ZWJ- trapped in the past?

[Han Solo]

One of the most infuriating thing about ZWJ is his indecision about matters of love. His inability to commit to one woman causes arguably four women to suffer the angst and agony of loving him.

His cousin got killed because of him, his maid got send away from China forever, his supposed to be wife got jilted at the altar, his eventual partner got separated from her family.

Most of this may not come to past if ZWJ can just commit earlier.

But is it such a hedious thing that ZWJ is not able to commit himself? Is his inability a reflection of his mild mannered personality or rather a sign of the deep psychological insult that he had to weathered throught the years?

Think about it:-
1) The most important woman in his young life, his mother, commited suicide in front of him, at the same time that his dad died.

2) His first love, played him for a fool. Merely manipulating his love to get information about the dragon saber, while loving another person. Plus her whole family nearly cause his death.

3) He witnessed the enormous sacrifice that Emei's Kei Hui Fu made for her love.

4) He got stabbed by ZZR, a girl that he have no small ammount of feeling for.

5) The first time he saw Zhao Min, he got entrapped pretty hard.

So, ZWJ is rather unique in JY cannon for the ammount of hardship and heart-ache that he got from women. Therefore, we should consider his past when judging him for his "difficulties" with women.

Ramblings,
Han SOlo

[Trinie]

Hm.. maybe his past experiences with women did have an effect on his indecisive nature. I have always wondered who he truly loves the most... I thought it should be Zhao Min since he left with her in the end... But then again, he seemed to love ZZR and XZ too.

[Laviathan]

So, ZWJ is rather unique in JY cannon for the ammount of hardship and heart-ache that he got from women. Therefore, we should consider his past when judging him for his "difficulties" with women.

In my opinion, Wuji has a major Oedipus Complex. His mother, before she died, told him that "the prettier the woman, the more she will deceive you. Your mother is one of these women." The girls who Wuji later on find attracted to all deceived him in one way or another, and Wuji fell for it everytime... not because Wuji is stupid, but because subconsciously Wuji WANTS to be deceived, or better said: being deceitful is the reason why Wuji fell for those girls. They remind him of his mother.

[Han Solo]

ZWJ's being deceived does not seems to be limited to women only, so is it more of a reflection of how naive he is of the real world; rather than a weakness to the opposite sex?

[Candide]

Well he was deceived by almost everyone, but he seemed to prefer being deceived by pretty girls.

One of the most infuriating thing about ZWJ is his indecision about matters of love. His inability to commit to one woman causes arguably four women to suffer the angst and agony of loving him.

Bullshit, mate. Nobody could do any better than him in that situation - ie being loved by 4 equally beautiful girls with lovely personalities.

[green destiny]

Why do many accuse ZWJ being indecisive in the matter of love ??? This is always intriguing me. To me, since beginning I read the novel, it’s obvious that the girl he loves deeply is always ZM. Of course, it didn’t mean to be love at the first sight, but rather a gradual one, particularly after they spent lots of time together during their trip to pick up Xie Xun. He’s deeply touched by the kindness and care shown by other girls: ZZR (she’s the first girl he ever met when he’s young and have once shown great care), Yin Li, and Xiao Chao – but the one who takes him literally up-side-down is always ZM J. The problem is that she’s from the opposite site and considering the racial situation during that time, for him, it seems to be the wisest way to suppress whatever feeling he had for ZM.

Indeed coupling ZWJ and ZM is the most unique one in JY cannon, it’s just unfortunate that JY himself dares not to pass the boundary of racial identity fully. I’ve read JY’s most works and Liang Yu Sheng’s and I cannot remember any other couples who start their relationship as enemies but eventually fall in love with each other. The common plot is the variation of the couple meet each other in certain circumstance, fall in love, but then find out that their families are enemies, so the story is about how they maintain their love for each other. The key here is: they fall in love first; not like ZWJ and ZM who become enemies first then fell in love.

I was curious why nobody questions about GJ’s indecisiveness about marriage, either. He loved HR (so it’s supposed to be) but: (1) he didn’t care about how HR’s feeling when he believed that it’s HYS who killed his precious (and nevertheless among the most stupid and useless fighters in wuxia novels) 5 teachers – he blindly kept attacking HYS; (2) he didn’t even consider to listen first to what HR tried to talk – and indeed HR tried to talk to him few times during that time; (3) and, what about that stupid promise that he would marry the princess after he knew HR was safe ? Such a so-called decisive stand. He only cared about his “face” of not breaking his word, but never seriously considered HR’s feeling; (4) finally he managed to escape from the arranged marriage with the Mongolian princess through circumstance (Genghis Khan planned to launch attack to Song, which ended up with his mother’s death). It’s easy to say that you love somebody when it’s happy time, but when it’s bad time, well, to maintain it through steadfast action is another matter. GJ cared more about his revenge without regard to HR’s feeling toward this matter. If it’s HYS who murdered his stupid 5 teachers (and I think it’s not a big loss for wuxia world at that time), HR would suffer from it the way he suffered the lost, did he care about it ?

On the other hand, ZWJ’s actions (though he suppressed his feeling consciously) clearly showed how much he eventually loved ZM: (1) he broke the oath and promise he made to ZZR to kill ZM, though he still believed that ZM was the culprit who stole the sword and sabre and injured Yin Li; (2) he was sad when he remembered about ZM the time he was about to do ceremony with ZZR, but only felt guilty for ZZR as he jilted her at the altar; (3) he couldn’t think clearly when he saw XX’s hair on ZM’s hands so he chose to follow her – if it’s other person, I think, he would react calmer not swept by emotion like that; (4) he did feel relax and fortunate afterward, when he and ZM were on their way to whatever place ZM said to be where XX was; (5) considering his character, it’s really a great move to kiss a girl like he did onto ZM and then to bring her mingling with his subordinates during Shaolin crises; (6) he turned first to ZM when he thought of a way to defense Shaolin from Mongolian troops, but cared enough for her feeling not to press her with such a ridiculous request. Like ZZR finally told him at the end of their personal conversation (when ZM disappeared and he’d been looking for her around): “To me, you would never show such great care.”; (7) he looked for her seriously when she disappeared at Shaolin – something he never did beforehand with any other persons in his life.

