another YG and GJ thread

[Condor83]

to sixdays:
I don't think ZBT actively practiced 9Y like GJ, but he was still able to use it in combat. Again, the first instance I recall was at the end of LOCH against KCY. I'm certain it said he used Vol. One, which is internal power training. He definitely knows it, but probably not on the same level as GJ. Given that ZBT is also quite handy with the 9Y techniques in Vol. Two as well, I think he is the best of the remaining greats. Just before the second Wah San Lun Gim, WY commented that if ZBT uses 9Y, he would likely be the strongest amongst WYS, AYF, H7G, KCY. On the contrary, if he doesn't use 9Y, he might not be a match against the others. In the years since WSLG II, I think it's safe to say ZBT did improve his skills in general along with the other Greats.

BTW, it'll only be a matter of time before a L/R Hand thread turns into a GJ vs. YG war! We could probably have a discussion on best themesongs and it'll get highjacked into GJ vs. YG.

to Noodles:
You're right, I saw that post on another forum, but I didn't verify it with the novel yet. Obviously, I was not the one who originated the idea though I vaguely remember GJ doing inner power training with L/R Hand and saying that it can boost his internal power. Let me check the novels. Just to be consistent, are you using the revised or original LOCH?

I do remember GJ saying there's a great improvement in technique, but.... oh let's save this for a L/R Hand thread..

to anyone interested:
How come no one ever talks about South Emperor in combat? He's a great too! What about YG vs. 1D?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Condor83
How come no one ever talks about South Emperor in combat? He's a great too! What about YG vs. 1D?

Probably because we barely see him in action during L/ROCH. We know he can perform 1 Yeung Finger Technique at a very high level, and we know he's one of the Greats. Other than that, we have one battle against the Golden Wheel Monk (with help from Chow Bak Tung and Wong Yerk See) to showcase his abilities. Not much to go on.

[Noodles]

I'm using the second edition of LOCH.

[Anonymous]

Candid: Even in LOCH, when he was a rather inexperienced 19 yo, he could use 2 different Dragon Palms to break OYK's arm. When he fought HQG at the end of LOCH, he was using Kong Ming Fists with one hand and Dragon Palms with the other. It would be easy peasy for him to do that in ROCH.
--- K. However, the first example is against a non-great fighter, so doesnt count becuz that gy may have poor techniques GJ vs. H7G is interesting that GJ can "withstand" a great, a level above GJ. Any other scenes in LOCH with ZBT/GJ using his L/R technique on a great and the results?
--- And if GJ uses L/R technique can withstand a Great (H7G), YG's difficulty with a ZBT (w/ L+R tech and VacantFist --I heard similar to HL18Z in prowess-- ) really doesnt show YG "losing" but having a hard time. It's a "surprise" attack after all. How would H7G/HYS now react to L/R technique? Too bad GX intervened, a REAL bummer. [However, I get the feeling ZBT=GWM from posts here (and thru my previous "symbolic" analysis. ) But dont have the support.]
.
.
6Day: it was described during the fight that ZBT was intimidated by the "aggressiveness" of YG's inner power. 1deng also comments that the energy that YG accumulated was very "aggressive, violent" and not suited for subtlety. is this "aggressive" quality a good or bad thing for YG?
--- We know that YG could go from soft to hard (ie WoodenSword training). Shows you what "greats" know. (ie. still students?)
.
.
6Day: however, JY didn't have YG bring the ironsword so that he could showcase the power of sadpalms in the end. after all, if YG could defeat GWM with his sword, then why would he need to use sadpalms?
--- This contradicts your theory about "chi-shells" It's the chi (sword-shape) and not the weapon when doing "distance" attacks. I may have found the reason for "wooden sword" over "ironSword."
.
.
6Day: HYS, on the other hand, in every fight is able to come up with a way to counter in a short amount of time every martial arts he came across. this shows his understanding of the theory behind his opponent's martial arts, and therefore his knowledge overall of martial arts.
--- Wonder if HYS created the DG9J. It's strange that YG has lower techniques than ZBT and HYS after his IronSword (formless) training; meaning, can YG do the same? (ie. without GX's intervention of ZBT vs. YG). And do you mean HYS can neutralize (and not counter) opponent's martial arts? since counter is "reversal" right? (ie. AncientTomb vs. QZ)(ie. DG9J).
.
.
c83: ZBT has formidable inner power, his hair was turning black again even though he was over 90 years of age! His Chuen Jun inner power training coupled with the complete 9Y would have made his inner power insanely high. Even as early as LOCH Wah San Lun Gim II, he was using 9Y Volume One to fight off Kau Cheen Yan. ZBT has basically been practicing Chuen Jun kung-fu since he met WCY so I dispute whether YG does have better inner power than him
--- Recall YG got JadeHeartManual's (AncientTomb) innerPowerTraining (better than QZ) and QZ's innerPowerTraining, and insane SnakeGall's, and Dugu's 2 stages of training. [I'm not even talking about AncientTomb's Icebed and other tricks -- like innerPowerTransferal from other greats.]
.
.
Super: ZBT had never cultivated with 9 Yin's internal energy.
--- ZBT knows all QZ stuff, except CentralDiv's trademark thing. I heard that once QZ innerPowerTech is learned, as one ages, one gain innerPower regardless of training. Even if it requires training, ZBT's adventures/antics/(troublemaker stuff) and battles is more than enough training. [ie. ZBT = DGQB-light; searching over the world for ... mischief.]
.
.
c83: Just before the second Wah San Lun Gim, WY commented that if ZBT uses 9Y, he would likely be the strongest amongst WYS, AYF, H7G, KCY. On the contrary, if he doesn't use 9Y, he might not be a match against the others. In the years since WSLG II, I think it's safe to say ZBT did improve his skills in general along with the other Greats.
--- If true, then ZBT "actively" using 9Yin on YG says something about YG's skills. [jk: Must have scared the crap out of ZBT's subconsciousness to force ZBT to do so. ]
.
.
c83: GJ was able to somehow multiply, though not double, his inner power by practicing with L/R hand when he was in the cave with ZBT. If this is true, would there be some way to double the output power of the palms?
--- I think L/R innerPower increase is only temporary, cuz 1) GJ is still a newbie at that time and his theory may not hold 2) What Noodles posted seems the method for L/R innerPower increase cuz each hand "practices" two different things; it's like doubling the effort so to speak. 3) In the end L/R is a "trick" (like DG9J) and tricks have a limit. Recall why YG had to follow the Condor to another training area to train the woodenSword. "Diminishing returns" from practice the same thing/difficulty. [Think DBZ's Goku and increasing Gravity training]
.
.
Thx 6Days for the "inspirational" SadPalms analysis. Your reasons feel right.
.
Thx DuguX for an objectivity regarding YG and GWM and GJ info/translation. Esp regarding GWM's power.
.
Thx Noodles for the small translation.

