Energy-breaking Stance in Dugu 9 Swords

[Stance]

How does the Energy-breaking Stance work? Is it like the Great Star Reversal of MuRong Fu, but instead of reversing an attack it absorbs it?

Can it counter palm strikes like HL18Z?

[Ren Wo Xing]

No one knows. It was never performed, nor explained in detail.

[sixdays]

*cracks knuckles*

ah, another topic about DGQB's martial arts. i'm ready, i'm willing...

when i look at the way the other stances in DG9J are used, the philosophy behind them actually seems quite simple. if you are carrying a weapon, then i will use my sword to make you drop it --- by hitting the acupuncture point on your wrist. if you throw a projectile at me, i will render it useless --- by becoming so fast that i can simply knock them down. the list goes on, but i'm confident you can see the point here...DGQB basically has a simple thought, and invents a stance to make it happen. it sounds too simple --- and it is. that's the real essence of DGQB's martial arts, in that it's uncluttered by steps and methods...that's why DG9J was able to be so brilliant. it focused on the opponent, rather than the user. i believe that to create the energy-breaking stance, DGQB thought something like this:

"hm. to defeat high internal energy blasts, i must stop (intercept) the blasts before they are able to be used against me. can i stop his palm outright? hm...only if i have more internal energy than he does. it's either that, or i cut off his arms."

and then, his thoughts went no further...not to a new internal cultivation technique, and not to incorporate an old one like 9yin/9yang/YJJ, etc. he simply went to make his internal energy greater --- and what's the technique that makes DGQB have incredible internal energy?

(everybody now)

SNAKE BLADDERS AND IRONSWORD KUNGFU!

*clap clap clap*

now, this is an exaggeration on my part, because i cannot claim to have one ounce of the martial arts genius that JY gives to DGQB. i actually think that there probably IS some sort of energy-breaking stance that is ingenius and will allow someone to stop an enemy with higher internal energy. perhaps, like XWT in SoD, DGQB can redirect an opponent's energy using his own body and sword. regardless of what he does for the energy-breaking stance, though, DGQB must have realized that it was not enough...or else he would have stuck with DG9J all his life (much like Z3F stuck with taichi). however, he moved on to ironsword/woodensword/no sword progession, which tells me this:

in the end, to defeat a man with high internal energy, i should just train to have higher internal energy than him, learn how to focus it properly, and then beat the crap out of him.

again, it sounds waaaay too simple --- but this was DGQB's way. he had unlimited martial arts potential, and could not see a limit...that's why he could set his sights so high and actually make them work. i mean, even his physical training seems absurd compared to techniques like 9yin/9yang....yet with DGQB's style of training, YG can catch up to the Greats at a similar rate of growth as QZ + 9yin. (pls guys, don't turn this into a YG vs. GJ thing, not yet) the point is, the true energy-breaking stance of DGQB is to simply have more internal energy than your opponent.

for people who do not have unlimited potential like DGQB and sweeper monk, however, we must find another way...and that's why other martial arts are created. like bruce lee said, martial arts in its truest form is simply an expression of self...so to express himself, DGQB chose this way. i would choose to surrender, go find me a hot lady and play DG1J with her...

it's goodtimes.


to answer your questions, stance:

1. it doesn't seem likely that DGQB would create a stance to absorb energy. after all, his main philosophy was to intercept, or attack in such a way to defeat his enemy's attack as well. it would make more sense that he would redirect (not necessarily reverse like MRF) the energy, or find some way to actually break through it by using his own sword intention. beyond this rough idea, i really cannot answer you...

2. can anything stop HL18Z? but seriously, folks...

hah, jus playin. but the problem is that HL18Z is a pure yang technique (not counting GJ's infusion of 9yin...that as his own creation, and not originally intended for HL18Z). since it is pure yang, that means that it's pure, crushing, crazy power...and the only way to counter that is to either dodge it, meet it head on, or redirect it.

let's think about this. to meet it head on requires that you have superior energy to win; to dodge really has nothing to do with swordplay, so it cannot be the stance; therefore, the thing that would make the most sense would be that, again, the energy breaking stance is some sort of redirecting kungfu. can it stop HL18Z? that depends on who's using the HL18Z...if it was XF, then i'm betting that this whole forum will say NO WAY! even if it was GJ, it'd be tough fight because of his high level of energy...

but i can confidently say that if one were able to use no-sword technique and bring his internal energy to the same level as the HL18Z user, then the no-sword man would win for sure.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by sixdays
in the end, to defeat a man with high internal energy, i should just train to have higher internal energy than him, learn how to focus it properly, and then beat the crap out of him.

