another YG and GJ thread

[Candide]

I believe that Jinlun Guosi* losing to YG with his boosted Sad Palms is similar to Hong Qi Gong losing to OYF's new, crazy reversed 9 Yin in the 2nd Hua San tournament. The element of surprise is the key factor here. Jinlun is definintely not inferior to YG. They should be at the same level.




* so that Athena's effort of highlighting changes in the 3rd rev won't be wasted

[duguxiaojing]

To superboy:
They are pretty much equal. Look at it this way YG=ZBT it was a draw ZBT and YG= to greats agreed? you even said it yourself YG had 2 use full sad palms to match WYS after YG jumped off cliff. 1DENG fought GWM 2 standstill with help from ZBT. Later WYS fired stone at GWM wheel Golden wheel monk commented that WYS skills wre not below his own but never said they were higher either so is it fair to assume WYS=1Deng (since 1deng had higher internal power) since GWM =1deng whose =WYS whose = YG =ZBT then ZBT=GWM they are not seperated " by a significant gap " so the surprise theory would work but u have 2 remember GWM was hit once then attacked back it wasnt like he surprised him and then hit him so many times GWM could not even raise a hand. I could just as easilt flip it and say YG's palms were goin 2 fast 2 hard and GWM could not take them. And since GWM is=ZBT or slightly lower how come ZBT was not suprised or overwhelmed by palms? unless YG was not using the final level of palms when matching ZBT. In the last scene YG seemed to be fighting almost unconsiusly he even threw out a plam without knowing. He was using some palms he used in fight with ZBT but the way they were described(how easilt he took out GWM) made them seem like it was another level

[Dirt]

Does this mean Qiu Qian Ren never caught up with the Greats since he was killed by Jin Lun Guo Shi?

[hitman]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
To superboy:
They are pretty much equal. Look at it this way YG=ZBT it was a draw ZBT and YG= to greats agreed? you even said it yourself YG had 2 use full sad palms to match WYS after YG jumped off cliff. 1DENG fought GWM 2 standstill with help from ZBT. Later WYS fired stone at GWM wheel Golden wheel monk commented that WYS skills wre not below his own but never said they were higher either so is it fair to assume WYS=1Deng (since 1deng had higher internal power) since GWM =1deng whose =WYS whose = YG =ZBT then ZBT=GWM they are not seperated " by a significant gap " so the surprise theory would work but u have 2 remember GWM was hit once then attacked back it wasnt like he surprised him and then hit him so many times GWM could not even raise a hand. I could just as easilt flip it and say YG's palms were goin 2 fast 2 hard and GWM could not take them. And since GWM is=ZBT or slightly lower how come ZBT was not suprised or overwhelmed by palms? unless YG was not using the final level of palms when matching ZBT. In the last scene YG seemed to be fighting almost unconsiusly he even threw out a plam without knowing. He was using some palms he used in fight with ZBT but the way they were described(how easilt he took out GWM) made them seem like it was another level

If that is not a suprise attack then I really don't know how to describe it.If you understand the physological of that battle it is definate a suprise attack.When YG struck GWM for the first time,GWM was shocked and enraged.He thought it was just a lucky strike and continued move towards to YG without caring for any defence and naturally when he was hit by YG successively GWM would seriously be injured.ZBT on the other hand knew YG Sad Palm was unique and dangerous thus he take it cautiously.

[duguxiaojing]

K we can say that GWM was surprised and angered but he was surprised and angered because YG sad palms were much stronger than at the begining of the match. you said it your self he thought it was a lucky strike. all im tryin to get at is this YG palms dont have to be at the highest level to match 18DP.

"Before YG reunite with XLN,he was in a sad mood due to missing XLN.After meeting XLN back such sad mood naturally disapear.That is why YG Sad Palm is not working only during his fight against GWM"

I stated this before but remember YG was winning the match before GWM attacked GX so if he wasnt using full power of sad palms as some have suggested b4 to match GWM (to the point where GWM thought he would lose) who is euqal to the greats wouldnt it be safe to assume YG could match DP without being sad? If this theory is wrong then the only thing that could explain this is 6D theory of Sadpalms power increasing the more sad one gets.
i dont believe "Because Sad Palm in full power is comparable to HL18Z. It won't be more powerful"
damn u guys are making me sound anti GJ

[Athena]

Originally posted by Candide
I believe that Jinlun Guosi* losing to YG with his boosted Sad Palms is similar to Hong Qi Gong losing to OYF's new, crazy reversed 9 Yin in the 2nd Hua San tournament. The element of surprise is the key factor here. Jinlun is definintely not inferior to YG. They should be at the same level.

* so that Athena's effort of highlighting changes in the 3rd rev won't be wasted

Did I do that? Goodness gracious me......

[Temujin]

Oh nnnnoooo, here we again... YG vs GJ round #21323211

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Temujin
Oh nnnnoooo, here we again... YG vs GJ round #21323211

Yeah, but they're getting better . . . covering some new ground.

This topic is so perennial, I'm *thinking* about making it a Sticky. I'll wait and see what Moinllieon and Suet Seung say about that, however.

