another YG and GJ thread

[superboy]

Originally posted by darkcser
Although wisdom might dictate otherwise, I feel an overwhelming itch to comment after reading Noodle's YG vs. ZBT fight.

Observations:

YG was having problems when ZBT starting using his L/R technique. However upon using his Sad Palms YG was able to match ZBT's L/R technique.

To fully resolve the fight when their techniques are matched would require a dangerous inner power struggle. YG declines because there's no reason for a life or death fight here.

ZBT continues to attack YG who just defends with a partial set of moves of Sad Palms and a mix of Quan Zhen and 9Yin (adding insult to injury). Eventually ZBT becomes tired, realizes that he can't prevail, and stops.

This seems to indicate that Sad Palms can match ZBT's L/R + 9Yin + QZ in terms of technique. btw: Is Vacant Fist QZ?

This seems to indicate that ZBT's inner is weaker than YG's -or at least it can't last as long. Guess black haired, QZ inner energy using ZBT still couldn't outlast YG.

Some of you might claim that offense expends more energy than defense but if ZBT couldn't prevail with an all-out-offense for an hour vs. YG who wasn't even using all of his Sad Palms...

Given the above it's rather difficult to say that ZBT>YG.

I'm extremely grateful that Noodles has translated these sections. It seems like much of the YG vs. GJ vs. ZBT debates are based on hearsay so seeing a passage like this is elucidating.

The YG vs. GJ debate might never be resolved since they never had a direct confrontation. The Law of Transitivity doesn't always hold for wu xia battles.

But I believe it was stated to be easier for YG to just defend right?

[sixdays]

good lord, anonymous has opened the floodgates once again. brace yourself, brother...the hordes are coming, and they're wearing "i heart GJ" t-shirts.

now, the analysis. anonymous says:

--- One big advantage is that fact that ZBT (and probably everyone in ROCH) cannot grasp the "essence" of SadPalms. Having a feel/comprehension for the moves is a step (I think) to overcoming it. [Still, ZBT "did" manage to "tie" with YG.]

thanks to noodles' translation, we now see that there are 17 stances of sadpalm, and YG only used 4. ZBT was able to block them, but he was not able to counterattack at all...this goes beyond mere surprise, as YG's tactics are truly ingenius and force ZBT back.

noodles says (speaking about a sadpalm stance called "out of nothing"):

Zhou could never predict a move such as this. In a flash, over ten different stances came at him at once. ‘Out of Nothing’ was ‘one’ stance but it contained tens of variations within. Even someone with martial arts as high as Zhou was forced on the back foot by it. In this situation, he couldn’t help but also use his right arm to fend off the attack. He had to use all his efforts to block this attack, counterattacking never came into the equation.

later on in the fight, YG only uses the same 4 sadpalm moves, as well as the little bit of 9yin (and the "a lot" bit of QZ kungfu) that he knows. at this point, ZBT uses every technique in his arsenal and YG not only defends, but defends without a problem. check this out:

If Yang Guo wanted to defeat Zhou Bo Tong, it would be no easy task but now that he’s just concentrating on defending, Zhou was not able to do anything to him. No matter what kind of dummies or tricks that Zhou tried, Yang Guo did not fall for any of them. He did not use any new stances of his Sad palms but he repeated the four stances of his Sad palms that he had previously used with different variations to agitate Zhou Bo Tong even more.

again, it's much more difficult to swing the momentum to attack then it is to defend your position, because in attacking a fighter always exposes a weakness. we see ZBT using everything he has, and YG defends admirably with one hand; however, previously when YG was on the offensive, ZBT was barely able to defend after 4 moves of the sadpalm. this sort of debunks the theory of "YG was only able to tie with ZBT after using sadpalm", doesn't it? this is what happened before YG started using sadpalms, but after ZBT starts using L/R hand technique:

Yang Guo was already at a disadvantage when it was one hand versus two, now it became even more so. Yang Guo was slightly alarmed and could only increase the power in his palms and used his sleeve to take some of the attacks.

Then Guo Xiang came in complaining about being unfair and all that etc., etc., Zhou thought she was right and thought it would also be fun to fight with one hand so he placed his right hand in his belt to fight. Yang Guo was slightly miffed when he saw Zhou do this because he felt it was looking down on him.

Anyway, some more chatting and then Yang Guo chopped out a left palm. Zhou replied with a left fist and didn't use his right arm.

