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Thread: Was the Jin Empire finished by the end of LOCH?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Was the Jin Empire finished by the end of LOCH?

    It seemed to me that at the end of LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES, the Juchen Jin Empire, while definitely on its last legs, was not quite finished yet . . . and would not be until about halfway through the 13-year interim between LOCH and ROCH. Towards the end of LOCH, we follow Gwok Jing as he assisted Genghis Khan and the Mongols in their war against the Khwarazm Sultanate. Prince Yeun Nan Hung Lit of the Jin Empire and Sultan Muhammad II of the Khwarazm Sultanate were allies, and Yeun Nan Hung Lit was at the Khwarazm stronghold of Samarkand when he was finally captured by Genghis Khan's forces, but we never really see Mongol forces attacking Yenjing or other Jin cities in *China* during LOCH. Moreover, Genghis Khan died in the year 1227 . . . and his death occurred at the time LOCH ended. The Jin Empire would continue to exist for another seven years, however, until 1234. As of the last chapter of LOCH, it would seem the Mongols were still busy pursuing the remaining Jin forces (as well as consolidating the empire among the four sons of Genghis after the Khan's death), which explains why Gwok Jing and Wong Yung were able to enjoy thirteen years of peace between the end of LOCH and the beginning of ROCH.

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    Senior Member SolidSnake's Avatar
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    It is smart of JY to take this period into account. He probably already planned to write ROCH before finish writing LOCH.

    He still makes a lot of confusion because of age problem though.
    For example, Yang Kang, Guo Jing and Tului is more or less the same age.
    How can Hu Bi Li, Tului's fourth son, is already a mature prince when meeting teenage Yang Guo?
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    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
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    which explains the presence of GF right??

    also maybe hu bi lei was conceived when tulei was 18 or 19?? so he would be at least a few years older than YG...

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    First son Jochi(?) didn't get to be sucessor because of suspicion of whether he was Genghis' real son or not(but that's another story ).

    So Ogatai became sucessor.Then in 1233 or 1234,when Jochi died
    in a war against the Jin,Ogatai was more than determined to avenge him,so the campaign was rather speeded up by Ogatai to end quickly by 1234.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Kublai Khan was in his early twenties when he first appeared in ROCH...just a few years older than Yeung Gor. Logically, then, there *was* a baby Kublai "off-camera" somewhere in Mongolia during LOCH. In fact, he was probably born at about the same time that Gwok Jing returned to China with the Gong Nam 6 Freaks.

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    Senior Member SolidSnake's Avatar
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    GJ went to Mainland before he reach 18. Taking assumption that Tului is at the same age, then he (Tului) was married pretty young, since the prince is the second son of Tului. A few years difference between YG and the prince means a lot in this context. Could it be that Tului was already married at the age of 10?
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolidSnake
    GJ went to Mainland before he reach 18. Taking assumption that Tului is at the same age, then he (Tului) was married pretty young, since the prince is the second son of Tului. A few years difference between YG and the prince means a lot in this context. Could it be that Tului was already married at the age of 10?
    It might not have been unusual in the context of Mongol customs at the time. Mongolian cultural experts?

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    SolidSnake, what you're saying basically implies that Tolui could make a baby at the age of 10

    Tolui in the novel was about 3 years older than Guo Jing, so by the time GJ left Mongolia, Tolui was alread 21. No surprise that he already had a few year old son.
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    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
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    so he could have been a father a a tender age of 17-18 years old

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    Senior Member odbayarb2000's Avatar
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    Interesting topic, I found while digging old threads.

    JY got Tului's (Tolui) age really wrong here. Historically he is born in 1192. He married in 1203 (or met his wife). His first son Munkh (Mongke) was born in 1209 when he was 17. His second son Khubilai (Khublai) was born in 1215.

    I speculate that Guo jing is born around 1200. that makes most sense to me. So Tolui is much older than Guo jing.


    Mongolians married young in early days. there were a custom when a boy reaches certain age (usually around 10) he will be engaged and will leave to live with his in-laws. There are few reasons for this,

    - He will be separated from his parents, especially from mother. Since mothers tend to overly protect and spoil their children. It will help with his independence and maturity. It's not like he is suddenly abandoned or orphaned but future in-laws will be there to guide and help him. Since the father in-laws have invested interest in his good upbringing. If the boy is able, the future-wife to be will lead better life.

    - He will live with his future-wife to be. They will grow together and most cases grow closer. they will learn how to be adults and how to lead life in steppes together under surveillance of their father and mother.

    When time is right and their sexual maturity kicks in, they will wed and usually gets new ger (yurt), livestock and pasture land from boy's father. The girl or bride also brings a dowry in variety of forms. I don't have the data on average marriage age but common belief is that it was around 15-17.
    Last edited by odbayarb2000; 12-22-12 at 03:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by odbayarb2000 View Post
    Interesting topic, I found while digging old threads.

    JY got Tului's (Tolui) age really wrong here. Historically he is born in 1192. He married in 1203. His first son Munkh (Mongke) was born in 1209 when he was 17. His second son Khubilai (Khublai) was born in 1215.

    I speculate that Guo jing is born around 1200. that makes most sense to me. So Tolui is much older than Guo jing.
    According to the historical timeline, that makes sense. Of course, Jin Yong (and adaptations of LOCH) typically depicts Gwok Jing and Tolui as close in age, and though it's never made explicit, it always seems that Gwok Jing is the (slightly) older of the two.