[duguxiaojing]

R u in college man? U use alot of words im learnin right now logical fallacieseng(2201) an diminishing(econ2203) returns

[sixdays]

anonymous always gives me something to respond to. here we go:

Candid: Even in LOCH, when he was a rather inexperienced 19 yo, he could use 2 different Dragon Palms to break OYK's arm. When he fought HQG at the end of LOCH, he was using Kong Ming Fists with one hand and Dragon Palms with the other. It would be easy peasy for him to do that in ROCH.

--- K. However, the first example is against a non-great fighter, so doesnt count becuz that guy may have poor techniques. GJ vs. H7G is interesting that GJ can "withstand" a great, a level above GJ. Any other scenes in LOCH with ZBT/GJ using his L/R technique on a great and the results?

agreed with part 1. OYK is trash compared to either GJ OR YG, so it's really a moot point.

as to GJ vs. H7G...i don't understand the validity of this argument. if the point is that GJ could stand up to H7G using L/R technique, i agree completely. after all, at this time GJ was able to use TWICE the amount of techniques at one time that H7G was able to. one hand defending the other made it difficult for H7G to see the gaps, and therefore because of this confusion GJ was able to withstand 300 moves. however, it's clear that H7G would still clearly win at this time. though we already recognize GJ's potential, he is still below any of the other Greats and even Qiu Quan Ren (Kau Cheen Yan) in terms of refinement and internal energy.

if the point is to say that GJ could use L/R hand technique against YG, well then that's obvious. no one's arguing that. so why did superboy bring up this point?

--- And if GJ uses L/R technique can withstand a Great (H7G), YG's difficulty with a ZBT (w/ L+R tech and VacantFist --I heard similar to HL18Z in prowess-- ) really doesnt show YG "losing" but having a hard time. It's a "surprise" attack after all. How would H7G/HYS now react to L/R technique? Too bad GX intervened, a REAL bummer. [However, I get the feeling ZBT=GWM from posts here (and thru my previous "symbolic" analysis. ) But dont have the support.]

that's an interesting proposition that GWM = ZBT. it makes me think...why did JY have ZBT kill GWM out of nowhere, instead of having YG finish him off? there's a link there that wants to be uncovered...let's all go find it

6Day: it was described during the fight that ZBT was intimidated by the "aggressiveness" of YG's inner power. 1deng also comments that the energy that YG accumulated was very "aggressive, violent" and not suited for subtlety. is this "aggressive" quality a good or bad thing for YG?

--- We know that YG could go from soft to hard (ie WoodenSword training). Shows you what "greats" know. (ie. still students?)

it's true that YG can manipulate his energy from hard to soft. however, i think the overall characteristic of his internal energy is yang, and the soft/hard thing is more indicating that he was beginning to understand the versatility of wooden sword.

6Day: however, JY didn't have YG bring the ironsword so that he could showcase the power of sadpalms in the end. after all, if YG could defeat GWM with his sword, then why would he need to use sadpalms?

--- This contradicts your theory about "chi-shells" It's the chi (sword-shape) and not the weapon when doing "distance" attacks. I may have found the reason for "wooden sword" over "ironSword."

i need to clarify here. what happened was YG underestimated GWM, and so did not take the time to focus and power his sword to full strength...he didn't fully powerup his chi-shell, if you will. this is why his sword stroke was so much LESS powerful than he thought it would be...because he didn't know that GWM would have trained elephant/dragon internal energy to an even higher level. YG didn't want to waste internal energy on GWM, because they were surrounded by troops after all...so he used just enough energy to beat GWM, or so he thought. when he found out that GWM's energy had increased as well, he was shocked because that meant his attack wasn't good enough. that's why YG felt regret and annoyance that he didn't bring his ironsword...because he knew that even if he didn't take time to powerup the sword to his full strength, it still would have been enough to make a much stronger impact on GWM, perhaps killing him in one blow (wouldn't that have been great...)

