Wang Chongyang vs Linghu Chong

[sixdays]

it's all good, athena. i think by now we're just splitting hairs over words -- a bit of semantics, i guess.

the point remains: QZ swordplay is focused on strength (or firmness, or any other similar adj. here) while AT is more about gracefulness. i'd like to point out, though, that not ALL of LCY's AT swordplay was designed to counter WCY's QZ swordplay. it's only the jade maiden swordplay that counters/complements WCY's movements. otherwise, LMC could whup QCJ's arse because she knows how to stop all of his moves --- and we all know that LMC can't beat QCJ.

[Athena]

I agree with you.

It is funny that a thread which began on a light satirical note evolved into the (another) discussion on the martial arts level of Wang Chongyang and a careful analysis on the swordsmanship of Xiao Longnu. Talk about twists and turns.....

[Ardor]

Originally posted by sixdays
1. WCY canNOT beat up DGQB. WCY, while being possibly the first great fighter in the condor trilogy history, still wasn't the best of all the fighters when compared side to side. why do i say this? because QZ kungfu is his legacy, and during the timeline of ROCH the QZ kungfu was shown to not be #1 in the world at the time. this was probably an honor given to 9yin, but i won't get into that. the point is, no matter where DGQB's kungfu shows up it's the best kungfu PERIOD. with it, YG learns an incredibly powerful technique --- even if ironsword isn't his best kungfu (probably sadpalms is), DGQB's sword techniques as picked up from a BIRD are still enough for YG to go from being a cripple to becoming one of the greatest fighters of his time...all in less than 20 years.

DGQB's real ability is not known. We only know what swords he used(when he used them) and that he never lost a fight. His ability could range from below YG to above Sweeper Monk or even DaMo

but it is unknown. Though I highly doubt he is below YG, seeing as his bird could kick so much ***.

And this is the words of J.R.R. Tolkien(meant for Tom Bombadil) which I think can also apply to DuGu

"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954

DuGu in this case, is the enigma. And he should be left at that.

Opinion: The DuGu in SOD and the DuGu in The Condor Trilogy are not the same person. I see that in JY's books, unless they are directly related(series), they are not related at all, except some bits and traces of character stories(DuGu, OYF?,LHC, ZSF, etc) So maybe the worlds do not collide.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by sixdays
t
if YG still had his other arm, i'm confident that he could learn L/R hand technique

Well, that's a point of contention there. It's been said that the Left/Right Hand Technique could only be performed by individuals with simple personalities like Chow Bak Tung, Gwok Jing, and Little Dragon Girl. Individuals like East Heretic Wong Yerk See, Wong Yung, and Yeung Gor would *not* be able to learn this skill because of, not despite, their complex personalities.

[sixdays]

that's interesting. ken, could you enlighten me some more on L/R hand technique?

YG has a history of learning kungfu that is seemingly incompatible with himself. some examples:

firstly, there is ha mo gong when he is barely more than a child. it is said that ha mo gong is OYF's supreme technique, yet YG is able to develop its internal energy and use the move in distress. remember, this is in ONE night of instruction to a child with almost negligible kungfu ability.

secondly, there is AT kungfu. say what you will, but LCY created this kungfu for women...she could never have dreamed that a man would practice her swordplay. that's why when YG was learning many of the stances in AT swordplay, esp. jade maiden, it was awkward for him to perfom these moves. therefore, he actually modified AT swordplay himself to become more "male", and changed many of the womanly moves while retaining its effectiveness. tho this may just seem like a trivial thing, i believe it's pretty difficult to modify someone's kungfu unless you understand the heart of it completely --- case in point, GJ with HL18Z. this shows that YG was able to not only learn, but completely understand a swordplay style that was never meant for him. after all, it is said that a man cannot be effective with ancient tomb swordplay...

it seems that YG, more than HYS or HR, is able to adapt his kungfu style to whatever he is about to learn. i'm not saying that he's invincible and can learn anything --- far from it. i'm just saying that not possessing a "simple" personality may not prevent him from learning L/R technique. honestly, i see the scenario like this:

in an alternate universe, GF isn't a total biotch and she doesn't chop off YG's arm. later in life, he learns L/R hand technique from someone, whether it be ZBT or GJ. he probably won't learn the technique to the level that ZBT and GJ have --- i rather picture YG doing to L/R hand technique what he did with all his kungfu in the first half of the book. in other words, he'd learn enough to modify and incorporate it into his own style. the thing about YG is, his intelligence allows him to grasp the full essence behind a kungfu...yet because of his limitations, he often realizes that he cannot be an expert if he just blindly practices just any kungfu. therefore, he often borrows concepts and condenses it into a style that he can understand --- you can take what he did with AT swordplay as an example.

final verdict: in an alternate universe, YG could learn L/R hand technique, but he wouldn't master it...but a part of it would remain with his kungfu to be manifested elsewhere. dual ironswords? sadpalm with two hands? be my guest, let your imagination run wild.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by sixdays
that's interesting. ken, could you enlighten me some more on L/R hand technique?

