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Thread: another YG and GJ thread

  1. #201
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    isnt sad palms sum fat based off 9 yin?

  2. #202
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    It cobined by all the martial arts that YG learned before, so possibly. But YG's knowledge of 9 Yin was very limited.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  3. #203
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    originally posted by ChronoReverse Um, the finger flicking technique isn't a weapon technique anymore than HL18P is a weapon technique. Sure, you could use XL18P to blast a boulder to crush a guy, but that doesn't make a a weapon technique.

    The Divine Finger Snap is perfectly capable of stopping a palm from another Great.
    unfortunately, this skill can also a very powerful weapon usage, so disqualifying the weapon usage part of divine finger flicking isn’t quite fair for HYS either, now is it?

    originally posted by superboyAnd also, the book didn't specifically stated that 36 years old GJ is weaker than 36 years old YG is of a different matter than the 'Super Sad Palms' that are being claimed. Because GJ and GLFW was already described to have martial arts level seperated from the smallest gap during their battle.
    the book didn’t state, but anyone can tell that a 36 year old YG is way superior than a 36 year old GLFW. GJ maybe somewhat superior to GLFW when he was 36, but it is a very small gap. Then, letz take a look at GLFW’s elephant-dragon-whatever skill…it takes an exponent of 2 for every level of progression…meaning that each level is so much higher than the previous one. It takes some hundred more times to progress from level 9 to level 10 than from level 1 to 2. If each level did not give some amazing improvement, why the hell would GLFW even bother to practice it for progression? He ain’t stupid. So obviously, GLFW after 16 years is far superior than he was before the 16 years

    originally posted by superboy But that was not in terms of internal energy that GJ was 70% of the Greats. And GJ might just be able to only last 150 moves or so if HYS and H7G gone all out at first. And also remember that the Greats did improve during the years. GJ being at the Greats level was no small achievement. GJ being able to tie with a Great at his 70s at age 33 already suggests that he progress a lot faster than them within the 13 years. It does not make more logic if he suddenly slow down at the start of ROCH.

    If you read what I said, I never said that GJ's 9 Yin is neccesary better than YG's wave training method. But I only used the rate of GJ's improvement to speculate that it is more likely that GJ has long surpased the Greats at least in term of internal energy. 33 year old GJ being equal to the internal energy level of OYF in his 70s means that his internal energy increase much higher. I thought is is more likely than him suddenly slowed down and began growing only at the Greats level. Other than that, 9 Yins internal energy are also much superior than the cultivation method of a Great. So it still prove that it is not as likely for him to not improve faster than them, and be much greater at the end of ROCH.
    if so, comparing by rate, YG improves so much more faster than GJ….in that same case, a 36 year old YG can definitely match a 56 year old GJ.
    Last edited by philip; 03-14-04 at 03:04 AM.

  4. #204
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    the book didn’t state, but anyone can tell that a 36 year old YG is way superior than a 36 year old GLFW. GJ maybe somewhat superior to GLFW when he was 36, but it is a very small gap. Then, letz take a look at GLFW’s elephant-dragon-whatever skill…it takes an exponent of 2 for every level of progression…meaning that each level is so much higher than the previous one. It takes some hundred more times to progress from level 9 to level 10 than from level 1 to 2. If each level did not give some amazing improvement, why the hell would GLFW even bother to practice it for progression? He ain’t stupid. So obviously, GLFW after 16 years is far superior than he was before the 16 years
    I already agreed that 36 years old GJ is weaker than 36 years old YG. I said so already.
    if so, comparing by rate, YG improves so much more faster than GJ….in that same case, a 36 year old YG can definitely match a 56 year old GJ.
    What did you use as a standard for improvement rate? I used the Greats since it is more safe having more people as a standard. And if YG is close to their level, it would logically suggest that GJ is probably better than YG. Now you can say that the rate is not always proportional. But I feel that saying GJ will suddenly slow down to the improvement rate of the Great level after the start of ROCH is even less possible. Especially considering 9 Yin is a superior art than the Great's methods. Even if YG do progess faster than GJ, he still won't be at the level of 56 years old GJ when he has 20 more years of cultivation.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  5. #205
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    I already agreed that 36 years old GJ is weaker than 36 years old YG. I said so already.
    then whether the book specifically states so or not doesn't matter, now does it?

