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Thread: Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor vs. Three Shaolin Elder Monks (HSDS)

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor vs. Three Shaolin Elder Monks (HSDS)

    In HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE, Cheung Mo Gei was unable to defeat the three Shaolin Elder Monks Do Geep, Do Ngan, and Do Ngak, despite the fact that his inner power and martial arts were far superior to theirs individually. Several factors played into this: the monks, although individually no match for Cheung Mo Gei, had a very effective fighting formation that Cheung Mo Gei could not penetrate. Second, Cheung Mo Gei fought them unarmed, which was not a good choice in light of the monks' expertise with soft weaponry. Third, of course, is the often-discussed idea that for all his tremendous inner power and considerable martial arts learning talent, Cheung Mo Gei lacked the refinement of skill and personal aggression necessary to overcome such high level opponents as the Shaolin Elders.

    Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor had refinement and aggression in spades (relative to Cheung Mo Gei). How much better would either of them have performed against the Shaolin Elders? Both Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor's inner power were probably not weaker than Cheung Mo Gei's, and they had the edge on him in skill and refinement. Their skill sets and weaponry preferences also seem to favor them. Gwok Jing's Left/Right Hand Technique, Hong Lung 18 Palms, and ability to perform the Cheun Jen Sect's 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation probably would have served him very well against the Shaolin Elders. Yeung Gor's expertise in swordsmanship, his Heavy Iron Sword (it's been mooted that had Cheung Mo Gei fought those Shaolin Elders with the Heaven Sword or the Dragon Sabre, which were derived from the Heavy Iron Sword, he would have performed better against their soft weaponry), and his own expert knowledge of soft weaponry (Yeung Gor was the student of Little Dragon Girl, perhaps the all-time expert of soft weaponry), would have made him very well-prepared to deal with the Shaolin Elders as well.

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    Give Zhang Wuji another 10 years (he'd be 36? 37?) with Tai Ji Jian/Quan and he would have been just as good as Yang Guo.

    Yang Guo at 26/27 would have been defeated by Zhang Wuji at the same age, IMHO.

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    Senior Member allunderheaven's Avatar
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    I think GJ has the better chance here than YG. with his L/R and his big dipper formation which he usually uses when outnumbered would probaly out do the 3 elders. YG might be able to but having one arm less makes it a lil more tough but his lightness skill is 'in a class of its own' according to the translation so i guess that could play a role here, unless he gets his sword n does his dugu sword of his and cuts the whips plus his inner energy would simply overwhelm the elders unless they could team theirs up together like them ugly tibet 5!

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    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    i doubt zhang wuji would ever be as good as yang guo or guo jing even in 10 yrs time. unless he gets a mega energy boost like xu zhu. zhang wuji just lacks the natural fighting talent and aggresion. guo jing would probably be able to defeat the 3 monks. guo jing has jiu yin enhanced xiang long 18 zhang. with his superiour inner energy and 9 yin energy conservation, he can probably wear them out. guo jing has fought formations b4, but u can argue that hes familar with the quanzhen dipper formation so he has the advantage in that fight. + guo jing, even thou his dumb, is a pretty talented fighter. yang guo im not so sure. the monks are pretty powerful in a formation. + yang guo has the serious disadvantage of 1 arm vs 6.

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    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allunderheaven
    I think GJ has the better chance here than YG. with his L/R and his big dipper formation which he usually uses when outnumbered would probaly out do the 3 elders. YG might be able to but having one arm less makes it a lil more tough but his lightness skill is 'in a class of its own' according to the translation so i guess that could play a role here, unless he gets his sword n does his dugu sword of his and cuts the whips plus his inner energy would simply overwhelm the elders unless they could team theirs up together like them ugly tibet 5!
    i dont think yang guo will be able to cut the whips, cus the iron sword is blunt, n it smashes instead of slashes. its like trying to cut a whip with a hammer, the whip is just too soft

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qiaofeng
    i dont think yang guo will be able to cut the whips, cus the iron sword is blunt, n it smashes instead of slashes. its like trying to cut a whip with a hammer, the whip is just too soft
    The edge of the Heavy Iron Sword was indeed blunt (in which case, Yeung Gor might want to use the Gentleman's Sword he got from Passionless Valley instead), but Yeung Gor was capable of putting the Heavy Iron Sword to some surprising uses.

