ZWJ- trapped in the past?

[fastclock]

Wow, that's a big post by greendestiny.
I like your analysis of ZWJ - very deep and thorough.
I'll keep it somewhere in my hard drive

Guo Jing has the benefit of appearing later in ROCH. More mature. Less hesitant or slow in thinking - but more powerful and heroic. That increases his character points. ZWJ does not have the benefit of appearing when older. At the end of HSDS, he is only in the early 20s. Not the common age of being sensible and decisive.

ZWJ certainly is less decisive than other JY heroes. He uses his feelings. He over-respects Xie Xun. He couldn't really decide on the girl he loves until his trip with ZM to Shaolin. But to be fair to him, the girls make it harder for him - and the one he's most attracted to is an enemy.

[PJ]

I don't think in this case it matters whether Wuji appears later because of his retirement. And, well, not everyone is heroic material like Guo Jing; this is good diversity. so let's give Wuji a break for now.

[Anonymous]

Lava: In my opinion, Wuji has a [...] Oedipus Complex.
--- Agreed. "In the shadow of the parent" tone is set by GuoXiang in chap1. Wuji as well as the rest of the girls experience this too. (ie. ZZR and Mieju. The scarred girl and her father. ZM and her father/family. etc)
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TaiH: They were hero who doesn't want to deal with the problem of mankind, so they decided to live a life without people and their problem. They were tired of it.
--- This could also mean that they dont want to force their beliefs on the people and just let the people come to enlightenment on the people's own terms.
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HanS: 1) Why did he want to marry ZZR?
2) Did he love ZZR?
3) Did ZZR love ZWJ?
4) If ZWJ loved ZZR, is leaving ZZR at the altar, the worst thing that he can do? i.e. did it totally made ZZR into the monster that she became?
5) If ZWJ did not love ZZR, is proposing to ZZR the worst thing that he can do to himself or others?
6) Should you marry the one htat you love the most, or the most convenient to marry?
--- 1) I think GDestiny is correct that the marriage to ZZR attempts to "mirror" the tragic marriage by Wuji's parents.
--- 4) Based on his parents fate, ZWJ marrying ZZR will be the worst fate (ie. emotional death?). ZM seems to show ZWJ another path than his parents fate. ZZR's monster visage may be seen as a temporary(?) "fit" of being rejected (ie. outward appearance of inner turmoil).
--- 5) He loves ZZR, but answering your question: his proposing to ZZR is not the worst thing, the worst thing is not to resolve the dilemma he got himself into.
--- 6) I suggest you try a few "virtual" marriages to find out. RPG baby! Yeah.
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To GDestiny: Wow, its like reading a chapter of JY novel. Good stuff.
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More HSDS comments:
1. Wudang "mirrors" QuanZheng and E-mei mirrors AncientTomb. Interesting you gys compare Wudang heroes and QuanZheng seven.
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2. [Forgot reasons, again. <dang>]

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by green destiny
Laviathan, thank you for welcoming me in the forum. To comment on your stand: I don’t agree with you at that point that” ZWJ was a silly little man without principles and backbone”.

You misunderstood. I said:"To many of us , Wuji is a silly little man without principles and a backbone." i.e. His actions sometimes make people think that he has no principles. I personally think that Wuji is a very righteous person with his own values and principles, just that I often do not agree with the way he handle things doesn't mean he is wrong.

Guo Jing has his flaws as well of course. I can understand that he is still angry with Ouyang Feng, so in the end of ROCH only Yang Guo and Dragon Girl paid respect to Ouyang's tomb. We can't expect Guo Jing to do the same.

Guo Jing being against the love between Yang Guo and Dragon Girl can also be explained this way: he loves Yang Guo as his own son, and he does not want him to do "wrong" (Guo Jing's own words). When Yang Guo replied: "I am not wrong, I haven't done anything wrong... I didn't harm anyone!" GuoJing was speechless. To him, life and the way one should live has always been simple... He just cannot grasp the complexity of Yang Guo's character and life.

The thing I really disagree with Guo Jing is the scene in which he wanted to chop off Guo Fu's arm. She made a mistake and should be punished of course, but chopping her arm off doesn't help in any way. Furthermore, the reason why Guo Fu could do such a thing is really because the way she was raised/spoiled. Her lack of proper guidance is the mistake of her parents. But Guo Jing only thought of punishing her based on his own code of honour, without thinking about the other factors. That makes Guo Jing stubborn and unreasonable... One step further and you'll reach the level of religious fanatics a la Miejue Shitai.

Anyway, both Wuji and Guo Jing have their faults. Nuff said...

[Han Solo]

Greendestiny, again some fabulous posts.

In his subconscious he chose to run away from dealing with his true feeling toward ZM (yeah, not a noble act it was – but, then, don’t we all in some degree try to run away/avoid problems we know we have to deal with ?);

That's the thing that REAL hero don't do. Real heroes in the traditional sense are cuts straight to the point, they confront their problems and they do not run away.

What i'm interested is if ZWJ's actions are a reaction to his past?

Why did I suspect ZZR’s trying to commit suicide is a more calculated act than purely out of broken-hearted ? Because of her ambitious nature. She wanted to stay as Er-Mei clan’s leader, she even had this idea of becoming an empress herself once Ming Clan overthrows Mongols. I don’t think such a strong character with big ambition like her would end her life just because of ZWJ.

I wonder if you're over-emphasizing the ambition of ZZR and downgrading her love for ZWJ?