I have a question. In SOD, FQY emphasized to LHC that Sword technique is better than Qi technique (as emphasized by Yue Buqun). Now does that mean that Yue Buqun was actually the correct one if Dugu himself thought as you said so above?

[philip]

well, on the sword vs qi issue, they are both right and both wrong...it really depends on the person i would say.

but, dugu's theory never disagreed with the importance of qi. FCY only disliked the way YBQ's emphasized sword strokes to be exactly the way they are taught...too stuborn and unwilling to improvise during battle. since dugu 9 sword focused on no stnace...he obviously would not agree with YBQ's heavy emphasis on stances

[rabadi]

Originally posted by philip
FCY only disliked the way YBQ's emphasized sword strokes to be exactly the way they are taught...too stuborn and unwilling to improvise during battle. since dugu 9 sword focused on no stnace...he obviously would not agree with YBQ's heavy emphasis on stances

I see. I guess I got the wrong impression because FQY did not teach LHC any internal energy technique. Thanks.

[sixdays]

what FCY said has to be taken into context of the era. in that time, internal energy could not compare even to the levels in the condor trilogy, not to mention DGSD. at that point, i dont think anyone would possess enough internal energy to overwhelm a user of DG9J. as a general rule tho, it makes sense that internal energy powers the no-sword theory. therefore, having great internal energy is key to achieving greatness in using DGQB's techniques.

however, internal energy is not the only requirement. the ability to focus your internal energy to be used like a sword is also very important...and that's why you must first go through ironsword and wooden sword training. ironsword trains you to use your internal energy WITH the sword, while wooden sword trains you to shape your internal energy into the sword. when you master the wooden sword stage, you will have the skills to use your internal energy AS a sword.

so there you have it. Yue Buqun's argument was that internal energy rather than sword techniques was the key to success in huashan sword arts. the rival school thought that techniques were more important than internal energy. in reality, they're both retarded...they should have just practiced together. strong internal energy powering advanced sword techniques? anyone could see that the combination is stronger than each part separately.

you know, i really think DGQB should have started a martial arts school. everyone that practiced his arts met with immense success...if there had been a dugu sword school from the start, there wouldn't be any pansy 5sword alliance to begin with. he would have beaten them all with a little 5yearold boy.

[Anonymous]

Read ch19 of SmilingProudWanderer of Lanny's translation regarding the following quote:
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InterestingLines of ch19 (repost from Lanny's site):
1. “Yes, yes!” Xiang Wentian smacked his own thigh in excitement. “[...] I gave it a name and called it the ‘Minor Art of the Energy Absorbing to the Ground’.” [...] Besides, this Kung Fu is only useful when the opponent is attacking with his inner energy and can’t be used to attack in offense. At the time when the opponent suddenly felt that his inner energy was discharging in a steady stream,
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[Ground Electricity. It's probable Dugu (and 9th stance) would think of this with his many experiences in Swordfighting, since the sword acts like a conductor and it's only a "trick" (slight InnerPower required to redirect InnerPower attack).]

[sixdays]

to anonymous:

that was ch 18, but i'll forgive you. as to whether DGQB used redirection for his energy-breaking stance, i say that it's unlikely. after all, it's called energy- BREAKING stance...not redirection stance. while this word analysis doesn't necessarily mean that DGQB sought to break an energy attack rather than to redirect it, i just think that redirecting is not his style. in the other 8 stances, DGQB incorporates the theory "attack as defense", much like bruce lee. in real life, if someone was about to kick bruce he would not simply block and kick back; he would instead kick and break the guy's leg as the leg was kicking towards him. DGQB is the same way in the few stances that we get to see (acutally, we only get to see swordbreaking, blade/saber breaking, axebreaking, whip/chain breaking, and projectile breaking i think, so we're talking about 5 stances out of 9 in action). that's why i think that rather than purely using a defensive maneuver like redirecting energy, DGQB would work out a technique where you are attacking the enemy while rendering the enemy's energy useless...both at the same time.

perhaps he used redirection of energy in combination with something else...