    What did you use as a standard for improvement rate? I used the Greats since it is more safe having more people as a standard. And if YG is close to their level, it would logically suggest that GJ is probably better than YG. Now you can say that the rate is not always proportional. But I feel that saying GJ will suddenly slow down to the improvement rate of the Great level after the start of ROCH is even less possible. Especially considering 9 Yin is a superior art than the Great's methods. Even if YG do progess faster than GJ, he still won't be at the level of 56 years old GJ when he has 20 more years of cultivation.
    so why would GJ's improvement rate come linear, while YG's improvment rate see a curve? YG was able to keep up w/ GLFW for a while in terms of qi, after his short while of training w/ the condor. if there were two YG's competeting (in terms of internal energy) w/ GLFW at the time, i'm pretty sure GLFW would lose since 1 YG gave him so much trouble. That would mean, that in 16 years...YG should've surpassed GLFW at the end of ROCH, yet you claim they are only equal.

    I never said GJ would suddenly drop in an angle after the begining of ROCH, now did i? but, i do see GJ, (and most people in in JY's novels) having a logarithmic curve.

  6. #206
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    then whether the book specifically states so or not doesn't matter, now does it?
    There you are wrong. Although it is not stated directly, GJ having a very small gap with GLFW has already gave us the fact. But does not seems to be that clear with Sad Palms.

    so why would GJ's improvement rate come linear, while YG's improvment rate see a curve? YG was able to keep up w/ GLFW for a while in terms of qi, after his short while of training w/ the condor. if there were two YG's competeting (in terms of internal energy) w/ GLFW at the time, i'm pretty sure GLFW would lose since 1 YG gave him so much trouble. That would mean, that in 16 years...YG should've surpassed GLFW at the end of ROCH, yet you claim they are only equal.
    You also forget that YG had all his training in the past. HYS had already commented how good his internal energy was before his one month wave training. Plus, we do not know how much it take to give someone a little lock in internal energy. You might not even need to be too close to do so. But having the same amount of energy is a different matter. And also remember how hard GLFW trained for his next 16 years, yet YG was still able to catch up with him.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  7. #207
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    There you are wrong. Although it is not stated directly, GJ having a very small gap with GLFW has already gave us the fact. But does not seems to be that clear with Sad Palms.
    and what exactly does “clear w/ Sad Palms” suppose to mean? Would u like to enlighten us on what exactly is suppose to be clarified?

    You also forget that YG had all his training in the past. HYS had already commented how good his internal energy was before his one month wave training. Plus, we do not know how much it take to give someone a little lock in internal energy. You might not even need to be too close to do so. But having the same amount of energy is a different matter. And also remember how hard GLFW trained for his next 16 years, yet YG was still able to catch up with him.
    how effective was his training w/ the condor? well, compare YG vs GLFW before and after his training w/ condor. Before, he’d run away from battle w/ GLFW…and even from LMC. Even if you include YG’s previous training…that’z what? 4/5 years? So in 16 years, YG should’ve been 3/4 times more powerful than he was? Meaning YG at 36 could take on 4/5 20 year old YG (w/ water cultivation)? I don’t think so!

  8. #208
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by philip
    and what exactly does “clear w/ Sad Palms” suppose to mean? Would u like to enlighten us on what exactly is suppose to be clarified?



    how effective was his training w/ the condor? well, compare YG vs GLFW before and after his training w/ condor. Before, he’d run away from battle w/ GLFW…and even from LMC. Even if you include YG’s previous training…that’z what? 4/5 years? So in 16 years, YG should’ve been 3/4 times more powerful than he was? Meaning YG at 36 could take on 4/5 20 year old YG (w/ water cultivation)? I don’t think so!
    On the Sad Palms matter, how can I enlighten you? You do not ask a person to clarify a negitive, but instead, the side that suggests so need to provide the evidence to back it up instead.

    On YG's level, we are discussing about his internal energy. And his new 'mastered' Iron Sword technique is the reason why he gave GLFW such trouble. YG without the Iron Sword were no where near the level of GLFW 16 years ago. 16 years later, he was actually able to cattch up, and possibly a little better without the Iron Sword. So how do you know that the rate of his improvement rate is not proportional to his previous month training since he might actually be able to defeat GLFW with ease if he had his Iron Sword with him that time. And it was not that difficult to give a person a lock. My younger brother is much weaker than me, yet when I wrestled it to the ground, he gave me some difficulty to push his arm down when both of our arm were extended straight during the contest. Normally, I'll defeat him in arm westling in 3 seconds.
    Last edited by superboy; 03-14-04 at 04:03 AM.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  9. #209
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    Cool Replies/Theory

