another YG and GJ thread

[Condor83]

But does GJ reach the level of greats using VacantFist (which ZBT uses)? [Meaning, VacantFist may not suit GJ's personality]

Vacant Fist has been used effectively in battle countless times by GJ with great effect, admittedly only when used in conjunction with HL18P. Though I doubt GJ's version of VF reaches the level of ZBT, since he invented it, it's still quite effective. GJ produced a workable version of DJST after seeing WYS use it from the secret room where WY was healing him so his Vacant Fist should be quite well developed. As for whether it suits his personality, I doubt ZBT would even teach it to him if it didn't. Besides, given the numerous times we see GJ using it, I think it's a stretch to suggest that it doesn't suit him.

Your first paragraph is neutralized by the 2nd paragraph. This "quick" succession of flickingStones is kinda like L/R technique with its succession of techniques. Besides, HL18Z requires "both" hands for full power [so L/R is limited]?

I disagree that launching an attack in quick succession is similar to using two techniques simultaneously, which is what L/R Hand does. With the three successive Divine Finger Flicks from WYS, there's still an least a pause in between, whereas Vacant Fist and HL18P are used at the same time. Also, many of the palms in HL18P only require one hand. Isn't Subduing the Dragon with Regret (Hong Lung Yau Fui) just moving your arm in a circle and striking out? Is there a quote in the novel where it says both hands are required for full power?

[QUOTE]Void. HYS's flickingStone requires tremendous power, otherwise how did he neutralize YG's palms? QUOTE]

I think WYS's flicking stones is well-engineered move and not necessarily reliant on his internal power only. After all, his inner power is not the highest, though it is far from weak. Perhaps the trajectory of the snap and the placement of the stone are key elements that make the technique more powerful. I think any Greats level fighter can flick a stone at a high velocity, but WYS's version is just much better designed. Even if a Great-level fighter practiced flicking rocks according to their own formula, I doubt they could create a version as powerful.

Meaning, GJ probably cannot use his other hand to initiate a powerful technique.

Finally, I disagree on this. I'm quite sure GJ has used two different palms from HL18P at the same time via L/R Hand during his battle with the throngs of next generation Chuen Jun members. It doesn't just have to be HL18P and Vacant Fist. If GJ cannot use his other hand to launch a powerful attack, then L/R Hand would only be useful combining a soft and hard technique. BTW, what is your definition of a powerful attack? Are you using it interchangeably with a hard technique? Vacant Fist may not be hard and overbearing, but if combined with internal energy, it can still be effective.

Aside from the few disagreements, you've made some good points.. I hadn't considered whether the 9Y kung-fu really suits ZBT..

[duguxiaojing]

"From the sound of it you are trying to make YG Sad palm seems like as powerful like Janitor Monk compared to Xf,XYS and MYB but it is not"
How did i do that have u been reading my post? the whole time im like all are equal seperated slightly in skill at least AMILLLION TIMES cause sb did not agree with this but now he does so i have nothing to argue about with him. now im gonna go read over YG three battles an TRY to prove that yg can match DP without being sad. u have read the novel right? dont u think the way YG used sad palms seemed diffrent from when he fought WYS and ZBT at the end was fighting seemed like he was fighting subconsiously .about the thing u said about GWM only losing because of one wild angry attack. u make GWM seem like he just threw himself at YG and left himself wide open. Why do u think so little of him OYF was insane and angry when he fought H7G and attacked wildly did he end up losing in for stances? when GWM attacked YG yg did not find an opening and hit him he countered by dodging him and hit him with 3 stances how in the world would a martial artist no matter how angry attack have his attack dodged and leave himself WIDE OPEN unless YG was moving with incredible speed and power. GWM was surprised cause he thought all the fight was out of YG and he was done yet YG showed a huge surge of power. JY put the part about him not being able to use full power for a reason he could have just not mentioned anything about sad palms and say yg surprised GWM by hitting an opening. And for the record YG does not seem like sweeper monk at the end at all mayb in your opinion but not in mine i dont know where in the world thatcame from but i did not write that YG touched GWM and his head exploded u got 2 give YG more credit surprise was a part of it but there was also an dramatic increase in YG power.

