DG9J At its highest level

[linghuchong]

DUgu 9 Jian has always been a martial art that is complicated to me, so im hoping so one can fill me in

We know that DG9J has nine stances, General Index Stance, Sword-breaking Stance, Knife-breaking Stance, Spear-breaking Stance, Mace-breaking Stance, Whip-breaking Stance, Palm-breaking Stance, and Missile-breaking Stance and Energy (aka as Qi)-breaking Stance.

If one has Fully mastarded DG9J, then he/she has mastarded the 9 breaking stances, hence this should mean that mastering all 9 stances means being able to break any move an oppenent gives (The 9 stances include all the martial arts that can be performed), if one can break anything , than does this mean that one can beat everyone?

Ok, i think i've confused myself, can someone correct me

[ChronoReverse]

Not really, if someone has mastered some mysterious martial art that increases one's speed to a level where he/she ( ) can attack you four or five times before you can attack once, even mastery of DG9J isn't going to save you. A large part of it depends on the user too.

[trizz251]

wow this Dugu 9 stances sounds cool, but what book did it come from is it a JY book, a GL book or someone else.

[Ren Wo Xing]

DuGu Jiu Jian can be found in the Jing Yong novel, "Xiao Ao Jiang Hu", translated variously as Smiling Proud Wanderer, Laughing Proudly at the World (the most literal translation), and State of Divinity.

You can find a translation by Lanny Lin here if you can't read Chinese.

www.lannyland.com/wanderer

[rabadi]

No offence intended to anyone, but if DG9J still has stances, couldn't some martial arts geniuses come up with DG9J-breaking Stance(s)?

[philip]

well, technically, dugu qiu bai claimed that he never got beaten....

so if you've really become a master of dugu 9 sword, by theory, you shouldn't be beaten by theory. but theory is not always actual, cuz as someone said before, if the opponent's is faster and you can't break them before they get to you...then ur screwed. but that's the individual's problem, not the technique itself.

[ChronoReverse]

Just because the inventor has never been beaten, doesn't mean the art itself can't be beaten, regardless of whether you master it or not. I can be the supreme master of the Solitary Finger Eye Poke and never have it fail for me regardless of whoever I try it on. But if someone else also masters this technique, he/she may still not be able to poke ANYONE'S eye out like I can for a variety of other reason (for example, maybe the person isn't fast enough despite having perfect technique and timing).

In any case, DG9J doesn't make a claim to be invincible; it just claims to have the method to "break" any other stance.


To draw a parallel, Ancient Tomb martial arts "break" QZ martial arts, but even XLN wouldn't be able to truly beat QCJ even though she does have the techniques pat down. Later in the novel, with a bit more experience and more internal energy (and L/R technique so she can use the final section by herself), she could, but certainly not when she first "mastered" the lower levels of Ancient Tomb.

[ruroshin]

Originally posted by rabadi
No offence intended to anyone, but if DG9J still has stances, couldn't some martial arts geniuses come up with DG9J-breaking Stance(s)?

Haha thats funny, ok I create a new technique called R2J (Ruroshin 2 Jian) 1st stance is DG9J-breaking stance, 2nd is Others-break stance. Now I am invincible...in theory.

[philip]

well actually, ancient tomb martial arts itself does not break QZ...it's only the jade lady skills.

[Han Solo]

When mastered, DG9J ought not to contain any stances.

[sixdays]

the point of DG9J is to exploit flaws in every style of fighting there is. for example, in the projectile-breaking stance, the flaw is that you can only attack once with a projectile --- therefore, the break is to knock all of the projectiles down (sounds easy, but can only be done with ridiculous speed if using a sword). therefore, the DG9J in theory can defeat every STYLE of fighting...

however, if you come up against a fighter w/out syle (i.e. YG's iron sword) then it will come down to the fighter's individual ability. for example, LWC would get defeated by YG because even though LWC has DG9J, YG has a technique that LWC cannot exploit, as well as a much higher internal energy.

this kinda thing is much easier to understand when you read the actual part in the book, so i point you to chapter 10 in smiling proud wanderer for a thorough treatment of DG9J. here's the link:


smiling proud wanderer ch. 10

if you like it, i suggest you read all that lanny's got...especially in later chapters, you'll see DG9J a lot in action.