Twenty stances passed. The yangness in Zhou's fist and palms gradually surfaced. Yang Guo noticed the changed and suddenly remembered the Demon Subduing Fist of the Nine Yin Manual in the tomb. Yang Guo shouted what about the 'Demon Subduing Fist'? Use two hands and take my 'An Ran Xiao Hun Zhang' (Yang Guo's sad palms. I'll think of a translation later).

"slightly alarmed" is a far cry from losing...if anything, even when ZBT is using his L/R technique here YG is defending without losing ground. true, he cannot attack, but what do you expect? that he use his best move to counteract ZBT's best move?

this is EXACTLY what he does when he follows up with sadpalms, and he forces ZBT back with only 4 moves. thereafter, like anonymous said YG's defense is flawless and ZBT cannot attack. since ZBT is getting fatigued, in a real fight, YG would win ZBT without too much effort.

i have some news for you, folks: the argument that "it's only age that holds ZBT back; his internal energy is greater and he's supposed to beat YG" is simply whack. who cares if you're "supposed" to win? ZBT is old, he doesn't have the stamina, and he will be beaten by YG, period. furthermore, we can see that YG's techniques are definitely not below ZBT's. one could argue that george foreman had more power in his prime than lennox lewis does now; but that means nothing because george foreman cannot fight anymore. i guess he could grill lennox lewis on his george foreman grill...

one more thing, and i'll get off the ZBT vs. YG topic. a lot of people like to quote this passage from the fight:

After those four stances, they both had great respect for each other. Yang Guo said something (this is to himself) about how Zhou was the strongest opponent his palms has ever met and if there was going to be a victor, an internal energy competition would be needed – something he was not prepared to do after what happened to Hong Qi Gong and Ou Yang Feng.

hm...the strongest opponent his palms ever met, eh? now let's look at athena's translation of the last fight between YG and GWM:

Yang Guo was stunned for a moment and then he realized, because he was feeling lost and hopless earlier and he unintentionally used the stance [Entangled by the web of love]. The heart is the most important factor of this style, it commands the arm, the arm commands the palm. That day Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy in the Hundred Flowers Vally, therefore he could not grasp the essence behind this style.

dude...ZBT didn't even feel the full essence of the sadpalms! even so, YG still shows that he's more than a match for ZBT using this "non-melancholy sadpalm".

at this point, YG > ZBT is clearly true. YG did "tie" with ZBT technically...but that was because YG himself didn't know the full power of sadpalms. i like what anonymous has been saying about returning to the origin as being the full essence of the martial arts; i agree completely. so we see in this fight that ZBT would not be YG's match.

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also, check this other quote about GWM:

At this moment Yang Guo using one arm had fought more than 200 stances with the Imperial Priest. Both of their martial arts are quite different from each other and the battle kept intensifying. The entire platform was overshadowed by the wheels and palm of these two. The smoke coming from the bottom of the platform also thickened and soon a black cloud covered the platform.
Although Yang Guo was not using a weapon he was not in a disadvantage, the Imperial Priest felt the platform was shaking lightly and knew that the fire had started to consume one of the pillars of the platform. It would only be a question of moments before the platform would collapse and then he, Yang Guo and Guo Xiang would all die together. Also he saw that the techniques of Yang Guo were very marvellous and feared that after another 100 stances or more he would be defeated by Yang Guo.

basically, YG defeats GWM in 300 stances WITHOUT sadpalms. with the proper essence of sadpalm, i'd be so bold as to say that that number would be cut in half, at least --- with athena's translation, we now know that it wasn't that GWM was simply surprise attacked by the sadpalm...it was that HE HAD NO WAY TO BLOCK IT.


by the way, i think we've all been underestimating GWM's martial arts prowess simply because of his weak mental state. in the fight against ZBT, HR, and 1deng, GWM is able to hold his own against all 3 at once --- even though he would eventually lose. how is this inferior to when GJ is fighting with the 3 mongolian warriors? let's do a comparison:

GWM 16 years ago would not be more powerful than either 1deng or ZBT...well, maybe 1deng but definitely not ZBT. next are the two other mongolian warriors --- the short indian one and the tall scary looking guy. both of these guys were a joke...i'd think that HR would equal one of them. 1deng would definitely be more than a match for the other. let's not even mention the fact that HYS comes later to kick some serious butt.

this means that the 3 opponents GWM faced in this fight were even MORE powerful than the ones GJ faced...which means that for sure, GWM 16 years later is stronger than GJ at the mongolian camp.