[Anonymous]

c83: I disagree that launching an attack in quick succession is similar to using two techniques simultaneously, which is what L/R Hand does. With the three successive Divine Finger Flicks from WYS, there's still an least a pause in between, whereas Vacant Fist and HL18P are used at the same time.
--- My thinking is this: each fighter has a limited output Power. For L/R techniques, this output Power seems to split into the two hands at that instance in time. Meaning, the two hands combined in doing one technique gets full power but two hands doing separate things gets half power each. If these separate things then hit the same spot, then the power is then re-combined into fullPower. I heard that L/R technique can double innerPower accumulation but dont think it doubles total output Power.
--- successive flickingStones is similar to L/R technique unless L/R technique hit the same spot on opponent. The interval between the L-hand hitting and then the R-hand hitting. If both hand hits, this may renders L/R ineffective cuz L/R main focus is to confuse and hit opponents in different areas (ie. XLN's JadeMaiden and QZ combo). Still, YG can use his stomach and other parts of body, kinda like a second arm to counter L/R technique.
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c83: Also, many of the palms in HL18P only require one hand. Isn't Subduing the Dragon with Regret (Hong Lung Yau Fui) just moving your arm in a circle and striking out? Is there a quote in the novel where it says both hands are required for full power?
--- How powerful is the one-handed attacks? Each HL18Z has different power, and using two arms (for HL18Z) is better than one-handed attacks (ie. XiaoFeng in the house/Mansion ). Actually, I dont know the HL18Z attacks.
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c83: Finally, I disagree on this. I'm quite sure GJ has used two different palms from HL18P at the same time via L/R Hand during his battle with the throngs of next generation Chuen Jun members.
--- QZ members are not "great" level fighters. L/R technique (w/ split power) can overcome these fighters. For "great"-level fighters, clever/effective usage of appropriate technique and Innerpower leaves fewer "margin for error." The question is: can L/R technique can a fullPower (100% power) attack with L/R technique (which splits 100%power up)?
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c83: It doesn't just have to be HL18P and Vacant Fist. If GJ cannot use his other hand to launch a powerful attack, then L/R Hand would only be useful combining a soft and hard technique. BTW, what is your definition of a powerful attack?
--- powerful attack is near 100% outPower, the kind "greats"/(near greats) can achieve and others cannot. That's the philosophy behind HL18Z and IronSword. Recall how YG and GWM competed in QZ palace and also during their final battle scene. If GWM can use L/R, can he "afford" to use L/R technique when YG decides to do an "all out" attack?
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Please correct me if wrong, I sometimes fall into "logical fallacies." Becuz this is a forum, my caution is even less ...

[Candide]

Even in LOCH, when he was a rather inexperienced 19 yo, he could use 2 different Dragon Palms to break OYK's arm. When he fought HQG at the end of LOCH, he was using Kong Ming Fists with one hand and Dragon Palms with the other. It would be easy peasy for him to do that in ROCH.

[hitman]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
"From the sound of it you are trying to make YG Sad palm seems like as powerful like Janitor Monk compared to Xf,XYS and MYB but it is not"
How did i do that have u been reading my post? the whole time im like all are equal seperated slightly in skill at least AMILLLION TIMES cause sb did not agree with this but now he does so i have nothing to argue about with him. now im gonna go read over YG three battles an TRY to prove that yg can match DP without being sad. u have read the novel right? dont u think the way YG used sad palms seemed diffrent from when he fought WYS and ZBT at the end was fighting seemed like he was fighting subconsiously .about the thing u said about GWM only losing because of one wild angry attack. u make GWM seem like he just threw himself at YG and left himself wide open. Why do u think so little of him OYF was insane and angry when he fought H7G and attacked wildly did he end up losing in for stances? when GWM attacked YG yg did not find an opening and hit him he countered by dodging him and hit him with 3 stances how in the world would a martial artist no matter how angry attack have his attack dodged and leave himself WIDE OPEN unless YG was moving with incredible speed and power. GWM was surprised cause he thought all the fight was out of YG and he was done yet YG showed a huge surge of power. JY put the part about him not being able to use full power for a reason he could have just not mentioned anything about sad palms and say yg surprised GWM by hitting an opening. And for the record YG does not seem like sweeper monk at the end at all mayb in your opinion but not in mine i dont know where in the world thatcame from but i did not write that YG touched GWM and his head exploded u got 2 give YG more credit surprise was a part of it but there was also an dramatic increase in YG power.