Chow Bak Tung invented the Left/Right Hand Technique during his years on Peach Blossom Island . . . mainly to alleviate his boredom while being held prisoner there by Wong Yerk See. Chow Bak Tung taught this technique to Gwok Jing when the latter came to Peach Blossom Island for Wong Yung's hand in marriage.

Years later, Chow Bak Tung found himself with Little Dragon Girl in a cave. Chow Bak Tung asked Little Dragon Girl who was smarter, Gwok Jing or Wong Yung. Little Dragon Girl said that Wong Yung was indeed much smarter. Chow Bak Tung then told her, to her surprise, that while it wasn't difficult to teach Gwok Jing the Left/Right Hand Technique, neither he nor Gwok Jing ever succeeded in teaching the technique to Wong Yung. Little Dragon Girl initially could not believe that there existed a martial art that the less intelligent could learn more readily than the intelligent. Chow Bak Tung then challenged Little Dragon Girl to draw a square with one hand and a circle with another. To Chow Bak Tung's surprise, Little Dragon Girl was able to do this easily. When Chow asked her how she was able to accomplish this, she replied that she shunted all thought out of her mind other than the task of drawing the square and the circle. That was when Chow identified Little Dragon Girl as another suitable candidate to learn the Left/Right Hand Technique.

[sixdays]

to ardor:

DGQB is an all-together different entity from DaMo and the sweeper monk. DaMo is like the sun; the dude is a legend that created SHAOLIN art...yet shaolin arts grew out of just doing these moves for health and defense against barbarians. therefore, damo wasn't really trying to create an INVINCIBLE kungfu...it just stemmed out of his own genius. truly impressive, yet his kungfu is not intended to be martial. after all, he IS a buddhist...he would design his arts with respect to peace and defense.

sweeper monk is a product of shaolin arts, actually...although he is not necessarily below damo. he may have been a better practitioner of shaolin arts than damo was...it's not that rare for a student to surpass his teacher. XF and HL18Z, anyone? the point is, we never see sweeper monk in all-out combat: though this is what makes him so fearful (that he took out 2 of the best fighters in DGSD with just a thought, or touch, or something tiny like that), it also limits what we know about sweeper monk. is he like a much much much much much higher version of JueYuan? does he simply know internal energy theories and no fighting techniques? no one knows...in the area of his actual kungfu skills, he is an enigma, just like in your tolkien passage. (btw, i dig the LOTR quote... )

DGQB, on the other hand, is completely different from DaMo and the sweeper monk. this man is obviously a warrior, and devoted his whole life to this end. every single one of his moves was created with USE in mind...indeed, practicality is the backbone of formless technique. in order to really understand DGQB's philosophies, you must be able to DO his techniques...that's why just imagining what it takes for the "no sword" level already tells us how powerful DGQB can be. throughout ROCH when YG is training in the ways of DGQB, he mentions that the genius of this master is unfathomable --- he says this at the waterfall, the ocean, etc. and i must admit that YG is pretty freakin arrogant at this time...it's a pretty big thing for YG to admit that his intelligence cannot compare to someone, since his wits are his greatest weapon (in my opinion, way more powerful than sadpalms).

also, something occured to me a while back as i was reading some ROCH: how old is brother condor? i know he's a mystical creature, but i doubt he's immortal. i bring up this point because if DGQB's pet is still alive, then that means that DGQB himself would have roamed wulin not too many years before. shouldn't WCY have at least heard of him? wouldn't DGQB have crashed the mt. hua tournament, looking for worthy opponents? it makes me think about how old the bird really is...

and if DGQB existed before the condor trilogy, i wonder if he goes all the way back to the DGSD era...one never knows.

man, DGQB is awesome

[Anonymous]

6Day: in JY's every description of YG and XLN using jade maiden swordplay together, JY always describes YG as very fierce and aggressive.
--- YG as male decided to change JadeHeartStuff to more aggressive to fit his style (ie. more YANG. ) [Again, shows YG's ingenuity and doesnt follow "exactly" on everything.] Best scene to lookup is YG versus LiMouChou during that FakeWeddingEvent.
.
.
Athen: Without the Jade Maiden Swordsmanship was she better than her martial arts sister Li Mochou. I don't think so, I think she was still inferior to Li Mochou.
--- The only reason XLN lost was because she doesnt have the innerPower that age brings to LMC? XLN got the jadeHeartManual (which counters QZ's innerPower using unorthodox accumulation techniques) and also the JadeMaidenSwordplay.

[Anonymous]

To Athen: Thx for the info. Wasnt that interested previously.