---

now, if YG can defeat this new, stronger GWM in less than 300 moves with sadpalm, that means he can defeat the 16-year ago GJ in about the same amount of moves as well.

do i really believe that GJ improved as much as everyone else over the 16 years? perhaps --- but if there's a favorite argument in the GJ vs. JY forums, it's that "speculation is useless. you gotta use the facts". and the fact is that JY simply did not mention GJ getting any stronger.

the only advantage for GJ would be a higher internal energy level than YG, and we don't even know by how much because both YG AND GWM's internal energy levels are already above what GJ used to be.

looks like there's a new element to the GJ vs. YG debate, folks...

[superboy]

YG's stance that wasn't able to be used because of his mood does not mean that his attacks were not max. It was only stated that that specific technique will need a feeling of lost, while it was not stated at all that it hindered any of the palms that he used on ZBT. Although I will agree that if the fight last too long, YG would probably win with better stamina, but we are not certain if the fight will last that long. YG was able to almost overwhelm GLFW with only the stances with no essense at all, but even with the essense and movements, ZBT is still ablt to block them all with not much trouble. So he might be possibly a bit better than GLFW.

[sixdays]

*ahem*...superboy...

Yang Guo was stunned for a moment and then he realized, because he was feeling lost and hopless earlier and he unintentionally used the stance [Entangled by the web of love]. The heart is the most important factor of this style, it commands the arm, the arm commands the palm. That day Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy in the Hundred Flowers Vally, therefore he could not grasp the essence behind this style.

That day Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy in the Hundred Flowers Vally, therefore he could not grasp the essence behind this style.

Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy

THEREFORE HE COULD NOT GRASP THE ESSENCE.

YG DID NOT USE THE TRUE ESSENCE OF SADPALMS THEN.

BECAUSE HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW YET.

(did all that yelling beat this fact into your mind yet?)

---

aka, the sadpalms that YG used against GWM were completely different than the ones he used against ZBT..

yet they were not different simply because they were different MOVES. remember, ZBT recognized the first of the moves YG used, proving that YG was using a move ZBT had seen before. yet, YG shows a whole different power level.

superboy...the sadpalms that YG used against GWM were simply in a better class than what he used against ZBT.

yeesh...



superboy says:

YG was able to almost overwhelm GLFW with only the stances with no essense at all, but even with the essense and movements, ZBT is still ablt to block them all with not much trouble. So he might be possibly a bit better than GLFW.

again, i must clear my throat...*ahem*...and have you read this excerpt from athena's translation of the last fight:

Whenever Yang Guo was faced with a great, powerful adversary he would use his melancholic sad palms to defeat his opponent. This style was linked to his state of being, when he was reunited with Xiao Longnu his heart was filled with bliss and happiness. There was not a trace of melancholy or sadness anymore, he was now faced with a dire situation and was using this very style. But somehow the flair of melancholy and longing was gone, every move, stance he made was the same as in the past but the power of it was greatly diminished.

and then a little later:

Yang Guo knew it was in vain, he could not rescue Guo Xiang he, himself, would likely die here as well. He tragically looked at Xiao Longnu and said:"Long'er, farewell, farewell. Take good care of yourself." At this moment Imperial Priest Jinlun used his iron wheel to advance forward, wanting to strike Yang Guo on the skull. Yang Guo had given up all hope, he casually whisked his sleeve and struck out his palm, bamm this palm of his struck Imperial Priest Jinlun directly on the shoulder. (this is the first of YG's real sadpalm assault)

i understand now that YG was clearly going to lose at this point, because he was injured badly on his leg and his arm. the sadpalms he used when he was injured was useless, and these sadpalms were not what dominated GWM --- rather, it was his other wave training kungfu that YG used while he was healthy, that pushed hard on JLGS when they were fighting together. if YG had used his sadpalm at the beginning of the fight, he probably would have died at the hands of JLGS because he didn't remember the sad feeling after getting together with XLN.

*sigh*...at first when i said that sadpalms didn't need sadness to work, you tried to say that it needed sadness and pointed to the fight against ZBT. now when i talk about the fight against GWM, you say that he's the same level because YG used a sadpalm with no sadness against GWM...so which is it? can YG use a sadpalm even if he isn't sad?

pick a side, man.