I'm sorry if that statement sounds harsh but it was some sort of relative comparison if the theory of the sadder you are the more powerful your palm would be.While in general you don't seems to be saying it but you are somehow hinting about it:

"all im tryin to get at is this YG palms dont have to be at the highest level to match 18DP."

What does your statement means then?YG does not need to use his full power to defeat GWM and the rest of the Greats
if you believe Greats=GWM.If that is true,why YG thought the only way to settle a winner between ZBT and him is true battling using internal energy?If that is true,why the heck he regretted not bringing the heavy sword when getting beaten up by GWM?Because his Sad Palm is not working effectively?It is a yes to me but why?For me is his depression was lost ever since meeting XLN again.So does Sad Palm requires someone to be sad to work?Logic is pointitng yes.Since GWM=Greats how did YG managed to tie with the Greats if he was not using his 100% force of Sad Palm?I never though little of GWM's martial arts level but rather his mentality.GWM had too much of a pride to be defeated by someone 2 generation younger than him.Just when
he thought he could exact his revenge on YG,YG strikes back with a palm.GWM was shocked and enraged no doubt thus trying to
strike back at YG but due to his shock and eagerness to get his revenge he let his defence down and allows YG an opening to
strike him 3 times consecutively.YG was able to counterattack is because he was in the same level with GWM.A Great can take
advantage of another if there is slight opening.AYF even though he was crazy but his mind was clear when fighting if not how
could you explain that he managed to counter the dog-beating stick.

I aplogize again if you are offended by my statement earlier but I was just pointing out it seems to be like exaggreation on YG to say he was not even using his best abilities against others until the last moment which reminds me of Janitor Monk poweress.So it was only a relative comparison.

[sixdays]

whew...so much has happened since i last visited the thread.

*cracks knuckles*

better get back to work defending YG...someone has to do it.

to superboy:

first, you say that JLGS is equal to YG.

JLGS = YG

and then you guys say that ZBT is above the other Greats and above JLGS as well, and that's why YG disposed of JLGS so quickly --- because JLGS was not up to ZBT's level.

ZBT > other Greats

Greats ~= JLGS

next, you say that YG and ZBT are the same because they fought to a draw.

ZBT = YG

THEN you say that YG was using his full sadpalms on HYS, therefore trying to use his full power against HYS and only tying.

HYS (a Great) = YG

do you even notice your discrepancies here? with every argument that you use to try and disprove my theory that sadpalms gets more powerful the more sad you are, you change YG's level relative to other heroes in the novel. i cannot take you seriously until you at least choose a constant. i have chosen mine here:

ZBT > the other Greats

JLGS ~= the Greats

now, let's see what i do with them.

----

what YG does with sadpalms

YG uses sadpalms and ties with his friend HYS.

YG = HYS

YG uses sadpalms and ties with ZBT.

YG = ZBT

YG uses sadpalms and defeats JLGS.

YG > JLGS

----

like you said, superboy, if YG was only as powerful as ZBT after using his sadpalms, he should be able to defeat JLGS because JLGS is below ZBT.

but wait a minute...

isn't HYS not as powerful as ZBT? how come if YG was using FULL POWER sadpalm with ZBT and resulted in a tie, he used FULL POWER sadpalm with HYS and resulted in a tie also? what's the difference here?

the only difference could be that the sadpalms were of different strength. if they were of different strengths, then that disproves the theory:

"all you need is to feel sad for the sadpalms to work. it only has one power setting that comes out when you're sad...it doesn't depend on how sad you are".

also, if the Greats and JLGS are equals, why did YG tie with HYS (healthy) while defeating JLGS (injured)?

it must be because the sadpalms he used in each situation were of different strengths.

he was sad for losing XLN for 16 years (but knew they would be reunited 16 years later) when he fought HYS, so they fought to a tie. when YG was close to death while fighting JLGS, he would have parted with XLN FOREVER --- he wouldn't even have the hope of "16 yeras later". naturally, this would make him more sad than before...

and what happened in the fight with JLGS? YG'S SADPALMS GOT STRONGER AND DEFEATED JLGS.

looks like it's obvious, folks. sadpalms depends on the sadness of the user.