If ZZR does not love ZWJ, I seriously think that:-
1) She would not be so hurt to marry that useless idiot, SQS
2) She would be so hurt to try and complete the 9 Yin Bone Claw, which in retrospect, she must have recognised as "evil"
3) She would not go into such extreme to kill Xie Xun, in order to cover up her killing of ZWJ's cousin.

Did ZZR ever think the horrible consequence of her framing up ZM and asking ZWJ to make oath to kill her ? Was that a sign of love ? Tell me, do any of you ever think of loving somebody but at the same time framing him/her up to kill somebody else to cover up your crime ?

That is more like a woman totally and seriously in love who wants ZWJ all for herself, and is prepared not to relinquish this battle of love at any cost. Granted, what she did was not ethical, nice, whatever. But Love = War.

I think ZWJ basically was always fond of ZZR – out of that memorable one day they spent together as children; but was it love ? I don’t think so. Being very fond of and wanting to treasure, yes, that’s why ZWJ respected her. But, since he also stated that he’s also afraid of her, I guess deep down he knew that she’s no longer exactly the same gentle innocent little girl he once had met at Han Shui.

Not sure of this. Certain scenes especially when he first re-met her and then at the battle of brightness peak suggests that he loves her. How much does this feeling persist as the novel goes and up to the point of the marriage?

By the way, why many blamed ZWJ for jilting ZZR at the altar, while nobody blamed her at the first place for contributing into the scene ? She’s the one who had schemed everything which ended up in the wedding. What made ZWJ’s act of jilting her at the altar heavier or more significant than the betrayal she did in the island ? Wasn’t she only deserved what she deserved ? If any of you had a partner like ZZR, who betrayed you secretly, and it was just right at the moment you were about to get married you found out the whole scheme (somebody leaking out to you), what were you going to do ? Still continued with the wedding process and then later did annulment (but it would be complicated if your partner decided not to let you have the annulment) or just jilted her/him at the altar ?

The thing is that he simply cancelled the marriage when ZM showed him XX's hair, which a sane person might reasonably interpret that ZM is playing a trick to prevent the marriage.
If he learned the truth at that time, then his action can be interpreted differently, but he didn't.

(4) After over 40 years, GJ couldn’t even let go his anger against OYF who had killed his 5 teachers. Was it good, you think, to give such example to your younger generation “hey, never forget those people who killed anybody close to you even though those very people who had been involved were dead long time ago” ?. One of the weakness of GJ was to forgive truly and let go of the past. OYF had died and he had paid much for all those ill deed he had conducted: he had lost his beloved son and later lost his memory and identity, and become a wandering nobody. In this case, in my opinion, GJ was much controlled by the good image of his teachers, and the bad image of OYF; while eventually they were no longer existed, they had been perished inside their tombs. Besides, OYF had done one good deed in the last years of his life: becoming YG’s foster father and teaching him his kung fu style so that YG managed to be alive under the Xuan Shen Sect’s pressure.

GJ is more tolerant than that. He forgave OYF for his murdering of his masters, pity him for his craziness and he did not pursue to wipe out OYF from the face of the earth.


Other things, you like HERO?
Then you would hopefully like this analysis of Hero by FaQ
http://www.spcnet.tv/movie/hero/movie_hero.shtml

And nice analysis of ZWJ and ZM.

Ramblings,
Han Solo

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Anonymous
TaiH: They were hero who doesn't want to deal with the problem of mankind, so they decided to live a life without people and their problem. They were tired of it.
--- This could also mean that they dont want to force their beliefs on the people and just let the people come to enlightenment on the people's own terms.

then maybe I should retire from this forum and stop forcing my belief of who is stronger on to other

Originally posted by Han Solo
That's the thing that REAL hero don't do. Real heroes in the traditional sense are cuts straight to the point, they confront their problems and they do not run away.

I think the theme of LOCH is about the struggle to be a hero and what it takes to be hero also. but it also shows the flaws of being a true hero also. As you know GJ suffered from choosing the thing he did.


To green destiny: On the HERO, I never read the story before, so I don't really understand what you said.
On the matter of heroes going to seclusion, I think we both have the same idea about why people such as YG, LHC, ZWJ went into seclusion. Just that you explain it in a positive way, while I give it a negative interpretation.
Also thanks for the nice comment about the signature. It is something I got of from watching and reading alot fighters excel and what other people in the novel deemed as impossible.

[Dirt]

There's certainly plenty of hero worship in regards to Jin Yong's works. Especially when you talk about Xiao Feng and Guo Jing. People still put importance on the idea of the the 'Nan Zhi Han Da Zang Fu'.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Dirt
People still put importance on the idea of the the 'Nan Zhi Han Da Zang Fu'.

What does it mean? Sorry, I can't read/speak/write Mandarin.

[sixdays]

"nan zhi han, da jiang fu" is a very old chinese idea that corresponds to the nobility of being a man, kind of like chivalry. "nan zhi han" pretty much means "real man" or "real hero". so there's a lot of sayings like "a real man will let blood flow before he lets tears flow"...at least, that's what my dad used to tell me when i used to cry as a little boy. there's other things, like "when a real man says something, even 4 horses can't pull it back"...which basically means "when a real man promises something, nothing can make him take it back".

the concept of "nan zhi han" (this is mandarin; i'm from hong kong, so for me in cantonese it's "nam zhi hon, dai jeung fu") is pretty outdated to people not brought up in chinese culture, but i point to it making me a good man in a lot of ways. it's goodtimes.

in my opinion, "nan zhi han" is what ZWJ lacks the most --- yet not having that set code is as much of a blessing to him as a curse. i think because he doesn't necessarily always follow the concepts of chivalry, he gets condemned by a lot of "hero worshippers" like dirt was talking about. a couple examples of what they would say to wuji:

-"for goodness sake, just stand up to the woman (women). why do you care so much?"