[Temujin]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
Yeah, but they're getting better . . . covering some new ground.

Well... yes and no. We just added more speculations and more unforeseen elements than our previous debate. This will just make this discussion more endless and far from getting a conclusion.

I guess we just can't leave GJ vs. YG discussion alone, can we ?

[sixdays]

hey, if magic johnson and larry bird didn't have their rivalry, who would even care about the celtics and the lakers in the 80s?

the endless YG vs GJ debate gives us cause to pore over LOCH and ROCH endlessly as well, looking for the intricacies of each fighter's martial arts so that we can win over our competition. but the real blessing of it all is that we gain a much deeper appreciation for JY's works, especially in the condor trilogy.

it's a testament to the man that 40 years after he wrote these novels, there are new generations debating and appreciating these books. so to answer temujin, there's nothing wrong with the YG vs. GJ debate...it's what welcomed me to the SPCNET forums.

okay, on to the discussion. (i'm a bit lazy in referring to specific posters, so i hope that y'all will indulge me a bit by letting me just use "you" instead of superboy, kencheng, etc.)


1. just because GWM was surprised doesn't mean that YG is not a superior fighter.

so YG's first hit "shocked and enraged GWM". okay...so that means this guy is completely incapacitated after and cannot counterattack? you guys have said that the sadpalms was not a combo in rapid succession...that means that JinLun GUOSHI (nods to athena) must have had the TIME to recover, if not actually doing so. all this says to me is that JLGS has a weak mental aspect when it comes to fighting, and doesn't reflect on YG's martial arts skill.

in real life, i am a student of jeet kune do. if i shock a tae kwon do man by kicking his leg as he's kicking me, does that mean that my skill is below him? nope. and if i score more hits on him because of his shock, does that say anything about my skill? only that i've successfully attacked him MENTALLY as well as physically, which is really the goal of every real martial artist. so basically, does the fact that YG surprised JLGS make him below JLGS?

nope.

2. YG was winning the match before JLGS attacked GX.

i'm going to need athena clarify a bit on what's changed in the third edition regarding this (besides the fact that JLGS saves GX in the end). however, i do remember that YG was pushing on JLGS in the beginning of the fight. YG knocked the wheel out of a prepared JLGS's hands (no surprise tactics here, just pure internal strength) with a NORMAL SWORD, for goodness sake. at the heroes' meeting, not even a heavy iron oar could match up with da er ba's staff, much less his master's wheel. to knock out the wheel of an IMPROVED JLGS with a simple soldier's sword clearly shows YG's superiority in internal strength, if not dugu technique as well. and if y'all say that it was the dugu technique that helped YG, then you better be prepared to take back all the things you said in the the other threads about underestimating DGQB...

3. if YG can win JLGS withOUT sadpalms, then theoretically with sadpalms he should be even stronger.

we've already established that YG has the upper hand in this fight. the only reason why he lost momentum was because of JLGS's trap (i.e. attack GX and harm YG while he tries to save her). at this point, it's only the "surprise tactic" that saves JLGS from getting beaten soundly; by your logic, should i say that JLGS is below YG here because he used a surprise tactic? no, i won't do it...because even after he ambushed YG, YG did not lose. by the same token, after YG surprised JLGS he won in 3 moves --- so they were both unprepared for their enemy throughout the fight, but YG prevailed. YG's clearly stronger, so you stop saying that surprise was the only thing that saved YG.

4. duguxiaojing says:

I stated this before but remember YG was winning the match before GWM attacked GX so if he wasnt using full power of sad palms as some have suggested b4 to match GWM (to the point where GWM thought he would lose) who is euqal to the greats wouldnt it be safe to assume YG could match DP without being sad? If this theory is wrong then the only thing that could explain this is 6D theory of Sadpalms power increasing the more sad one gets.

how do you intend to answer him, folks? it was said that YG wasn't using the "full power" of sadpalms in the beginning of the fight, yet he was able to match up with JLGS, even pushing the fight without any problems. yet later, he uses the same technique to completely obliterate JLGS. if this doesn't point to two different power levels of sadpalm, then what does?

you have said that YG's sadpalms vs. JLGS in the beginning of the fight wasn't as powerful because he wasn't sad --- yet you've also said that YG's sadpalms need sadness to work. these are contradictory statements. if YG's palms need sadness to work, then he shouldn't have been able to use the palms AT ALL against JLGS. if you're saying that the sadness he experienced because of GX being tied up was the reason for his sadpalms, then why weren't those sadpalms at "full power"? after all, all that is required for sadpalms to work is sadness, right? the level of sadness doesn't matter, right?

it just shows that my theory of "the more sad, the more powerful the palm" is correct.

that's enough for now...term paper calls

[rabadi]

Originally posted by sixdays
lovepalms...that's hilarious

although it might be love swordplay, if you know what i mean...

"Gu Gu, come here. i've learnt a new kungfu..."