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    Senior Member odbayarb2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    According to the historical timeline, that makes sense. Of course, Jin Yong (and adaptations of LOCH) typically depict Gwok Jing and Tolui as close in age, and though it's never made explicit, it always seems that Gwok Jing is the (slightly) older of the two.

    Well, It would make more sense if Tului is depicted little older than GJ, perhaps 3 or 4 years. But it's such a minor detail. No big deal.
    Last edited by odbayarb2000; 12-22-12 at 03:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by odbayarb2000 View Post
    Well, It would make more sense if Tului is depicted little older than GJ, perhaps 3 or 4 years. But it's such in minor detail. No big deal.
    In the bigger picture, historically, the Jin Empire should still be around (albeit on its last legs) at the time that ROCH begins, but the novels/adaptations always indicate that the Jin Empire was definitively finished by the end of LOCH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    In the bigger picture, historically, the Jin Empire should still be around (albeit on its last legs) at the time that ROCH begins, but the novels/adaptations always indicate that the Jin Empire was definitively finished by the end of LOCH.
    Yes, it seems. But According to Condor time-line, Chinggis Kaan (Genghis Khan) died few years earlier than historical one.

    historically Chinggis Khaan died in 1227, But in LOCH he died when GJ was still in his early twenties. And Yang Guo is born around same time.

    I speculate that YG was born around 1223-1224.
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    Quote Originally Posted by odbayarb2000 View Post
    Mongolians married young in early days. there were a custom when a boy reaches certain age (usually around 10) he will be engaged and will leave to live with his in-laws. There are few reasons for this,

    - He will be separated from his parents, especially from mother. Since mothers tend to overly protect and spoil their children. It will help with his independence and maturity. It's not like he is suddenly abandoned or orphaned but future in-laws will be there to guide and help him. Since the father in-laws have invested interest in his good upbringing. If the boy is able, the future-wife to be will lead better life.

    - He will live with his future-wife to be. They will grow together and most cases grow closer. they will learn how to be adults and how to lead life in steppes together under surveillance of their father and mother.
    It's suck, pathetic and uncivilized. Why would anyone wants to leave his family to live with another family at the age of 10? I feel bad for the boys. There is no way that the in law family would treat them better than his own family. No wonder Confucianism was superior to other cultures during ancient time. No wonder Kublai Khan abandon his own and adopt the Chinese lifestyle and ruling after he found the Yuan Dynasty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    It's suck, pathetic and uncivilized. Why would anyone wants to leave his family to live with another family at the age of 10? I feel bad for the boys. There is no way that the in law family would treat them better than his own family. No wonder Confucianism was superior to other cultures during ancient time. No wonder Kublai Khan abandon his own and adopt the Chinese lifestyle and ruling after he found the Yuan Dynasty.

    http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...2#.UNftEW_LT4c
    And a society that sent young members of its ruling class to be educated away from home conquered a quarter of the globe and even today are recognised as an acme of civilisation. I'm fairly confident that you follow their way of thinking rather more than you follow Confucianism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    And a society that sent young members of its ruling class to be educated away from home conquered a quarter of the globe and even today are recognised as an acme of civilisation. I'm fairly confident that you follow their way of thinking rather more than you follow Confucianism.
    Wow, so moving out of the family at the age of 10 to live with the in law family as EDUCATED AWAY FROM HOME?? I feel sorry for those boys. I can't imagine how many of them got molested/rape by their future wife family members. Back in the ancient time, Mongolians were considered as uncivilized barbarians so they had nothing to be proud of. Yes, they conquered a quarter of the globe but it was short lived. How powerful is Mongolia now? I would say pretty damn weak compare to other civilized societies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by odbayarb2000 View Post
    Mongolians married young in early days. there were a custom when a boy reaches certain age (usually around 10) he will be engaged and will leave to live with his in-laws. There are few reasons for this,

    - He will be separated from his parents, especially from mother. Since mothers tend to overly protect and spoil their children. It will help with his independence and maturity. It's not like he is suddenly abandoned or orphaned but future in-laws will be there to guide and help him. Since the father in-laws have invested interest in his good upbringing. If the boy is able, the future-wife to be will lead better life.

    - He will live with his future-wife to be. They will grow together and most cases grow closer. they will learn how to be adults and how to lead life in steppes together under surveillance of their father and mother.

    When time is right and their sexual maturity kicks in, they will wed and usually gets new ger (yurt), livestock and pasture land from boy's father. The girl or bride also brings a dowry in variety of forms. I don't have the data on average marriage age but common belief is that it was around 15-17.
    I heard some boys already had to manage their households at age 12 while their parents went out hunting/fighting/scavenging. They got married aroung then which was their age of maturity. Not sure when the sexual interaction started but since people back then died early, they probably had kids early too. There was no choice but to mature early due to all the people dying early in wars and in diseases. The more kids the stronger the tribe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by charbydis View Post
    I heard some boys already had to manage their households at age 12 while their parents went out hunting/fighting/scavenging. They got married aroung then which was their age of maturity. Not sure when the sexual interaction started but since people back then died early, they probably had kids early too. There was no choice but to mature early due to all the people dying early in wars and in diseases. The more kids the stronger the tribe.
    How can a 12 years old boy able to manage their household?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    How can a 12 years old boy able to manage their household?
    People died young and aged quickly back then. Qin Shi Huang was only 13 when he was crowned, Alexander the Great was still a teenager when he lead his first cavalry charge, Kangxi at 10 ascended yo the throne and defeated Oboi at age 15.

    In this context a 12 year old running a family is not that odd.

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