--- Wonder if HYS created the DG9J. It's strange that YG has lower techniques than ZBT and HYS after his IronSword (formless) training; meaning, can YG do the same? (ie. without GX's intervention of ZBT vs. YG). And do you mean HYS can neutralize (and not counter) opponent's martial arts? since counter is "reversal" right? (ie. AncientTomb vs. QZ)(ie. DG9J).

thanks for clarifying. i do indeed mean neutralizing. and i DO think that, given more time, YG would have defeated those two Greats. it's just his respect for them that held him back from goin all out.

and before superboy says "if you don't go all out, then these fighters are so powerful that they'll kill you", i've got to add this one thing: ZBT and HYS felt the same way about YG. they loved him like a nephew and friend...why would they seek to kill the guy? clearly, those sparring matches between the fighters were just that --- sparring. they were only comparing techniques, not full martial arts skill overall. that's why YG couldn't find a technique in his arsenal to beat ZBT except for his two best --- ironsword and sadpalm. he would never use a weapon on an unarmed man, so he used sadpalm...but to my knowledge, he didn't even use the highest moves of sadpalm against ZBT and still tied. ZBT was hounding YG at the time to show him all the moves of sadpalm, but even after ZBT tried his hardest he was unable to make YG do it. YG's refusal to do the highest moves of sadpalm must have been because he knew he couldn't control them...remember, in his last moves against GWM he struck out in an almost unconscious state, totally wrapped up in his emotion. that's why ZBT and YG simply tied...because YG didn't know if he would kill ZBT if he used his best move, or ZBT would kill YG rather than be killed.

----

as to all the L/R tech stuff, i'm starting to build some interesting theories...but i'm saving it for a new thread because im too lazy to write more.

[LiarLiar]

Go read Athena translation of the battle YG and the Golden Wheel Monk! It's a great read!

[atlantean0208]

Originally posted by LiarLiar
Go read Athena translation of the battle YG and the Golden Wheel Monk! It's a great read!

yehhh, please do re-reference because most of the fight detail now change and please restart the GJ vs YG from the start muahahahaa

[sixdays]

it's true...athena's translation made me so happy...

i havent been this happy about ROCH since noodles translated the part about YG training by the sea.

lots of new ideas, and lots of revising of old ones on the way (gotta take a lot of stuff back)

stay tuned, i am the king of GJ vs. YG debates

[atlantean0208]

Originally posted by sixdays
it's true...athena's translation made me so happy...

i havent been this happy about ROCH since noodles translated the part about YG training by the sea.

lots of new ideas, and lots of revising of old ones on the way (gotta take a lot of stuff back)

stay tuned, i am the king of GJ vs. YG debates

yehh horray to SIXDAY, I'm always be your loyal supporter....

[superboy]

and before superboy says "if you don't go all out, then these fighters are so powerful that they'll kill you", i've got to add this one thing: ZBT and HYS felt the same way about YG. they loved him like a nephew and friend...why would they seek to kill the guy? clearly, those sparring matches between the fighters were just that --- sparring. they were only comparing techniques, not full martial arts skill overall. that's why YG couldn't find a technique in his arsenal to beat ZBT except for his two best --- ironsword and sadpalm. he would never use a weapon on an unarmed man, so he used sadpalm...but to my knowledge, he didn't even use the highest moves of sadpalm against ZBT and still tied. ZBT was hounding YG at the time to show him all the moves of sadpalm, but even after ZBT tried his hardest he was unable to make YG do it. YG's refusal to do the highest moves of sadpalm must have been because he knew he couldn't control them...remember, in his last moves against GWM he struck out in an almost unconscious state, totally wrapped up in his emotion. that's why ZBT and YG simply tied...because YG didn't know if he would kill ZBT if he used his best move, or ZBT would kill YG rather than be killed.

What is the difference anywayz. YG and ZBT gone all out. It was a serious fight, not just a comparison of techniques. And what higher form of Sad Palms? If YG could beat him, then he would have that time. And it was stated I believe, that it is somehow more easierfor Yg to just defend and run around while ZBT attack and waste his energy. SAo it is not that YG is better. And I don't believe that it was stated that YG thought that his highest move might kill ZBT right? Are you sure there are basis on what you just claimed? Excuse my tone, that's just simply how I talk.

[Dirt]

I think the final fight between OYF and HQG is Jin Yong's reply to the fans in regards to the questions of who is more powerful. In the end, they both died, it didn't matter. It was their lives and what they did with it that mattered, not who was a better martial artist.

[duguxiaojing]

It wasnt stated that it was easier for YG to defend he didnt have to only defend he was matching ZBT b4 enyways but when YG went straight D and ZBT went all out ofense it did make it alot easier on YG.