[sixdays]

this is for hitman (the quotes are his questions):

"if you believe Greats=GWM.If that is true,why YG thought the only way to settle a winner between ZBT and him is true battling using internal energy?"

if you look at the sparring between ZBT and YG, you will see that this is a sort of "exhibition" match...where they are trying to get the best of each other with new techniques, not by simply all-out brawling. i think it's safe to say that in terms of techniques, no one knows more than ZBT --- perhaps closely followed by HYS and then YG himself. there's no shame in YG thinking that he must settle the fight using internal energy, because that just means that he cannot think of a technique at the moment to counter ZBT. this is the same thing that happened between H7G and OYF, and that's why the 2 greats went at it using internal energy.

HOWEVER...throughout the sparring, ZBT was already pressured by what he called "YG's aggressive internal energy". YG knows that if he were to untap all of his internal energy, it would be similar to what he does in the ocean...blasting forth to beat back the forces threatening to consume him. but that is dangerous to ZBT, because YG will then have no control and even perhaps kill ZBT, or get killed by ZBT...so he decided not to compare internal energy.

i think YG is superior to ZBT in terms of internal energy, and simply does not want to take the fight to another level.

"If that is true,why the heck he regretted not bringing the heavy sword when getting beaten up by GWM?"

that was YG scolding himself for being "arrogant", and not focusing his energy when using the normal sword. he was annoyed because he thought he was so much above GWM that he wouldn't have to try his hardest to break the wheel, but he calculated wrong and simply knocked the wheel out of GWM's hands instead of cutting through and killing him right there. when YG wishes that he brought the ironsword, he's just expressing his annoyance --- because if he had used his ironsword instead of a normal one, it would have crushed through the wheel and killed GWM instantly.

in conclusion, YG is only sayin this because he's annoyed that he lost this opportunity to defeat GWM in one blow.

"Because his Sad Palm is not working effectively? It is a yes to me but why?"

let me get this straight: he makes a comment after breaking a sword on GWM's wheel, and that means that his sadpalms suck? that's an interesting theory, that his sword skills reflect on his palm skills...

if that is true then i might as well end the GJ vs YG debate right here, because if GJ's sword skill reflects on his palm skill then he's done for. how could he ever match YG's swordsmanship?


"For me is his depression was lost ever since meeting XLN again.So does Sad Palm requires someone to be sad to work? Logic is pointing yes."

um...that's an interesting question. "does sadpalms need sadness to work", huh? does dogbeating stick need the opponent to be a dog? can i really subdue a dragon with HL18Z? do you need to be a star in order to use the big dipper formation?

many martial arts are named out of their INSPIRATION...their titles do not simply tell you all the theories that they are based on. otherwise, who would title their kungfu at all? all i'd have to do is hear the name, and then i could learn/counter it. the more i think about sadpalms, the more i disagree with my old theory that "the more sad you are, the more powerful the palm is". i don't think it's that simple. check out my new theory:

did JY actually ever say that you needed to be sad in order to use sadpalms? actually, i think he only ever stated that the INSPIRATION for sadpalms was YG's heartbreak over XLN...and he also said that the full power of sadpalms would be revealed when YG was sad. but he never said the martial art (because it's really more than a palm, it's a whole system involving different movements) needed sadness to activate it.

let me say that again: JY never specifically states that sadness is required to use sadpalms.

YG must have been in the worst of his heartbreak the night he invented sadpalms. perhaps he couldn't hold in the pain anymore, and started to try and release it in the form of martial arts. being the "tien tsai" (tin choi), or prodigy that he is, he must have seen the power of his movements and so dubbed this new martial art "sadpalms". however, there is no way that YG could walk around in that emotional state ALL THE TIME...and that's not an emotional state that you can conjure at will, like internal energy. i really don't agree with kencheng's statement that "YG has more than enough sadness from losing XLN to draw from at any time". have you guys ever broken up with a girl that you loved very much? you can't bring up that kind of pain any time you want to...you wouldn't be able to live anymore, you'd be like WIND in stormriders when he just got drunk all the time and wouldn't do anything. it would be too raw to draw into that suffering every time he wanted to throw a move, and it would hurt too much. remember, we are talking about YG, aka the chinese "romeo"...his heartbreak must be worse than anyone can fathom.

this leads me to my true theory:

the sadpalms that YG used in the later parts of ROCH, other than the last 3 moves against GWM, was simply a system and did not require sadness to work.