GJ FANS HAVE BULLIED US TOO LONG --- IT'S TIME FOR YG FANS TO STAND UP FOR THEIR RIGHTS, AND THEIR HERO!

hahah

[duguxiaojing]

what do u mean by mere style SB? u mean not with his inner power? GWM was shocked by the level YG inner power had reached the strange moves (i believe it was sad palms he was using u guys might disagree) were just another factor in it what do u mean exactly by mere style? every palm he threw contained mass amounts of his inner power he could not hold anything back against GWM elephant dragon (whats dexerity mean?) technique. Guys i have to ask this again doesnt the way Yg use the palms against ZBTand WYS seem diffrent from when he was using it at the end against GWM didnt it seem like it was a compeltely diffrent level? thats why ive alwasys said that YG does not need "powered up or highest level "of sad palms to match DP. Im not trying to turn this into a whose greater YG or GJ debate but if a weaker GWM could match a weaker GJ palm to palm why does it seem so hard 2 belive YG has to reach a level he may never reach again at the end of ROCH to MERELY MATCH GJ.dosent make sense personally i think if he threw out a palm from no name tech powered by his inner power he would be able to MATCH GJ.

Now time to jump on GJ bandwagon, no one can clearly say that YG can defeat GJ at the end of ROCH there is no proof. We know his inner power is around YG's but what about technique? we dont know where GJ stands at the end of ROCH he could be far above greats or below. ZBT stated that GJ was greater then himself but u know he's not all there at times. Anyone wanna aruge with that give me proof that shows what level GJ is at.

[duguxiaojing]

ITs true 6D YG fans seemed 2 be black listed and Sh!t upon. U know the funy thing is i started reading ROCH so i could get some dirt to throw on YG but i ended up liking him by end of novel. Im still a GJ fan though maybe u will like him 2 if u read up on him. dont let YG haters make u hate GJ

[Anonymous]

More comment regarding the "inconsistency" of SadPalms vs. HL18Z:
YG earned his SadPalms. Each step of YG's journey is an enlightenment and growth. He created SadPalms but he only earned it (it's essence of Sadness) after he lost it (finally seeing the value of "sadness") and then regaining it. It's like Eve eating the fruit of Knowledge; she cannot ignore/deny it but live with it. But the true question is: Do you "believe" in YG?
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6Days: That day Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy in the Hundred Flowers Vally, therefore he could not grasp the essence behind this style.
Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy
THEREFORE HE COULD NOT GRASP THE ESSENCE.
YG DID NOT USE THE TRUE ESSENCE OF SADPALMS THEN.
BECAUSE HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW YET.
--- Actually, the novel states that ZBT had no trouble defending the SadPalms that YG used: meaning ZBT's defense is also "flawless." Remember, this is ZBT's first time against SadPalms just as it is YG's first time to take VacantFist, L/R technique, and a bit of 9Yin. The essence is this: "Yang Guo was impressed that Zhou was able to block all these profound sudden attacks." YG also blocked all ZBT's attacks.
--- As for ZBT not grasping the essence, it's only from YG "teaching" ZBT. It could be that SadPalms is "not suited" to ZBT.
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I'll do replies next time. [This post jumped out at me. ]

[Athena]

I hate to intervene here, but the part about Zhou Botong and grasping the Melancholic Sad Palms was about something else. Zhou Botong saw the style and wanted to learn those palms, Yang Guo's said no problem, but.....he had to see Yinggu first. Anyhow after some persuasion, Yang Guo displayed the style to Zhou Botong. But he saw the stances and could name the origins of some stances but he did not understand the fundemental emotion behind this style.

[sixdays]

right...i take the point about ZBT not grasping the essence back, i must have read it out of context.

there IS something that confused me greatly, though. in the earlier fight with ZBT vs. GWM, GWM was definitely overbearing with his energy and the only way ZBT could cope was with vacant fist. sure, ZBT was able to render the GWM's fighting style useless, but for how long?

i've noticed that in both the fight of ZBT vs. YG and ZBT vs. GWM, ZBT's opponents both possessed very overbearing yang style techniques. if YG was able to wear ZBT down after about 2 hours tops, do you think that GWM would also be able to? the fight gives me the impression that GWM is actually a better fighter than ZBT, and almost certainly a better fighter than 1deng.

so what is it...

is imperial priest jinlun more powerful than ZBT?

