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Thread: ZWJ- trapped in the past?

  1. #61
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    Excellent posts from green destiny
    Theyre so long and in depth i'll have to read them in several sessions.

  2. #62
    Member starz_jing's Avatar
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    People here really give long replies... I not done with all the reading. However, the points raised by all of you really enlightened me!

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homura
    Excellent posts from green destiny
    Theyre so long and in depth i'll have to read them in several sessions.
    I still haven't finish reading them. and it been over months already.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    I'm surprised that this thread is still in existence.

  5. #65
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    wow. just finished the first posting by green destiny. wanted to say something. then decided not too. think will spend the next few days reading this thread. hehe.

    any other gem, esp related to hsds, lying around some other place? please put them out. hehe.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    She does love Wuji, but when her teacher commanded her to stab Wuji in his heart with Heaven Sword, Zhiruo did it. This does not mean that her respect for Miejue is bigger than her love for Wuji, but because she first had to place her own safety (position as Emei disciple) above everything else. She is selfish, but we can't blame her for that.
    If we wished to defend her for this then i'd say that there was nothing wrong with her attempting to stab him. She aims away from his heart and in any case he is perfectly capable of dodging. If he just woke up from his stupor long enough he'd have realised the situation he'd put her in by sparing her when he whupped the other Ermei disciples, and handing the sword back to her specifically.

    This was now a second chance for him to rectify the situation. He simply had to dodge or slap her aside. But no, he has to stand gaping. Alas he was well known for poor battle strategy - what chance did he have against such a beautiful one?

    -------------------

    Does anyone know why Granny Gold Flower is intent on abducting ZZR to Serpent Island? The heaven sword is not in the possession of Ermei - abducting ZZR will probably lessen any chances of Ermei recovering it (she repeatedly demands to see it when she encounters the Ermei clan). Her official excuse was that ZZR can focus on her martial arts training. How pray tell can she even access the martial arts manuals when she can't even go back to Ermei?

    Short of some unforseen circumstances (like acquiring 9 Yin) even if ZZR practiced for many years, she would not likely catch up with Granny.

    Granny is cunning but it seems she has worked out some the mysteries of the Dragon Sabre. How is this so? She seems to realise that ZZR as the new clan leader holds the secrets and that the Heaven Sword is part of the equation? The sword and sabre being a pair is no secret but it seems no one else in the novel ever worked this out, so how did Granny work this out and what exactly was her agenda in abducting ZZR?

    Any comments on the above? They have always perplexed me and always seemed like it was a good way to get ZZR to be on Serpent Island but not adequately explained.

    ---------------
    Re: ZWJ being indecisive

    I think it is not only his past which makes him indecisive in facing his feelings for ZM. I think the present and the future compounds his unwillingness to confront his feelings. ZM is a mongolian junzhu and his love for her is his personal relations are conflicting with the greater picture - his role at the time in uniting wulin and the common ppl to rebel against the Yuan Dynasty. I guess the consequences of his love and impact on the greater good is also a big factor for his indecision or poor decision.
    Last edited by Zhuge Liang; 11-12-04 at 12:52 AM.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

  7. #67
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    If we wished to defend her for this then i'd say that there was nothing wrong with her attempting to stab him. She aims away from his heart and in any case he is perfectly capable of dodging.
    She was going straight for his heart, but her hand was shaky and missed... He was standing very close to her (he just handed her back the sword) and never thought she would stab him. Who the hell could dodge that one? Here's an idea. How about she suddenly turned back and chopped Mie Jue's head off? That'd have been just as surprising and much more enjoyable.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  8. #68
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    hi zhuge liang, i will try but can't promise correct answers.

    on the first comment, i think i will say that zwj is basically a very nice person. he is forever willing to die for people. hence, he just stood still and let zzr take a plunge if it can settle the problem. another incident was he was willing to take the poision from zhu youliang when zzr was captured by the beggar clan.

    on your second comment about jing hua por por bringing zzr to snake island, i think jing hua por por only wants to play safe. it is always good to have a hostage around, more so that she is the leader of er-mei. along the way, she may be able to really test whether what zzr said is true/false, e.g. no heaven sword.

    on your third comment about zwj's indecisiveness in facing his feelings for zm, i tend to see it in a different picture. because zwj does not like zm in the beginning, he finds it very easy to pour out his worries to her. slowly, he begins to like her and when he saw her how much she loves him [breaking the marriage and breaking family ties], i think zwj has no choice but really to love her.

    sorry if my answers worsen your queries. hehe.