[superboy]

Even if the opponent uses stances and techniques, DG9J won't be able to be any good if you come across a stronger fighter that is out of your league. We'll know what happens if LWC goes up against high class fighters that uses stances all the time like XF, XYS, JMZ, MRB, HYS, H7G, etc.

[sixdays]

Originally posted by superboy
Even if the opponent uses stances and techniques, DG9J won't be able to be any good if you come across a stronger fighter that is out of your league. We'll know what happens if LWC goes up against high class fighters that uses stances all the time like XF, XYS, JMZ, MRB, HYS, H7G, etc.

true. however, we're looking at DG9J as a martial art here, not at LHC the martial artist (though the comparison is inevitable). the point is, the theory behind DG9J is capable of breaking any technique established in a school, because its theory relies on finding weaknesses in rigidity. when we look at characters like XF, the comparison is a bit unfair, because his supreme technique's focus (i'm talking about HL18Z here) is the release of internal energy. DG9J's focus is in strategy. lemme put it this way: XF is shaq, and LHC is like jason kidd or something. now, no matter how much strategy jason kidd has, he's going to get squashed by the natural talent of shaq --- in the same way, LHC's greatness in technique will still be squashed because he cannot match XF's natural talent. however, imagine if shaq could handle the ball like jason kidd...

that's what DG9J could do for a naturally talented fighter. in other words, it would improve on his technique tremendously --- and insofar as technique is related to total fighting power, DG9J will give an advantage to a naturally gifted fighter. remember, even with NO INTERNAL ENERGY AT ALL (in other words, he's no better than you or me in martial arts development) LHC is still able to defeat many of the greatest fighters in his generation by using DG9J alone. (i'm referring to when he meets xiang wentian and is attacked by pretty much most of wulin).

[ChronoReverse]

Erm, what makes you think LHC doesn't have a great deal of talent? Perhaps he's not as talented in delivering raw force and in overall fierceness, but what makes you think he isn't talented in martial arts?

[philip]

Erm, what makes you think LHC doesn't have a great deal of talent? Perhaps he's not as talented in delivering raw force and in overall fierceness, but what makes you think he isn't talented in martial arts?

of course LHC has plenty of talent...it takes a lot talent to actually be able to find an enemy's flaws and find a direct way to break an opponent's stance. But unfortunately, he's sick and dying for more than half the story.

Even if the opponent uses stances and techniques, DG9J won't be able to be any good if you come across a stronger fighter that is out of your league. We'll know what happens if LWC goes up against high class fighters that uses stances all the time like XF, XYS, JMZ, MRB, HYS, H7G, etc.

who said LWC was a master of dugu 9 swords? FCY said it would take some 10 (or 20?) years before you could become a master. And i don't think he's ever used the breaking qi stance before, has he?

therefore, the DG9J in theory can defeat every STYLE of fighting...

yes of course!. But theory is theory...
unfortunately, i don't think we can actually see theory in reality, b/c to find is fault is not always that easy. I mean, stuff like XL18Z is very hard to find a way to break. OYF spend day and night trying to find fault of dog beating stick... So in reality, person using dugu 9 sword may not always win, but in theory, he is indeed able to find the fault (unless there is no fault ) , he would win.

[sixdays]

Originally posted by ChronoReverse
Erm, what makes you think LHC doesn't have a great deal of talent? Perhaps he's not as talented in delivering raw force and in overall fierceness, but what makes you think he isn't talented in martial arts?

you just proved my point. i didn't mean that LHC WASN'T talented...i just said he doesn't have the natural gifts of people like XF and GJ. those dudes were bears. you have to agree that if LHC never learned DG9J then he would have never been great in the wulin world.

Originally posted by philip
who said LWC was a master of dugu 9 swords? FCY said it would take some 10 (or 20?) years before you could become a master. And i don't think he's ever used the breaking qi stance before, has he?

agreed. however, LHC's reactions have been consistently quick throughout the whole novel; i think his ability to access situations really gives him an advantage in learning DG9J. it's like they were made for each other.

