The truth about Guo Xiang

[Anonymous]

ThaiGy: I would like to try having Li Mo Chou as my wife!
--- However, you cannot screw anyone else or you'll be like LMC's lover ... [then again, if she loves you, she can easily forgive you (I think)]

[Guo Xiang]

Originally posted by Raden Wijaya
Wow, if that's true (BIG IF), she's even surpass her father & YG.

On par with Sweeper Monk??? Wow that's too much of an exaggeration.

ThaiGy: I would like to try having Li Mo Chou as my wife!
--- However, you cannot screw anyone else or you'll be like LMC's lover ... [then again, if she loves you, she can easily forgive you (I think)]

You think she would? Look what happened to the Lu family and Li Mochou does love that guy. It's because she loves so much that you even took advantage of that fact to cheat on her. Tsktsk. Men!

[philip]

3) We always talks about Lin Chao Ying being great and all, but the truth is, even her techniques were defeated by 9-Yin. Guo Xiang had exposure (perhaps) to 9-Yin from her parents, and the Condor Hero couple, not to mention she created her own E Mei style. Thus, shouldn't (with some speculation) Guo Xiang perhaps be the best female prodigy in the Condor Trilogy ?

whatevers happened to HR? she knew all of 9 yin, dog beating, parts of H7G, and peach island....and XLN who could used L/R on her jade maiden formation? who said lin chao yin would definitley be better than those two?

Greats herself, along with ZSF

but considering ZSF had some 80 years more cultivation than GX, i would say he surpassed her level, and since i would say perhaps ZSF peak may equal great, then GX w/ many many years less cultication wouldn't be level of greats too bad for her

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by philip
whatevers happened to HR? she knew all of 9 yin, dog beating, parts of H7G, and peach island....and XLN who could used L/R on her jade maiden formation? who said lin chao yin would definitley be better than those two?

I think she would. Lam Chiu Ying was nearly able to battle Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, the man who won the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament by defeating the other Greats, to a standstill. Wong Yung and Little Dragon Girl at the end of ROCH weren't powerful enough to do that.

As far as Gwok Seung is concerned, I noticed in HSDS that people often spoke glowingly about Gwok Seung's sword technique, but never really commented much on other aspects of her martial arts. It's very possible that Gwok Seung achieved greatness in the area of swordplay, but was "only" very good at everything else.

[Han Solo]

What about the four square "pat kua" fist or whatever?

[Athena]

* Facts on Guo Xiang

- Guo Xiang was a very talented girl, Jinlun Guoshi noticed that when he taught her martial arts. If she sets her mind to it, she makes tremendous progress.
- Her internal energy cultivation at 16 was quite good, as stated in the novel. Even superior to most martial arts experts, however that is due to the excellent internal cultivation theory of the Quanzhen school.
- The E Mei school had become one of the four main martial arts schools in the realm of martial arts. The E Mei martial arts were very sophisticated not inferior to Wudang.
- Miejue Shi-tai and Guhong Zi were only her grandstudents and were both extraordinary martial arts experts in the realm.
- In chapter 3 Guo Xiang had already passed away, at that time Zhang Sanfeng was about to become 90 years old. All we know is that Guo Xiang "had passed away for some time." Well that could mean a few years to a several decades. However I personally deduct that she lived at least to be 70+ or 80 or something. She became a Buddhist nun at the age of 40 and only founded E Mei later on. So she must have been around to put E Mei on its' feet. Well founding and creating a martial arts style cannot be accomplished overnight....So I think a few decades would be necessary and teaching students.

- Speculation(s):
- Yang Guo once commented indirectly commented that Guo Xiang could reach the same martial arts level as reverend Yideng, however by that time she would be very old.
We could argue that it was before she received a portion of Jiuyang and with the Jiuyang boost she might have reached that level earlier (level of Southern Emperor).

[Temujin]

Thanks Athena. Then... now I really think she's at least on par with LCY (if not better, perhaps the best female fighter in the entire Condor Trilogy) and she's definitely one of the Greats in the era between ROCH and Chapter 3 of HSDS .