  9. #69
    Senior Member sunnysnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    The character of Zhao Ming/Zhao Min was portrayed overly simple by Jin Yong in my opinion. She appeared as the princess of the Yuan Empire, leading a personal army to crush the Han rebellion. But as soon as she had to decide between her love for Zhang Wuji and her responsibilities, her family, country, people etc. she chose for love. While this makes Zhao Min a very loveable character, it does not make her interesting... Zhou Zhiruo's character is much more complex, so I will only comment on her.

    When she appeared for the second time in the novel, she was already the disciple of Emei. The first thing she did was deceiving Ding Minjun and by doing so, helping Wuji and Yin Li. To Wuji, Zhiruo is now a very gentle, beautiful girl. But Yin Li pointed out: "Incredible that such a young girl could be so good in the way of deceit."

    Then on Guangming Peak, Zhiruo secretly helped Wuji by pointing out the flaws in the Two Extremities Sword and Sabre Formation. No one, not even her own teacher Miejue, saw through her trickery.

    Also, after they returned from Snake Island, Zhiruo putted up a show by faking suicide. She first made Han Lin'er worry about her by being gloomy, and then when Wuji came back at the hotel she hang herself. Zhiruo had calculated everything perfectly.

    From the way she handled Golden Flower Granny, stealing Dragon Sabre etc. we can see that she's a great actress. Like you said: those years in Emei must have been hard, the only way for her a poor infant fisherman's daughter to get a better life is by making oneself popular. Zhiruo is not born deceitful, but she became so due to the need to survive. She does love Wuji, but when her teacher commanded her to stab Wuji in his heart with Heaven Sword, Zhiruo did it. This does not mean that her respect for Miejue is bigger than her love for Wuji, but because she first had to place her own safety (position as Emei disciple) above everything else. She is selfish, but we can't blame her for that.

    Zhiruo is also ambitious. She wants to become the empress of the new dynasty. Compared to Xiaochao, who would rather be Wuji's servant than queen of the world, and Zhao Min, who could give up everything to be at Wuji's side... Zhiruo is not as loveable. Coming from a poor family, losing her parents, being brought to Emei... this all gave her a sense of insecurity and inferiority. But her looks, intelligence, abilities and strong character made her feel that she deserves better than that. Coupled with other factors (becoming Miejue's successor, falling in love with Wuji) made her become "a political creature" (Jin Yong's own words). The famous Mainland China Jinyongologist Chen Mo said: "If the world was a game of chess, then to Zhou Zhiruo the ideal situation would be - becoming the leader of Emei, mastering Nine Yin and making the Emei school the superpower of the martial arts world. Marrying Zhang Wuji, and have the world dominated by the Ming Cult, the Ming Cult ruled by Wuji, and Zhang Wuji in the palm of her hand... Her ending therefore, could be seen as a twist of fate, but also as the outcome of her own doing. The thing is, Zhou Zhiruo wants to have everything, but she does not know what she really wants."

    a v gd analysis of zzr...i like all 3 gers bt somehow im attracted to zzr e most...she's this mysterious n complex kter that seems gd bt is evil or is evil bt is forced to under circumstances...she's a v rounded n deep kter unlike e others who r kinda boring n flat to me
    Last edited by sunnysnow; 11-12-04 at 07:00 AM.

  10. #70
    Member Yang Ming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    Zhou Zhiruo's character is much more complex, so I will only comment on her.

    When she appeared for the second time in the novel, she was already the disciple of Emei. The first thing she did was deceiving Ding Minjun and by doing so, helping Wuji and Yin Li. To Wuji, Zhiruo is now a very gentle, beautiful girl. But Yin Li pointed out: "Incredible that such a young girl could be so good in the way of deceit."

