Should the Golden Wheel Monk and Kau Cheen Yan count as Greats of the L/ROCH Era?

[Ken Cheng]

On the basis of their martial arts abilities (not their characters), should the Golden Wheel Monk and Kau Cheen Yan count as Greats?

[SkineePanda]

Since I have only read up to what Noodle's translated I dare not say but there's only limited spots for Greats. North, South, East, West, and Central. Maybe they should add like Northeast Huang Rong, Northwest Xiao Longnu, Southwest Jinlun Fawang, Southeast Kau Cheenyan since they're lesser fighters or maybe Jinlun is on par.

[superboy]

But it won't sounds cool anymore with so many titles.

[Ken Cheng]

Maybe they could be put on a waiting list: if one of the earlier Greats croaks, the one geographically closest to him can fill in.

[LuNaR]

what was golden wheel monk's best move?

[ToOn99]

JLFW might be qualified to be a great and QQR ??? I dont think he had reached great level already, even might be 1-2 level below the great I supposed.

[Athena]

I always wondered why the series portrayed him being weaker than the other 4 Greats. Because during several encounters Guo Jing had with Qiu Qianren he thought that Qiu Qianren was absolutely not inferior to his teacher Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng etc.
It could be true that 25 years ago during the first tournament he was not ready yet to face them (the other 4). But years later he proved not be inferior to them. Zhou Botong reached a draw with him in the beginning. It was after Zhou used his dual hands technique, he gained the advantage on Qiu Qianren. However when competing in lightness martial arts he was certainly superior to Zhou Botong. I mean Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Zhou Botong had a little match of lightness martial arts near the city of Linan, it was Zhou Botong at the head and Huang and Ouyang closely behind him. I see that as Zhou Botong being just a bit better in that field than East Heretic and West Venom. However Qiu Qianren outran Zhou Botong, meaning he should better than Ouyang and Huang Yaoshi in that particular martial arts skill. That is just my mere speculation, however it was a fact that South Emperor's art of lightness martial arts was not as good as Qiu. See Roch Chapter 30.

Furthermore he fought Jinlun GUOSHI for an entire day before getting seriously injured. That is highly impressive! And especially when considered that Jinlun GUOSHI had mastered the 10th level of his elephant dragon sutra....something..something skill. (Because Jinlun GUOSHI set foot in the central plains again after he had mastered that 10th level, so I am quite positive that Qiu Qianren/Ci'en encountered Jinlun at level 10 of that skill).
Also it was mentioned in ROCH chapter 30 (third edition), that South Emperor MIGHT BE ABLE to defeat Qiu Qianren after a long fight in which he used the combination Yiyang Finger and Xiantian Gong.
By these examples I find Qiu Qianren to be very qualified to be a martial arts experts in the level of the Greats.
Personality wise.......that is a different matter.

[Raden Wijaya]

JLFW was at the same level as 4 greats. QQR internal energy maybe yes but his martial art skill is slightly below.
Iron Palm was not as great as Hap Ma Gong, IYZ, or 18 Dragon Palm.
If He learn 9 Yin maybe he could be the same level as the 4 greats.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Raden Wijaya
JLFW was at the same level as 4 greats. QQR internal energy maybe yes but his martial art skill is slightly below.
Iron Palm was not as great as Hap Ma Gong, IYZ, or 18 Dragon Palm.
If He learn 9 Yin maybe he could be the same level as the 4 greats.

The iron palms of Qiu Qianren were an impressive type of martial arts not inferior to any of the famous skills of the other 4 Greats. This is mentioned in the novel, both Qiu Qianren and his teacher Shangguan Jiannan had added a lot of magnifencent changes, techniques to the Iron Palm Style.
The Iron Palms of Qiu Qiaren were renowned and were placed together next to Yiyang Finger, The 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms, Hama Gong and the Divine Snap.
Technique wise Qiu Qianren is as good as the other four. When it came to being fierce and impressive the Iron Palms could not match up with the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms. However the techniques of the Iron Palms were more refined and ingenious than the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms. See chapter 32 of LOCH.

[Charlieboy]

when QQR fought GWM, was GWM already up to level 10 of his dragon-elephant bor gung? If he was, that would suggest QQR was maybe only marginally below the rest of the Greats and YG -

but had QQR during his many years under the guidance of 1Deng actually have much opportunity to truly advance his martial arts or was he only afforded the chance to maintain his level from LOCH and only cultivate a higher pool of inner energy?

that is assuming that he didnt experience any deterioration through ROCH

[TaiHan]

I not sure QQR is cconsider a great or not, but I'm for sure to put him as an equal to the GLFW. It took GLFW an entire day to beat or kill him, and he was still live for awhile.

Iron Palm is pretty powerful. HL18Z is only an aggressive, unstable, yang energy. While the Iron Palm is more of a control, stable, conservative, yang energy.
Sometime I even think HL18Z is evil martial art due to it aggressiveness. Like some style evil martial art are really radical in power and could cost practicer's life. If the practicer does not have enough inner power, he would be injury or even die from practicing it.