[Dirt]

The impression I got was that JLGS was equal to YD but JLGS had the advantage of age; YD was beginning to overexert himself. Can't blame him, he must be over 90 by the time he fought with JLGS.

[superboy]

Originally posted by sixdays
right...i take the point about ZBT not grasping the essence back, i must have read it out of context.

there IS something that confused me greatly, though. in the earlier fight with ZBT vs. GWM, GWM was definitely overbearing with his energy and the only way ZBT could cope was with vacant fist. sure, ZBT was able to render the GWM's fighting style useless, but for how long?

i've noticed that in both the fight of ZBT vs. YG and ZBT vs. GWM, ZBT's opponents both possessed very overbearing yang style techniques. if YG was able to wear ZBT down after about 2 hours tops, do you think that GWM would also be able to? the fight gives me the impression that GWM is actually a better fighter than ZBT, and almost certainly a better fighter than 1deng.

so what is it...

is imperial priest jinlun more powerful than ZBT?

I don't think GLFW is neccesary a better fighter than ZBT. YG also was said to have a more aggresive internal energy than ZBT due to the current training, so ZBT did use the vacant fist too. GLFW was a lot more powerful in strength, but the Cacant fist might not neccesary lose since it was said to be the softest style in the world, and can take on quite a lot of power . In fact, we can also ask, how ling is GLFW going to last using so much power in his attacks? GLFW was aos described before to have much more strength than GJ before the 16 years, yet, their martial arts were also said to be seperated by only a very small gap.

aka, the sadpalms that YG used against GWM were completely different than the ones he used against ZBT..

yet they were not different simply because they were different MOVES. remember, ZBT recognized the first of the moves YG used, proving that YG was using a move ZBT had seen before. yet, YG shows a whole different power level.

superboy...the sadpalms that YG used against GWM were simply in a better class than what he used against ZBT.

I do not believe that it was ever said to be a better class. It was just said that that stance that YG used needs the emotion of lost, but his otehr stances were not described to need so. Can you explain how are they different?

[Anonymous]

6Day: do i really believe that GJ improved as much as everyone else over the 16 years? perhaps --- but if there's a favorite argument in the GJ vs. JY forums, it's that "speculation is useless. you gotta use the facts". and the fact is that JY simply did not mention GJ getting any stronger.
--- Recall at the beginning of ROCH that GWM impresses us as a "great" status villain (better than KauCheenYan for sure), and he was lv9 that time. Now recall that HYS prior 16 years didnt do any "chi-pellets" (which he used in his battle w/ YG) 16 years later. Even though JY didnt mention how HYS/1Deng/ZBT improved, they did manage to take GWM (now lv10) attacks. So, they somehow improved, thus we can say GJ also improved but at what rate? (since he got 9Yin)
--- The strange part is that 10 years of 9Yin [before ROCH] in PeachBlossom Island and GJ vs. OYF battle isnt that impressive. [We need to compare this battle with how GWM vs. KauCheenYan, and see which battle is more impressive].
--- It's strange that YG at beginning of ROCH is 14 years and GJ/WY only practiced 10 years worth of 9Yin and stuff in PeachBlossum Island:

Ever since Huang Rong had made him mad at the second Mount Hua tournament, these last ten years he [OYF] has travelled to the edge of the world and always asked one question, "Who am I?"
[...]
At the time, Huang Rong was fighting with her palms, the palms like a flying dance. It has been ten years since she [HR] has seen her old enemy [OYF], and right now they were fighting ferociously.
[...]
He [GJ] had practised this particular stance night and day without a break, when he first learnt the stance its power was obvious, but after ten years off practising, it was now at a flawless level.
[...]
The two [GJ and OYF] haven't exchanged moves for over ten years, now they meet again in Jiang Nan, they must test each other to see how they have advanced over the years.
[...]