6D im glad u dont mind me contradicting against your theories but imma have to do it again . IMOP YG threw everything he had into sword cause after his sword broke he seemed almost afraid his regret was not only that he had not bought iron sword but he felt that he may have overestimated himself as well for not using it for 16years.

[Condor83]

Any other scenes in LOCH with ZBT/GJ using his L/R technique on a great and the results?

The only other scene where I can think of is ZBT against KCY just before GJ, AYF, KCY and ZBT encountered each other in the dark room. Though KCY is not an official Great, he's much stronger than the other victims of L/R Hand like Auyeung Hak and the next generation Chuen Jun disciples. ZBT had travelled to Iron Palm Peak to bring KCY's head as WY instructed. They dueled and fought to a draw at first. Then ZBT started using L/R Hand and won. I only read a description of the fight and I don't recall the battle was recounted move-for-move in the novel. If it was described in detail, most likely in an earlier chapter, please notify me so I can read it again.. Of course, someone's going to say the move just confused KCY and that's the secret to the technique, hence my thread on L/R Hands - All Smoke and No Fire. Keep in mind KCY thought he could hold his own against other Greats, but did not think he could defeat ZBT.

Since I don't buy any of this confusion, trickery nonsense, largely because the novel states there is an improvement in technique from L/R Hand, I stand by my GJ downs YG view. Since GJ vs. YG would be a close match, the slight edge in technique may well be the decider and prevent an internal energy battle. Speaking of improvement in techniques, no one has never used two techniques from 9Y simultaneously. I don't think it's too improbable for there to be two 9Y techiques which create a powerful synergy if used in quick succession, or better yet, if used together. Of course, I would have liked a revision to the 3rd ROCH edition where GX either stays out of the fight or gets her arse kicked for interrupting the show.

[Anonymous]

duguX: R u in college man? U use alot of words im learnin right now logical fallacieseng(2201) an diminishing(econ2203) returns
--- yea. College English and Finance/Econ/Physics/(ComputerStuff).
.
.
.
6Day: however, i think the overall characteristic of his internal energy is yang, and the soft/hard thing is more indicating that he was beginning to understand the versatility of wooden sword.
--- My focus here is that 1Deng mentions that YG is "incapable of sublety" with Yang-ness, but this is false from "woodenSword" stage [he "is" capable of sublety/versatility].
.
.
6Day: i need to clarify here. what happened was YG underestimated GWM, and so did not take the time to focus and power his sword to full strength... [...] YG didn't want to waste internal energy on GWM, because they were surrounded by troops after all...so he used just enough energy to beat GWM, or so he thought.
--- When "greats" compete I dont think they do it in the bare minimum powerLevels. YG wants to find out how GWM take his attack: he may do his best or else like you said -- just sufficient. [Did YG fully power?]
.
.
6Day: ZBT and HYS felt the same way about YG. they loved him like a nephew and friend...why would they seek to kill the guy? clearly, those sparring matches between the fighters were just that --- sparring. they were only comparing techniques, not full martial arts skill overall
--- Recall YG was testing the waters on ZBT; YG felt ZBT cannot take his attacks so dumbs it down but found ZBT "could" take them, so increased his attacks (and powerOutput --I believe to nearMax?). It was sparring but was also (literally) overall martial arts (like final duel of H7G vs. OYF before the 100% innerPower contest; they were also competing with inner Power too. The best of HL18Z vs. ToadStuff. Same with GWMlv10 vs. ZBT)
.
.
6Day: YG's refusal to do the highest moves of sadpalm must have been because he knew he couldn't control them...remember, in his last moves against GWM he struck out in an almost unconscious state, totally wrapped up in his emotion.
--- That situation is YG's re-introduction to the roots of SadPalms. [In literature, going back to the beginning is a momentous "enlightenment." It's "returning to the source" and being "whole." For fantasy lovers read "A Wizard of EarthSea" by Ursula K. Leguin] As for those moves being the highest, the story only illustrates the moves are now more effective against GWM. It could be that YG finally in-sync with SadPalms that the moves become more effective [from your SadPalm theory. ]

[Anonymous]

Athen: Zhou Botong felt that his opponent's power was omnipotent, he had never seen this before. Zhou Botong loves martial arts and whenever he knew someone who had a special skill he would challenge that individual to a duel. He has encountered numerous martial artists in his life, but even he had never heard or seen such strong power released by the Imperial Priest. He did not know what skill the Imperial Priest used, so he used his 72 Vacant Fists to battle the Imperial Priest. He used void to intercept solid and nothingness to block solidity. By doing so he has rendered the awesome power of the Imperial Priest useless, but it was also impossible for him to wound his adversary.

--- GWM'sAttack may be "greater" than SadPalms/HL18Z. [Yet YG was able to "tie" with GWMlv10 during their clash.]
.
--- VacantFist can render "fierce" attacks like GWM'sAttack/HL18Z/SadP useless; however, this technique is mainly for "defense." We can assume that ZBT=GWM here becuz ZBT cannot do anything to GWM. [More ZBT=GWM later] Question now: can YG do a DG9J succession of attacks and succeed a hit? [YG's/GWM's tech put opponents on defensive.]
.
--- How much power does VacantFist waste compared to GWM'sAttack/HL18Z/SadP? [having lowerInnerPower in the end is bad.]
.
.
.