[Ardor]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
Chow Bak Tung invented the Left/Right Hand Technique during his years on Peach Blossom Island . . . mainly to alleviate his boredom while being held prisoner there by Wong Yerk See. Chow Bak Tung taught this technique to Gwok Jing when the latter came to Peach Blossom Island for Wong Yung's hand in marriage.

Years later, Chow Bak Tung found himself with Little Dragon Girl in a cave. Chow Bak Tung asked Little Dragon Girl who was smarter, Gwok Jing or Wong Yung. Little Dragon Girl said that Wong Yung was indeed much smarter. Chow Bak Tung then told her, to her surprise, that while it wasn't difficult to teach Gwok Jing the Left/Right Hand Technique, neither he nor Gwok Jing ever succeeded in teaching the technique to Wong Yung. Little Dragon Girl initially could not believe that there existed a martial art that the less intelligent could learn more readily than the intelligent. Chow Bak Tung then challenged Little Dragon Girl to draw a square with one hand and a circle with another. To Chow Bak Tung's surprise, Little Dragon Girl was able to do this easily. When Chow asked her how she was able to accomplish this, she replied that she shunted all thought out of her mind other than the task of drawing the square and the circle. That was when Chow identified Little Dragon Girl as another suitable candidate to learn the Left/Right Hand Technique.

I can't even draw a perfect square with 1 hand, dratz.


6days: What I am saying is, DGQB's true abilities are not known and it is meant to not be known. SM and DaMo as well.

[sixdays]

to ardor:

okay, i can agree with that.

however, he still has more basis for comparison than Damo or sweeper...at least we know that he roamed jianghu and beat the crap out of everyone himself.

[Anonymous]

Athen: Huang Yaoshi replied:"Central Divinity, North Beggar and West Venom have passed away many years ago. This reverend Yideng here is South Emperor and brother Zhou is the younger martial arts brother of Central Divinity."
Zhou Botong said:"If my martial arts brother was still alive, would you [GWM_lv10] be able to withstand ten of his stances?"
--- ZBT may believe as WCY lives til that moment or the "old" WCY? Interesting to note 9Yin is a "taoist" tome and WCY is an enlightened "taoist." Meaning, 9Yin to him (unlike others) suits his personality perfectly. It's a "taoists" tome and nirvana to WCY so to speak. WCY may be the only one after HuangShang to fully unleash 9Yin.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Anonymous
WCY may be the only one after HuangShang to fully unleash 9Yin.

Doubtful. Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung had possession of the 9 Yum Jen Ging, and he read it and understood it, but he *never* actively practiced it, let alone used it in combat.

[duguxiaojing]

how much of 9yin did WCY know did he memoreize the etire text?

[Dirt]

Ling Hu Chong's in sword skill is a draw with Chong Xu. So, unless Wong Chong Yang and Chong Xu are a match for one another (and therefore, Chong Xu is a little better than HYS), this isn't even a real fight.

[Tazzy1972]

guys,

it is just not fair to compare figthers from 2 different eras, jus like comparing the Lakers team in the 80's and the present one. (Laker's fan here)

[eeyore]

Both won't fight unfairly because both knew that each other character was a gentlemen like. WCY certainly not like TBG who LHC has to trick to win . WCY even got tricked by XLN's teacher and admit defeated from that match.

So both is to honourable to trick each other. Hence, the fight will never occur.

IMHO.

[Whsie]

LHC at end of XAJH wins. After LHC learns YJJ, I don't think anyone can stop him, including the 5 greats. Possibly even XF, GJ, YG, and ZWJ. All this is of course if you assume the YJJ is as strong as it was said. Again, HSDS said that 9 Yang is about par with Shaolin's strongest internal which is YJJ. So add about ZWJ's internal to LHC's then that would be a internal that could possibly be in the unbeatables level, higher than the supreme. No doubt, LHC wins. Afterall, WCY's speciatly is his Xian Tian Gong which is internal. If he gets beat by that, I don't think WCY can win.

[Panadol]

LHC at end of XAJH wins. After LHC learns YJJ, I don't think anyone can stop him, including the 5 greats. Possibly even XF, GJ, YG, and ZWJ. All this is of course if you assume the YJJ is as strong as it was said. Again, HSDS said that 9 Yang is about par with Shaolin's strongest internal which is YJJ. So add about ZWJ's internal to LHC's then that would be a internal that could possibly be in the unbeatables level, higher than the supreme. No doubt, LHC wins. Afterall, WCY's speciatly is his Xian Tian Gong which is internal. If he gets beat by that, I don't think WCY can win.

YJJ is not that that strong is it?

At the end of every book Duan Yu would own all. but for the question, end of the book LHC will win, before the end, WCY

[Whsie]

YJJ is strong. It said specifically in HSDS that 9 Yang is around the level of Shaolin's strongest internal. As we all know, YJJ is Shaolin's strongest internal. That would translate to YJJ=9Yang.