[Guo Xiang]

Originally posted by Temujin
Thanks Athena. Then... now I really think she's at least on par with LCY (if not better, perhaps the best female fighter in the entire Condor Trilogy) and she's definitely one of the Greats in the era between ROCH and Chapter 3 of HSDS .

I don't think she's a Great... If she is why isn't it mentioned before? Maybe she qualifies, but perhaps she declined the position like her mother and XLN once did? Anyway I do not think she is one, because even ZSF isn't one.

[Anonymous]

Thx Athena.
.
Being DevAdvocate:
1. what does HYS/otherGreats thought about HuangRong? (ie. potential to be a great?) Since I recall Lava describes HR as "jack of all trades, master of none." Then again, HR and XLN was nominated as a great ... And GX only has a part of 9Yang compared to her mother who has the whole 9Yin, and Lava mentioned that GX doesnt know 9Yin.
.
2. What's the situation/circumstance that allowed YG to deduce GX's potential? (ie. YG may believe with help from HYS/GJ/HR/etc.)
.
.
To GXiang: Why Z3F not a great?

[philip]

i don't think anyone was actually titled "GREAT" or took after the title of one of the "greats" after ROCH....

[Thai guy]

Re: to Athena

I don't think we can regard Miejue Shi-tai as the "extraordiary martial arts experts in the realm". Yes, she might be good but she cannot compare with Z3F or the Shaolin monks in anyway. Moreover, one factor we could not forget is that she relied heavily on the Heavenly Sword. E-mei's kongfu might be quite good but we have never really seen its full rigour. After Guo Xiang passed away, none of them can learn and understand the whole E-Mei's kongfu skills.

[philip]

well, ZSF did have about 100 extra years over Mie Jue

[ToOn99]

Well, not many people could match with Mie jue Shi Tai in HSDS. She was in the same league with 4 guardian of Ming cult after all.

[Candide]

Originally posted by ToOn99
Well, not many people could match with Mie jue Shi Tai in HSDS. She was in the same league with 4 guardian of Ming cult after all.

I doubt it. She relied too much on the Heaven Sword. Her best strike (using Emei's 9 Yang inner power) on the Golden Flower Granny was described as a pebble thrown into the ocean. I think each of the 4 guardians would *****-slap her arse easily.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Candide
I doubt it. She relied too much on the Heaven Sword. Her best strike (using Emei's 9 Yang inner power) on the Golden Flower Granny was described as a pebble thrown into the ocean. I think each of the 4 guardians would *****-slap her arse easily.

Miejue Shi-tai was quite formidable in the novel, mentioned numerous times in the novel that she was not inferior to Wei Yixiao, Granny Goldenflower, Yang Xiao etc. The comments were on her martial arts and not on her blade only.
Candide, you have read the novel too. You should remember those passages I take it. (Albeit you read them in a different language but still).
Furthermore it is true that we have seen her use her Heavenly Sword quite frequently in combat. However she used it in combat when she was dealing with in her eyes "demons of the world" the Ming Sect. No mercy to them, hence she used her Heavenly Sword to "exterminate" those rogues. In her initial battle with Granny Goldenflower she used a normal sword, but the coral staff of granny broke her sword. That is why she used a better weapon to overcome that coral staff.
Second time her normal sword was broken by the Golden Flagleader of the 5 Elemental Banner units, because he wielded a heavy mace type weapon and it was said that he had immense strength.
So claiming she heavily relied on the Heavenly Sword is really premature I think.
It is comparable saying that West Venom relied too much on his staff with poisonous snakes in combat.

Back to Guo Xiang now;
The difference is with Guo Xiang and Xiao Longnu and Huang Rong is that she did not get married. Huang Rong as said in the novel did not spend that much time on her training as her husband because she had to take care of her family. Xiao Longnu was trapped in a valley, furthermore she was trying to recover from an illness. Guo Xiang had much more time to devote herself on martial arts and Buddhism when she settled down on Mount E Mei.