-"you promised to kill ZM, and now you're not going to. what kind of a man are you?" (also can be used like "you promised to marry ZZR" or something like that)

-"you're too attached to your YiFu (Xie Xun). why don't you just do what's right instead of listening to him all the time? he's crazy anyways."

the nan zhi han idea was what really drove the "righteous" schools to hate the evil sects. they saw that the "evil sects" didn't follow their own ways, and so hated them as a whole group...which wasn't necessarily wrong of them because there WERE a lot of bad people, but the "nan zhi han" idea really held back the righteous schools from being open to good people like YSS from the evil sects. i'm sure we've all experienced this --- like when your dad can't be persuaded no matter what you say.

i think wuji trusted his feelings a lot more. sometimes that leads to bad decisions, but he was really loyal to those that were loyal to him, and i respect that. i see that attitude reflected in other less traditional JY heroes, like YG and LHC. these were men who decided that good was found in everyone, and status didn't matter to them. in that way, i really respect them, especially LHC. i mean, he was brought up in that strict "nan zhi han" society unlike ZWJ or YG, yet he still understood that concept. however, i respect ZWJ least out of the three, because he was so danged wishy-washy...YG committed most to his decisions, while LHC was only held back by his respect for YBQ, who really didn't deserve it.

hope that cleared up the idea for you, rabadi...

[green destiny]

Uh, I said earlier that I had enough ramblings yet I cannot help myself not to pass comment on this, Han Solo. Forgive me for being out of “nan zhi han da zang fu” (to SIXDAYS: thank you very much for explaining the concept of it – it helped lots to understand why some characters in JY universe hold some values or words – sometimes up to the point of ridiculous rigidity. It opens my mind)… Sometimes circumstance and desire don’t allow me to be that

Yep, in traditional sense “hero” was like that… But like everything else in the world, which is all transient in its nature, so it was the concept of “hero”… It has too many facets and much depends on the person who perceives it.

---That is more like a woman totally and seriously in love who wants ZWJ all for herself, and is prepared not to relinquish this battle of love at any cost. Granted, what she did was not ethical, nice, whatever. But Love = War.---

Nope, in this case I don’t agree with you. But, first, let’s make clear what the concept of love I mean here. You may have different stand. It is not about war; it’s about accepting and letting go. Possession is about war – the fulfillment of desire to capture which later, if it cannot get what it wants, it will say: “If I cannot get it, then nobody else cannot get it, either.” (in the extreme point).

About ZZR:
(1) She never married SQS AT ALL – later in Shaolin she explained to her Er-mei Clan people that she’s still a virgin and that she pretended to be Madam Song for the sake of making ZWJ upset and then could win the contest. She said that it’s for the sake of Er-Mei Clan’s glory. What kind of woman do you think, who’s for her personal ambition and revenge, could make use somebody who loved her like that ? SQS was in love with her totally. Though, whether it’s true love or just a mere deep infatuation, I don’t know, because it’s not clear. Why did ZWJ upset, then ? Because, I think, being ZWJ it must have hurt to see her, in rage, married to SQS who had been much disgraced by wulin people for his killing of Mo. It was because: (1) she did that in rage toward him; (2) she married somebody who had been disgraced. ZWJ did care for ZZR, though, in my stand, it’s not love. When ZZR explained to her Er-Mei people, she also used phrase of “to make him upset”, not “to make him jealous”. So, she knew, I guess, that ZWJ wouldn’t be jealous to SQS for taking the place he had left; but upset out of regret, yes.
(2) She had secretly learnt whatever it was in “9 Yin” since she got a hand on it. She didn’t even wait until they could all go back to Mainland, or even waited until she was jilted. No, she directly learnt that in the very minute she managed to retrieve it. Remember, that when ZWJ tried to cure him, he, at certain phase, was puzzled because there was power in her which resisted his “yang” energy. XX wrongly analyzed that it’s because ZZR was a woman and her power was yin that it resisted to ZWJ’s energy. I said wrong because: (1) the so-called Er-Mei-yang-gang was derived from “9 Yang”, though it was influenced, too, by “9 Yin” – so if ZZR was true to her clan’s teaching, there wouldn’t be any resistance at all; (2) ZZR’ original inner power, before she started short-cut learning of “9 Yin” wasn’t that powerful compared to ZWJ, although indeed she had a good basic – so, based on this, her original power wouldn’t effect a resitance; ZZR suddenly could gain such progress on her power to resist ZWJ meant that she didn’t learn diligently from the very basic – it meant since beginning she had taken shortcut way – why ? Because she needed better skill and power to overcome later resistance by other more senior Er-Mei Clan’s members who didn’t like her to become the head – ie. Ting Ming Juen (she always dreamt to become the leader and once she had successfully kicked out Ki Xiao Fu). So she didn’t learn the “evil” skill out of devastation of being jilted. She did learn that to initially to secure her position of Er-Mei’s leader.
(3) She wanted to kill XX because: : (1) to make ZWJ miserable for having embarrassed her in front of public (she put lots of value on her “face” so being jilted really enraged her and thus sparked her hatred); (2)to cover up all the crime she had done in the island so she could keep up pretending to be the righteous leader of a good clan. The very reason why she did need to cover up was because she didn’t want to loose her face. If she wanted to kill XX because she’s afraid ZWJ hated her after finding out she’s the one who killed YL – it doesn’t make sense because anyway ZWJ would never regard her with fondness in his heart anymore if she killed XX in front of his eyes. He would live in regret, yes, but for sure he would never regard her anymore, either; just the same consequence when he found out that he had killed YL, in this respect. If she still wanted ZWJ, she’d better hold XX in her hand as hostage and forced ZWJ to marry her no matter what. After marriage, there’s nothing much ZWJ could do but to accept her; and even in this stage ZM could no longer do anything .