let me use LCY's jade maiden swordplay as an example. even though this system was completely linked to her feelings for WCY, you did not have to have these feelings in order to learn/practice this martial art. in fact, it will still be good even if the practitioners don't love each other. HOWEVER, the true power of it comes out when one swordsman sacrifices themself for the other, and they both fight to protect the other --- a feat only achieved to its fullest if you are in love.

in the same way, you can practice sadpalms without being sad, and it will still be incredibly powerful because of its eccentrics and genius of technique. HOWEVER, the movements must be designed to be optimized when YG is completely heartbroken, just as jade maiden is best when you are fully in love.

that, my friends, is why YG's palms were so powerful at the very last fight between him and JLGS. this was the only time in his life since inventing sadpalms that he was able to match the depth of sorrow that he was in the night he created sadpalms...

thereby showing the true essence of sadpalm and crushing JLGS.

this also explains why JY mentioned the sadpalms not being at "fullpower" ONLY in the fight against GWM. in reality, what was YG doing when he was first using sadplams against GWM, that was different from how he used it against ZBT and HYS? nothing that we can see. that must mean that the non-"fullpower" sadpalm that YG first used against GWM was the same palm he used against ZBT and HYS. JY only makes the point that sadpalms are not at "fullpower", because he wants to foreshadow the fact that something can make YG's sadpalms even stronger than we have seen previously. and that something is the true sorrow of his heart.

::SIDENOTE::

this theory also explains why YG couldn't think of a technique to counter ZBT when they were sparring together --- the simple fact is, YG couldn't have known that he would only bring out the essence of sadpalm by being as sad as the day he created the moves. YG began to use the higher techniques of sadpalm against ZBT, and they were enough to bring them back to a tie --- this must have been satisfying enough for YG, because to tie ZBT using a kungfu one thought up themselves is actually VERY impressive. how could he have known that his palms were even MORE powerful? H7G was already delighted beyond his wildest dreams when OYF thought up a counter to the last, and best move of dogbeating stick over the course of one day --- which is to say, it's already an incredible thing to tie with a Great. it's no surprise YG would stop after he tied with ZBT, because even though YG is cocky he is always respectful to the ones that are good to him.

::SIDENOTE 2 - Why HYS Can Tie With YG's Sadpalm Technique Like ZBT Even Though HYS is Technically Below ZBT::

when dealing with discussions regarding HYS, we need to keep 2 things in mind: 1) that HYS is actually an incredible fighter, matched by only the world's best at the time, and more importantly 2) HYS has perhaps the best martial arts understanding of ALL of the condor trilogy, except maybe Z3F.

if YG is simply using his technique of sadpalms against HYS, then it doesn't surprise me that HYS can find a way to counter it. remember, though HYS was able to lessen the impact of sadpalms using his divine flicking flickers, there was no way for HYS to counterattack. it is at this point that HYS says that sadpalms are COMPARABLE to HL18Z. why does he say that?

it must be because HYS realizes that he could also use divine flicking fingers to dissipate the energy in HL18Z as well. it's not as if YG were going all out, and HYS was just flickin his palms and dodging without trouble; HYS had to use his best martial art to counter one palm from YG. since we could safely say that HYS would also use divine flicking fingers to counter GJ's HL18Z, this example shows that in terms of technique, sadpalms is not below HL18Z.

---

okay, i'm finally done. that analysis of sadpalm is a work of art, folks...my finest analysis to date.

(pretty arrogant, aren't i )

[duguxiaojing]