[Candide]

Miejue Shi-tai was quite formidable in the novel, mentioned numerous times in the novel that she was not inferior to Wei Yixiao, Granny Goldenflower, Yang Xiao etc. The comments were on her martial arts and not on her blade only.

Well, to me she did nothing that was remotely as impressive as the 4 Guardians or the two Messengers. She only looked good when she had the Heaven Sword

In her initial battle with Granny Goldenflower she used a normal sword, but the coral staff of granny broke her sword.

Second time her normal sword was broken by the Golden Flagleader of the 5 Elemental Banner units, because he wielded a heavy mace type weapon and it was said that he had immense strength.

Ling Hu Chung, when fighting with people who had better weapons and much higher inner power (he had none) didn't let their weapons clash with his. Apparently you're proving that Mie Jue's sword skill is hopeless ?

Another thing: Zhang Wu Ji when fighting Fan Yao thought that 6 months ago (ie just after he fought Ah #1 after he learnt Taichi sword) he would lose to Fan Yao for sure. Fan Yao wasn't using the Heaven Sword against ZWJ. So that made Fan Yao a lot better than Ah #1 (ZWJ also said the same thing). Now, before ZWJ ever learnt how to use a sword properly, he had a chance to kill/defeat Mie Jue in 8 moves (fight on Brightness Peak) and then, while holding ZZR, he snatched the Heaven Sword from Mie Jue's hand and could easily kill her then.

To me, that makes Mie Jue about 2-3 levels lower than Fan Yao, and as a result, she's inferior to the 4 Guardians.

I must admit, she looked extremely powerful when she killed her disciple though (YX's lover, forgot her name in pinyin)...

[Athena]

Originally posted by Candide
Well, to me she did nothing that was remotely as impressive as the 4 Guardians or the two Messengers. She only looked good when she had the Heaven Sword



Ling Hu Chung, when fighting with people who had better weapons and much higher inner power (he had none) didn't let their weapons clash with his. Apparently you're proving that Mie Jue's sword skill is hopeless ?

Another thing: Zhang Wu Ji when fighting Fan Yao thought that 6 months ago (ie just after he fought Ah #1 after he learnt Taichi sword) he would lose to Fan Yao for sure. Fan Yao wasn't using the Heaven Sword against ZWJ. So that made Fan Yao a lot better than Ah #1 (ZWJ also said the same thing). Now, before ZWJ ever learnt how to use a sword properly, he had a chance to kill/defeat Mie Jue in 8 moves (fight on Brightness Peak) and then, while holding ZZR, he snatched the Heaven Sword from Mie Jue's hand and could easily kill her then.

To me, that makes Mie Jue about 2-3 levels lower than Fan Yao, and as a result, she's inferior to the 4 Guardians.

I must admit, she looked extremely powerful when she killed her disciple though (YX's lover, forgot her name in pinyin)...

In all fairness those are your assumptions only and feelings which are not in line with the novel.
The Wudang Heroes are about the same level as the four Guardian lords. Stated in the novel was that Miejue's internal energy cultivation was higher than the Song Yuanjiao etc. but a bit lower than abbot Kongwen.
Furthermore I have heard some interesting clarification on that part about Fan Yao and his swordsmanship in comparion with A Da (Fang Donbai) by Leviathan. Perhaps he can enlighten us better on that subject.
Linghu Chong studied Dugu Jiujian, a complete different sword style than what Miejue studied. True, that what Linghu Chong studied is more sophisticated what Miejue had learnt but that doesn't necessarily mean that Miejue's profiency in the way of sword is bad. In both instances with Miejue's weapon breaking you are drawing the conclusion that her profiency is mediocre. I could say that the level of Imperial Priest Jinlun is as bad as Miejue, because he allowed his wheels to make contact with the Heavy Iron Sword of Yang Guo. Three of his wheels were broken.

[Candide]

In all fairness those are your assumptions only and feelings which are not in line with the novel.

I disagree Please point out where I made assumptions.

The Wudang Heroes are about the same level as the four Guardian lords. Stated in the novel was that Miejue's internal energy cultivation was higher than the Song Yuanjiao etc. but a bit lower than abbot Kongwen.