ZWJ grew up from a gentle-hearted (that’s why he’s a better doctor that a good fighter) but shaky guy in the beginning of his leadership of Ming Clan to become a man on his own when he no longer suppressed his feeling for ZM. I think it’s partly true that in his subconscious, “being deceitful” is the quality he’s looking for in the girls. Not of the reason he wanted to be deceived, but to overcome his mother’s spell. Deep down I think he wanted to escape from the trauma of his mother’s being deceitful to his father with reaction like: “this time it’ll be different, she’s clever but she will be honest to me.” It’s true, finally, for the case of ZM. Once she decided to love him, she did give everything for being with him. Actually ZM never deceived him during their personal relationship. She did it only when they were on public business J: when they were posited as head of Ming Clan and as member of royal family. But, once the business was over, she helped him lots in crises. XC and YL were not just strong and clever enough to break through his mother’s spell, ZZR was too conflicted on her own. How did he end up if ZM wasn’t bold enough (and ready to sacrifice her pride as a girl from noble family) to take him out of his wedding ? Someday he would wake up with the realization that he had married a woman who resembled much to his mother in term of deceitfulness: stealing, framing other for the crime she had done, causing his god-father being easily caught by Beggar’s Clan). Likely he would take his late father’s path: commit suicide. While ZZR was the exact copy of his mother; ZM was the opposite. Yep, ZWJ was trapped in the past at the beginning, but escaped from that finally when he was with ZM. ZM was a counter effect of his mother’s image in his life, in every aspects.

About Xiao Chao, who wouldn’t be touched by such total devotion ? But, appreciating devotion is different from love. I think ZWJ did care lots for XC as in her he saw a reflection of his own psyche – of being lonely deep in the heart. XC was devoted but she’s not emotionally secured enough (with such a mother like Taykis, who would feel secured ?) to expand her heart and understand him truly. She sort of clung to him like a pet (actually ZWJ-XC relationship reminded me of my own relationship with my dog. She also devotes to me much and I love her for that).

ZZR was complex personality: insecurity combined with lots of ambition proved to be disastrous. ZZR’ parents was among the most ambitious in HSDS (if not ambitious who could they take themselves as emperor and queen ?), plus she’s brought up by the most ambitious clan leader (yeah, the great nuts Mi Jue). It’s ZZR who dreamed to become a queen, while ZWJ preferred living peacefully in seclusion. Their relationship was like a queen with her attendance, I think. It reminds me of the common social phenomena of “queen bee”. I don’t think she’s ever capable of loving somebody else truly. She had to learn to love herself first better. I love the ending where she gave up position as leader of Er-Mei and chose to become a nun. In that case, I think, she had chance to learn to love herself and so others, not of their attributes but as human. She’s too much burdened with physical and material attributes. Her character reminds me of Lai Sheng Nan of “Lofty Water, Jade Verdant” (Liang Yu Sheng’s), only she’s lack of Sheng Nan’s determination which overcome needs to create any good images. ZZR cared for her image, in the beginning. It’s until she’s emotionally slapped on the face by ZM who successfully stole her bridegroom in front of public that she started showing her real face.

It’s a pity that in one of his revised edition (I don’t know how many revision he had made, and I don’t want to know) JY spoilt the whole outline of the story by making ZZR appeared again (in the first edition, ZWJ only gave her one promise and she already used it to make him become head of Er-Mei Clan; so what the hell did it come from that she could ask him not to marry ZM ? Totally ridiculous and showed, in my opinion, that JY was weak when it came to matter of ethnic boundary. To remember that he even bothered to change the character of that horny Taoist student in ROCH just because the name used was criticized by many people – that’s stupid.

By the way, I’m also amazed that JY’s heroes who successfully broke some parts of tradition always ended up in seclusion: YG, ZWJ, and LHC. The one who followed tradition faithfully, GJ, remained in public life until his end. Interesting.

Talking about indecisive, I think JY is worst. He keeps revising his novels – that’s stupid, in my opinion. Rather than pouring his energy on revising his novels, why doesn’t he instead write different stories altogether and develop another legend in wuxia fiction ?!

Enough for my defense. Consider myself as ZWJ’s lawyer and advocate (but definitely I’m a GJ’s prosecutor). Among the 3 Condor Trilogy’s heroes I like the most ZWJ then YG. I dislike GJ.

[Candide]

Wow, what a lengthy and silly rant.

To me, since beginning I read the novel, it’s obvious that the girl he loves deeply is always ZM.

To you is one thing, but what JY wrote about ZWJ's thoughts is another, which is what really counts. He WAS indecisive.

Your prejudice against the Gongnan freaks is pathetic. They kept their promise in a silly competition to go to the Mongolian desert and find Li Ping and Guo Jing, and raise him with good basic martial arts and morals. They built him a good background for him to become the great Eagle Shooting Hero that everyone respected. Their devotion to GJ was greatly admired in wulin. They were like GJ's parents. Now, if someone killed your parents, wouldn't you be angry? Every evidence pointed to HYS at that time. Hey, even HR thought that her father did it for a while. Who gives a shit about feelings then ? Because ZWJ cared too much about how his girls felt, he ended up being controlled by them and got called a "wimp" by any self-respecting male.