I dont wan2 go gainst anything u say 6D u an annnomous have been my only buds through this but YG had much more respect for GWM than that. I think YG felt he needed Iron sword to defeat GWM it was more than annoyance. When YG ascended up the wooden Ladder? the plank thingGWM threw a palm at him. YG released a palm both matched palms and both staggered back due to the power realeased think MAJOR whiplash (either he took YG very seriously since he did not just indure the pain the way he did with GJ but i think he was forced back due to shock). Then if i remember correctly the woodedn plank/ ladder (i dont know what its called im pretty sure the book calls it wooden ladder i think its refering to the thing GX is tied 2 if u seen adaptions u get idea) shook violently almost breaking. After both were scared/intimidated of each other. Mentally they are thinking that both have not seen each other in one 16 years and that the other inner power/skill u know(GONG LIK) had progressed at an unbelievable rate. YG realised he could not actually more like should not match palm to palm on top of ladder no more(it may break)I will TRY and translate entire excerpt for u 6D u are better at picking stuff but my translating skills are absolute Sh!T not even amillion miles away from the likes of Noods,athena,moin ect... i know one exist sum where on this site or wuxia world but thats just an overview. The thing u have to understand is GWM at this time was shown as EXTREMELY powerful and dangerous when YG swung his sword at GWm back GWM could distinguish the soundof YG sword from the violent winds that were blowing and blocked with wheel wit out even turning his back. in another scene right after GX leaped off cliff WY saw this and attempted to attack GWM with a pole/rod GWM just smashed it to bits with elephant and dragon skilkl. when he weas goin allout with 1deng they were so impressed with each others skills that the would not come close to one another.
Anyways back on the YG bandwagon i do not see why its so hard to belive YG can match GJ dragon palms without being sad. Im not saying hisnot goin allout JY even states martial artists at such a high level must go allout when dueling other extremely powerful martial artist. I belive when he gets sad and uses Sadpalms hegoes sumthing like what Gohan goes throught when his angry and imnot suggesting that he will become iinvincible far from it i do believe he gets a huge surge of power thought.i have
already stated that it was a mixture of sad palms and GWM anger that led to his downfall how many top ranked fighters have attacked out of anger and got defeated in 4 stances? GWm is best out of the best. OYF was not completly clear minded when he was fighting either. during the days in LOCH(stated in book) he would not test inner power with H7G due to the fact that both could die in ROCH he did because he was not completley sane his atacks were wild and violent. im not saying that YG would defeat GJ either i never would im more of a gj fan than YG ask 6D weve argued b4 i became a YG fan. i just find it annoying when people state "sad plams AT BEST can match up with DP" i see that as disrespect. so does that mean when YG is not sad he would not be able to match up? just look at the fight between ZBT and YG even in the beggining while he was losing he was in a disadvantage but he was not getting murdered and this was without using sad palms he proboaly would of lost after a couple of hundred stances but he could MATCH zbt the way a young Guo jing could match the greats. how powerful do u think 18DP are? GWM easily matched Gj in beggining of ROCH so did OYF(im not talking about the body shot palm to palm) i do not see why YG could not take a palm ofGJ if he went all out and boosted it with his inner power.

[duguxiaojing]

U dont need 2 apologize hitman these debates get heated at times i think i may have offended u on my post i did not mean to do that if i did iwas TRYING not 2 say anything bout u personally and use only logic and examples from book 2 counter if u were offended then srry there may have been more venom in my post then intended

[Dirt]

I think all of the original 5 Greats have comparable understandings of martial arts. Ou Yang Feng was able to break the last stance of Dog Beating Stick for instance.

[Condor83]

i think YG is superior to ZBT in terms of internal energy, and simply does not want to take the fight to another level.

ZBT has formidable inner power, his hair was turning black again even though he was over 90 years of age! His Chuen Jun inner power training coupled with the complete 9Y would have made his inner power insanely high. Even as early as LOCH Wah San Lun Gim II, he was using 9Y Volume One to fight off Kau Cheen Yan. ZBT has basically been practicing Chuen Jun kung-fu since he met WCY so I dispute whether YG does have better inner power than him.

As for sad palms, I don't think it's that unique considering HL18P can also become more lethal depending on the situation. When WY was injured by Iron Palms, GJ used a palm from HL18P and clashed with Kau Cheen Yan. The dire situation increased the effect of the palm. The disparity between the power of KCY and GJ at this point was huge since KCY was just a shade below the Greats.

Lastly, there's still a lot about L/R Hand technique that needs to be answered, perhaps in a new revision. How does this inner power improvement theory work? GJ was able to somehow multiply, though not double, his inner power by practicing with L/R hand when he was in the cave with ZBT. If this is true, would there be some way to double the output power of the palms? I don't think anything was mentioned about it after this afterwards.

