in internal energy, while GJ's HL18Z was better in technique...therefore bringing him to a draw. to come to a draw while GJ is using HL18Z is pretty impressive, don't you think?

    this doesn't say anything about GJ's power, really...only that his palms are refined, and that's the strength i agreed on to begin with. moot point.
    Uh-huh. You do know that HL18P's power is directly related to GJ's internal energy right?

    that's unfair. like i mentioned before, GJ had a great boost in internal energy after training with 9yin WHILE he was injured. i seriously doubt that he would have that same rate of internal energy growth even from LOCH to ROCH, much less throughout the whole novel...otherwise, who could even touch the guy
    I've already shown above why this isn't correct.

    thank you for bringing up that point, because it helps YG more than GJ. honestly, i agree that GJ's internal energy be slightly higher than YG at any given time. however, i think that YG's ingenuity and wealth of martial arts could overcome the brute strength of GJ. i mean, if HYS could stop YG's sad palms with flicking finger, then couldn't YG also learn the way to do this to HL18Z? granted, it's HYS's greatest move, and YG can't match him...but combined with some dugu/9yin techs, i think it's very believable that YG could find a way.
    No he couldn't. If he could, he'd have done that in the final fight against GLFW instead of almost losing, falling into despair and finally knocking GLFW back with his powered up Sad Palm.

    And YG almost completely gave up ingenuity by that time. His two greatest techniques were Sad Palms and Heavy Iron Sword, BOTH of which were direct strike techniques designed to overwhelm using brute force.

    In any case, JY has a tendency (except in the anomaly SoD) to emphasize simplicity over complexity, where simple defeats complex.


    like i said before, if they're duking it out for life/death, YG's got plenty of things to be sad about, like killing his beloved uncle Guo, leaving SLN, hurting GX's dad, THE FACT THAT HE LOST AN ARM...etc. i think the power unleashed could very well match up to even the HL18Z powered by GJ's (probable) superior inner strength. i think we'd see something much like when H7G and OYF were battling...just a crazy unleashing of power on both sides.
    Sad Palms was designed specifically to fight with one Palm. So what does this mean? It will match HL18P in raw power. So the only difference? Internal energy.

    i can't see YG being inferior to GJ on this one, because his one arm is just as powerful as GJ's two when it comes to sad palm vs. HL18Z. since they both have to unleash maximum power, YG has learned how to do that with one arm, while GJ only knows how to go 100% with both arms. one arm, two arms, doesn't make a difference here --- what's being compared is the power of the stance.
    Gee, I supposed GJ's L/R technique doesn't mean anything. I mean, he's just fought several times against powerful opponents with one arm. It can't count for anything. Holding off dozens of Taoist combining their power with one arm isn't anything at all. Holding off 70% of GLFW's two palms with one palm didn't mean anything either.

    if it's hard to imagine what i just said, think about DGZ when young gohan shoots out a massive fireball with one arm to fight cell. though cell is using both arms and gohan only one, it doesn't matter because they're using power to decide it, not extra techniques. i imagine if GJ tried to fight YG with one arm, he'd be screwed.
    Wait didn't you just say earlier that it's likely that GJ has better internal energy that YG? Doesn't that mean, by your analogy, that GJ should win?

    as everyone says on the board, GJ must be reaching his peak around 50, or the end of ROCH. by the definition of peak, it means that he can't get any better in terms of execution --- aka his body will never be as fast as it used to no matter how many techniques he learns. even if he learns some sort of supersonic kungfu, he wouldn't be as fast with it as he would have been if he was 50 when he learned it. get it? moving on...
    And yet, you haven't shown anything to the degree of power GJ was at age 50. We're only using examples of GJ at around 30.


    YG can only get better, seeing as he's half the age of GJ. considering that he's already comparable by the time that he's 30, what will happen as YG approaches 50? that's right...THE GOLDEN AGE OF YANG GUO, BABY...where he will continue to refine and develop techniques until he reaches his peak. now, GJ did this when he combined 9yin with HL18Z, improving it. how much more do you think YG will do that, given his wealth of knowledge? let's take a look.
    Yeah, 20 years of bliss with XLN. He's gonna be spending that time refining his martial arts. Suuurrrreee.

    And most of his martial arts that he knew before are useless because of his loss of his arm. That' why he developed Sad Palms. Sad Palms is the culmunation of his knowledge.



    So in the end you still haven't proven anything beyond what was already shown before. We still can't say who's definitely stronger.

  18. #18
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    Cool More comments

    quote: 20year inner power of GJ = 40 year inner power of GLFW
    as you can see that GJ'internal energy rate of increase is like 2x that of GLFW. after the 16 years his energy should well surpassed GLFW in term of internal energy
    .
    --- Most/normal increases go by a "natural curve" (aka reaches an asymptote), unless maybe you are gys like DuguQB, SweeperMonk, DuanYu, Xu Zhu and the three CareFree elders?
    .
    .
    .
    quote: Regarding the sword art, this was as far as it would ever be."
    REGARDING THE SWORD ART, THIS WAS AS FAR AS IT WOULD EVER BE.
    .
    --- JY was refering to the "IronSword" art, not the sword art as a whole. The Way of the Sword is an unending search for perfection/enlightenment, or should.

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    i know how to solve the never-ending debate.
    either one admit defeat.
    or the both shake hand and said it is a tie.
    because to reach the highest level of martial art is not to get too catch up in martial art.
    if we get too catch up in this debate, we won't ever reach the highest level in whatever it is
    If we can do this we might as well surpassed GJ and YG. I think people like Atena, Kenny, etc have reached it

  20. #20
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    Default Re: More comments

    Originally posted by Anonymous
    --- Most/normal increases go by a "natural curve" (aka reaches an asymptote), unless maybe you are gys like DuguQB, SweeperMonk, DuanYu, Xu Zhu and the three CareFree elders?
    I have already stated that up there. on my other post. Just that GJ is not even close to his limit at the age of 36. while GLFW is about there.
    Last edited by TaiHan; 01-30-04 at 10:46 PM.

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