So, personally I don’t think I over-emphasized ZZR’s ambition over her love for ZWJ. She might believe she truly loved ZWJ. But, it’s not. She didn’t love anyone as she failed to love her truly. She had too much obsession on physical and material attributes, but never looked deeper: she’s physically very beautiful, she’s basically talented in martial art, clever and thorough in observation (this quality of hers was described during that time of her first appearance in front of ZWJ as adult: on the attack scenes to Ming Peak). So, such a woman, with ZZR’s background and upbringing, it’s just naturally that she had much confidence on her physical and material attributes – only to find that she couldn’t get the heart of the person she wanted (she had often pass sarcasm on ZWJ falling for ZM when they were engaged, she told him lies about having been raped and been with SQS’ child, she knew how ZWJ still thought of ZM in his heart that moment she, in suspicious mode, followed him to go around the town and saw him met ZM in that small shop yet she still forced the idea of their marriage). If you failed to let go of somebody who showed signs of not loving you back the way you wanted it, could it call “love” ? She’s enraged with jealousy, yes. Not of true love, but of the heart which wanted to possess. If your childhood friend, whom you’re very fond of, and very close to, started getting jealous on your partner and then said to you: “hey, I love you. I don’t want you to get together with your partner because in my opinion he/she’s not good enough for you. I’m the best and the most suitable for you because I’m handsome/beautiful, clever, and care about you. If you’re still with him/her, I’d rather kill myself.” What do you think about him/her ? Do you think him/her truly love you or only cared about her feeling – which to possess you – without regard to your true feeling ? Love and possession in many cases go hand in hand. The thin line to make difference, I think, is the ability to let go and accept the fact that we have to let go. That’s it. There’s no battle of love, but there are lots of battle of possession faking in the name of love.

After his pulling out of the ceremony, ZWJ felt relax and fortunate while he was with ZM. He felt guilty for her, but not sad of leaving her behind. It could mean that during he’s with ZZR, he must have felt being choked on, burdened on with things he couldn’t figure out. Can you feel being choked on, burdened on, while being with somebody who really loved you ? I think that kind of feeling you can get from those who regard you as their possession thus have this need of your assurance and control over you.

If you want to keep the stand that ZZR really loved ZWJ, please then tell me one thing: one single scene which ever ZZR showed sincerity toward ZWJ over her personal ambition before everything crumbled down. I had checked my memory and I couldn’t find one. I might simply miss it because my stand was that ZZR was ambitious and never loved ZWJ truly.

---Not sure of this. Certain scenes especially when he first re-met her and then at the battle of brightness peak suggests that he loves her. How much does this feeling persist as the novel goes and up to the point of the marriage?---

He was lonely at heart all along – that’s why he easily agreed to marry YL, out of his loneliness and also out of pity listening to much hardship in her life and her resemblance of his mother. But, did he love her in the way a man loved a woman ? I don’t think so. When he saw ZZR, he must have been struck back to that one fond day at Han Sui, her gentle and caring attitude at that time. But, then, again, did he fall for her the way a man fall for a woman ? ? I don’t think so. Being a passive lover, ZWJ, when he’s over his first teenager’s infatuation, wasn’t the type of falling in love at the first sight. Likely, he’s the type of slowly growing to love. Besides, the tragedy of his parents and his mother’s finale words also got much into his head not to put much emphasize on physical beauty and appearance. In term of characters, in my analysis,, it’s natural that ZM could win his heart. ZWJ was in nature a quiet, serious and humble character. ZM was playful and willfully, tended to be selfish due to her spoilt life yet to him, once she decided to make it personal relationship, she managed to be more caring. ZZR was gentle in manner, tough at heart (remember when she first met Zhang San Fung, even in grief over her brother’s death, she still could manage politely and controllably, as a 9-10-year-old girl answered him in good manner) – circumstances made her grow up from a caring little girl to become an ambitious woman (due to her parents and si fu); XC could be the 2nd best candidate for ZWJ as she’s caring, loyal, and meek (at least she wouldn’t make use on him, but then they both risked of being used by people around all their life); YL was willfully and tough – circumstances made her grow up bearing much bitterness in her heart.

In term of emotional background, ZM was able to offer him container for his past trauma because: (1) her cleverness can protect him from being cheated by people (he just need to let her know his every problems – this quality is similar to HR and RYY); (2) she didn’t have big trauma during her childhood like the other girls, ZZR, XC, and YL, so naturally she’s more stable in term of emotional security – thus she didn’t fall easily into unnecessary jealousy and subsequently turning to be evil or simply blackmailing him emotionally. ZM was emotionally strong and willfully because she had this advantage of secure background – her father loved and spoilt her lots. Her father’s love was shown clearly in the way he let go of her to follow ZWJ. He knew what kind of hardship his daughter chose and that he had done his best to prevent her from doing so. When he knew that he couldn’t change ZM’s mind by telling her the consequence of following ZWJ i.e. loosing her status as his daughter and position as a member of noble family, he chose to let her and ZWJ go, while actually he could at that moment weighted more on his glory in front of his Emperor by just capturing/killing ZWJ. One way or another he would loose his daughter, so why should he choose the way which he lost at least 3 things: (1) his daughter to a man who’s in his opponent’s side; (2) the prospect of glory of successfully capture/kill the head of Ming Clan; (3) the respect of his people of letting go his daughter run away with rebellion’s member. I think it was because of father like him that ZM had also ability to let go and not unnecessary created havoc because of jealousy: (1) her courage to choose between 2 when she was confronted by her father – she knew exactly what she would lose directly by keeping up with ZWJ, while actually she couldn’t be sure what she would end up. But she chose one, anyway, and risked everything. (2) During Shaolin crises, she knew that ZWJ wanted to meet ZZR to ask for her help for XX and she didn’t say anything to prevent him doing so, though later she told him about her thoughts. (3) She was jealous when she saw the incident in the woods and witnessed also the attitude of other people (Wudang, Er-Mei, and Ming Clan’s members) who wished ZWJ end up with ZZR instead of her, and out of emotion she just left. But, she didn’t do anything to ZWJ – i.e. confronting him hysterically with all those things she had to sacrifice in order to be with him and emotionally blackmailed him with that (while ZZR used lots of sarcasm to make ZWJ cornered regarding ZM).
In term of fatherhood, I like this character of ZM’ father.