    duguX: I dont know what SPT was like but i think CC said he fought like "he was unaware of all awarness" could u translate that battle or atleast post it here PLEASE CC???i wanna see how it's described im a newb man i dont know jack bout SPT only that he rivals sweeper.
    --- All I can give u is the link to a discussion of SPT's potential.
    http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...light=formless
    .
    .
    .
    Super: But as we can see, GJ was about a tie to GLFW in martial arts and internal energy. But it was also stated that GLFW has 20 years more time to cultivate, while GJ was luckier(probably 9 Yin).GJ trained for about 16-17 years of 9 Yin from LOCH to the battle at Mongolian camp. Therefore, although it's only assuming, GJ progess over twice the speed of GLFW's internal art with 9 Yin.
    --- The problem with your "rate of improvement" is that it doesnt seem to map the reality of GJ: meaning, your "sampling rate" of the situation is not enough; (it's like comparing cheap audio recording to mp3 music). You used the startpoints with a "good estimate" of the rate of GJ but then just derive a comparison rate from there. So, I'll just map important points and let the graph draw itself:
    1. Let's begin at the hero's feast and GJ=GWM, and GJ "did" use HL18Z to clash with GWM. It's a "tie."
    .
    2. Now we move to YG's start of 16 year separation. GJ does not improve during this interval for the following reasons. 1) Other characters like LMC, Gongsun, Madame Gongsun, GMW, HuangRong, HYS, etc also did not improve and everyone comments on the improvements of YG. Like an RPG game, they and GJ are "static" characters. So, it isnt hard to assume that GJ=GWM is still ok. 2) GJ was recuperating from his event from "Mongolian camp" (aka ambush). 3) The time separating Hero'sFeast and the start of the 16year separation is short compared to "10years" that GJ spent training in seclusion (the time a "hero's improvement" usually takes place -- like ZWJ's 9Yang training).
    --- Aside: If we continue to use your previous "trend" of GJ up to now, GJ should "already" be better than GWM (instead of a reality "gap" and leveling during this interval).
    .
    3. Yet just prior/before the 16year separation, YG vs. GWM at QZ palace. YG is near (I think: need Noodles/Athena's translation; let us assume 85%-90%?) GWM's innerPower.
    .
    4. Now it's the 16year separation. GJ should be raising GX and then GPolo; just like teaching the Wu brothers and Guo Fu. Enclosed in quotes, for YG:
    During the 16 years:
    1. 3 months: let us assume 3 months (but doesnt matter cuz we will get a definite 1 year passed later) passed w/o anything, cuz he roamed JiangHu for "a few months."
    .
    2. 3 seasons passed: training w/ IronSword technique using woodenSword (and how hard to level up, esp for GJ)
    From that day on, he trained hard night and day on his internal energy and studied the art of the sword. Every timed it rained, he went to the mountain torrents to fight the water in order to increase the power in his sword strokes.
    Summer ended and autumn arrived, autumn went and winter came. Though Yang Guo trained with dedication, he made little progress in his internal energy and sword arts.
    However, he knew that his level of martial arts was already of a very high level, to gain any sort of improvement from such a state was in reality a hard task to accomplish so he wasn’t troubled by it.
    .
    3. "Grandtotal" a year passed: YG saw improvement I think YG=GWM (prior 16 year separation). We can still assume YG=GWM, and GWM=GJ because 1 year out of 16 years is not much considering GJ is babysitting, war, etc. So, YG=GJ roughly.
    Whenever flakes of snow got close, either the wind from the wooden sword or the force from his right sleeve would repel it. He continued for a half a day and felt that the power in both his sword and sleeve seemed to have made some improvements [in innerPower].
    It snowed for three days and Yang Guo practised in the snow each day.
    On the afternoon of the third day, the snow became even heavier.
    [...]
    From then on, he thought about how to increase his internal energy, about how to evade and how to strike out with the sword even in his dreams. He trained rigorously and as a result, his thoughts on Xiao Long Nuu did not engulf his mind as it was like in the previous months. The poison from the passionflower had now been cleansed from his body, his internal energy has improved, he was in prime shape and he no longer had the haggard and distressed look of old.
    It was now the anniversary [1 year] of his parting with Xiao Long Nuu.
    .
    4. "Grandtotal" 7 years passed: YG done with woodenSword stage and gain innerPower again.
    Spring went and autumn came, months flowed by. He trained his sword arts in the sea’s waves night and day, whatever the weather. The sound produced from the wooden sword was getting louder and louder where eventually it was able to produce great hues of noise but after sounding for a few months, the sound from the wooden sword got lighter and lighter until no more noise came from it. Another few months passed and the sword produced sound again. This process of going from soft to loud and loud to soft repeated itself seven times. Eventually, he was able to produce whatever sound he desired [from the woodenSword], loud or soft. By the time he reached this stage, he counted his fingers and realised he had been by the sea for six years.
    [...]
    By this time, when Yang Guo trained in the sea’s waves with the wooden sword in his hand, the wind generated from his sword could repel the waves and even the divine condor with its frightening strength could last not more than three stances of the wooden sword.
    .
    5. The other ( 16-7=9 ) years is unknown. Need reading but can assume his rate is like GJ.
    .
    .
    .
    Now let's take a look at innerPower "improvement rate" from training of GJ vs. YG:
    1. GJ: mainly 9Yin+(basic QZ), which means mainly 9Yin. Cuz QZ=(taoist training) and 9Yin=(Ultimate taoist training).
    .
    2. YG: (advanced QZ + JadeHeartManual), DGQB IronSword (waterfall and snow) training, DGQB tidal training. And (I surmise) a bit of 9Yin innerPower training. How? Recall that WangChongYang defeats LinChuYing's "black star" stuff against QZ: JadeHeartManual. The JadeHeart also has an innerPower portion that rivals/beats QZ. So, maybe an unknown 9Yin innerPower technique?
    .
    3. NotSure: GJ transferred innerPower to YG during YG's fake "fire deviation" to knife/kill GJ.
    .
    .
    Please correct me if wrong. Thx. Another essay outline done.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-14-04 at 05:33 AM.