And hey, you don't have to have the best martial arts in the world to be considered worthy. Even if you were: HYS, OYF and Yideng were useless. HYS was a garderner on a remote island. OYF was a snake catcher also living in remote Western mountains. Yideng was living in seclusion with the outside world as a monk.

(3) and, what about that stupid promise that he would marry the princess after he knew HR was safe ?

Two reasons: Because he wanted to keep his promise (people nowadays don't give a shit about promises, apparently, that's why our world is so ****ed up) and because he was only 19, for ****'s sake. At 19, you're still half a kid.

You seem to go all the way to justify ZWJ and ZM, despite all the racist stuff and all, but you can't use any of that to realise that in that society, HYS and HR were considered evil/bad people. Nobody wanted to associate with them.

It’s a pity that in one of his revised edition (I don’t know how many revision he had made, and I don’t want to know) JY spoilt the whole outline of the story by making ZZR appeared again (in the first edition, ZWJ only gave her one promise and she already used it to make him become head of Er-Mei Clan; so what the hell did it come from that she could ask him not to marry ZM ? Totally ridiculous and showed, in my opinion, that JY was weak when it came to matter of ethnic boundary.

Cut the ethnic bullshit. So what if ZZR wanted to ask ZWJ this or that. He already made up his mind then. Besides, the promise that ZWJ gave her had certain exceptions. ZZR couldn't ask him to do anything against morals.

To remember that he even bothered to change the character of that horny Taoist student in ROCH just because the name used was criticized by many people – that’s stupid.

Stupid ? Not yourself, I hope. That Taoist, Yuan Zhi Ping, was a well-respected man. Making him the rapist was a bad idea.

By the way, I’m also amazed that JY’s heroes who successfully broke some parts of tradition always ended up in seclusion: YG, ZWJ, and LHC. The one who followed tradition faithfully, GJ, remained in public life until his end. Interesting.

Only YG ended up in a cave. ZWJ and LHC didn't want to become leaders in wulin anymore but it didn't mean that they lived the rest of their lives in a cave either.

GJ followed tradition faithfully eh? I guess he was wrong to disobey his sifus in numerous occasions. And he was wrong to call the Song emperor a moron right in front of the Mongolians (when he explained to them that he didn't fight for the emperor, but for the people).

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by green destiny
By the way, I’m also amazed that JY’s heroes who successfully broke some parts of tradition always ended up in seclusion: YG, ZWJ, and LHC. The one who followed tradition faithfully, GJ, remained in public life until his end. Interesting.

As Candide said that GJ lived for the people and die for his people.

Most hero that went into seclusion are people who can't stand how evil the world is and its people. They were hero who doesn't want to deal with the problem of mankind, so they decided to live a life without people and their problem. They were tired of it.

While GJ went into seclusion for about 13 years(time period of between LOCH and ROCH) and came back out just to protect his people. Not all of these people were good, but he still tried to protect them and doesn't care what kind of people they are. He would even sacrifice his own life and his family for his people or his country. He also sacrificed his time, time which he could be used to enjoy life like those who went into seclusion. To me GJ is an unselfish person that stayed in the public.

[Laviathan]

Welcome to the forum.

Originally posted by green destiny
Why do many accuse ZWJ being indecisive in the matter of love ??? This is always intriguing me. To me, since beginning I read the novel, it’s obvious that the girl he loves deeply is always ZM. Of course, it didn’t mean to be love at the first sight, but rather a gradual one, particularly after they spent lots of time together during their trip to pick up Xie Xun. He’s deeply touched by the kindness and care shown by other girls: ZZR (she’s the first girl he ever met when he’s young and have once shown great care), Yin Li, and Xiao Chao – but the one who takes him literally up-side-down is always ZM J. The problem is that she’s from the opposite site and considering the racial situation during that time, for him, it seems to be the wisest way to suppress whatever feeling he had for ZM.

Zhang Wuji is a passive lover. The more love you show him, the more he will return. In the end, it was Zhao Min who sacrificed everything for him, and that's why he chose her. It's not 100% out of gratitude, but close. Plus: he seemed to be physically attracted to Zhao Min the most.

I was curious why nobody questions about GJ’s indecisiveness about marriage, either. He loved HR (so it’s supposed to be) but: (1) he didn’t care about how HR’s feeling when he believed that it’s HYS who killed his precious (and nevertheless among the most stupid and useless fighters in wuxia novels) 5 teachers – he blindly kept attacking HYS; (2) he didn’t even consider to listen first to what HR tried to talk – and indeed HR tried to talk to him few times during that time; (3) and, what about that stupid promise that he would marry the princess after he knew HR was safe ? Such a so-called decisive stand. He only cared about his “face” of not breaking his word, but never seriously considered HR’s feeling; (4) finally he managed to escape from the arranged marriage with the Mongolian princess through circumstance (Genghis Khan planned to launch attack to Song, which ended up with his mother’s death). It’s easy to say that you love somebody when it’s happy time, but when it’s bad time, well, to maintain it through steadfast action is another matter. GJ cared more about his revenge without regard to HR’s feeling toward this matter. If it’s HYS who murdered his stupid 5 teachers (and I think it’s not a big loss for wuxia world at that time), HR would suffer from it the way he suffered the lost, did he care about it ?

I'm sorry, but no matter what our opinions are about the Jiangnan Qiguai as a reader, we cannot blame Guo Jing for loving his teachers and being saddened by their death. Yes, the Freaks might be stubborn, their martial arts level might be low... WHATEVER. What WE think about them does not matter in this situation... To Guo Jing, they were the ones who raised him.