Compared to him, other father figures – Yin Ye Wang (YL’s father), Song Yuan Qiao (SQS’ father), Zhang Chui San, and XX – looked pale; they are mere fathers whose individual values and faces were more important than their sons and daughter’s happiness and overall welfare. SYQ failures as father: (1) letting SQS go after ZZR but didn’t care enough to accompany him, though he knew that SQS wasn’t that matured and experienced enough to wander around himself; (2) judging from SQS who couldn’t control his jealousy toward ZWJ during Ming Peak battle upon seeing ZZR caring about ZWJ, SQS must have been somewhat overshadowed by his father’s big name as famous Wudang hero (like GF who sold around his parents’ famous names while actually she didn’t have any real good skills) – thus failed him enable to get rejected or lost to others whom he considered to “nobody”, too much proud of his status and talent; (3) SQS was easily trapped by Chen You Liang as he on his own didn’t have firm ground and that must be related to his father’s upbringing; (4) SYQ tried to commit suicide when he found out that it was SQS who had killed Mo, instead of looking for him first, acknowledging his contributive faults, and letting Zhang San Fung do the punishment.

ZZR was too conflicted as: (1) his parents belong to “evil” sect and she was raised up as sort of a princess when his parents declared themselves as the founding of Zhou Kingdom (or whatever it was) which then was crushed down by the Mongols, she lost everything at the age of 10; (2) she was brought to Wudang as a sort of “hostage” (as Chang Yuan Chang brought ZWJ to Butterfly Valley); (3) she was later sent to Er-Mei, whose fake-nun leader (how can you be a nun and still retain hatred in heart ?) was burnt by hatred toward “evil” sect. So, imaginable, in those years at Wudang and Er-Mei, ZZR must have suffered lots of “brainwash” to make her hate her own background under Mie Jue Shitay. She might even have to hide the fact of her parents and had no chance at all to talk about her of losing her parents and brother. This point was something I found missing in the entire story: how ZZR grew up as a member of respectful “good” clan with her “evil” clan background – those were years before Ming Peak battle, when separation between the 2 clans were rigid and restrictive. So, when she met ZWJ again, it’s all just natural that she felt she loved him. Because, ZWJ had similar background like her as being part of (even though half) “evil” clan. ZZR might have looked in ZWJ a person she could share her background burden and prejudice. That’s why, I think, with such suffering in her psyche she wanted to have ZWJ by her side. Not out of true love for him; but for filling in the loneliness in her heart because of her background. In return, I think, ZWJ did have that kind of matched emotional trauma, too: “Ah, she shared the similar background, of being prejudiced by “good” clan in which she grew up, just like me.” That’s why, in my opinion, the affection between them was more as on footing on the same ground. If their character were compatible, it would be easy for them to also love each other in term of a man loving a woman and vice versa; but, it’s not. They resembled each other in character – their tendency to be quiet and be with their thoughts and emotions, their tendency to be caring and wanting to please others before themselves. I think, SQS with his background would be a more compatible partner for ZZR, if ever he had been given to (so he didn’t turn to become a jealous man). Why did ZZR turn to her ambitious side ? It’s in her blood, but it might not need to be awakened if she had stable background. She had to turn to it because that’s the only way to cover up her feeling of inadequacy all along in front of her si fu and other disciples. So, when her si fu pressured her, she always finally submitted though a certain degree of reluctance in the beginning: when she was forced to stab him during Ming Peak battle, when she was asked to make that heavy oath during An Wan Temple crises. Why did she do what she did in the island: (1) to fulfill her ambition – which actually only a resort of her feeling in adequate due to her background vs the belief her si fu put into her thinking; (2) to get ZWJ fully by her side; (3) to make revenge on ZM as she thought of her as the cause of her si fu’s death plus she hated Mongols for having killed her family mercilessly – she knew that for ZM, what most painful was to be accused by ZWJ; (4) she attacked YL to prevent YL leaking out her crime and ousting a strong rival from ZWJ’s side. I sort of pity ZZR, but still dislike her attitudes toward ZWJ, ZM, and SQS.

XC was lonely and emotionally insecure, too. She grew up without ever having chanced to get close to her own mother. She knew about her, but couldn’t be in close emotional contact with her. Later on, she was sent to Ming Peak to sneak in, but her appearance made Yang Xiao and Yang Bu Hui suspect her background so they chained her down. ZWJ was the first person in her life who showed her kindness and warmth – he treated her as a “person”, not as “thing”.She was devoted and would do anything for ZWJ, and they might be peacefully living together; but then they might never have chance to grow up since she would say “yes” to any of his ideas and whatever, even if he wanted to take another wife. That’s not good in the long term. ZWJ was the first person in her life who showed her kindness and warmth – he treated her as a “person”, not as “whatever else”.