[sixdays]

to condor83:

that's an interesting point you make about ZBT's inner power. are you someone who believes that ZBT is above the other Greats?

you know, this makes me even more intrigued about ZBT's fight with YG. we can say that ZBT training QZ internal energy + 9yin is comparable to the way GJ trained his own internal energy --- they both should possess the same foundation. yet YG was able to match up (at least) with ZBT, who was training GJ's style for 40 years more...

is it just that ZBT was lazy and didn't apply himself the way GJ did? or is there a limit or cap to how much energy can be acquired using the 9yin and QZ combination? it was described during the fight that ZBT was intimidated by the "aggressiveness" of YG's inner power. 1deng also comments that the energy that YG accumulated was very "aggressive, violent" and not suited for subtlety. is this "aggressive" quality a good or bad thing for YG?

----

to duguxiaojing:

don't worry about comin up against me...that's the whole point of a forum, right? i post this stuff, hoping someone will comment and criticize so i can expand my knowledge and think from different angles as well. no hard feelings. in fact, it was hitman who gave me the inspiration for my analysis on sadpalm...

to answer your thoughts, i agree in that GWM's internal energy is not too far off of YG's own. in fact, throughout ROCH, GWM has been giving GJ a run for his money in that department. added with his elephant/dragon kungfu skill, i don't underestimate his internal energy capabilities.

however, i still stand by my analysis of YG's comment. see, the ironsword/no sword technique by DGQB is more than just using internal energy like you would by matching palms. it's a technique that teaches you to FOCUS the ocean of internal energy you built up through training into each single blow, strengthening your weapon and your attack in the process. simply using internal energy to brace your weapon, like GWM did, is not enough to combat the superior focus that no-sword abilities bring.

think about it: if YG can smash the wheel from GWM's hands using just a normal sword, wouldn't it follow that he could just break through the wheel with a better weapon (i.e. ironsword)? at that point, knowing GWM, he'd just be frozen in shock that YG broke his wheel, and die beneath the ironsword still muttering, "i don't believe it"...

however, JY didn't have YG bring the ironsword so that he could showcase the power of sadpalms in the end. after all, if YG could defeat GWM with his sword, then why would he need to use sadpalms? that's why JY made him leave it in the end.

----
to dirt:

I think all of the original 5 Greats have comparable understandings of martial arts. Ou Yang Feng was able to break the last stance of Dog Beating Stick for instance.

after a whole day and night of thinking, right? or was it even longer? at any rate, OYF would have no opportunity to break that move in the heat of battle --- after all, if H7G is trying to kill him do you think that H7G will give him a day to counter his attacks? i think not.

HYS, on the other hand, in every fight is able to come up with a way to counter in a short amount of time every martial arts he came across. this shows his understanding of the theory behind his opponent's martial arts, and therefore his knowledge overall of martial arts.

---

i was going to talk about L/R technique next, condor83, but i decided that i'm gonna make a new thread because i'm tired right now, and i want to be able to see thoughts about L/R technique without it turning into a GJ vs. YG war.

[superboy]

Originally posted by sixdays
whew...so much has happened since i last visited the thread.

*cracks knuckles*

better get back to work defending YG...someone has to do it.

to superboy:

first, you say that JLGS is equal to YG.

JLGS = YG

and then you guys say that ZBT is above the other Greats and above JLGS as well, and that's why YG disposed of JLGS so quickly --- because JLGS was not up to ZBT's level.

ZBT > other Greats

Greats ~= JLGS

next, you say that YG and ZBT are the same because they fought to a draw.

ZBT = YG

THEN you say that YG was using his full sadpalms on HYS, therefore trying to use his full power against HYS and only tying.

HYS (a Great) = YG

do you even notice your discrepancies here? with every argument that you use to try and disprove my theory that sadpalms gets more powerful the more sad you are, you change YG's level relative to other heroes in the novel. i cannot take you seriously until you at least choose a constant. i have chosen mine here:

ZBT > the other Greats

JLGS ~= the Greats

now, let's see what i do with them.

----

what YG does with sadpalms

YG uses sadpalms and ties with his friend HYS.

YG = HYS

YG uses sadpalms and ties with ZBT.

YG = ZBT

YG uses sadpalms and defeats JLGS.