Yes, Guo Jing is also stubborn. He once promised Huazheng to marry her, but later on he met Huang Rong. Later on, he thought: "I must keep my promise." So he put his values/principles above his own happiness. That is very noble, but also extremely silly, 'cause in doing so he would eventually ruin the lives of three people. The problem with Guo Jing is: he's not a philosopher, not a thinker... He's just a simple guy who believes in certain values and principles. He was raised with the idea of "avenging my father's death", so when his teachers were killed he automatically wanted to avenge their deaths as well. Only in the end of LOCH, after he witnessed the agony of war at Kwarizm, he finally grew up from a simple country boy to a hero with his own life philosophy.

On the other hand, ZWJ’s actions (though he suppressed his feeling consciously) clearly showed how much he eventually loved ZM: (1) he broke the oath and promise he made to ZZR to kill ZM, though he still believed that ZM was the culprit who stole the sword and sabre and injured Yin Li; Enough for my defense. Consider myself as ZWJ’s lawyer and advocate (but definitely I’m a GJ’s prosecutor). Among the 3 Condor Trilogy’s heroes I like the most ZWJ then YG. I dislike GJ.

Zhang Wuji on the other hand promised to avenge his cousin's death but did not do so. To many of us, Wuji is a silly little man without principles and a backbone. Actually, Wuji has never wanted to take up the role as avenger (as a child, he only wanted his parents to be alive, and did not want to take revenge). Wuji places his emotions, his feelings above principles. While Guo Jing does the complete opposite. Wuji has all the right to do so. But that does not mean that Guo Jing is wrong.

[Anonymous]

1. LOCH says courage and individuality makes the man,
ROCH goes beyond that with parenthood and GuoXiang,
HSDS seems to explore the interpersonal relationships more.
Meaning, the women are not as supporting/(dumbed out) as the previous two.
ZWJ's indecisive-ness represents the shaky(?) relationship between male and female? [ie misunderstandings, etc] And this time explores more about the female (ie. got more female main characters).
.
2. [Forgot my reason #2. ]

[Trinie]

To green destiny, Very good points you raised. I never thought of ZZR being like ZWJ's mom. You know, I never felt that ZZR truly loved ZWJ. It seemed like she just wanted to win him from ZM to have a sense of victory. I heard that she is beautiful just like ZM too but her beauty was just different from ZM's beauty. About XZ, I think ZWJ cared for her and felt sorry for her. I don't know if he really ever loved her. I think the love he had for her was more of a sibling type love. I think he felt that way towards his cousin too.

[Han Solo]

Wonderful post by greendestiny.

I'm interested in how everyone here view ZWJ and ZZR's wedding.

1) Why did he want to marry ZZR?
2) Did he love ZZR?
3) Did ZZR love ZWJ?
4) If ZWJ loved ZZR, is leaving ZZR at the altar, the worst thing that he can do? i.e. did it totally made ZZR into the monster that she became?
5) If ZWJ did not love ZZR, is proposing to ZZR the worst thing that he can do to himself or others?
6) Should you marry the one htat you love the most, or the most convenient to marry?

Han Solo

[Candide]

Originally posted by Han Solo
1) Why did he want to marry ZZR?

Who wouldn't ?

2) Did he love ZZR?

Yeah, a bit.

3) Did ZZR love ZWJ?

Obviously

4) If ZWJ loved ZZR, is leaving ZZR at the altar, the worst thing that he can do? i.e. did it totally made ZZR into the monster that she became?

Wasn't the end of the world. But you know, chicks aren't rational.

5) If ZWJ did not love ZZR, is proposing to ZZR the worst thing that he can do to himself or others?

He did, and before the truth was revealed, ZZR was the best for him.

6) Should you marry the one htat you love the most, or the most convenient to marry?

Both, if I could.

[PJ]

He already made up his mind then

So for once Wuji did make up his mind? Could it be?

[Dirt]

Xiao Feng lived in the past just as much as Zhang Wu Ji.

[green destiny]

RESPONSE TO HAN SOLO:
Thanks, Han Solo. I love making discussion HOT ! Let’s say that inviting others to flame up is one of my specific talent In my opinion, then:
(1) Because condition at that time made everything seemed to be convenient to marry ZZR: (a) ZZR was the girl his yi fu had given bless to be his wife (and he cared lots for what his yi fu said); (b) in his subconscious he chose to run away from dealing with his true feeling toward ZM (yeah, not a noble act it was – but, then, don’t we all in some degree try to run away/avoid problems we know we have to deal with ?); (c) ZZR had played her most powerful card against any doubtful men: threatening with her life (in this short life of mine I had encountered few specific women who emotionally blackmailed others to get what they wanted from their children and men: “if you don’t obey me/fulfill my wish, I would die of being upset bla bla bla”) – she tried to hang herself upon seeing ZWJ meet ZM in that small shop, which was witnessed also by one of ZWJ’s subordinates. ZWJ was then sort of pushed by his subordinates who knew something special went on between him and ZM to formalize his relationship with ZZR in wedding. This sort of emotional blackmail, women can read, men likely have no clue, unless they have bumped into one personally and somehow manage to escape J. It’s just a matter of different psyche.