Athen: The Imperial Priest went through a lot to escape and was running as fast as possible, he knew if he was detained by Zhou Botong he had to fight at least another few hundred stances to determine who would win.
[...]
At this moment Yang Guo using one arm had fought more than 200 stances with the Imperial Priest. Both of their martial arts are quite different from each other and the battle kept intensifying. [...] Also he saw that the techniques of Yang Guo were very marvellous and feared that after another 100 stances or more he would be defeated by Yang Guo.

--- GWM vs ZBT require a "few hundred stanced" to determine outcome and GWM vs. YG require 300 stances to determine outcome. Likelihood that GWM=ZBT and YG=ZBT [More support later.]
.
.
.

Athen: In the beginning there was only one metre or so in between reverend Yideng and Imperial Priest Jinlun, but soon after dodging palm blasts and evading finger fires the gap between them gradually became bigger. They were now standing about four metres apart from each other and used their internal strenghts to battle each other from afar.
[...]
The eagles could not cope with such force and directly flew up higher. Nonetheless because of this diversion reverend Yideng immediately gained the upper hand. The Imperial Priest struck out a few times with his left palm bringing the battle to a draw again.
[...]
When experts battle, their concentration should be at their peaks, one with their entities only that way their internal strengths could be fully utilized. The palm energies released by Imperial Priest Jinlun were superior to reverend Yideng but when it came to self cultivation he was very much inferior to reverend Yideng. Furthermore he was intensely saddened by the lost of Guo Xiang, that already affected his state of mind and now the eagles kept pestering him adding more frustation to his state of being.

--- Examples seem to illustrate the GWM is better than greats like 1Deng (HYS?)
1. GWM "ties" with 1Deng despite GX's situation affecting his mind. 1Deng doesnt have distractions.
2. Despite distraction from eagles (and relieving one hand to fend them), GWM was able to "tie" with 1Deng. The method of "struck out a few times with his left palm bringing the battle to a draw" is reminescent of HL18Z.
3. JY explicitly states that GWM can unleash a higher OutputPower than 1Deng.
[Thus, GWM may equal ZBT.]
.
--- However, it's interesting how GWM compares to 1Deng as if they are equal:
1. "One was an enlightened, eminent Buddhist monk from the <<<south>>>, the other was an extraordinary Buddhist virtuoso from the <<<north>>>,"
.
.
.

Athen: Yang Guo put his sword back into his girdle and used his palm to intercept that blow from the Imperial Priest. When the two huge forces collided, both of them rocked about and the wooden ladder shook a few times like it was going to break. Both of them were shocked and praised the opponent:"I haven't seen him for 16 years, I never imagined his internal power would have increased this much."
[...]
He [YG] wanted to test the internal strength of the Imperial Priest. At the moment when the wheels and sword collided there was a loud clang sound. The huge powers collided with each other, the sword of Yang Guo broke into two pieces and the wheels flew out of the Imperial Priest's hands. Wheels fell to the ground smashing three Mongolian archers.
[...]
After exchanging one blow each leapt aside, their arms felt numb.

--- YG/GWM's [regular] outPower are equal. This is not SadPalms yet.
.
.
.

Athen: Although Yang Guo was not using a weapon [just his palm and one sleeve] he was not in a disadvantage,
[...]
Also he [GWM] saw that the techniques of Yang Guo were very marvellous and feared that after another 100 stances or more he would be defeated by Yang Guo.
[...]
Guo Xiang shouted:"Old monk, I told you before. You are no match for him! If you're really that powerful, why do you have to use your weapons? Can't you fight him empty-handed? You're a disgrace!"
The Imperial Priest grunted and did not answer, he increased power and speed to his stances.

--- Interesting that with "one-hand" and one sleeve, he could hold his own against GWM. Meaning, YG's "one-hand" handicap is void (which may support my "symbolic analysis" of ZBT vs. YG fight, that YG may "eventually" hold his own against L/R technique.)
--- GWM's "fear" of defeat and "really" being defeated are different things. Technique-wise, YG seems superior. This is not SadPalms yet.
--- Notice GX's parallel in asking YG's opponent to lowerAttackPower (belittling YG). ZBT vs. YG and now GWM vs. YG. This supports my "symbolic analysis" that YG can match ZBT (L/R technique), and then YG=GWM (at least).
.
.
.

Athen: <<<Whenever Yang Guo was faced with a great, powerful adversary>>> he would use his melancholic sad palms to defeat his opponent. This style was linked to his state of being, when he was reunited with Xiao Longnu his heart was filled with bliss and happiness. There was not a trace of melancholy or sadness anymore, he was now faced with a dire situation and was using this very style. But somehow the flair of melancholy and longing was gone, every move, stance he made was the same as in the past but the power of it was greatly diminished.
.
Guo Jing, Huang Rong, etc. saw Yang Guo's battle against the Imperial Priest and saw him being injured [again],
.
He stabbed the sword through the two wheels of the Imperial Priest, the Imperial Priest twisted his wheels and the sword was broken again.