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Super: YG was able to almost overwhelm GLFW with only the stances with no essense at all, but even with the essense and movements, ZBT is still ablt to block them all with not much trouble. So he might be possibly a bit better than GLFW.
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duguX: Guys i have to ask this again doesnt the way Yg use the palms against ZBTand WYS seem diffrent from when he was using it at the end against GWM didnt it seem like it was a compeltely diffrent level?
(Answer is same)
--- That's one of the mysteries. ZBT only managed to tie (using VacantFist and he cannot even attack) with GWMlv10 at PassionlessValley; however, he didnt use L/R technique. However, GWM did thought while running away that they need "hundreds of stances" to determine the winner (GWM vs. ZBT). ZBT may trump GWM with L/R technique; however, with GWM's forcefulAttacks and recall how he uses his "sense of hearing" in battle against YG?
--- It "could" mean [and my theories point to this direction] that YG did improve a slight notch during his battle with GWM. It could be "literally" that GWM took YG where no one has taken him before (to the brink of death) and taught YG a valuable lesson.
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duguX: thats why ive alwasys said that YG does not need "powered up or highest level "of sad palms to match DP [HL18Z].
--- Agreed. (GJ's HL18Z)=GWM'sAttack=VacantFist=(YG'sSeaPalms) and HYS said SadPalms=(GJ's HL18Z), so they are all equal. Confusing but appears true.
--- Then SadPalms=(SeaPalms). Let me explain. Recall SeaPalms=VacantFist (ZBT vs YG first round). Then ZBT encountered GWM'sAttack and thought the attack was the most powerful. Then SeaPalms=GWM'sAttack. I could only explain it: SeaPalms does Newton's 3rd Law (higherPower demands a higherReaction).
--- The only explaination about SadPalms is that it's SeaPalms' "JadeMaidenSwordplay" version. So, HYS's statement that SadPalms=(GJ's HL18Z) is true.
--- (repost) 6Days appropriately compared this to XLN/YG's realization regarding the "essence" of JadeMaidenSwordplay, and likewise both SadPalms and JadeMaidenSwordplay involves the heart. JadeMaiden=love/closeness and SadPalms=separation/anguish/sadness; Duality? And the true power of both is realized only in the right state-of-mind.
[SideComment: I finally see why ROCH83 decided to use XLN+YG vs. GWM at the end, the intertwining techniques of love+separation versus the monster_"dragon-elephant" is just very symbolic.]
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duguX: Im not trying to turn this into a whose greater YG or GJ debate but if a weaker GWM could match a weaker GJ palm to palm why does it seem so hard 2 belive YG has to reach a level he may never reach again at the end of ROCH to MERELY MATCH GJ.
--- Cuz JY didnt specify GJ used HL18Z on GWMlv9 (or that GWM used lv9 stuff on GJ). An uncertainty. It's a regular palm clash. However, (GJ's HL18Z)=GWM'sAttack=VacantFist=(YG'sSeaPalms) and HYS said SadPalms=(GJ's HL18Z), so they are all equal. Confusing but appears true.
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duguX: ZBT stated that GJ was greater then himself but u know he's not all there at times.
--- Can you clarify on this? when did ZBT mention this? Any translators want to clarify?

[Anonymous]

YG's SadPalm is similar to "Overcoming the Dragon with Regret":

Noo: He [YG] accumulated his energy in his public region and increased energy to his palms. That way Xiaoxiang Zi, Yin Kexi and the black-faced warrior were pushed to Huang Yaoshi faster and faster.
After returning a few palms Huang Yaoshi felt that the three men [powered by YG]came crashing towards him like tidal waves, the second wave fiercer than the first wave.
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‘Overcoming the Dragon with Regret' (Kang Long You Hui). [...] When he [GJ] first unleashed it, it looked light and fragile but when it meets an obstruction, it will be able to unleash its force in thirteen levels, the next level stronger than the last one, it will yield the unyielding, no force it can't overcome. [...] Guo Jing's palm strength [using HL18Z] increased, the next level higher than the last, like a torrential waves throwing itself forwards. Ou Yang Feng made two ‘Ka Ka' noises, his body getting lower, as if he was going to fall down any minute. Guo Jing's palms were getting stronger, his [OYF] counteracting strength also increased.

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1. DivineFingerFlick counters (actually, it "neutralizes") SadPalms power, just like ZBT's VacantFist. JY states FlickingFinger and SadPalms are "evenly matched."
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2. Note DivineFingerFlick is "a light and delicate energy" and compare this to GJ's [9Yin] HL18Z ("it looked light and fragile"). Also this energy-like pellet is similar to JMZ's energy-pellet (in DGSD: Shaolin). [Aside: Meaning XF's innerPower may equal GJ's.]
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3. Unfortunate HYS and YG didnt go head-to-head (but using people in betw), cuz the "succession of energy-pellets" only hits and faints the three Mongolian champions. Is this "succession of energy-pellets" the same energy level as that "one pellet" which neutralized YG's SadPalms? [Aside: Is HYS neutralizing the three Mongolian champions more impressive than DFBB's fight in SOD?]