    Then again, he might opt to use his empty sleeve and go soft vs. soft....beat the Elders at their own game.

    The missing arm against three high-level opponents could cost him here. It didn't give him trouble against numerous low-level opponents in ROCH, or *one* high-level opponent (i.e. the Golden Wheel Monk), but multiple high-level opponents could turn into a problem.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    Give Zhang Wuji another 10 years (he'd be 36? 37?) with Tai Ji Jian/Quan and he would have been just as good as Yang Guo.

    Yang Guo at 26/27 would have been defeated by Zhang Wuji at the same age, IMHO.
    ZWJ was 22-23 at the end of HSDS. A 22-23 years old GJ or YG would be defeated by ZWJ for sure.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Oh yeah. He left the island at about 10. Stayed with the doctor for 5 years. Was trapped in the cave for 5 years. Makes sense.

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    The secret to beating the 3 monks is separating them as constituents of one major force. Break off one node and settle with the rest. Or with a glimpse of fighting talent that ZWJ finally demonstrated, wrap the whip around the tree to disarm them of their weapons. Yang Guo with his superior Qing Gong adjusted to that situation would pull it off, no sweat. The problem is when all 3 whips come soaring towards your face the availability of two arms is critical here especially when trying to catch all 3 of them. Yang Guo would have to resort to dodging or retreating which further delays to his process of defeating the 3 monks. Guo Jing with his abundant techniques and inner energy would reveal their limitations since after ZWJ fought them for over 100 strokes, their transformations were not effective and their energies were exhausted. If someone like ZWJ with limited range of techniques could push them to their limits, I can’t see why Guo Jing couldn’t top that. And by incorporating ZWJ’s later strategies into the fight, he’ll punish them like there’s no tomorrow after the 3 trees have collapsed.

    The fight with the 3 monks wasn’t fair anyway. There were a whole array of distractions at hand and hindered the ability to focus. This was apparent when ZWJ almost vomited to death when his qi was at boiling point. Luckily Little Yellow Girl cleared his worries for him and ZWJ regained his composure.
    The 3 monks main focus was defending, defending the centre where Xie Xun lied to be specific. If ZWJ did not have a bad start, and did not use Sheng Huo Ling that not only affected his performance but also affected the evil inside his mind (which was eradicated by Xie Xun‘s recitation of a holy script) , then with the invaluable help of ZZR he might’ve defeated them.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    one hand doesn't mean yang guo was at a disadvantage. when using the heavy sword he would swing it with only one hand, and with the sad palm he reached the level where his one hand made no difference, he was the same as any top two handed fighter. yang guo may also try the tactic of flicking stones at them from outside their formation or jade bee needles, those would be hard for them to resist. with sad palm, he reached the level of using nature as his sword so sticks, leaves and stones on the ground give him a good advantage.
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    I think sometimes ZWJ is being severely underrated. If he had really trained diligently for another decade, his potential could ultimately exceed many people's expectations. Sure, the principal reason that he was able to become a preeminent fighter of his time at a young age was because of all the fortunate encounters. That doesn't mean that he doesn't has inherent talents for martial arts(although he does seems to have a bad hibit of wavering during a crisis). Given still another 10 years or training could possible produce another GJ or YG. He seems to has the most optimal head start out of the three. So even though I doubt that he would be a threat to them skillwise, a decade is ample time to accumulate large quantities of energy.
    Last edited by superboy; 01-12-05 at 03:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by superboy
    I think sometimes ZWJ is being severely underrated. If he had really trained diligently for another decade, his potential could ultimately exceed many people's expectations. Sure, the principal reason that he was able to become a preeminant fighter of his time was because of all the fortunate encounters. That that doesn't mean that he doesn't has inherent talents for martial arts(although he does seems to have a bad hibit of wavering during a crisis). Given still another 10 years or training could possible produce another GJ or YG. He seems to has the most optimal head start out of the three. So even though I doubt that he would be a threat to them skillwise, a decade is ample time to accumulate large quantities of energy.
    With Cheung Mo Gei, I believe that the physical talent is there: not just anybody could have done what he did with the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee. It did take someone special to get as far as he did with those two martial arts. That being said, I don't think his disposition was well-suited to the pursuit of a warrior's life. Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor each had some personal interest in martial arts beyond mere survival. Cheung Mo Gei, however, demonstrated no similar inclination. CMG's more pacifist disposition might have limited his development in the martial arts despite his considerable talent.