Doesn't mean that she's not a crappy fighter.

Jue Yuan had superior inner energy to all in HSDS except for maybe ZSF and ZWJ. He was a terrible fighter.

Heck, even ZWJ was a crappy fighter, despite his inner power, and Laviathan seems to be a strong advocate of that idea

You Tan Zhi had comparable inner power to Xiao Feng, he was still a crappy fighter, nonetheless.

So Athena, that comment about Mie Jue's inner power means jack. She could still get her arse kicked in fights without her Heaven Sword

Only near the end of the novel did the Wudang heroes approach the level of the 4 Guardians, and that's only your assumption (there's nothing in the novel that suggests that) although I do agree with that. For most of the novels, they were far below the level of the Guardians. In the big battle on Brightness Peak, only Song Yuan Qiao could match Yan Tian Zheng in techniques, but that's after Yan had fought zillions of other fighters. I think Song was still a little behind Yan at that time.

I could say that the level of Imperial Priest Jinlun is as bad as Miejue, because he allowed his wheels to make contact with the Heavy Iron Sword of Yang Guo. Three of his wheels were broken.

I believe that Jinlun's best skill was his Dragon Elephant kungfu, not his wheels. Anyway, he never thought that YG's blunt POS could be that powerful, he was surprised. He wasn't hopeless or lost fights without those wheels. Mie Jue on the other hand knew very well that her sword (the normal one) was way weaker than Granny Golden Flower's staff or the Metal Flag leader's staff, but she couldn't avoid the clash. Once Mie Jue lost her normal sword, she had to resort to using the Heaven Sword, otherwise she would lose the fight for sure.

Athena, can you show me an example where Mie Jue really shone without her Heaven Sword ?

[Athena]

Originally posted by Candide
I disagree Please point out where I made assumptions.



Doesn't mean that she's not a crappy fighter.

Jue Yuan had superior inner energy to all in HSDS except for maybe ZSF and ZWJ. He was a terrible fighter.

Heck, even ZWJ was a crappy fighter, despite his inner power, and Laviathan seems to be a strong advocate of that idea

You Tan Zhi had comparable inner power to Xiao Feng, he was still a crappy fighter, nonetheless.

So Athena, that comment about Mie Jue's inner power means jack. She could still get her arse kicked in fights without her Heaven Sword

Only near the end of the novel did the Wudang heroes approach the level of the 4 Guardians, and that's only your assumption (there's nothing in the novel that suggests that) although I do agree with that. For most of the novels, they were far below the level of the Guardians. In the big battle on Brightness Peak, only Song Yuan Qiao could match Yan Tian Zheng in techniques, but that's after Yan had fought zillions of other fighters. I think Song was still a little behind Yan at that time.



I believe that Jinlun's best skill was his Dragon Elephant kungfu, not his wheels. Anyway, he never thought that YG's blunt POS could be that powerful, he was surprised. He wasn't hopeless or lost fights without those wheels. Mie Jue on the other hand knew very well that her sword (the normal one) was way weaker than Granny Golden Flower's staff or the Metal Flag leader's staff, but she couldn't avoid the clash. Once Mie Jue lost her normal sword, she had to resort to using the Heaven Sword, otherwise she would lose the fight for sure.

Athena, can you show me an example where Mie Jue really shone without her Heaven Sword ?

First of you were the one who said that to ME she did nothing......
Meaning you are of the impression that she isn't as good, so that is your view on her martial arts. I think that would fall under the category of an assumption.
Assumption: sth supposed but not proved.
Indeed since you so nicely pointed out that I ASSUMED that the Wudang heroes are about the same level as the Four Guardians. I will now officially retract that earlier made ASSUMPTION.
It was the fourth hero who battled and lost a bit to Yin, during that fight. And the seventh hero lost to Yin Tianzheng, but won technique wise with arms but Yin almost broke his neck. However he did not fight a zillion people, he first defeated in total 3 martial artists (of Shaolin, Huashan) before engaging the fourth hero.
Why would Miejue shi-tai know that the coral staff of granny Goldenflower would be superior, it looked like an ordinary staff as described in the novel. It did not look impressive or precious.
Secondly Zhuang Zheng (the one using the mace) wanted to use his weapon to smash Miejue's head (granted if he succeeded the world would be a better place) but she used her sword and wielded the stance pushing the boat with the stream to repel the mace back to Zhuang Zheng. However Zhuang Zheng had incredible strenght in his arms and had learnt both superior internal and external martial arts. When he noticed the internal strength of Miejue, he roared and suddenly generated a powerful aggressive energy breaking the sword of Miejue.
You say that she would lose the fight for sure to both Zhuang Zheng and granny Goldenflower but even Goldenflower was not sure what the outcome would be if Miejue did not use the Heavenly Sword.

