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Thread: another YG and GJ thread

  1. #81
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    "isn't it more believable that YG is at best as good as ZBT?"

    where did u get that from? with YG using sad palms ZBT was equal and even forced back at times due 2 YG aggresive inner power. when YG decided to strickly defend and not gain the upper hand in the battle ZBT COULD NOT gain the the upperhand the whole battle suggested that both were about equals. So in real battle if YG was to only defend ZBT could not win and vic versa when both attacked it was a deadlock draw how did u get "at best
    "I never intended to prove that ZBT is a lot stronger than the rest of the Greats, but he is stronger"

    Ive agreed with this since start but many times u said ZBT could possibly be significant stronger to prove YG increasing power in sadpalms false.

    SB using your theroies and interpretations didnt we prove 6D theory 2 be real read the whole thread all over again.

  2. #82
    Senior Member SolidSnake's Avatar
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    Originally posted by duguxiaojing
    "isn't it more believable that YG is at best as good as ZBT?"

    where did u get that from?
    ...from this?

    Originally posted by duguxiaojing
    no YG was not using sad palms at the time he was losing.when he used sad palms the LR tehcnique was used and it didnt matter it ended in draw and would have needed a inner power test to declare victor.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    YG was not using his strongest technique when he was losing how does that make ZBT better?

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by duguxiaojing
    "isn't it more believable that YG is at best as good as ZBT?"

    where did u get that from? with YG using sad palms ZBT was equal and even forced back at times due 2 YG aggresive inner power. when YG decided to strickly defend and not gain the upper hand in the battle ZBT COULD NOT gain the the upperhand the whole battle suggested that both were about equals. So in real battle if YG was to only defend ZBT could not win and vic versa when both attacked it was a deadlock draw how did u get "at best
    "I never intended to prove that ZBT is a lot stronger than the rest of the Greats, but he is stronger"

    Ive agreed with this since start but many times u said ZBT could possibly be significant stronger to prove YG increasing power in sadpalms false.

    SB using your theroies and interpretations didnt we prove 6D theory 2 be real read the whole thread all over again.
    It's not that YG wanted to defend, but he has to because ZBT was too good of a fighter. I never said that they were not equal neither. And there is nothing to really back up that Sad Palm is as strong as you are sad. We only need the mood. So the theory of Sad Palm's power is as sad as you are is invalid if we tried to apply the ZBT=HYS=YiDeng=GLFW, since ZBT were not the same level in the first place. But we know that ZBT can at least take on all the moves of YG even when his Sad Palms were working, while GLFW were having trouble with the movements alone.
    Last edited by superboy; 03-07-04 at 01:16 AM.
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  5. #85
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    no YG WANTED to strickly defend so he would not have to reveal all the moves of sad palms in fact he was able to hold ZBT back with partsof sad palms 9yin and QZ kung fu he never used full set of sad palm against him. If battle had continued with ZBT goin all offense and YG goin staright degense ZBT would have lost he was running low on inner power and could not force YG to reveal new sad palms let alone defeat him.

    But anyways you agree that ZBT is only slightly better thangreats right? i mean YG= or slightly better than WYS u said it yourself he was goin allout against WYS. From the battle we can see that YG=ZBT right? do u belive that super boy?

  6. #86
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Oh, I see, that was the other part, but I was talking about the part when they were actually both fighting. I agree that ZBT is not much better than the Greats, but I think that he is at YG's level. But if he were to lose to YG after a long fight, I think it will be only due to his stamina from age.
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  7. #87
    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
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    or it's because YG had more internal power. seems to me that ZBT actually had a slight upperhand in the technique field using his kong ming fist and martial arts he derived from 9 yin
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  8. #88
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    YG might or might not have more internal energy. Still don't get what more aggressive exactly means. I think ZBT's biggest advantage may be nis L/R technique.
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  9. #89
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    agressive would be like XF, non agressive would be like ZWJ, GJ and YG would fall in somewhere in between
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  10. #90
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    But that's the fighting style though. I don't get what exactly does more agressive internal energy meant.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  11. #91
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    Originally posted by duguxiaojing
    K we can say that GWM was surprised and angered but he was surprised and angered because YG sad palms were much stronger than at the begining of the match. you said it your self he thought it was a lucky strike. all im tryin to get at is this YG palms dont have to be at the highest level to match 18DP.