YL was most bitter: witnessing how her mother being literally put aside by her father and being abused by her step-mother and step-siblings because she was born girl and late, too. Out of rage she had killed her step-mother causing her step-siblings after her tail that her mother had to commit suicide in order to protect her. Then, she was taken by the eccentric Cin Hoa Popo, who was another paranoid on the run. Cin Hoa Popo might treat her good enough compared to her own familys’ treatment. Yet, still Cin Hoa Popo wasn’t the type who’s able to provide her secure emotional ground. No wonder she grew up to be a girl who just could be happy by seeing other persons miserable. Her character simply would be a mismatched with ZWJ. The sad point was that YL, all her lifetime, looked for a man who resembled her father much. She had this syndrome: “Ah, he was like my father’s unjustified treating toward my mother, but I love him and am willing to surrender to him, so this time will be different. He will care for me and will not turn out to be like my father.” That’s why she loved that young mean ZWJ she had met in Butterfly Valley, but not the grown ZWJ who was kind-hearted. She was looking for compensation of the image of a father she never had had, and never would have.

---The thing is that he simply cancelled the marriage when ZM showed him XX's hair, which a sane person might reasonably interpret that ZM is playing a trick to prevent the marriage.
If he learned the truth at that time, then his action can be interpreted differently, but he didn't.---

Yup, he might have known that ZM was playing trick to prevent that wedding. The problems were: (1) he sort of forced himself to do the wedding (as he was convinced that it’s the best way for everybody. His flaw was that he wanted to do good for others and many times not only he ended up hurting himself but also others he intended to do good) – he told ZM later when they were together that he was sad as he remembered her when he was about to do the ceremony; (2) he was convinced that, anyway, it was the end of anything he ever had for ZM, he soon was a married man – so, it must have been a great emotional shock for him to see ZM appear boldly in front of public like that, risking her life (because in that wedding room, many people had been played by her during An Wan Temple crises; (3) if he was already sad of remembering her, ZM’s 2nd request not to marry ZZR must have added salt on the wound J - and it must be emotionally hard for him to refuse it; (4) so, subsequently, when ZM showed XX’s hair to him, I think, he’s already fell out of any self-control and forgot about his intention to do what’s good according to others and for others and just followed her. During the wedding procession, there were 2 things weighted his heart: XX’s whereabouts and ZM, so when suddenly these 2 appearing in front of his eyes… voilaaa… he got captured by a strong wash of emotional an… jilted his bride at the altar.

Now, come to ZM’s motive to come right on the wedding day and not before: to separate ZZR for good from ZWJ. Being ZM, I think, as she knew ZZR was the one who had framed her in the island, she should guess that ZZR wouldn’t be able to manage the humiliation of being jilted at the altar. If she contacted ZWJ before the wedding, at best it could only postpone the wedding procession because even though they might get close during the trip, he wouldn’t that easily break up his engagement to ZZR as ZZR was the girl chosen and approved by his yi fu. So, if ZWJ couldn’t intentionally break up his engagement with ZZR, then it meant ZZR had to be made to break it up. Besides, she took it, I guess, as a revenge for ZZR for having framed her like that. It was just like that old sayings: in crises, there’s opportunity; in glory, there’s curse. She used both. I had been questioned myself: why ZM dared to make appearance in front of public like that without guards at all (Xuan Ming brothers, for instance) ? This is what I think, she used circumstance: (1) on the wedding feast, she would be welcome as guest and the host (Ming Clan) would have to guarantee her safety while she’s there; (2) if it failed and members of Ming Clan wanted to capture the opportunity and make her hostage or if Ming Clan let vengeful guests make their way, she must have calculated that ZWJ wouldn’t allow that bad things happened on her in front of his eyes .

Ok, that’s enough for NOW. Don’t know later J. Thank you for all who have read my posts and comments, I appreciate that

[Anonymous]

TaiH: then maybe I should retire from this forum and stop forcing my belief of who is stronger on to other
--- What!?! j/k. And miss your posts? Nah. Bring it on, Yeah.
.
To gDestiny: another JY chapter? Good stuff on SQS's father and SQS's upbringing, ZM's father and her upbringing.

[Dirt]

green destiny:











FINALLY, someone who can and does discuss, intelligently, the characters in JY's works and not just who's kung fu is better.

I would love to hear your ideas on Xiao Feng and his suicide.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Dirt

FINALLY, someone who can and does discuss, intelligently, the characters in JY's works and not just who's kung fu is better.

I agree that greendestiny has brought a new dimension to our discussions, which is terrific, but I also feel that your remark might be a bit unfair to our other regulars. We do have quite a few great conversationalists here, and they each contribute much more than "who's kung fu is better".

[Han Solo]

Again a wonderful analysis of the situations, Green-destiny.

A comment to your post and then some more questoins to everyone:-

ZZR was never really treated like a hostage in Wudang. In fact, her treatment was far better than what she would have gotten should she not gotten to wudang.

Q:-
I just can't ever find myself to be sympathetic to MJST. She tired once, and then tried another time, to use one of her female disciples to use their feminity and body to seduce and conquer over her sworn enemy of Ming Sect.

Does she not learn from "Kei Hui Fu"'s incidents all the years before? does she not feel the pain of losing and killing her favoured disciple?

Why must she again subject another disciple, ZZR, to such fate of having to choose between her love and her sect?

Why did she, even at the end of her life, still think that Ming Sect is the greatest evil on the face of the earth, when she has just been subject to all sorts of harsh punishments by the Mongols and been rescued by the Ming cult?