Why did I suspect ZZR’s trying to commit suicide is a more calculated act than purely out of broken-hearted ? Because of her ambitious nature. She wanted to stay as Er-Mei clan’s leader, she even had this idea of becoming an empress herself once Ming Clan overthrows Mongols. I don’t think such a strong character with big ambition like her would end her life just because of ZWJ. No way. Even what made ZZR finally regret when everything started to collapse and be out of her hold was Yin Li’s haunting her, while she still believed that YL had died in the small island. ZZR herself, I think, wasn’t such a mean character like her teacher Mi Jue; but she had too much ambition. If indeed she loved ZWJ and accepted him as who he was (with his flaws and quiet nature), she could just give up all those ambitions of being the leader of Er-Mei and queen. She didn’t. ZZR was one of the most intriguing female characters in the whole JY universe, in my opinion (the other was WYY – they were somewhat similar in certain aspects. WYY had DY closely on her tail for back up; ZZR had SQS to be used as her wish. DY’s character was somewhat similar to SQS, though in term of righteousness DY was more respected). ZZR herself also stated in the end of the story, something like: “When you met her in that small shop, I knew already to whom you had given your heart. But I still dreamt that after we’re married you would change your heart.” There’s a different from making best effort and simply being persistence out of not wanting to let go. ZZR had this big problem of not able to give up, of let go; and considering her background and character, it wasn’t a wonder. That’s why I love that ending in which she become a nun, as therefore she could learn the most important aspect in life: to love herself as whoever and whatever she was first.

2) I think ZWJ basically was always fond of ZZR – out of that memorable one day they spent together as children; but was it love ? I don’t think so. Being very fond of and wanting to treasure, yes, that’s why ZWJ respected her. But, since he also stated that he’s also afraid of her, I guess deep down he knew that she’s no longer exactly the same gentle innocent little girl he once had met at Han Shui.

(3) In my opinion, ZZR believed that she loved ZWJ and that she believed that she had done her best for being with him. But, how could she really love somebody but also intentionally cheated him at the same time ? This was different from YSS’ matter. YSS did those bad things to the 3rd Wudang hero before she met and fell for ZCS. Her problem was that she didn’t have guts to admit the ill deed she had committed to him when they still lived peacefully in Fire Ice Island. So, no wonder ZCS fell into emotional devastation upon finding out that his wife was the culprit who had sneakily stolen the sabre and injured his martial brother. He heard it at the worst time and situation. If ZWJ was that stubborn like GJ in term of keeping oath and promise (so, by normal standard was honorable and had backbone) and eventually killed ZM for the crime done in the island, what had happened when he someday found out ? YSS tried to hide her crime from ZCS and she successfully did it for 10 years; yet it was found out. So, likely it was a matter of time when ZZR would be found out by somebody and leaked out to ZWJ, if not ZWJ accidentally found out himself. Did ZZR ever think the horrible consequence of her framing up ZM and asking ZWJ to make oath to kill her ? Was that a sign of love ? Tell me, do any of you ever think of loving somebody but at the same time framing him/her up to kill somebody else to cover up your crime ?

(4) Since my stand was that ZWJ didn’t love ZZR the way he loved ZM, leaving ZZR at the altar wasn’t the worst thing he could do. The worst thing he could do was to marry ZZR (and he nearly did that !!!). It wasn’t ZWJ or ZM who had turned ZZR the monster she became. She was already a monster when she submitted herself to her si fu’s crazy wish, instead of just committing suicide: in this respect, not betraying anybody and paying back her si fu’s kindness in bringing her up with her life. Jilted at the altar, right at the moment when she believed that she had won everything in life – the prospect of being one of the most powerful kung fu master in the wulin with “9 Yin”, and getting ZWJ from ZM – was a major trigger to quicken the show of her real face; but it wasn’t the cause at all. The fundamental cause was already in her tend-to-be ambitious nature, which was strengthened through the upbringing by her ambitious parents and si fu. Sooner or later she would anyway show her real nature. If ZWJ did marry ZZR, I don’t think, he’s tough enough to keep a hold on ZZR’s ambition. Likely he would be driven by ZZR: he might end up on the throne – a position he didn’t aim for and completely wasn’t suitable for his quiet nature. Once she became an empress, no doubt she would be a powerful one. Sooner or later ZWJ would just become her lap-dog like SQS in her hands.

(5) I don’t remember any chapters that showing ZWJ make initiatives to propose to ZZR. He was more likely ordered by his yi fu to marry ZZR. Married to ZZR wasn’t his original idea at all. He even showed reluctance of curing ZZR because it meant he had to be in close physical contact with her. It was his yi fu who made him finally agree. If there was any clever things ZWJ did in this case of arranged marriage, it was his making up reasons to change it to become an engagement first; instead of immediate marriage. Upon which, ZZR said to him (I didn’t remember words by words, but something like this in tone): “If I were Ms Zhao, you would have immediately agreed to it (the immediate marriage).”

Particularly in this case of arranged marriage, I dislike XX’s decision. He knew from beginning that it was ZZR who had betrayed them. It does make sense if he wanted to keep the truth himself in the beginning, when he and ZWJ were still poisoned. But, when he asked ZWJ to marry ZZR, he and ZWJ had already been cured and actually he could confront her without much ado. He knew also that ZWJ had deeper feeling for ZM, yet he still made ZWJ agree to marry ZZR. I can think only one reason why, despite what he knew all along, XX still preferred treacherous ZZR: as a member of Ming Clan who had been fighting against Mongols, he naturally disliked the idea of his foster son getting a Mongolian girl. It’s bitter, I think, here how racial prejudice overcomes fatherly love. If he truly cared about ZWJ the way ZWJ cared about him, I think, he would think twice to trap ZWJ into a marriage like that. But, no, here we saw how stuck-up XX with his own prejudice that he blinded himself of the later consequence. He might reason that he didn’t want to see tragedy of ZCS and YSS repeat itself in ZWJ and ZM because they were eventually from opposite sites; considering if he might not know in details the complex reason why ZCS took such desperate decision to end his life. But, wasn’t it a greater tragedy to marry somebody who had betrayed one closely ? XX had suffered all along because he had been betrayed bitterly by the very person he had put trust unquestionably: his teache, Sheng Kun. When ZWJ later found out how he had married a woman, whom his yi fu had known all along to be treacherous, wasn’t it just make him feel exactly that pain XX had felt ? Or, was it, in his subconscious XX wished to see his supposed-to-be-most-beloved foster son tasted the similar pain of being betrayed by his closest persons: his wife and his yi fu ?