    Then on Guangming Peak, Zhiruo secretly helped Wuji by pointing out the flaws in the Two Extremities Sword and Sabre Formation. No one, not even her own teacher Miejue, saw through her trickery.

    Also, after they returned from Snake Island, Zhiruo putted up a show by faking suicide. She first made Han Lin'er worry about her by being gloomy, and then when Wuji came back at the hotel she hang herself. Zhiruo had calculated everything perfectly.

    From the way she handled Golden Flower Granny, stealing Dragon Sabre etc. we can see that she's a great actress. Like you said: those years in Emei must have been hard, the only way for her a poor infant fisherman's daughter to get a better life is by making oneself popular. Zhiruo is not born deceitful, but she became so due to the need to survive. She does love Wuji, but when her teacher commanded her to stab Wuji in his heart with Heaven Sword, Zhiruo did it. This does not mean that her respect for Miejue is bigger than her love for Wuji, but because she first had to place her own safety (position as Emei disciple) above everything else. She is selfish, but we can't blame her for that.

    Zhiruo is also ambitious. She wants to become the empress of the new dynasty. Compared to Xiaochao, who would rather be Wuji's servant than queen of the world, and Zhao Min, who could give up everything to be at Wuji's side... Zhiruo is not as loveable. Coming from a poor family, losing her parents, being brought to Emei... this all gave her a sense of insecurity and inferiority. But her looks, intelligence, abilities and strong character made her feel that she deserves better than that. Coupled with other factors (becoming Miejue's successor, falling in love with Wuji) made her become "a political creature" (Jin Yong's own words). The famous Mainland China Jinyongologist Chen Mo said: "If the world was a game of chess, then to Zhou Zhiruo the ideal situation would be - becoming the leader of Emei, mastering Nine Yin and making the Emei school the superpower of the martial arts world. Marrying Zhang Wuji, and have the world dominated by the Ming Cult, the Ming Cult ruled by Wuji, and Zhang Wuji in the palm of her hand... Her ending therefore, could be seen as a twist of fate, but also as the outcome of her own doing. The thing is, Zhou Zhiruo wants to have everything, but she does not know what she really wants."
    That's what I think about Zhuo Zhi Ruo too.
    But do you think it's illogical that she didn't kill Zhao Min that night. That was a very big mistake that shouldn't have happened. She could kill Zhang Wu Ji's sister, cut her ears, why couldn't she killed Zhao Min before putting her on the boat? And Da Sun too.

  11. #71
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej
    any other gem, esp related to hsds, lying around some other place? please put them out. hehe.
    All you need to do is to use the search function, and search for all green destiny's posts, 'cause most of the time he/she was talking about HSDS. The search function is *much* worse compared to it prior to the forum upgrade, but you can still utilize it.

    Happy hunting for the other gems

  12. #72
    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    She was going straight for his heart, but her hand was shaky and missed... He was standing very close to her (he just handed her back the sword) and never thought she would stab him. Who the hell could dodge that one? Here's an idea. How about she suddenly turned back and chopped Mie Jue's head off? That'd have been just as surprising and much more enjoyable.
    In that case she sure had some gall to ever see him again. I guess the adaptions kinda portray it in a different light as ZWJ seems to stand there gawking at her waiting for her to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Ming
    But do you think it's illogical that she didn't kill Zhao Min that night. That was a very big mistake that shouldn't have happened. She could kill Zhang Wu Ji's sister, cut her ears, why couldn't she killed Zhao Min before putting her on the boat?
    Perhaps her plan works better if ZM is alive (although there was no guarantee she would get back to the mainland alive) as ZZR push all the crimes onto her. However, if ZM totally disappears then ppl might suspect. After all, if ZWJ did not love ZM so much he would have probably killed her when he encountered her again after that incident. Not a perfect explanation i admit.
    Last edited by Zhuge Liang; 11-13-04 at 07:07 PM.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Ming
    That's what I think about Zhuo Zhi Ruo too.
    But do you think it's illogical that she didn't kill Zhao Min that night. That was a very big mistake that shouldn't have happened. She could kill Zhang Wu Ji's sister, cut her ears, why couldn't she killed Zhao Min before putting her on the boat? And Da Sun too.
    Actually she didn't kill ZM then because she wanted ZWJ to kill her, she later on made him promise that if he should see ZM again he would kill her without talking to her first.