Is the death of her "brother" too hurtful for her, leaving such deep hatred for XX and the Ming Sect?

Leaving now with another comment:
THe HSDS 2003, which i am currently watching, is full of cheap CGIs which does not add to the story, plus the plot is full of add-ons. One thing that i like about the series is that at the end of each episode, there's a small commentary about JY and the characters in HSDS which is rather surpisingly good, coming from such a TV production company. Hopefully, everyone who watches the series will enjoy those commentaries.

Ramblings,
Han Solo

[Han Solo]

One more question:-

Repeatedly in this thread, ZZR's background was described to be

his parents belong to “evil” sect and she was raised up as sort of a princess when his parents declared themselves as the founding of Zhou Kingdom (or whatever it was) which then was crushed down by the Mongols, she lost everything at the age of 10;

I always thought that ZZR is the girl of a boatman rather than anything specifically connected to Ming Sect.
Am I wrong?

[Anonymous]

HSolo: Does she not learn from "Kei Hui Fu"'s incidents all the years before? does she not feel the pain of losing and killing her favoured disciple?
.
Why must she again subject another disciple, ZZR, to such fate of having to choose between her love and her sect?
--- Two questions, same answer. "Sins of the father." She didnt accomplish her evil plan/revenge, so wanted her legacy children to continue it.
.
.
HSolo: Why did she, even at the end of her life, still think that Ming Sect is the greatest evil on the face of the earth, when she has just been subject to all sorts of harsh punishments by the Mongols and been rescued by the Ming cult?
.
Is the death of her "brother" too hurtful for her, leaving such deep hatred for XX and the Ming Sect?
--- Two questions, same answer. Her brother or whoever died from Ming cult must meant alot to her, this attachment probably became very personal to her. Like MadameGongsun, she cracked/brokenDown so to speak.

[Trinie]

Wow! Excellent analysis green destiny!! I have never thought about all those points in HSDS. Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and great post. I now understand HSDS better from reading your post. Your post answered many of the questions I have always wondered about. Thanks again!!!

[sixdays]

wow, green...that post was just like...titanic. i literally had to stop reading and come back later cuz my eyes got tired.

at the end of the day, though, i think you're overemphasizing ZM a bit. don't get me wrong; i like her the most out of the four, actually. however, she also had her share of wrongs --- i'm mainly pointing to the various traps she put wuji through and the hiding of her identity. i'd like to bring up an earlier argument of yours, because i think it explains why ZWJ eventually chose ZM. that argument is the sort of oedipal complex that he had, looking for the girl who ultimately modeled his mother. though his mother told him to stay away from girls like herself, her words really had the opposite effect; seeing as they were the last piece of advice from his parents, wuji would not be likely to forget this saying and instead obsess over it. in always trying to stay away from a girl like his mom, he had to first be able to identify a girl like his mom; and if you're always looking for a certain type of girl, no matter if it's for good reasons or not, you're going to become attracted to that group of girls.


anyways, back to ZM. first, let's do a side-by-side comparison:

1) YSS comes from evil sect, and ZM comes from the mongols. both are hated by the "righteous" schools.

2) though both YSS and ZM are fairly gifted in martial arts, they are below their lovers (ZCS and ZWJ) and rely on trickery to win their fights --- YSS with poison, and ZM with traps and strategy.

3) both YSS and ZM start off as enemies to their lovers, yet experience an immediate attraction. ZCS and ZWJ both resist this affection at first, but grow to love the woman outside of her affiliation.

4) YSS and ZM both drew close to their lovers AFTER they were able to have some time in isolation; YSS had the time on fire-ice island while ZM had the trip to shaolin. this leads me to believe that had ZWJ spent more time alone with ZM, he would have been even more attached to her.

5) YSS and ZM both give up their stations in life to be with their lovers --- YSS as the hall leader and daughter of a huge cult leader, and ZM giving up her title as princess and even helping the hans.

---

there's some more that i can think of, but i think that's enough to make the point. from both a background standpoint and a personality standpoint, ZM really resembles YSS more than any of the other 4 girls. i'd say that ZZR is almost the opposite of YSS, and here's why:

1) YSS goes from power (daughter of cult leader) to having a humble life; ZZR goes from a humble beginning (boatman's daughter) to dreaming of being empress.

2) this is the most obvious: YSS starts off ruthless and turns out sweet; ZZR starts off sweet and becomes ruthless.

3) YSS (and ZM) gave THEMSELVES up to be with their men, whereas ZZR kept requiring ZWJ to give up things for HER.

---

again, there's other points but i think that's a pretty convincing argument. ZZR initally lives her life for the mission her master gave her. i believe this is why she attempted to learn the 9yin white bone claw, and use it to rule e-mei. as another poster mentioned (it was either han solo or green, or maybe anonymous...i dunno, i'm too lazy to look) ZZR's initial ambition was for the clan, and not for herself. however, she turned her eyes inward and began living for herself and her own gratification. i think this is what led her to pursue wuji so strongly, even though she knew his heart was given to ZM already --- she couldn't admit that she couldn't get something that she wanted, and so went to greater and greater lengths to POSSES rather than LOVE. i'm borrowing this concept a bit from greendestiny, and for that i salute you.

all in all, i think JY sets up ZWJ's love life to mirror both paths that his father could have took: ZM, because ZCS chose the "darkside" and ZZR, if ZCS never met YSS and married some proper girl. we can examine this from a purely romantic standpoint, but this translates into the bigger point that JY is trying to make in HSDS: prejudice is wrong, and nothing is what it seems. JY is using HSDS to make the ultimate point against traditionalism. it started with LOCH when GJ rejected mongolia in favor of china, continued in ROCH when YG chose XLN no matter what taboos he broke, and culminated in HSDS when all the evil cults turned out to be nice people, while all the righteous clans sucked --- making his hero have his origins from righteous groups but choosing the "evil" ming sect in the end. i'm exempting wudang from bastard status because they have an open pacifist philosophy, and same goes for shaolin. a couple points:

1) with the exception of wudang and perhaps shaolin, no one from the righteous clans have ever shown wuji respect; instead, it has all come from the "evil" clans.