It makes me shudder to think that the common discussion is often on ZWJ’s weakness on being indecisive thus he hurt those 4 women who supposedly loved him; his lack of being a good fighter…, but nobody asked how much he had been betrayed by people around throughout his life. Why, to me, it’s only natural that he gave his love to ZM, simply because she was the one who remained true to him.

(1) His parents chose to commit suicide together without even bothering to check his whereabouts first. Clearly it was because of his parents’ lack of inability that he was captured by the Mongols, who then had tortured him to tell them about XX’s whereabouts. After all those hard days in the Mongols’ hands, he could reunite only with his parents’ corpses;
(2) His mother, instead of apologizing or even consoling him of what had happened since they had left Fire Ice Island, told him to have vengeance on those people who had pushed their death and to be careful with beautiful women for being treacherous;
(3) Even it was never stated clearly by others, ZWJ (it was shown through one of his conversation with that doctor of Butterfly Valley) knew how actually his tai si fu and Wudang martial uncles had thought that his parents’ death was appropriate. This stand was quietly shown on the way they didn’t want to take this matter long with those other so-claimed-themselves good clans who had pushed the death, merely for XX and dragon sabre. Later on they easily judged him kill Mo. They are supposed to know better about ZWJ’s characters who was even able to let go those very people who had caused his parents’ death, so it’s supposed to make them think twice before accusing him. Even when ZWJ didn’t kill them and, upon ZM’s advice, left them behind to find the real culprit, they didn’t use their brain better: if he had killed Mo, why didn’t he kill the other 4 altogether so his crime would not leak out ? It’s because they were already full of prejudice;
(4) Those martial people whom he had helped in difficulty with his medical knowledge proved to be mostly culprits;
(5) That Wu and Cu families, including his first love, who played fool on him for a piece of information;
(6) Ming Clan’s members – they tried their best to prevent him from being involved with ZM, even when they did know that ZZR had done all ill deed and was the one who had betrayed ZWJ in the island (near to the end of the story, when ZZR was in great fear of being haunted by YL and later cried in the arms of ZWJ, all Ming Clan’ members who witnessed the scene then retreat in silence because they hoped ZWJ would end up with ZZR still. They didn’t care at all who and what ZWJ was in nature. They only wanted his physical and material attributes – that was good at martial arts and medical knowledge, good at leadership through cooperative efforts (he managed to unify the separated Ming Clan’s members and later the fractioned wulin power). In their opinion, as long as he wasn’t with ZM, even a female Chen You Liang or Sheng Kun was better. Tell me, do any of you appreciate your friends have this kind of attitude to you ??? These were the kind of people who wants to have their cake and eat it too.
(7) ZYZ who aimed for becoming emperor (in the end of the story).

But, I think, all those above were pale compared to what ZZR and XX did onto him. They trapped him to agree to kill ZM – just because she was a Mongol – and to marry, without regard to what actually he wanted out of his life. XX was even worse since he didn’t bother to make things clear first with ZWJ before he went to become a monk. He wasn’t courageous enough to face-to-face explain how he had trapped ZWJ into marriage and agreement to kill ZM out of his narrow-minded attitude. All he left was a craft in the cell, which, at least, ZWJ didn’t forget to check thus confirm everything he already knew about ZZR stealing the sword and sabre and framing ZM for every ill deeds.

By the way, why many blamed ZWJ for jilting ZZR at the altar, while nobody blamed her at the first place for contributing into the scene ? She’s the one who had schemed everything which ended up in the wedding. What made ZWJ’s act of jilting her at the altar heavier or more significant than the betrayal she did in the island ? Wasn’t she only deserved what she deserved ? If any of you had a partner like ZZR, who betrayed you secretly, and it was just right at the moment you were about to get married you found out the whole scheme (somebody leaking out to you), what were you going to do ? Still continued with the wedding process and then later did annulment (but it would be complicated if your partner decided not to let you have the annulment) or just jilted her/him at the altar ?

Tell me, if any of you have been betrayed by many people in your life just like ZWJ, to whom do you finally give your heart entirely ? ZWJ might have this strong weakness of judging people’s characters and hearts in the conscious level, but after so many bitterness, at least, in the subconscious level, he must have known.

(6) My opinion is to marry somebody you love the most,
simply because it will give a strong ground for the next
generation. If you marry out of convenience, sooner or later the bad sides of your partner will seem to be bigger and bigger and bigger, which may end up in quarrels. It’s okay if you decide not to have any kids, but if you decide to have some, then you have in the first place, in my opinion, betray your to-be-children. Do you want to have parents who’s married out of love or out of convenience ? Interpersonal relationship is never easy, so why make it more complicated by marrying somebody out of convenience ? In the past, it works. In this modern world, it’s simply outdated.