    "Before YG reunite with XLN,he was in a sad mood due to missing XLN.After meeting XLN back such sad mood naturally disapear.That is why YG Sad Palm is not working only during his fight against GWM"

    I stated this before but remember YG was winning the match before GWM attacked GX so if he wasnt using full power of sad palms as some have suggested b4 to match GWM (to the point where GWM thought he would lose) who is euqal to the greats wouldnt it be safe to assume YG could match DP without being sad? If this theory is wrong then the only thing that could explain this is 6D theory of Sadpalms power increasing the more sad one gets.
    i dont believe "Because Sad Palm in full power is comparable to HL18Z. It won't be more powerful"
    damn u guys are making me sound anti GJ
    From the sound of it you are trying to make YG Sad palm seems like as powerful like Janitor Monk compared to Xf,XYS and MYB but it is not.HYS has never seen GJ for about 20 years yet he claimed to YG that his palm is comparable to GJ's.Going by this logic I could easily explained that GJ's palm is still comparable to YG's sad palm at max power(if that is your theory) but I won't.I never believed such case the more sad the more powerful sad palm is so I would not say GJ palm power has increased tremendously since the last time HYS saw GJ.

    For your second statement,YG was having the advantage over GWM b4 he used his sad palm but does that mean that YG would definately wins?No.GWM was also having an advantage over ZBT when fighting him but nobody said GWM would end up winning over ZBT.GWM like u said had some mental/paranoid problem when fighting.He was always worried whether he would lose when things get tougher than he expected plus cared too much about 'face' especially against younger generation.The palms YG used against GWM is not sad palm but other palms that he didn't named so it is not 'full power' sad palm.Every Great had a second and third skills to use when they are not using their best skill to fight and this second and third skill are not much inferior to their best skill(think of Dog Beating Stick,Jade Fluet Sword etc).

  12. #92
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    Originally posted by sixdays
    hey, if magic johnson and larry bird didn't have their rivalry, who would even care about the celtics and the lakers in the 80s?

    the endless YG vs GJ debate gives us cause to pore over LOCH and ROCH endlessly as well, looking for the intricacies of each fighter's martial arts so that we can win over our competition. but the real blessing of it all is that we gain a much deeper appreciation for JY's works, especially in the condor trilogy.

    it's a testament to the man that 40 years after he wrote these novels, there are new generations debating and appreciating these books. so to answer temujin, there's nothing wrong with the YG vs. GJ debate...it's what welcomed me to the SPCNET forums.

    okay, on to the discussion. (i'm a bit lazy in referring to specific posters, so i hope that y'all will indulge me a bit by letting me just use "you" instead of superboy, kencheng, etc.)


    1. just because GWM was surprised doesn't mean that YG is not a superior fighter.

    so YG's first hit "shocked and enraged GWM". okay...so that means this guy is completely incapacitated after and cannot counterattack? you guys have said that the sadpalms was not a combo in rapid succession...that means that JinLun GUOSHI (nods to athena) must have had the TIME to recover, if not actually doing so. all this says to me is that JLGS has a weak mental aspect when it comes to fighting, and doesn't reflect on YG's martial arts skill.

    in real life, i am a student of jeet kune do. if i shock a tae kwon do man by kicking his leg as he's kicking me, does that mean that my skill is below him? nope. and if i score more hits on him because of his shock, does that say anything about my skill? only that i've successfully attacked him MENTALLY as well as physically, which is really the goal of every real martial artist. so basically, does the fact that YG surprised JLGS make him below JLGS?

    nope.