Noo: Only after displaying half of his Melancholic Sad Palms, the Changing Peach and Descending Flower Palms of Huang Yaoshi was paling in comparison now. When he saw that Yin Kexi was soaring towards him and he figured that his palm energy was not able to resist that palm. He flicked his finger and a soft splang sound could be heard, a light and delicate energy burst out and countered the energy blast of Yang Guo. He flicked his finger three times and three shots of splangs could be heard, Xiaoxiang Zi, Yin Kexi and the black-faced warrior had fallen on the floor and fainted. His Divine Finger Flick and the Melancholic Sad Palms of Yang Guo were evenly well-matched. No one was either the winner or the loser.

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HYS "specifically" compares YG's SadPalms to GJ's 9Yin_HL18Z. [Aside: I think HYS keeps in touch with GJ/HR from afar (ie. overseeing but not meeting them). Could be the phrase "in the entire realm," which refer his wanderings.]

Noo: Huang Yaoshi said:"Young brother Yang, the power of your new created palm stances are very forceful. In the entire realm only the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms of my son-in-law, Guo Jing can be compared to it. My Changing Peach and Descending Flower Palms is one level inferior."

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Thx Noodles for the translation regarding HYS vs. YG.

[Noodles]

Originally posted by Anonymous

Thx Noodles for the translation regarding HYS vs. YG.

You've thanked the wrong person, you should be thanking the lovely Athena for translating this excerpt regarding HYS and YG.

I should be thanking her too, cos now I don't have to do it Thx Athena!

[duguxiaojing]

actaully annoynomous during the heoes banquet GJ used Fa long ji tian (flying dragon in sky)and collided palm to palm against GWM i think in this stance he uses both palms. It had to be quite powerful since GWM seemed to fear GJ after that.
I belive ZBT said gj was superior at the end of novel at mount wah.

Superboy i think stances were the same but the way they are described make them sound even more powerful. The way GWM just could not defend also YG seems to be fighting in another state of mind at times not aware and casuaully throws out a palm or sleeve yet is still able to injure GWM. u could argue that golden wheel monk was unprepared since he was about to win but it was just the first stance whcih shocked GWM when GWM attacked back how open could he have left him self? his a top top top level martial artist and still i did not mention that in novel it just said YG avoided attack and then attacked him with thre stances and a boot which GWM could not see let alone dodge.

[superboy]

But I don't really felt that the description made the palms seems more powerful than the ones that YG used earlier, at least the power were never said to be any better. And if the stances were the same, and YG did gone all out in his competition with ZBT, I don't think that it will be consistent that it is stronger.

[Anonymous]

Thx Athena for the HYS vs. YG translation. Got tired and messed up.
Thx Noodles for correcting me: I did a double-check.
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Other theories regarding the supposed "enhanced" SadPalms:
1. Recall GJ perfected one (or maybe all) of his HL18Z during his 10year training in Peach Blossum Island. It could be that YG finally perfected his SadPalms (perfected his access to "sadness"?) during his battle with GWM.
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2. The "unintentional" use of SadPalms seems similar to Shi Po Tian?

He tragically looked at Xiao Longnu and said:"Long'er, farewell, farewell. Take good care of yourself." At this moment Imperial Priest Jinlun used his iron wheel to advance forward, wanting to strike Yang Guo on the skull. Yang Guo had given up all hope, he casually whisked his sleeve and struck out his palm, bamm this palm of his struck Imperial Priest Jinlun directly on the shoulder. [...]
Yang Guo was stunned for a moment and then he realized, because he was feeling lost and hopeless earlier and he unintentionally used the stance [Entangled by the web of love]. The heart is the most important factor of this style, it commands the arm, the arm commands the palm. [...]
It was when Yang Guo was faced with death and parting with Xiao Longnu the sorrow and melancholy came back again. The power of the Melancholic Sad Palms was revived once again.