So in reality, person using dugu 9 sword may not always win, but in theory, he is indeed able to find the fault (unless there is no fault :eek , he would win.

unless there is no fault, huh? sound's like YG's (and DGQB's, naturally) iron/wooden/grass/your mom/pretty much anything if you're good enough sword technique to me.

[superboy]

Originally posted by sixdays
true. however, we're looking at DG9J as a martial art here, not at LHC the martial artist (though the comparison is inevitable). the point is, the theory behind DG9J is capable of breaking any technique established in a school, because its theory relies on finding weaknesses in rigidity. when we look at characters like XF, the comparison is a bit unfair, because his supreme technique's focus (i'm talking about HL18Z here) is the release of internal energy. DG9J's focus is in strategy. lemme put it this way: XF is shaq, and LHC is like jason kidd or something. now, no matter how much strategy jason kidd has, he's going to get squashed by the natural talent of shaq --- in the same way, LHC's greatness in technique will still be squashed because he cannot match XF's natural talent. however, imagine if shaq could handle the ball like jason kidd...

that's what DG9J could do for a naturally talented fighter. in other words, it would improve on his technique tremendously --- and insofar as technique is related to total fighting power, DG9J will give an advantage to a naturally gifted fighter. remember, even with NO INTERNAL ENERGY AT ALL (in other words, he's no better than you or me in martial arts development) LHC is still able to defeat many of the greatest fighters in his generation by using DG9J alone. (i'm referring to when he meets xiang wentian and is attacked by pretty much most of wulin).

Generally, DG9J have problem solving theory behind it. Is it neccessary better than other advance techniques and stances such as the dog beating stick? It serves as an advantage sometimes, but might not if the person is up against some type of advance techniques and spent half the time looking fow flaws. What happens if the person don't have a pattern to his attacks or don't show weaknesses. Weaknesses can still be found even by a perosn that uses techniques.

[sixdays]

the theory of DG9J is that there are flaws in ALL established martial arts. therefore, it's not really up to the user whether he shows his flaws or not; it's "built-in" to the kungfu already. case in point: the rock wall in the cave where the 5 sword schools' every move was defeated. however, the key here is the ability to SEE those flaws --- if LHC can't see them, then DG9J is really useless because as you said, he will always be lookin for flaws and get his butt kicked because he can't find any.

DG9J, then, is not a martial art for everybody --- it's for people like YG, LHC, HYS that incorporate a lot of strategy into their fighting rather than relying on the strength of their techniques alone. it's the ability to adapt and spot flaws that is a prerequisite for DG9J. that's why FCY was hesitant to teach DG9J to LHC at first, because he wasn't sure that LHC was smart enough to be up to the task.

DG9J is a chessplayer's kungfu. as to whether it could beat established techniques like dogbeating stick, i'm not sure. whether DG9J can defeat certain kungfu is really based mostly on the user, and to a lesser extent the quality of the kungfu that the fighter is up against. for example, it's probably way harder to beat dogbeating stick than it is to defeat QZ swordplay. however, it's up to the user's brilliance as to whether he can see the flaws in the kungfu.

we DO know that dogbeating stick has flaws, because OYF found them in ROCH; however, it took him forever. granted, he was crazy, but he still figured out the counter for the most brilliant 36th move of dogbeating stick. therefore, it figures that DGQB could figure out a way to beat dogbeating stick with DG9J, seeing as he was the most brilliant swordsman in all of the JY universe.

[superboy]

This is really fast strategy against observant. I won't say neither is more advance since it depends on the user too much. But there might actually be some stances that are almost flwless. Such as the teamed up Jade Sword of YG and XLN. These techniques may pose the user of DG9J some problems.

[sixdays]

true, but in the end it again boils down to one thing: the user of DG9J. the theory of DG9J itself would be better than jade maiden, but the practicer might not be as good as the combined strength of YG and XLN. just as jade maiden relies on the practicers to love and rely on one another in a romantic way, DG9J relies on the user being able to read flaws quickly. it's just what the kungfu asks of the user.

remember, too, that jade maiden was designed without "killing" or finishing moves; DG9J has no such restrictions. i'd think that DG9J would still have no problems.