    2. YG was winning the match before JLGS attacked GX.

    i'm going to need athena clarify a bit on what's changed in the third edition regarding this (besides the fact that JLGS saves GX in the end). however, i do remember that YG was pushing on JLGS in the beginning of the fight. YG knocked the wheel out of a prepared JLGS's hands (no surprise tactics here, just pure internal strength) with a NORMAL SWORD, for goodness sake. at the heroes' meeting, not even a heavy iron oar could match up with da er ba's staff, much less his master's wheel. to knock out the wheel of an IMPROVED JLGS with a simple soldier's sword clearly shows YG's superiority in internal strength, if not dugu technique as well. and if y'all say that it was the dugu technique that helped YG, then you better be prepared to take back all the things you said in the the other threads about underestimating DGQB...

    3. if YG can win JLGS withOUT sadpalms, then theoretically with sadpalms he should be even stronger.

    we've already established that YG has the upper hand in this fight. the only reason why he lost momentum was because of JLGS's trap (i.e. attack GX and harm YG while he tries to save her). at this point, it's only the "surprise tactic" that saves JLGS from getting beaten soundly; by your logic, should i say that JLGS is below YG here because he used a surprise tactic? no, i won't do it...because even after he ambushed YG, YG did not lose. by the same token, after YG surprised JLGS he won in 3 moves --- so they were both unprepared for their enemy throughout the fight, but YG prevailed. YG's clearly stronger, so you stop saying that surprise was the only thing that saved YG.

    4. duguxiaojing says:



    how do you intend to answer him, folks? it was said that YG wasn't using the "full power" of sadpalms in the beginning of the fight, yet he was able to match up with JLGS, even pushing the fight without any problems. yet later, he uses the same technique to completely obliterate JLGS. if this doesn't point to two different power levels of sadpalm, then what does?

    you have said that YG's sadpalms vs. JLGS in the beginning of the fight wasn't as powerful because he wasn't sad --- yet you've also said that YG's sadpalms need sadness to work. these are contradictory statements. if YG's palms need sadness to work, then he shouldn't have been able to use the palms AT ALL against JLGS. if you're saying that the sadness he experienced because of GX being tied up was the reason for his sadpalms, then why weren't those sadpalms at "full power"? after all, all that is required for sadpalms to work is sadness, right? the level of sadness doesn't matter, right?

    it just shows that my theory of "the more sad, the more powerful the palm" is correct.

    that's enough for now...term paper calls
    1.I never thought that YG was below GWM but not as good as what you think.He was only on equal level with the best.So I will not dispute much on why he could suprise GWM since I believed they are equal.

    2.Regarding DGKB's ability is very subjective since there isn't much concrete facts to be used.However I am not here to debate about that.Again it is answerable as the first one there that they are about equal so it was no suprise one sword broke while the wheel flown off.

    3.For this I remembered of the part HYS fighting GJ at 2nd Wah Shan tournament.During the first one hundred strokes,HYS can't gained any advantage over GJ thus he had to resort to some suprise/dirty tricks to gain the advantage.Does this mean that HYS was inferior to GJ?Definately not.But it can hasten a fight to finish faster that is all.I believed YG can beat GWM but not as quick or good as what you think like that is by using 4 palms of Sad Palm GWM would definately lose.In actual fact they should have taken more than a day to dispute who is better.The suprise factor only shorten the length and result of the fight.The suprise factor YG suffered was not as suprise as GWM had.YG was having some advantage over GWM before GWM went for the suprise factor while GWM was having the fight wrapped in his finger before YG gone for the suprise factor.

    4.Like I said that palms YG used earlier is not sad palm but rather some unnamed palm skills YG developed as his 2nd rate skill.So in other words YG was not even using Sad Palm until he was getting beaten up by GWM then he started using it but it was not effective because he was not in sad mood(LOVE not friendship).Until at the end he thought he would never see XLN again then he was in sad mood thus sad palm was finally working again.