[PJ]

I don't like the term GUOSHI at all. So what should the ENglish be, Golden Wheen TEACHER/PROTECTOR/GUARDIAN?

Anyhoo, I am all for both being Greats. There's bound to be slight discrepencies between power among Greats. I personally think HYS and YD are superior to the two dead Greats by end of ROCH, so does that mean HQG and OYF shouldn't be counted as Greats? Not really. They're still Greats even though they are slightly below HYS and YD (my 2 cents). Thus, QQR should be a Great even if he's slightly below Golden Wheel TEACHER/PROTECTOR/GUARDIAN.

[Temujin]

Since there are only 5 Great spots available, then the competition is very tight, however we have Guo Jing, Yang Guo and ZBT already occuping 3 spots.

This left us with 2 spots left with a number of qualified candidates.

- QQR
- GWM
- HR
- XLN
- HYS
- YD

It's a tough competition between QQR, GWM, HYS, YD. It's even a lot harder among HYS, YD and GWM, although QQR is still probably equal or slightly less them the 3 of them, since GWM finally beat him and HYS or YD are about equal to GWM.

Yep, GWM could probably be up there, just too bad he was already killed by YG's sad palm by luck at the end of ROCH.

I think if we're talking about the original Greats, then there is a big chance that QQR (assuming that he has improved in ROCH) and definitely GWM will replace H7Q and AYF just before they died.

[SkineePanda]

About Jinlun's Dragon Elephant skill, just what description the novel gave of it?

[TaiHan]

It is just an internal energy cultivation

here is the site
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...&threadid=5181

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Athena
I always wondered why the series portrayed him being weaker than the other 4 Greats.

LOCH2003 is the worst, the series portrayed QQR being unable to fight ZBT at all. At least it should show how QQR trying to put up his best fight against ZBT, instead of just getting tossed around without any resistance.

[Raden Wijaya]

I'm not sure QQR is cconsider a great or not, but I'm for sure to put him as an equal to the GLFW. It took GLFW an entire day to beat or kill him, and he was still live for awhile.

Was GLFW get seriously injured (or at least get injured) after beating QQR for an entire day? If he was, QQR can be count as Greats.

[superboy]

Well, although QQR is probably slightly below the Greats, his level is probably still inferior to them. All the Great's level are pretty much th same. And even if they fought for one day and one night, there probably won't be any results. So although QQR might qualify, he is probably still slightly inferior to the others.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Raden Wijaya
Was GLFW get seriously injured (or at least get injured) after beating QQR for an entire day? If he was, QQR can be count as Greats.

I don't think I said that QQR was a great did I?

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by Athena
I always wondered why the series portrayed him being weaker than the other 4 Greats. Because during several encounters Guo Jing had with Qiu Qianren he thought that Qiu Qianren was absolutely not inferior to his teacher Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng etc.
It could be true that 25 years ago during the first tournament he was not ready yet to face them (the other 4). But years later he proved not be inferior to them. Zhou Botong reached a draw with him in the beginning. It was after Zhou used his dual hands technique, he gained the advantage on Qiu Qianren. However when competing in lightness martial arts he was certainly superior to Zhou Botong. I mean Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Zhou Botong had a little match of lightness martial arts near the city of Linan, it was Zhou Botong at the head and Huang and Ouyang closely behind him. I see that as Zhou Botong being just a bit better in that field than East Heretic and West Venom. However Qiu Qianren outran Zhou Botong, meaning he should better than Ouyang and Huang Yaoshi in that particular martial arts skill. That is just my mere speculation, however it was a fact that South Emperor's art of lightness martial arts was not as good as Qiu. See Roch Chapter 30.

Furthermore he fought Jinlun GUOSHI for an entire day before getting seriously injured. That is highly impressive! And especially when considered that Jinlun GUOSHI had mastered the 10th level of his elephant dragon sutra....something..something skill. (Because Jinlun GUOSHI set foot in the central plains again after he had mastered that 10th level, so I am quite positive that Qiu Qianren/Ci'en encountered Jinlun at level 10 of that skill).
Also it was mentioned in ROCH chapter 30 (third edition), that South Emperor MIGHT BE ABLE to defeat Qiu Qianren after a long fight in which he used the combination Yiyang Finger and Xiantian Gong.
By these examples I find Qiu Qianren to be very qualified to be a martial arts experts in the level of the Greats.
Personality wise.......that is a different matter.

Questions:-
1) The examples given above, isn't the ZBT-OYF-HYS's more of a stamina race and therefore an indication of inner strength, while ZBT initially chased QQR into mongolia and was chased back by QQR into the central plains. If it's so, wouldn't the comparison by wayward?

Even if QQR's lightness kungfu is better (I don't know, maybe), is it going to make a difference if QQR fought with any of the greats? i.e. is it going to make him win?

2) Regarding QQR vs GLFW, when the other greats fought with GLFW, how well did they fare? (If memory serves, at best light, GLFW can be seen as equal to the greats)

Whereas how does the greats fare when battling QQR in either the end of LOCH or ROCH?