[green destiny]

Special note to CANDIDE who has bothered to response to my post hotly: first, thank you – you had your own good points , even though your stand was different than mine; second, may I ask, have you ever asked yourself why I did mention GJ in my post instead of focusing on my analysis on ZWJ’s nature related to women ? Among all the response to my post, yours was the only one which contain harsh words which directly and indirectly point to the way I presented MY thoughts: from “silly rants”, “your prejudice… is pathetic”, “cut the ethnic bullshit” to “stupid ? not yourself, I hope.” … Be careful . I focused on labeling the ACTION of the fictitious characters and of Jin Yong in my post, your reaction had more emotional spice content directed to the way of MY thoughts, and no longer focused on the discussion. The reason why I mentioned about GJ and putting labels on ACTION of the characters and Jin Yong was to provoke certain people who would react the way you did J Why ? Because I wanted to check my theory. You confirmed that. For that, I’m really grateful to you.

CANDIDE, do you remember Du Gu Swordplay style concept ? It’s one of the sword style which, accordingly, focused on the open point of every movements of the opponents. Thus it relies lots on the ability to read circumstance and speed to react. What do you think if this kind of theory is applied in real life ? Reading other people’s mind through their reaction on whatever you throw in front of them (sometimes you can use bad words, sometimes good words, according to the situation) and then putting your act accordingly by directing their response ??? Just think of it. In this world, there are some people who are able to apply Du Gu swordplay style CONCEPT into mental and emotional battles. If this discussion is an open business negotiation, I have halfway won over you. So, I hope that next time if you find yourself being provoked so that you feel this urge to release in the form of harsh words, watch your reaction, as an experienced one can intentionally direct your reaction toward certain matters simply by doing similarly like what I just did. In a forum like this it’s okay, because it won’t do any effects and we are all anynomous. But, in personal life, I think, you’ll find yourself be controlled by people most of the time.

Let’s take example on ZWJ and GJ (again). You said that ZWJ was a “wimp” because he cared too much for the feeling of the girls, so he was controlled by them. Yes, I agree, ZWJ was too gentle in nature that he was swept over by the girls. It’s his weakness. But, in this standard, you cannot say that GJ was a strong one, either. After all he was controlled by Wanyen Hong Lieh, and later succumbed to OYF’s schemes. All his young life he was under the control of his mother and teachers who weighted importance on the idea of vengeance to the extreme point. Why “extreme point” ?

(1) Sun Tzu’s famous lines: “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not te enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” GJ knew himself to be slow learner and not fast enough in reading situation or people’s characters; so was it crazy to just go along with all those wish to take vengeance the way he did as in term of trickiness, clearly he would never win over Wanyen Hong Lieh. Neither any of his 7 teachers. Even at the end, it was HR who managed to capture Wanyen Hong Lieh for him. Without HR, likely he would spend his life with this obsession of taking vengeance which would never be fulfilled. Why he failed to read the situation ? Because he’s under the control of his mother and 7 teachers who wanted him to take vengeance over his late father.

(2) GJ had passing wonder on why HYS didn’t pull harsh hands on him and his 1st teacher during the battle at Yan-i-Law (I may be wrong spelling the name), but he let his anger which was intentionally schemed by OYF and Yang Hong to control him. In this case, wasn’t OYF and YH successfully control his reaction against HR’s plea to try to investigate first thoroughly ? If he managed to kill HYS with the help of Xuan Zhen Sect and his 1st teacher only later to find out that OYF and Yang Hong were the real culprits, what’s his reaction ? Chasing after OYF and Yang Hong until death ? Since anyway, he would end up chasing after OYF and Yang Hong for vengeance, the scheme to divert his attention first to HYS succeeded in controlling his choice of life: chasing after people for vengeance.

(3) GJ couldn’t manage courage to just break up relationship with Huan Zhen and, for once, become sort of the culprit, because he was too much under control of the image of his late father, who was supposed to be righteous and steadfast. He was brought up by his mother with all those fantastic images of his late father, adding spices to his stubborn nature. Wasn’t it completely horrible to marry somebody but knew your heart think of somebody else ? What’s the difference between him and ZWJ in this matter ? After all, like ZWJ, that marriage agreement was made not of his initiative, but of being arranged by Genghis Khan upon his mother’s approval. It’s a different case if he was in love first with Huan Zhen, proposed to her, then changed his heart when he met HR. Why didn’t he once set his heart free to decide who he wanted to be with, instead of fulfilling the wish of people around him (Genghis Khan, his mother, Tuli, Jebe, etc) ? If you were in the position of HR, what did you honestly think of GJ ?

(4) After over 40 years, GJ couldn’t even let go his anger against OYF who had killed his 5 teachers. Was it good, you think, to give such example to your younger generation “hey, never forget those people who killed anybody close to you even though those very people who had been involved were dead long time ago” ?. One of the weakness of GJ was to forgive truly and let go of the past. OYF had died and he had paid much for all those ill deed he had conducted: he had lost his beloved son and later lost his memory and identity, and become a wandering nobody. In this case, in my opinion, GJ was much controlled by the good image of his teachers, and the bad image of OYF; while eventually they were no longer existed, they had been perished inside their tombs. Besides, OYF had done one good deed in the last years of his life: becoming YG’s foster father and teaching him his kung fu style so that YG managed to be alive under the Xuan Shen Sect’s pressure.

(5) Regarding YG and XLN relationship, GJ went in opposition without respecting those who were involved. He was actually once in the same position, opposed to get HR’s hands for marriage. In this case, instead of reflecting on his own experience, he just simply jumped into the control of the society. He could say to YG and XLN: “okay, do as what you wished, but better you went into seclusion, so you didn’t create unnecessary disturbance in the society.” No, he didn’t do that. He was way too angry, which made me wonder: was it because his wish to unite YG with GF wasn’t fulfilled ? Or, was that because he truly held the tradition ?