  13. #93
    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
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    For this I remembered of the part HYS fighting GJ at 2nd Wah Shan tournament.During the first one hundred strokes,HYS can't gained any advantage over GJ thus he had to resort to some suprise/dirty tricks to gain the advantage.Does this mean that HYS was inferior to GJ?Definately not.But it can hasten a fight to finish faster that is all.I believed YG can beat GWM but not as quick or good as what you think like that is by using 4 palms of Sad Palm GWM would definately lose.In actual fact they should have taken more than a day to dispute who is better.The suprise factor only shorten the length and result of the fight.The suprise factor YG suffered was not as suprise as GWM had.YG was having some advantage over GWM before GWM went for the suprise factor while GWM was having the fight wrapped in his finger before YG gone for the suprise factor.
    HYS was using perhaps 75% (that's a C!) of his power for about the first 200 stances. he definitley did not resort to tricks. even if HYS was fighting a Great, he would not use "tricks" because of his pride, he would definitely not use tricks on a younger generation.
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  14. #94
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    When Wong Yerk See exerted only 70% of his ability against Gwok Jing at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, Wong Yerk See lost the upper hand and realized he would lose the fight unless he got serious and used 100% of his ability against Gwok Jing. Even then, it took Wong Yerk See a while to regain the upper hand and by the time he did, he was unable to defeat Gwok Jing in fewer than 300 moves.

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    he definitley did not resort to tricks. even if HYS was fighting a Great, he would not use "tricks" because of his pride, he would definitely not use tricks on a younger generation.
    He did, and he felt ashamed. It was not a dirty trick, just fighting trick, but still, a Great like him shouldn't have to use such tricks when fighting against a youngster like GJ.

  16. #96
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Candide
    He did, and he felt ashamed. It was not a dirty trick, just fighting trick, but still, a Great like him shouldn't have to use such tricks when fighting against a youngster like GJ.
    Hung 7 Gung had to resort to a trick against Gwok Jing too, didn't he? He left himself wide open for a moment to confuse Gwok Jing, and struck while Gwok Jing was off-balance.

  17. #97
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    That was Hong Qi Gong. GJ was confused as he didn't want to hurt his sifu.

    It was said (not very clearly) that after over 100 moves, HYS used some weird trick to confuse GJ, so that GJ had to retreat to avoid a kick to his left leg. Afterwards, HYS tried to gain the upperhand but 100 moves later (203rd, 204th moves as HR counted) he still couldn't break GJ's defence and the fight was heading for a draw. It was then that he tried his best technique which he had been practicing for years to prepare for the 2nd Hua San tournament (to fight other Greats). Still, it took him almost 100 more moves to completely control GJ, and by then, the fight had already gone over 300 moves.

  18. #98
    Junior Member Condor83's Avatar
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    I'm glad to see a GJ vs. YG debate since this is one of the reasons for me signing up for this forum. I think GJ wins. YG's fight with ZBT is the probably the best indicator. GJ knows basically everything that ZBT knows with the exception of some of WCY's kung-fu. GJ more than compensates for it with his perfected HL18P and likely a full version of Peach Blossom Island kung-fu. I think the L/R Hand technique will be the decider since it will allow GJ to simultaneously neutralize an attack and launch his own offensive. When YG went up against WYS and used Sad Palms, East Heretic dispersed some of the power of the palm using his Divine Finger Flick. He then used the flick three times in quick succession if memory serves me correctly, but could not get the advantage. On the other hand, GJ would be able to use Dan Ji Sun Tung and HL18P at the same time through L/R Hand. He would effectively be neutralizing and striking back in one sequence, whereas WYS could only use DJST on its own and then launch it again in quick succession with the hope of catching YG.