YG > JLGS

----

like you said, superboy, if YG was only as powerful as ZBT after using his sadpalms, he should be able to defeat JLGS because JLGS is below ZBT.

but wait a minute...

isn't HYS not as powerful as ZBT? how come if YG was using FULL POWER sadpalm with ZBT and resulted in a tie, he used FULL POWER sadpalm with HYS and resulted in a tie also? what's the difference here?

the only difference could be that the sadpalms were of different strength. if they were of different strengths, then that disproves the theory:

"all you need is to feel sad for the sadpalms to work. it only has one power setting that comes out when you're sad...it doesn't depend on how sad you are".

also, if the Greats and JLGS are equals, why did YG tie with HYS (healthy) while defeating JLGS (injured)?

it must be because the sadpalms he used in each situation were of different strengths.

he was sad for losing XLN for 16 years (but knew they would be reunited 16 years later) when he fought HYS, so they fought to a tie. when YG was close to death while fighting JLGS, he would have parted with XLN FOREVER --- he wouldn't even have the hope of "16 yeras later". naturally, this would make him more sad than before...

and what happened in the fight with JLGS? YG'S SADPALMS GOT STRONGER AND DEFEATED JLGS.

looks like it's obvious, folks. sadpalms depends on the sadness of the user.

This is quite easy to make out. While HYS may fought with about a draw to YG, I think in the long run, HYS would probably lose. During the fight of YG vs ZBT, it was already said that ZBT was the strongest opponent YG's palms have ever met, and the fight was after HYS vs YG. So what does that say?

[superboy]

HOWEVER...throughout the sparring, ZBT was already pressured by what he called "YG's aggressive internal energy". YG knows that if he were to untap all of his internal energy, it would be similar to what he does in the ocean...blasting forth to beat back the forces threatening to consume him. but that is dangerous to ZBT, because YG will then have no control and even perhaps kill ZBT, or get killed by ZBT...so he decided not to compare internal energy.

YG only thought that they may end up like H7G and OYF, or one will die while the other will be seriously injured. It was not that he know that it will endanger ZBT, but both will be endangered.

[superboy]

you know, this makes me even more intrigued about ZBT's fight with YG. we can say that ZBT training QZ internal energy + 9yin is comparable to the way GJ trained his own internal energy --- they both should possess the same foundation. yet YG was able to match up (at least) with ZBT, who was training GJ's style for 40 years more...

ZBT had never cultivated with 9 Yin's internal energy.

[superboy]

think about it: if YG can smash the wheel from GWM's hands using just a normal sword, wouldn't it follow that he could just break through the wheel with a better weapon (i.e. ironsword)? at that point, knowing GWM, he'd just be frozen in shock that YG broke his wheel, and die beneath the ironsword still muttering, "i don't believe it"...

The wheel did not got smash, it just got knocked away by YG's sword.

[Noodles]

Originally posted by Condor83


Lastly, there's still a lot about L/R Hand technique that needs to be answered, perhaps in a new revision. How does this inner power improvement theory work? GJ was able to somehow multiply, though not double, his inner power by practicing with L/R hand when he was in the cave with ZBT. If this is true, would there be some way to double the output power of the palms? I don't think anything was mentioned about it after this afterwards.

I remember someone else (or was it you?) talking about this point in the other forum before but they couldn't find the source so I glanced over a few the chapters of LOCH where GJ and ZBT were in the cave on Peach Blossom Island.

In chapter 17, Guo Jing said that if one uses the Left Right technique in battle, though you are not able to boost your internal energy, you will gain a great advantage in terms of technique.

A little bit later on, Guo Jing was thinking to himself, "To practise this advanced one into two, left right attacking technique, the inner chi inside must differentiate from left to right and don't interfere with each other." He then covered his nose with his finger and started to breath in and out through his left side and then breath in and out through his right. After practising for a while, he felt he made some improvements in this area. (Here, I'm assuming that he made improvements in controlling his chi for better use of the left right technique)

Maybe I glanced over the chapters too quickly but I couldn't find where it said that the left right technique enabled Guo Jing to multiply his inner power with the left right technique.

[Noodles]

Originally posted by superboy
This is quite easy to make out. While HYS may fought with about a draw to YG, I think in the long run, HYS would probably lose. During the fight of YG vs ZBT, it was already said that ZBT was the strongest opponent YG's palms have ever met, and the fight was after HYS vs YG. So what does that say?

The YG vs ZBT fight was before YG vs HYS

[Candide]

In the long run obviously HYS would lose. He was close to 90, and YG was only 36~40.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Candide
In the long run obviously HYS would lose. He was close to 90, and YG was only 36~40.

That little brat, Yeung Gor . . . beating up on senior citizens!