--- Let's assume it's here that YG finally used his SadPalms but his power (I think "effective-ness" is more appropriate) is diminished. This is the first mention of SadPalms in GWM vs. YG. YG is ***-kicked and ineffective.
.
.
.
More next time, too tired from analysis.

[hitman]

This is might be my last post regarding this topic as I had not much time to read and reply consistently every day.It would take few days once to do so.

"if you look at the sparring between ZBT and YG, you will see that this is a sort of "exhibition" match...where they are trying to get the best of each other with new techniques, not by simply all-out brawling."

This is not an exhibition match.YG was not holding back at all.I am certain some other poster has translated that part.Please read it again.

" i think YG is superior to ZBT in terms of internal energy, and simply does not want to take the fight to another level."
YG is not necessary superior in terms of internal energy compared to ZBT but rather more fierce while ZBT is more refined.
"that was YG scolding himself for being "arrogant", and not focusing his energy when using the normal sword. he was annoyed because he thought he was so much above GWM that he wouldn't have to try his hardest to break the wheel, but he calculated wrong and simply knocked the wheel out of GWM's hands instead of cutting through and killing him right there. when YG wishes that he brought the ironsword, he's just expressing his annoyance --- because if he had used his ironsword instead of a normal one, it would have crushed through the wheel and killed GWM instantly. "

I think you have overestimate YG in that part.I am glad Athena had translated that part from 3rd edition.If you read her post,YG already knew GWM internal energy is very strong and it doesn't make sense if YG doesn't try this hardest to clash with GWM.He regretted for not bringing the heavy sword was more to giving him a better advanatge when clashing with GWM.Furthermore it happen again for 2nd time when YG clashed with GWM wheel.If you said YG had not much time to 'powered up' which I disagree,the same thing can be said for GWM.

"let me get this straight: he makes a comment after breaking a sword on GWM's wheel, and that means that his sadpalms suck? that's an interesting theory, that his sword skills reflect on his palm skills..."

if that is true then i might as well end the GJ vs YG debate right here, because if GJ's sword skill reflects on his palm skill then he's done for. how could he ever match YG's swordsmanship?"
I might forgotten the sequence of that sentence as it had been very long time I look at ROCH so it is my mistake.But my statement regarding the sad palm was when he started using it against GWM when he was injured.Don't look down on GJ's sword skill.It is not as bad as you think.GJ sword skill is more to defence than offence.In 2nd Wah Shan,GJ managed to use that skill to dissapate H7G's dargon palm.

"um...that's an interesting question. "does sadpalms need sadness to work", huh? does dogbeating stick need the opponent to be a dog? can i really subdue a dragon with HL18Z? do you need to be a star in order to use the big dipper formation?
many martial arts are named out of their INSPIRATION...their titles do not simply tell you all the theories that they are based on. otherwise, who would title their kungfu at all? all i'd have to do is hear the name, and then i could learn/counter it. the more i think about sadpalms, the more i disagree with my old theory that "the more sad you are, the more powerful the palm is". i don't think it's that simple. check out my new theory:
did JY actually ever say that you needed to be sad in order to use sadpalms? actually, i think he only ever stated that the INSPIRATION for sadpalms was YG's heartbreak over XLN...and he also said that the full power of sadpalms would be revealed when YG was sad. but he never said the martial art (because it's really more than a palm, it's a whole system involving different movements) needed sadness to activate it."

Of course name is name,you doesn't seems to understand what I am saying.Sad palm can still be used when you are not sad or whatever but that doesn't mean it will be at full effectiveness.Much of its power and essence will be lost if the user is not on sad mood.JY did mention that.That is what I am SAYING.Gezz.But that doesn't mean the more sadder you are the more powerful that palm will be.

"however, there is no way that YG could walk around in that emotional state ALL THE TIME...and that's not an emotional state that you can conjure at will, like internal energy."

Of course you don't need to be crying all the time for it to be fully effective.My father's friend wife passed away for few months.He is very heart-broken about it and was not clear-mind for the first few weeks.But that doesn't prevent him from meeting my father for some old reunion and joking.You can still sense his sad mood.So this is same with YG.

"the sadpalms that YG used in the later parts of ROCH, other than the last 3 moves against GWM, was simply a system and did not require sadness to work."

It is a system yes but it is fully effective because he was in a sad mood just like what I mentioned above.He lost that mood once he reunite with XLN which caused his sad palm effectiveness to drop.If you still said that YG's last 3 palms were out of ordinary than usual then it is also not much different from XL18J.In 2nd Wah Shan tournament H7G had used more than 150 palms at GJ but at the last move,H7G used a full concentrartion of his force into his palm on GJ.I could also said that is an out of ordinary XL18J power than usual.So in terms of raw power XL18J is about the same with Sad Palm.

"let me use LCY's jade maiden swordplay as an example. even though this system was completely linked to her feelings for WCY, you did not have to have these feelings in order to learn/practice this martial art. in fact, it will still be good even if the practitioners don't love each other. HOWEVER, the true power of it comes out when one swordsman sacrifices themself for the other, and they both fight to protect the other --- a feat only achieved to its fullest if you are in love."