    As for YG vs. ZBT, Lo Wan Tung only used one technique from the book of 9Y and that was the Demon Subduing Fist. I don't know how powerful this technique was, but I'm sceptical as to whether it can compare to GJ's HL18P, a technique which has been re-engineered using 9Y power. It would be interesting to see how the fight would end if ZBT executed the entire repertoire of moves in 9Y Vol. Two. Remember that ZBT was only using Vacant Fist with Demon Subduing Fist. What if he replaced Vacant Fist with a similar 9Y technique? Can YG handle two simultaneous attacks with 9Y kung-fu? Additionally, ZBT never actively practiced the kung-fu in the 9Y manuals so he probably never perfected the techniques. Yet, despite all of this, the fight ended in a draw. Therefore, if it was GJ vs. YG, I think North Hero GJ wins. ZBT does not have anything as overbearing and powerful as GJ's HL18P so even though his L/R Hand Technique gave YG trouble, it lacked the ability to deliver a decisive blow. Just my opinion..

  19. #99
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Originally posted by duguxiaojing
    damn u guys are making me sound anti GJ
    You definitely are not anti GJ since you use GJ's picture as your new avatar

  20. #100
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    C83: GJ knows basically everything that ZBT knows with the exception of some of WCY's kung-fu. GJ more than compensates for it with his perfected HL18P and likely a full version of Peach Blossom Island kung-fu.
    --- But does GJ reach the level of greats using VacantFist (which ZBT uses)? [Meaning, VacantFist may not suit GJ's personality]
    .
    .
    C83: I think the L/R Hand technique will be the decider since it will allow GJ to simultaneously neutralize an attack and launch his own offensive. When YG went up against WYS and used Sad Palms,
    .
    C83: East Heretic dispersed some of the power of the palm using his Divine Finger Flick. He then used the flick three times in quick succession if memory serves me correctly, but could not get the advantage [on YG].
    --- Your first paragraph is neutralized by the 2nd paragraph. This "quick" succession of flickingStones is kinda like L/R technique with its succession of techniques. Besides, HL18Z requires "both" hands for full power [so L/R is limited]?
    .
    .
    C83: On the other hand, GJ would be able to use Dan Ji Sun Tung and HL18P at the same time through L/R Hand.
    --- Void. HYS's flickingStone requires tremendous power, otherwise how did he neutralize YG's palms? Meaning, GJ probably cannot use his other hand to initiate a powerful technique. Recall YG's technique (like DGQB) is the "force" the opponent into a defensive position or else meet his power man-to-man (like HL18Z).
    .
    .
    C83: It would be interesting to see how the fight would end if ZBT executed the entire repertoire of moves in 9Y Vol.
    --- There may be a reason why ZBT didnt execute the entire 9Yin. My guess is cuz some techniques doesnt suit his personality.
    .
    .
    C83: Two. Remember that ZBT was only using Vacant Fist with Demon Subduing Fist. What if he replaced Vacant Fist with a similar 9Y technique? Can YG handle two simultaneous attacks with 9Y kung-fu?
    --- Recall YG's sadPalms "forced" ZBT to use "both" hands to meet YG's attacks. I think ZBT used all his power to withstand YG's attacks, but not sure, since I cannot find Noodles translation.
    .
    .
    C83: Additionally, ZBT never actively practiced the kung-fu in the 9Y manuals so he probably never perfected the techniques. Yet, despite all of this, the fight ended in a draw.
    --- That's "hasty generalization." The fact ZBT used "demon-subduing fist" probably means he has sufficient skill to use it and then he used in on a "great-level" fighter, which is illogical if there isnt another hidden reason: maybe surprise-factor (new technique creates uncertainty). Besides, they were in a draw prior this and this draw doesnt reveal much. However, the final analysis from YG (from ALL of this) is that despite the techniques both used, they are equal and must compete in innerPower.
    .
    .
    Conclusion (so far):
    1. Only two factors prevent YG=GJ. 1) One-handed 2)SadPalms - require sadness?
    .
    Frankly, Noodles explaination about the development of SadPalms doesnt even mention SadPalms require sadness. Is there an explicit statement that say this? [Just the facts, no interpretations please. ]

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