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    Zhou Zhirou? How the heck would Zhou Zirou would've helped? Unless I misrecall dramatically, she wasn't even able to enter the arena because the amount of neigong in the area was so overwhelming.

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    think GJ and YG would not have as much trouble dealing with the 3 monks as ZWJ but whether they would defeat the 3 monks remains an unanswered question... more so for YG and his 1-arm handicap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    Zhou Zhirou? How the heck would Zhou Zirou would've helped? Unless I misrecall dramatically, she wasn't even able to enter the arena because the amount of neigong in the area was so overwhelming.
    Didn't enter the arena? You mean she didn't even fight at all? It’s said that any outsider who tried to interfere in the fight the 3 monks could transport their energy force on top of their own, effectively outweighing ZWJ’s chances of surviving. This was the battle after the trees collapsed and the deprivation of their whips. Before that ZWJ and ZZR defeated the Jin Gang Fu Mo Juan (well, mainly ZWJ), and saved Xie Xun. Don't think there was any implication of internal forces in the opening battle.
    Last edited by Hanky Panky; 01-12-05 at 10:39 AM.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    She was just dancing around and couldn't enter the Diamond Circle as the amount of energy there was just too much for her to endure. Whenever the monks launched an attack, she would try to dodge and move further out.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    then with the invaluable help of ZZR he might’ve defeated them.
    IIRC ZWJ realized that although her martial arts are strong she was not even on YX or his grandfathers level and belived that he would lose again that day.

    i dont think yang guo will be able to cut the whips, cus the iron sword is blunt, n it smashes instead of slashes.
    Yg could use HIS to cut as well,similar to the way he used wooden sword. Not sure if he could cut through whips or not.
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 01-12-05 at 10:58 AM.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

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    Sorry for my misuse of vocab, I meant inferior assistant from ZZR. And like you pointed out when she collided with the 4 people’s inner energy she was immediately catapulted away. But the fact that she was known to have ‘defeated’ ZWJ to qualify in saving Xie Xun, the 3 monks no doubt would’ve been apprehensive of her every move. Of course they quickly figured it out. She may have only diverted petty attention away from ZWJ, but every little helps.

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    You know which of the Greats seems almost tailor-made to defeat the three Shaolin Elders? The Golden Wheel Monk. His inner power was on par with Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, and Cheung Mo Gei, and moreover, his preferred weaponry was both sharp *and* long range. The Golden Wheel Monk could use his wheels to sever the whips or attack the monks from a safe distance, and his inner power was more than adequate to finish the job. Too bad for the Golden Wheel Monk that the Shaolin Elders lived 100 years after his time or he almost certainly would have been salivating over this relatively easy opportunity to prove his superiority over elite Chinese fighters.

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    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    if duanyu had been serious in his training, he can probably own those 3 monks in a few moves. hes got long range invisible sword energy which is very difficult to detect. + the monks are old so they probably cant see very well. n he shouldnt have much problem avoiding the whips with his ling bo wei bu.

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