Correct me if I am wrong,wasn't that YG and XLN don't understand what so great about that when they were practising it?It was once only they used against GWM they managed to understand the essence?

"this also explains why JY mentioned the sadpalms not being at "fullpower" ONLY in the fight against GWM. in reality, what was YG doing when he was first using sadplams against GWM, that was different from how he used it against ZBT and HYS? nothing that we can see. that must mean that the non-"fullpower" sadpalm that YG first used against GWM was the same palm he used against ZBT and HYS. JY only makes the point that sadpalms are not at "fullpower", because he wants to foreshadow the fact that something can make YG's sadpalms even stronger than we have seen previously. and that something is the true sorrow of his heart."

JY didn't specify it was sad palm YG was using when during the beginning of the battle.It is most likely he is using the palm tecniques he developed when he practising in the sea and other techniques.YG surely has more techniques than we knew as same with other Greats.It just that JY didn't elaborate every move and skill they use which is why it took so long for H7G and AYF to battle at the top of Wah Shan mount.If it was just exchanging their main and best skill it would have finished long time ago.JY only elaborate the character's main skills.

"it's not as if YG were going all out, and HYS was just flickin his palms and dodging without trouble; HYS had to use his best martial art to counter one palm from YG. "

Come on give more credit to HYS.If you said YG is not going all out I could also said the same thing about HYS refuse to go all out with YG.It only took HYS best skill to tie with YG best skill.

[darkcser]

Although wisdom might dictate otherwise, I feel an overwhelming itch to comment after reading Noodle's YG vs. ZBT fight.

Observations:

YG was having problems when ZBT starting using his L/R technique. However upon using his Sad Palms YG was able to match ZBT's L/R technique.

To fully resolve the fight when their techniques are matched would require a dangerous inner power struggle. YG declines because there's no reason for a life or death fight here.

ZBT continues to attack YG who just defends with a partial set of moves of Sad Palms and a mix of Quan Zhen and 9Yin (adding insult to injury). Eventually ZBT becomes tired, realizes that he can't prevail, and stops.

This seems to indicate that Sad Palms can match ZBT's L/R + 9Yin + QZ in terms of technique. btw: Is Vacant Fist QZ?

This seems to indicate that ZBT's inner is weaker than YG's -or at least it can't last as long. Guess black haired, QZ inner energy using ZBT still couldn't outlast YG.

Some of you might claim that offense expends more energy than defense but if ZBT couldn't prevail with an all-out-offense for an hour vs. YG who wasn't even using all of his Sad Palms...

Given the above it's rather difficult to say that ZBT>YG.

I'm extremely grateful that Noodles has translated these sections. It seems like much of the YG vs. GJ vs. ZBT debates are based on hearsay so seeing a passage like this is elucidating.

The YG vs. GJ debate might never be resolved since they never had a direct confrontation. The Law of Transitivity doesn't always hold for wu xia battles.

[Anonymous]

[Important lines regarding ZBT vs. YG:
1) YG [w/ one hands] can tie with ZBT using two-hands]
2) YG can fend off L/R technique with SadPalms (as Darkcser said) ]

Noo: Twenty stances passed. The yangness in Zhou's fist and palms gradually surfaced. Yang Guo noticed the changed and suddenly remembered the Demon Subduing Fist of the Nine Yin Manual in the tomb. Yang Guo shouted what about the 'Demon Subduing Fist'? <<<Use two hands [ZBT] and take my 'An Ran Xiao Hun Zhang' [SadPalms]>>>
[...]
Zhou knew that there was no way to avoid the palm’s power and sent out his palm to meet it. The palms collided and Zhou wobbled- his martial arts were not weaker than his opponents but <<<palm for palm, he [ZBT] could not compete with Yang Guo’s heavy and overbearing palms.[except VacantFist] >>>
[...]
‘Out of Nothing’ [SadPalm] was ‘one’ stance but it contained tens of variations within. Even someone with martial arts as high as Zhou was forced on the back foot by it. In this situation, <<<he [ZBT] couldn’t help but also use his right arm to fend off the attack. He had to use all his efforts to block this attack>>>, counterattacking never came into the equation. Nevertheless, he managed to block all the attacks and quickly leapt back in case of some more weird moves.
[...]
<<<Yang Guo’s right sleeve was [soft] like north’s water and his left palm was [hard]like central’s earth, light and swift along with heavy and fierce, Zhou did not dare to delay and immediately [ZBT using L/R technique] used the Vacant Fist with his left hand and the Demon Subduing Fist with his right; light against light, heavy against heavy. After the two attacks came together, the both shouted and moved back a couple of steps.>>>
[...]
Yang Guo said something (this is too himself) about how Zhou was the strongest opponent his palms has ever met and <<<if there was going to be a victor, an internal energy competition would be needed – something he was not prepared to do after what happened to Hong Qi Gong and Ou Yang Feng.>>>
[...]
If Yang Guo wanted to defeat Zhou Bo Tong, it would be no easy task but <<<now that he’s [YG] just concentrating on defending, Zhou was not able to do anything to him. No matter what kind of dummies or tricks that Zhou tried,>>> Yang Guo did not fall for any of them.