    I think she acted like this because she knew that ZWJ loved ZM, and that he would never forget her, so she tried tricking him into killing him herself so that he couldn't have any positive feelings about her even after she died.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhuge Liang
    Perhaps her plan works better if ZM is alive (although there was no guarantee she would get back to the mainland alive) as ZZR push all the crimes onto her. However, if ZM totally disappears then ppl might suspect. After all, if ZWJ did not love ZM so much he would have probably killed her when he encountered her again after that incident. Not a perfect explanation i admit.
    Why?
    There is no better way to keep things in secrets than killing all the people who know about it. Death people can't talk. I think it would be better for Zhuo Zhi Ruo that Zhao Min died with all the crimes.

    Furthermore, at the beginning that was such a stupid plan.
    What would have kept Zhao Min from killing Zhuo Zhi Ruo if she had killed miss En?

    If Zhao Min had been the director, it would have been much more better for her to kill them all except for Zhang Wu Ji. She would said that Xie Sun was insane, therefore tried to rape all the girl, as he had done the night Wu Ji's mom blinded him. She knew she couldn't fight him, so she decided poisoned and eventually killed him just to keep her, "especially you, my darling, safe". Unfortuately, it was too late to save those two miserable girls. How could Zhang Wu Ji discovered the truth?

    Or she could have thrown them into some deep valley and said during the fight the fell down. That would be a perfect crime.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM
    Actually she didn't kill ZM then because she wanted ZWJ to kill her, she later on made him promise that if he should see ZM again he would kill her without talking to her first.

    I think she acted like this because she knew that ZWJ loved ZM, and that he would never forget her, so she tried tricking him into killing him herself so that he couldn't have any positive feelings about her even after she died.
    Well, love and trick, maybe it's a better explanation.
    By the way, why didn't she kill Xie Sun?
    She must know that only Zhang Wu Ji is naive enought to believe that story. Everyone else will know that there is no reason for Zhao Min to not kill her.

  16. #76
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Ming
    By the way, why didn't she kill Xie Sun?
    Probably lack of ability. Even with her 9 Yum White Bone Claws upgrade, I don't think Chow Chi Yerk was powerful enough to take on Tse Tsun straight up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Ming
    That's what I think about Zhuo Zhi Ruo too.
    But do you think it's illogical that she didn't kill Zhao Min that night. That was a very big mistake that shouldn't have happened. She could kill Zhang Wu Ji's sister, cut her ears, why couldn't she killed Zhao Min before putting her on the boat? And Da Sun too.
    Perhaps she would need ZM to send a boat to pick up ZWJ and co. back to the mainland. If ZM was dead, they would need a lot of time to prepare and wait for the right current to go back to the mainland. ZZR is an evil and scheming woman.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Probably lack of ability. Even with her 9 Yum White Bone Claws upgrade, I don't think Chow Chi Yerk was powerful enough to take on Tse Tsun straight up.
    I don't think so. At that time Xie Sun was badly poisoned, that's why he didn't dare to let Zhang Wu Ji know the truth and celebrated the wedding.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkamage
    Perhaps she would need ZM to send a boat to pick up ZWJ and co. back to the mainland. If ZM was dead, they would need a lot of time to prepare and wait for the right current to go back to the mainland. ZZR is an evil and scheming woman.
    Only if she was Jin Yong lol
    How could you come up with that idea?
    It's impossible for her to know Zhao Min will be alive or not, therefore she would never count on Zhao Min to send them aboat.
    It's a very critical idea!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Ming
    Only if she was Jin Yong lol
    How could you come up with that idea?
    It's impossible for her to know Zhao Min will be alive or not, therefore she would never count on Zhao Min to send them aboat.
    It's a very critical idea!
    ?? Of course she wouldn't know.. But I think that was her idea.
    You asked a question and I tried to answer it. Do you know a better answer already? If so, please enlighten me. I wouldn't laugh at someone's opinion that easily..

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