  10. #210
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    Seeing how YG and GLFW got into an internal energy competition at the QZ temple...i would say YG's internal power gave GLFW quite some trouble.

    And it was not that difficult to give a person a lock. My younger brother is much weaker than me, yet when I wrestled it to the ground, he gave me some difficulty to push his arm down when both of our arm were extended straight during the contest. Normally, I'll defeat him in arm westling in 3 seconds.
    if you can wrestle him to the ground, means you've won the match. GLFW and YG were at a standstill...for a moment at least.

    Now, letz have 2 of your little bros vs one of you .

  11. #211
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by philip
    Seeing how YG and GLFW got into an internal energy competition at the QZ temple...i would say YG's internal power gave GLFW quite some trouble.



    if you can wrestle him to the ground, means you've won the match. GLFW and YG were at a standstill...for a moment at least.

    Now, letz have 2 of your little bros vs one of you .
    Yeah, but a little lock is a different story. Just like me. I may have westled my brother to the ground, but I was having trouble matching his arms. I may be a lot stronger, but he managed a lock before I was able to break the stalemate. I arm westled him before. Both of his arms equal to one of mine. So that doesn't prove that YG's improvement rate slowed down huh?
    And my other bro is just 6 years old. I can knock him down with one punch.
    Last edited by superboy; 03-14-04 at 04:43 AM.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  12. #212
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate Thread is now open at SPCNET Wuxia Forum, ladies and gentlemen. Please continue your Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor debate there.

    I won't lock this thread just yet, but all future Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor discussion should take place within that thread.

    Have fun.

  13. #213
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    then either ur bro really sucks at arm wrestling...or you need to take some wrestling lessons.

    One YG was giving GLFW plenty of trouble...i strongly think that two YGs would be able to defeat GLFW.

    Of course, we can also take a look at GLFW's improvement rate (again)

    his elephant-dragon-whatever cultivation requires twice the time to complete the next level than the previous level...so, letz do the math. So, say GLFW takes x amount of time to achieve level one, then level two would be 2x, level 3 is 4x, level 4 is 8x, level 5 is 16x, level 6 is 32x, level 7 is 64x, level eight is 128x, level 9 is 256x, and level ten would be 512x. So, assuming GLFW's improvement rate is linear, one year of training would give him the same results as any other year. In the 16 year of XLN's disappearance, GLFW progressed from level 7 to level 10, which would be 896x. so, divide 896 into 16 years, you'll get that x roughly = 0.01786. Since it takes 127x to get to level 7, then multiply 127 by x and you'll get 2.26...meaning that GLFW got about a bit more than 2 years of training prior to his match w/ GJ? i don't think so....