If XLN learnt Sword-Breaking Stance, YG would be in serious trouble

[Anonymous]

dugux: K we can say that GWM was surprised and angered but he was surprised and angered because YG sad palms were much stronger than at the begining of the match.
--- Frankly, I like to support u and 6Day about this. Feelings/Anger does power magic in "fantasy" books. Also the concept of the "Incredible Hulk" too.
.
.
6Day: all this says to me is that JLGS has a weak mental aspect when it comes to fighting, and doesn't reflect on YG's martial arts skill.
--- Yup. That's my impression of GWM in all of ROCH, and for a master, that's a disadvantage.
.
.
Rabad: If XLN learnt Sword-Breaking Stance, YG would be in serious trouble
--- Which sword are you referring? [It's a sick jk. ]

[superboy]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
To superboy:
They are pretty much equal. Look at it this way YG=ZBT it was a draw ZBT and YG= to greats agreed? you even said it yourself YG had 2 use full sad palms to match WYS after YG jumped off cliff. 1DENG fought GWM 2 standstill with help from ZBT. Later WYS fired stone at GWM wheel Golden wheel monk commented that WYS skills wre not below his own but never said they were higher either so is it fair to assume WYS=1Deng (since 1deng had higher internal power) since GWM =1deng whose =WYS whose = YG =ZBT then ZBT=GWM they are not seperated " by a significant gap " so the surprise theory would work but u have 2 remember GWM was hit once then attacked back it wasnt like he surprised him and then hit him so many times GWM could not even raise a hand. I could just as easilt flip it and say YG's palms were goin 2 fast 2 hard and GWM could not take them. And since GWM is=ZBT or slightly lower how come ZBT was not suprised or overwhelmed by palms? unless YG was not using the final level of palms when matching ZBT. In the last scene YG seemed to be fighting almost unconsiusly he even threw out a plam without knowing. He was using some palms he used in fight with ZBT but the way they were described(how easilt he took out GWM) made them seem like it was another level

Basically they only fought for a very short while, therefore we do not know for sure how close GLFW's martial arts is compare to ZBT. GLFW did got into a troubled situation and decided to cheat, while ZBT did not experience such when YG was fighting all out with him. Therefore, it is quite possible that ZBT can be not much, but significantly stronger than GLFW. And ZBT was also described to be better tahn the Greats.

[S Beaver]

for anyone in a great level, a fair even match for a short while would eventually lead to a long endless endless match. and whoever is the victor of a long endless match would usually come out not much better than the opponent, therefore, showing that the gap between the two fighters is quite thin

[duguxiaojing]

u picked good examples SB but i think u picked them purposely because u know i would have no facts to diprove u nice one (DuguXiaoJing pats Superboy on back) truth is ZBT was stronger than JLGS(thx for update Athena dont think we don appreciate it) in beginning logic is that ZBT was not much stronger but no proof to back it up. There is also no proof that ZBT was = 2 JLGS directly that is. If look at logic then there is. JLGS=1deng=YWS=YG=ZBT and from there ZBT=JLGS. But u r right there is no proof that ZBT is not significantly stronger and since there is no battle icant prove this. But judgjing from your writing ZBT"could be"and "quite possible" u do not belive that ZBT is that much greater than the rest of pack in ROCH. u just use this 2 prove me wrong. So since i cant prove it y dont we just read between the lines that suggest all greats were close to dead locked including JLGS.
for the record according to ZBT since ZBT=YG=WYS=1deng=JLGS and GJ>ZBT what does that tell u bout YG and GJ? na just messin aroung wit 6d there is indirect evidence against that i guess AFTER goin through all possible logic at the end it's still perception that tells us whos greater than who this really is never ending but i think every time we do this we dig deeper and eventually on this board we may finally find a conclusion

[superboy]

But ZBT is actually sort of stronger than people like HYS, OYF, H7G, and Yi Deng. So why is it so hard to imagine that YG fought max with ZBT to a tie? ZBT was definitely a powewrful fighter.

[duguxiaojing]

but if your trying to prove ZBT was far stronger then rest then it wouldnt make sense since YG=WYS u even said that YG was goin allout with WYS to prove that inceasing power in sad plams didnt exist and the ZBT YG battle was a tie period cant call it any other way once YG used sad palms ZBT could not defeat him nor could YG defeat ZBT. ido agree gj zbt an yg were stronger than greats but only slightly. waht im tryin to prove is sad palms can be efficent in matching 18DP without having to be "powered up". i showd proof that it is= now u show me proof that it needs to be "powred up" to match.

[Ren Wo Xing]

YG was losing until ZBT stopped using "Zuo You Hu Buo", as I recall.

[duguxiaojing]

no YG was not using sad palms at the time he was losing.when he used sad palms the LR tehcnique was used and it didnt matter it ended in draw and would have needed a inner power test to declare victor.

[superboy]

I never intended to prove that ZBT is a lot stronger than the rest of the Greats, but he is stronger. During the battle with ZBT, it was even mentioned that he was the strongest opponent that YG's palms have enver met. And since YG even thought that the only way to decide a victor is through an internal energy contest, isn't it more believable that YG is a t best as good as ZBT?