2) while everyone thought the power of the dragon saber and heaven sword was in the weapons themselves, it was actually the treasures they held within. (an example of "nothing is what it seems" here)

3) the most kindhearted girls that wuji finds are where the most evil are supposed to be: ZM from the mongols, and XC from the ming sect.

4) that girl that ruined 6th brother's life (can't remember her name right now) and ZZR both came from righteous clans, and the real love of 6th brother's life came from ming sect as well.

we can see that JY's message is really to open up your heart and to kill misconceptions. this is really the biggest difference between wuji and his father --- that his father killed himself because he stuck to tradition, while his son refused to follow tradition and instead followed his heart. this eventually lead to ZWJ's happiness and "the happy ending".

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
I agree that greendestiny has brought a new dimension to our discussions, which is terrific, but I also feel that your remark might be a bit unfair to our other regulars. We do have quite a few great conversationalists here, and they each contribute much more than "who's kung fu is better".

True. Still, I think that greendestiny thinks outside of the conventional boxes that I've seen.

[green destiny]

Here was the discrepancies between the novel and HSDS ’02 (Alec Su, Alyssa Jia, Gao Yuan Yuan):

(1) In the novel: ZZR was the daughter and the only left family’s members of Zhou family who had rebelled against Mongols and subsequently founded its small kingdom called Zhou Kingdom (or something like that). Her family and everything else met its doom in the hands of Mongols and Chang Yu Cuan managed to bring her and her brother run away. That day at Han Sui, it’s coincidence that ZSF and young ZWJ (they were on the way back from Shaolin) saw how Chang Yu Cuan fought heroically to protect the siblings against some Mongols. ZSF had lent his hands so Chang and ZZR were saved, her brother was dead. ZSF then learnt about the background of Chang and ZZR, and upon knowing that they were related to the so-called evil sect, he actually didn’t want to come into deeper connection. But, Chang, who was at that time heavily injured and was planning to go to Butterfly Valley then suggested to hand ZZR to ZSF as guarantee while he brought ZWJ along with him for cure. ZSF knew the famous name of Oh Jing Niu (that doctor of Butterfly Valley) and he thought that there might be chance for ZWJ to be cured. So he agreed, with one term: under no circumstance ZWJ should be pressured to join evil sect even though his mother was the daughter of White Browed Eagle King. It wasn’t stated, though, when ZZR was sent to Er-mei by ZSF: before or after ZWJ was found out missing from Butterfly Valley. As far as I remember during his 2 years at Butterfly Valley, there’s no mention about any Wudang heroes coming to visit him; but Chang often came once in a few months. When ZWJ later met ZZR again, he was completely surprised that ZZR was then the disciple of Er-mei, not Wudang. During the wedding procession, it was Chang who became the representative elders of ZZR (ZWJ had his maternal grandfather, uncle, and Wudang heroes).

(2) About Mie Jue Taishi: it’s not her brother who was killed by Yang Xiao so made her burnt by hatred toward any members of Ming Clan. It was her martial brother and also her LOVER J. After he was killed, she cut her hair, became nun and the leader of Er-mei. So, now you can guess: why she wanted her female disciples chose between love and her sect (leadership of Er-mei). Because she wanted them mimicking her experience: broken hearted, becoming a nun and leading Er-mei. Yep, Er-mei leaders for 4 generations were known for their distinguishable quality: all were broken hearted women !!! From Guo Xiang to Mie Jue and ZZR. Why Ki Xiao Fu was killed by Mie Jue, because she clearly refused to become a broken hearted woman first. Mie Jue was a mentally sick broken hearted woman – that’s it. If you compare her to Madam Gongsun, I’d rather choose the latter. Even though Madam Gongsun was not a good-hearted woman, either, but she became really evil after being fooled on by her husband (by having other women) and later on turning to be completely mentally sick after being betrayed cruelly. Mie Jue simply turned evil because she couldn’t take revenge on Yang Xiao so, instead, she wanted all her beautiful female disciples to become like her. Ki Xiao Fu and ZZR were both beautiful women; Mie Jue, in her youth days, as it’s stated, was a beautiful woman, too (can you imagine that ?). Ting Ming Juen was never seen as candidate for Er-mei leadership because she’s not beautiful enough. She didn’t have that basic quality of mimicking Mie Jue’s fate. So, in my opinion, Han Solo: No, Mie Jue didn’t feel anything when she killed Ki Xiao Fu with her own hands – she even ordered Ting Ming Juen and one of her disciples to look for Yang Bu Hui to be killed – or when she forced ZZR to do evil things for her sake. Mie Jue was mentally insane.

HSDS ’02 did lots of polishing on its evil and turned-to-be evil characters: Mie Jue, ZZR, Wu family, Cu family, XX, Cin Hoa Popo (Taykis/Tai Ji Shi), Ho Tai Chong (that Kun Lun Clan’s leader), etc. The novel was sharper at describing the characters of these people. Reading the novel and analyzing the characters in it was often shuddering for me (though I have read it over and over again).

Hope it clears things for you