[CC]

Having to redirect the enemies energy sounds too much like having to block it. And according to FCY, DG never had to block anything.

Maybe his chi breaking stance is just to attack the guy hard and fast (i.e. the Drunken Xiao Feng School of Combat).

Also,I don't like to take FCY's words at face value. Just like how tales of Wong Fei Hong and Yang Lu Chan get embellished by current writers, FCY could have heard the embellished version of the DG legend.

[sixdays]

hard to say...after all, FCY learned DG9J SOMEhow. seeing as how SoD is after the condor trilogy and YG neverl learned DG9J anyways, how do you think FCY learned it?

it was another bird, man...another ELEPHANT bird...

-( o. O )-

[duguxiaojing]

come on sixd u know better than 2 bring the whole one era stronger then another thing up your givin on on Condor trilogy guys when u do that

[sixdays]

to xiaojing:

i was just talking about the legacy of DGQB's sword art. i was just thinking that other than YG, the earliest practitioner of DG sword art that JY mentions is FCY. and since YG didn't learn DG9J, then FCY had to learn it from somewhere else...however, when the shaolin monk (fangzheng's martial brother) saw LHC use DG9J, he immediately recognized the kungfu as DG9J, and even mentions FCY. this means that somewhere along the line, FCY became fairly famous for using DG9J...yet YBQ didn't recognize DG9J at all. instead, YBQ thought that LHC was practicing some rare huashan sword art, and that's why YBQ said that LHC was on the "evil" side of huashan sword art when LHC first came down the mountain.

so my conclusion is this: from the time DGQB died to the point of SoD, there have always been followers of DGQB's sword art. it would make sense that no one other than YG would learn ironsword/no-sword art, because DGQB only discovered this kungfu after he became somewhat of a hermit, kind of like ZBT. however, DG9J should be (and was, evidently) quite famous throughout the martial world. is it possible that DGQB wrote a manuscript?

my apologies if it looked like i was tryin to bring up the "theory of deterioration" thing, i don't really care about that stuff.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by sixdays
...YBQ thought that LHC was practicing some rare huashan sword art, and that's why YBQ said that LHC was on the "evil" side of huashan sword art when LHC first came down the mountain.

Actually I think YBQ thought that LHC was using the Evil Resisting Sword Art from LPZ's family.

[duguxiaojing]

2 6d

Nice cause really i dont believe in the whole declining theory i agree SOME martial arts got easier to learn so its somewhat proof that something was lost along the way but when u look at the best of the best in each era i thinkits unfair and somewhat biased to just completly disrgard them cause there is no sweeper in there gen. Personally i think my belief sys is like this cause im more of a condor tril fan and find that the declining theory(greater fighters doing crazier feats whatever whatever) is used by DGSD fans 2 trash us..srry man im a Guo jing greats and somewhat Yg guy no matter what XF fans say i WILL NOT believe that he would destroy GJ and YG as qucikly as sum claim. May b that will change when i start on DGSD i used 2 hate YG b4 i read up on him.

[sixdays]

that's right...come and join the YG revolution...hahah

you know, i can't argue that as a whole, most heroes in DGSD are vastly superior in terms of INTERNAL ENERGY. however, as fighters it's difficult to tell...i think the standout regarding internal energy levels in the trilogy is GJ. i hate to admit it, but he's got YG beaten here. it's not clear to me whether he would be below XF to the level of say, LHC compared to YG.

i think we all have to keep in mind that DGSD was written AFTER the condor trilogy. in the trilogy, we see the most balance of high internal energy coupled with advanced techniques...it's sort of a "covers everything" period. to me, however, DGSD focuses much more on the fantastic...everyone gains incredible kungfu (6MSJ) and insane levels of energy (XZ) out of nowhere, really. the only hero who really trained for his arts was XF. i think JY was trying to make a different point with DGSD, and that's why the characters spent so little time going through his more typical formula of getting a good kungfu, training for a while, and coming back strong. DGSD's heroes already start off strong, because JY didn't really want to spend time on their kungfu development. his real goal was to elaborate on the theme of identity first showed in GJ's life in LOCH. some examples:

-DY thought his true love to be his sister, and then he finds out that he has a different biological father. pretty confusing times...

-XZ is stripped of his shaolin monk identity, and much of his journey is him coming to grips with being the XY heir and loving a woman without feeling like he's breaking his monk vows. and eating meat...