GJ’s life was themed around his enemies: first, the culprits who had killed his father and teachers; later, the Mongols which had tried to invade Song. He was sort of controlled by his enemies. ZWJ, in this respect, was controlled by girls in interpersonal relationship, but less controlled by his enemies. He didn’t spend his young life chasing after those people who had pushed his parents’ death or who had injured, or fooled on him, he spent his energy to build community – that was united Ming Clan and later the whole wulin. Being yang male, GJ’s nature was aggressive so his life was colored with the shedding of blood – other people’s blood; on the other hand, being yin male, ZWJ’s was softer and that’s what made him more supportive to the appreciation of life. GJ was a good fighter, ZWJ a good doctor. We need both. Without GJ’s types this world will be a lame one; without ZWJ it will way be too full of destruction. So, in my stand: if you can praise GJ’s quality, then I can show his flaws; on the other hand, if I can praise ZWJ’s quality, you are free to complain about his flaws. Just keep our focus on the content of the discussion. “Discussion is the exchange of knowledge; argumentation is the exchange of ignorance.” Sorry if there were my words and opinions you think personally offensive. I didn’t mean to

Cheers

[green destiny]

TaiHan, I love your signature “THE LIMIT” – it’s good

I don’t agree with your opinion about those heroes who went into seclusion. In the case of JY’s heroes: YG, ZWJ, and LHC we didn’t get clear pictures of how they led their life after they left wulin business. So, I take another example from Zhang Yi Mou’s “HERO”. Do you think Can Jian who let go the Emperor and then lived in seclusion with Fei Xue was the type of person who couldn’t stand the world – with its beauty and evil ? I don’t think so. He lived up the world’s part of pain, too. During that era, the small kingdoms continually fought over each other out of their leaders’ ambition. Because he could see what the Emperor planned to do (to build platform for stable united kingdom) he then let him go, even he had to deal with Fei Xue’s anger. He could just leave Fei Xue behind and looked for another woman to fill her place, but he didn’t. He stayed and took the pain of his understanding about “tien sha”, about letting go. He cared for Fei Xue and, I think, more than anything he wished her to be able, someday, to let go of her vengeful idea and live peacefully by accepting that life had its hardship and pain but what’s important is that they lived. Can you imagine the pain of living with somebody you loved dearly but were so full with anger and hatred to everybody, including you ? Can you imagine the hardship he took of caring her while being aware of what had been continually happening in the outside, of the struggle of the power among leaders which didn’t care that it was their folk who paid the highest price, of the vengeful ideas around of those who had lost their loved ones in the continual wars ?

YG left for seclusion after accomplishing one big task and he knew that it’s his limitation – he just didn’t have the heart to be a leader of anything, he’s a loner basically. ZWJ left upon seeing that it was better to give way to those people who aimed for position – since after all he had done his best, to secure the platform for the cooperation; LHC similarly did the same since at that time no longer there were powerful ambitious leaders eyeing on certain position of control. YG was out of sight, due to his nature (yeah, at least he well apply Sun Tzu’s principle in his life about knowing the limitation of his own), ZWJ left since circumstance no longer needed his presence and his quiet nature would always prefer quiet life better, LHC was also the same – he’s basically a free-natured person so enjoying life around with his wife was the best. A hero, in my opinion, is somebody who knows well his/herself thus enables to act according to whatever situation requires him/her. When times come for them to act, they simply act in accordance with their talent; when times come for them to retreat, then they just retreat. For every person there’s a specific place for them in this big world and time.

Ah, by the way, I don’t mean to start a discussion about “HERO” in this forum. I just brought it up for illustration, and to make my points clearer

[green destiny]

Laviathan, thank you for welcoming me in the forum. To comment on your stand: I don’t agree with you at that point that” ZWJ was a silly little man without principles and backbone”. My opinion is that:

1) He knew ZM too well deep down; so though he didn’t want to admit it consciously, he must have sensed that the crime conducted in the island wasn’t ZM’s style. If it were really ZM who had done all, since she had killed YL, likely she would have killed all at once thus not let her crime be leaked out and the real whereabouts of the sword and sabre were well hidden – ZM was too clever and willfull to do things incalculated like that. Plus, ZM did send boat to pick them up. I think, at this point, he must have strongly sensed that something wasn’t in the right place. Besides, the open nature of ZM made her not the type who, out of jealousy, killed YL;

(2) When they accidentally met for the first time after the island’s incident, he didn’t see her bring heaven sword with her; while he knew that ZM wouldn’t be that stupid to leave house without it, particularly if she went to a dangerous place like Beggar’s Clan’s meeting. Plus ZM didn’t show any fears at seeing him again, which wasn’t natural for somebody who committed such crime.

So overall, I think, the reason why he didn’t kill ZM was not only because he loved ZM deep down, but because he somehow already suspected that ZM wasn’t the culprit. Only, he didn’t have courage to investigate further, thus created unnecessary havoc in the supposed-to-be wedding. I think, if he just denied what his heart already knew and suspected, that’s what made him a “man without principles and backbones”.

If he did fulfill his oath and promise to kill ZM upon seeing her again, did it make him “a big man with principle and backbone” ? The ability to act according situation and take the consequence of being labeled names by others, in my opinion, is more valuable than that kind of attitude which only follows what have been promised regardless the change of situation and the new flow of information and knowledge. When people label somebody good, does it mean that person truly good ? In my opinion, it’s relative – that person maybe good by some standards according to some people; but for others, that person maybe bad. But, what made one opinion overcome others if everything is relative and depends on the very person who perceives it ?

ENOUGH FOR MY RAMBLINGS, THEN. I THINK I HAVE DONE WITH THIS TOPIC. UNTIL WE MEET AGAIN LATER IN DIFFERENT ONES THANK YOU FOR THOSE WHO RESPONSE TO MY RAMBLINGS

[Dirt]