The battle in which she did not use the Heavenly Sword was in the Myriad Tranquility Pagoda. At that time she pulled everything she had out on He Biweng of the Xuanming elders. Although there was no accurate description on that battle, but she seemed to be on par with He Biweng at that time. In fact he was quite afraid of her, it seemed. (Due to her mad, aggressive and somewhat vigorous fighting style). Granted that He Biweng was worried about his martial arts brother, he had not completely recovered from his injury and some other small things. But Miejue had not fully recovered from that poison, and she had not eaten for days now. Furthermore she was fighting a martial arts expert (albeit in weakened state) who was far superior to her, but she kept her grounds.

[Laviathan]

Her best strike (using Emei's 9 Yang inner power) on the Golden Flower Granny was described as a pebble thrown into the ocean.

That was with Wuji, not Golden Flower Granny. Because Miejue's Nine Yang is not as complete as Wuji's, hitting him was like throwing a pebble into the ocean.

Furthermore I have heard some interesting clarification on that part about Fan Yao and his swordsmanship in comparion with A Da (Fang Donbai) by Leviathan.

Well, I don't really have anything extraordinary to say about this... I just assume that Fan Yao's sword skills are better than Fang Dongbai's, but Fang's internal power was higher than Fan Yao's... In actual combat, I think Fang Dongbai would still win.

Well, to me she did nothing that was remotely as impressive as the 4 Guardians or the two Messengers. She only looked good when she had the Heaven Sword

Well, I more or less agree that Miejue only SHONE in combat with Heaven Sword.

Why would Miejue shi-tai know that the coral staff of granny Goldenflower would be superior, it looked like an ordinary staff as described in the novel. It did not look impressive or precious.
Secondly Zhuang Zheng (the one using the mace) wanted to use his weapon to smash Miejue's head (granted if he succeeded the world would be a better place) but she used her sword and wielded the stance pushing the boat with the stream to repel the mace back to Zhuang Zheng. However Zhuang Zheng had incredible strenght in his arms and had learnt both superior internal and external martial arts. When he noticed the internal strength of Miejue, he roared and suddenly generated a powerful aggressive energy breaking the sword of Miejue.
You say that she would lose the fight for sure to both Zhuang Zheng and granny Goldenflower but even Goldenflower was not sure what the outcome would be if Miejue did not use the Heavenly Sword.

Actually, when she first appeared in the novel she broke the scabbard of Ding Minjun's sword just by using the shocking power of her three fingers and then began to fight Golden Flower Granny. It was clear that Miejue's martial arts level is very high, not many people in HSDS could perform the same feat. In the fields of both inner strength and techniques, Miejue is more or less the equal of one Guardian Lord.

But when it comes to ACTUAL COMBAT, Miejue does not shine without Heaven Sword. I assume that it is due to her agressive character: she doesn't fight smart, she likes to chop like a madman with internal strength instead. Especially in the fight with Zhuang Zheng: if Miejue was not armed with Heaven Sword, she might have been killed by Banner Leader Zhuang. That does not mean that her martial arts level is lower than Zhuang's (I am convinced that the contrary is true), it's just that her character flaws create flaws in her fighting style (she fights a bit like Old Madame Shang of Outer Stories of the Flying Fox IMO), when facing an opponent with a superb weapon or great physical strength she might get in trouble. A superior blade like Heaven Sword makes up for those flaws.