-XF begins his life as QF, a han warrior who is not even really respected by the clan he belongs to. he then becomes XF, a man of keitan heritage who must choose between his two countries. probably the biggest crisis in the novel...and fittingly, it ends in suicide. talk about "no way out"...

on the other hand, i think SoD was written to elaborate on the taboo love of XLN and YG, and also to expand the idea of "what's good and what's evil?" first presented in HSDS.

-5sword school alliance was actually filled with evil jerks, while sun/moon sect was actually filled with some decent people.

-LHC has his origins in an orthodox school, but ends up in love with an "evil sect" girl

i would continue, but i think everyone sees the parallels here.

there are more examples, but i think that's enough. JY wrote DGSD and SoD to elaborate on his greatest work, the condor trilogy. that's why we see people developing their kungfu over a long time in condor trilogy, while DGSD and SoD have their heroes learn or possess their kungfu much more quickly. it's so that he could spend more time on elaborating the themes, and less time explaining why his main characters became so powerful.

[sixdays]

to rabadi:

YBQ thought it was evil-resisiting sword art LATER, after seeing the heterodox huashan school's arts and knowing that LHC's style was very much superior to theirs. this is also the seed planted in YBQ's heart to gain the evil-resisting sword art for himself, and that's why he took in LPZ so readily...because, like everyone else, he just wanted the manuscript.

man, i think SoD didn't have enough girls so JY had to make up a kungfu style so that there would be more women by the end of the book.

[Anonymous]

6Day: as to whether DGQB used redirection for his energy-breaking stance, i say that it's unlikely. after all, it's called energy- BREAKING stance...not redirection stance.
--- Sorry about that, let me rephrase that. (Thx for the headsup. ) When I say "redirection" I meant: the incoming Chi attack hits the sword [which Lanny says is a conductor] and goes into the user's body and gets redirected internally [kinda like a (lightning rod)/superconductor again] and ground it. The previous reasons and these reasons why I think so:
1. Dugu doesnt have to step back. It's siphoning the energy to the ground and the opponent will "eventually"/(in time but not during the attack) regain InnerPower. So it's an attack on InnerPower as defense.
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2. Now Palm-breaking and other stances can have effect on opponent. Since another sword move is faster than an opponent's massive Chi-buildup attack. Also, opponent attacks now doesnt have as much killer-power, thus bringing the opponent down to Dugu's level of attack with Dugu having a major advantage in techniques.
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3. Dugu is smart enough to come up with the sword as being a conductor (kinda like IronSword powerup). He has intimate knowledge of "swords" and their properties.
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4. Here is "missile-breaking" stance. ["<<<" indicates significant parts]

From Lanny's translations, chapter 10
The word “Missile” in the name of the Missile-breaking Stance included the many different kinds of missiles and projectiles. To be able to learn this stance, the practitioner must first learn the skill of <<<distinguishing>>> the type of the missile by ear. He not only should be <<<capable of blocking>>> the many kinds of missiles coming from the enemy with his long sword, but also <<<redirecting the force>>> in the missiles to send them back and injure the enemy with his own missiles.

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CC: Also,I don't like to take FCY's words at face value.
--- Agreed. However, there is nothing against his words either. So, I believed it.

[sixdays]

to anonymous:

the redirecting of the "missiles", or projectiles as it were, are of a different variety than actually conducting internal energy and moving it in a different way.

the problem i have with your theory is this: who in their right mind would meet a sword head-on with their palm? if you're saying that DGQB is fast enough to, again, intercept my opponent's palm with my sword, then all i have to do is be faster with my palm than you are with your sword. and honestly, that's entirely possible...a hand should have less wind resistance than a hand with a sword, right? i somehow think that energy-breaking stance involves a theory that is more complex. after all, if it can be simply defeated by moving my hands faster, than it's not a very good technique is it?

just throwing out the ideas, feel free to rip em all apart.

to CC:

true, FCY may not be telling the most honest, object truth ever. however, regarding DG9J i tend to trust him. no matter how eccentric he is, he still did master the sword technique...and we've seen no one else in the the JY universe besides YG and LHC learn anything from DGQB's style.

on the idea of DGQB never having to block, however, i'll agree with you that FCY didn't really know what he was talking about. DGQB was already dead by the time of YG, so how could FCY have ever met him? that means that FCY deduced from the genius of DGQB's kungfu that a man of that skill would never have to block if he fought anyone from FCY's era. i think of it like this:

FCY watches an and1 mixtape, and sees all these wonderful basketball moves and learns them. then he heads over to a local playground and defeats everyone without much trouble; he then thinks, "wow! these and1 guys must have never been blocked because those moves are so great." however, FCY doesn't know anything about the NBA.

in the same way, i think FCY is saying that DGQB wouldn't have to block anyone from HIS era, not in all of history.