  14. #214
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    That cannot be put to conclusion because we are not to familiar about how his cultivation work. But the martial arts achievements depends on the person. And he also practiced very hard for 16 years after he suffered defeat. And YG gave GLFW a lot of trouble in battle with his Iron Sword, not on internal energy. Although he managed a losing lock, it still doesn't mean much. YG was already very strong on internal energy before the current training, and if we add it up, YG giving a little lock is not that unreasonable.

    PS: My brother is not more skillful than me in wrestling too.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  15. #215
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    To Super:
    "Sampling Rate:" what I mean is that more points in a graph leads to a better approximation of the "rate of innerPower increase" (since you connect more dots). In your case, you only have a slope and a starting point. The "cheap recording" vs. mp3 is inappropriate (I usually exaggerate when I cannot think anything appropriate at that moment in time. )

  16. #216
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    When the slope is obvious enough, you may not need too many coordinates to attach to it. GJ improving way faster than the Greats(33 years old GJ equal Greats in 70s). YG being close to a Great level at the end of ROCH. So easy to calculate.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  17. #217
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    That cannot be put to conclusion because we are not to familiar about how his cultivation work. But the martial arts achievements depends on the person. And he also practiced very hard for 16 years after he suffered defeat. And YG gave GLFW a lot of trouble in battle with his Iron Sword, not on internal energy. Although he managed a losing lock, it still doesn't mean much. YG was already very strong on internal energy before the current training, and if we add it up, YG giving a little lock is not that unreasonable.
    even so...by the end of 16 years...YG should be 3/4 times more powerful than he was before, and 36 year old YG would not be able to take on 4/5 20 year old YGs.

    Point of Ironsword in deadlock is to transfer internal energy thourh sword.

    yes...GLFW worked very hard during 16 years....and met drastic improvements, improveing faster than he did before, therefore, seeing that improvement rates are not LInear!

    When the slope is obvious enough, you may not need too many coordinates to attach to it. GJ improving way faster than the Greats(33 years old GJ equal Greats in 70s). YG being close to a Great level at the end of ROCH. So easy to calculate.
    not all graphs have have constant slopes...

  18. #218
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by philip
    even so...by the end of 16 years...YG should be 3/4 times more powerful than he was before, and 36 year old YG would not be able to take on 4/5 20 year old YGs.

    Point of Ironsword in deadlock is to transfer internal energy thourh sword.

    yes...GLFW worked very hard during 16 years....and met drastic improvements, improveing faster than he did before, therefore, seeing that improvement rates are not LInear!



    not all graphs have have constant slopes...
    I still don't see how it will make YG 4 more times more powerful. YG in terms of internal energy and without his Iron Sword. How can his previous internal energy before the wave training not be put into account and it was only a brief lock. Not really that big of a deal. It happens to me in real life too. And I remember you said in the other form that the Iron Sword gives you a better flow of energy too. GLFW was training very hard when YG was training during his 16 years too. Yet, YG still caught up without using the Iron Sword. And the rate of GLFW's improvement is different becasue he worked harder. So unless GJ slacked off, that point doesn't say anything.
    Last edited by superboy; 03-14-04 at 06:02 AM.
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  19. #219
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    it shows that improvement rate does vary throughout a person's lifetime. IF you want to take it to real life accounts, letz say If you lift weights....you'll see a great improvement rate at the begining when ur muscles can grow....but then, you will gradually find that the difference with which you can lift become smaller and smaller until u can lift no heavier...or else, why can't we all become olympic weight lifters? if you do other speed sports, you can find that ur times will stop dropping after a point.

    i said YG at age 36 should be 3 or 4 times as powerful as he was when he was at age 20...considering if you average it out, he had what...5 years training when he matched GLFW int he QZ temple. that means in 16 years, he should be 3 or 4 times as good as he was at that time....which doesn't make much sense

  20. #220
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    But using weight as an analogy is not really correct at this. Because I don't believe internal energy will grow more and more slow as your level gotten higher, unless if maybe there are difficult levels on your method that my hinder your success. There is no limitation like how much your muscles can grow. And I think YG had about 7 years of training or so when he fought GLFW at the temple. Although cultivations may not always be proportional, after looking at the demonstration of YG's power at 36, I do not think that it is that unbelieveable to say that his internal energy increased at least another 2 folds.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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