.
.
.
YG has higher innerPower than 1Deng, so 1Deng thinks he will lose in an 100% InnerPower battle:

Noo: Yi Deng said that although his roar was too overbearing and was not a product of pure yang energy, he himself in his prime did not have such abundant internal energy let alone now in his old age. No fighter on earth can compete with the ferociousness of his internal energy.

[Anonymous]

Athen: Zhou Botong who was standing at the ground shouted:"Good! One impressive "Entangled by the web of love"."
Yang Guo was stunned for a moment and then he realized , because he was feeling lost and hopless earlier and he unintentionally used the stance [Entangled by the web of love]. The heart is the most important factor of this style, it commands the arm, the arm commands the palm. That day Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy in the Hundred Flowers Vally, therefore he could not grasp the essence behind this style.
When Yang Guo was reunited with Xiao Longnu again, this style lost its' essence. It was when Yang Guo was faced with death and parting with Xiao Longnu the sorrow and melancholy came back again. The power of the Melancholic Sad Palms was revived once again.

--- One big advantage is that fact that ZBT (and probably everyone in ROCH) cannot grasp the "essence" of SadPalms. Having a feel/comprehension for the moves is a step (I think) to overcoming it. [Still, ZBT "did" manage to "tie" with YG.]
.
--- Not sure if YG is already a "great" before his battle with GWM. I think there are few heroes that really lost their "heritage" and then regain it. (repost: YG's re-introduction to the (roots of SadPalms)/(self of self). [In literature, going back to the beginning is a momentous "enlightenment." It's "returning to the source"/(regain himself). For fantasy lovers read "A Wizard of EarthSea" by Ursula K. Leguin]) It's a time when the hero "doubts" his abilities (loses himself) and refinding himself again. I'm sure Laviathan can explain this better. [My guess: it's losing one's self in unconsciousness and then regaining it.] YG learns: "The heart is the most important factor of this style, it commands the arm, the arm commands the palm." [He completely absorbs his own style.][If true, then YG is at what Lava mentions as the finalStage of the Sword "No sword within and without"; he loses his focus/SadPalms/innerSword and regains it.]
.
--- My interpretation of SadPalms: Only understanding the "essence"/mood of SadPalms is necessary. (ie. YG need to attune himself to SadPalms like an actor attunes himself for his role). Yes, he "needs" to be sad. BUT, the trouble of YG (at first) is really "recalling" that "feeling"/"sadness" because he re-united with XLN. However, he "refound" it when he is near defeat. The "whole" situation is like an old pair of lovers looking at a photo-album and recalling a sad (but significant) past event. Can they be sad? Yes, becuz it's a significant journey. YG "refound"/confronted his sadness, so dont you think he can "refind" it again? He knows the way, so I believe he can re-create it.
.
--- An example to my interpretation is what Dorothy in WizardOfOZ realized finally in the end: that she has the power all along to go home or in YG's case, the power to access SadPalms (despite gaining his "happiness", his memory of his "bittersweet"-ness is still there to "fortify" him in later years).
.
.
.

Athen: The power of the Melancholic Sad Palms was revived once again.
<<<Imperial Priest Jinlun was about to be victorious, suddenly he was hit on the shoulder.>>> His chest hurt a lot and he was shaking, he was furious and surprised and attacked instantly again.
Yang Guo backed away and retaliated with [In A State Of Disunity], [Irrational Direction], [The Settled Cessation] and there was another technique falling these three attacks, namely [The Meaningless Wanderer]. <<<This stance was a kick, but it was a most elusive attack. The Imperial Priest could only vaguely see a leg, it was there but it was not. It was improbable that he [GWM] could avoid this kick. Bamm, he [GWM] suffered a heavy kick >>> at his chest he coughed up blood and fell.

--- YG's SadPalms is now "more effective" (ie. percent-to-hit or percent-to-attack increased, and not percentagePower increased) after refinding/(myInterpretation: confronting/acknowledging) his sadness. YG's SadPalms is also not a surprise attack as GWM took the palms head-on.
.
.
.
EDITTED: 6Days appropriately compared this to XLN/YG's realization regarding the "essence" of JadeMaidenSwordplay, and likewise both SadPalms and JadeMaidenSwordplay involves the heart. JadeMaiden=love/closeness and SadPalms=separation/anguish/sadness; Duality? And the true power of both is realized only in the right state-of-mind.
.
[SideComment: I finally see why ROCH83 decided to use XLN+YG vs. GWM at the end, the intertwining techniques of love+separation versus the monster_"dragon-elephant" is just very symbolic.]
.
.
.
Conclusion (I frankly do crappy conclusions):
1. YG's one-hand is no handicap.
2. YG can handle L/R technique.
3. YG's SadPalms equals HL18Z.
4. Some will say SadPalms cannot work for YG "all" the time, but remember that YG is a "hero" (got hero's luck and stuff) and he represents "human potential" like all heroes.
5. GJ has transferred innerPower to YG.
5. YG's defense is "flawless" (ZBT and GWM cannot harm him if he is not injured first)
6. YG can handle himself without SadPalms from GWM's fight.
So, YG=GJ.
.
.
.
Now let's do analysis of GJ if he (really) is equal of ZBT?