[Anonymous]

6Day: who in their right mind would meet a sword head-on with their palm? if you're saying that DGQB is fast enough to, again, intercept my opponent's palm with my sword, then all i have to do is be faster with my palm than you are with your sword.
--- In ch18 SmilingPW, LHC pierced the palm of an opponent using palm-breaking stance. The opponent/elder was crazy enough (actually LHC was crazy enough to meet the force of the palm head-on). I guess if the opponent is cocky enough ... It is after that moment that the sword acts as a conductor.

“Watch out!” Yue Hou yelled as he pushed out with both palms and a strong gust of energy force blasted toward Linghu Chong.

“Oh no!” Linghu Chong groaned inwardly.

At the time Yue Hou was at a good distance from him. When Yue struck out with his two palms remotely, he had no way of warding the attack off using his long sword. Just when the thought of jumping out of the way popped in his mind, a freezing sensation had shot up his entire body. He couldn’t help but shiver. The palm strike from each of You Hou’s hands had different attributes. One had the force of Yin while the other had the force of Yang. The Yang palm strike was launched earlier, yet the Yin force reached the target first. Linghu Chong only had a fraction of a second to pull himself together when the burning hot energy force struck his body and shook his body violently, almost knocked the wind out of him. [...]
Succeeded with his remote palm strikes, You Hou figured that his opponent would at least drop down with severe injuries if not drop dead. He had not expected to see Linghu Chong getting off without a scratch. Then immediately after, many reflections from the sword tip flashed, all aiming at the center of his palms. Astounded, he crisscrossed his palms and struck out, one striking toward Linghu Chong’s face, the other one striking toward Linghu Chong’s lower abdomen. Just when he was about to release the energy forces for the strikes, he suddenly felt a violent pain: his one palm on the back of the other, both had been stringed together by the blade of Linghu Chong’s long sword.

--- As for the faster palm, LHC clearly shows he can draw his sword faster in his fights (except against DFBB).
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Here is the (Dugu 9th Stance)-like scene(s):

Linghu Chong felt his entire arm going numb and almost let go of the sword, but knowing that without his sword, he would have become a disabled person, he held onto the sword handle desperately as waves of force reached him through the long sword and crushed toward his heart channel in multiple bursts.
[...]
Suddenly, he felt a stream of hot energy penetrating his back through the “Da-Zhui Acupoint” and the stress coming from his hand lightened at once.

Linghu Chong’s spirit surged. He knew that Xiang Wentian must have lent him a helping hand. Then he immediately realized that Xiang Wentian had redirected the attacking energy force downward so it would flow from his arm to his waist, then to his heels, and eventually dissolving into the ground.

The Taoist Priest felt the sudden dissolution of his attacking energy force.
[...]
Xiang Wentian suggested, pointing his finger upward. “Brother, just now, when that cow-nose of the Emei School attacked you with his inner energy, what happened to the cow-nose’s inner energy force when I helped you with my inner strength?” he asked.

“Brother Xiang, I felt as though you redirected that Taoist Priest’s inner energy force into the ground,” Linghu Chong answered.
[...]
This Kung Fu of mine only utilizes simple techniques to graft one twig on another and redirects the opponent’s attacking inner force to the ground instead of causing any harm. I don’t have the least gain from it, myself. Besides, this Kung Fu is only useful when the opponent is attacking with his inner energy and can’t be used to attack in offense. At the time when the opponent suddenly felt that his inner energy was discharging in a steady stream, undoubtedly he would turn pale with fright, but it doesn’t take long for that amount of inner energy to regenerate. Why was I so sure that they would definitely return? Because as soon as the cow-nose found out that he didn’t really lose any bit of his essence, he would know that my ‘Minor Art of Energy Absorbing to the Ground’ is only bluffing and there’s nothing dreadful about it. I never liked playing deceiving tricks, that’s why I never used it before.”