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3. The Realistic Theory (using parts of contributers but I still believe in my other theories ): Recall GWM battled (going offensive) on ZBT to a standstill with VacantFist, but ZBT "didnt" use L/R technique. Also recall YG battled (going offensive) on GWM (who is also going offensive) and YG was winning, but YG "didnt" use SadPalms. If YG use SadPalms in sadness, then GWM is beaten for sure but it probably take half of 200 stances. But for YG to defeat GWM as he did, the key is his style: "The heart is the most important factor of this style, it commands the arm, the arm commands the palm." YG didnt access through his "brain" like usual martial artists this time around but with his "heart," so YG reacted "faster"/"first" and thus, "hit" first (ie. faster reaction time and "first strike"). Hence, the speed of YG's attack in the phrase: "suddenly he [GWM] was hit on the shoulder" and "it was a most elusive attack [kick]."
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The question now is how did YG "really" revived his "sadness"?

Yang Guo had given up all hope, he casually whisked his sleeve and struck out his palm, bamm this palm of his struck Imperial Priest Jinlun directly on the shoulder.
Zhou Botong who was standing at the ground shouted:"Good! One impressive "Entangled by the web of love"."
Yang Guo was stunned for a moment and then he realized, because he was feeling lost and hopless earlier and he unintentionally used the stance [Entangled by the web of love]. The heart is the most important factor of this style, it commands the arm, the arm commands the palm. That day Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy in the Hundred Flowers Vally, therefore he could not grasp the essence behind this style.
When Yang Guo was reunited with Xiao Longnu again, this style lost its' essence. It was when Yang Guo was faced with death and parting with Xiao Longnu the sorrow and melancholy came back again. The power of the Melancholic Sad Palms was revived once again.
Imperial Priest Jinlun was about to be victorious, suddenly he was hit on the shoulder. His chest hurt a lot and he was shaking, he was furious and surprised and attacked instantly again.
Yang Guo backed away and retaliated with [In A State Of Disunity], [Irrational Direction], [The Settled Cessation] and there was another technique falling these three attacks, namely [The Meaningless Wanderer]. This stance was a kick, but it was a most elusive attack. The Imperial Priest could only vaguely see a leg, it was there but it was not. It was improbable that he [GWM]could avoid this kick. Bamm, he suffered a heavy kick at his chest he coughed up blood and fell.

[Anonymous]

Even though GJ practiced 9Yin and HL18Z in Peach Blossom Island for 10years, his battle with OYF is a "tie": [A gist of the battle, with "bold+italic"=mostImportant, "bold"=significant, and "italic"=irrelevant (usually neutralized or the enemy can cope) ]
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1. It's interesting HR's techniques (and maybe a little innerPower) could "tie" with OYF. But 16 years later with HR using Dog-beatingStick, GWMlv10 could "break" the stick. However, recall YingGu's techniques also "dodged" GWMlv10.
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2. HR's 10 years also increased her innerPower (I suspect 9Yin; she did the 9Yin manual of HSDS). Even though GJ didnt clash with any "greats" 16 years later, we could glimpse it through HR, who did. Did HR improved during the 16 years?
--- Who's better prior the 16 years: YG w/IronSword or HR (w/ or w/o DogStick)? YG (w/IronSword) can beat Gongsun/(MadameGongsun)/KauCheenYan.

on the rooftop Ke Zhen E was fighting barehanded with someone, the enemy was tall and had long hands, it Ou Yang Feng. Guo Jing swallowed, frightened that Ou Yang Feng would take his master's life in one move and he jumped up onto the roof to help. Only to hear Ke Zhen E shout out and fall off the roof.
[...]
At the time, Huang Rong was fighting with her palms, the palms like a flying dance. It has been ten years since she has seen her old enemy, and right now they were fighting ferociously. Her [HR's] internal energy has improved tremendously over the last few [10?] years, her internal energy is now very forceful, the palms she [HR] were using were changing mysteriously and cleverly; after ten moves, Ou Yang Feng didn't gain any advantage.
Guo Jing called out, "Mr Ou Yang, how have you been."
[...]
Ou Yang Feng listened, "I'm called Zhao Qian Sun Li, Zhou Wu Chen Wang?"
Huang Rong replied, "Correct, your nickname is Zuo Feng Cheng Chu Wei, Jiang Shen Han Yang." Huang Rong had randomly picked out some surnames. Ou Yang Feng was originally confused but after hearing her call him many names,
[...]
Ke Zhen E smashed down his iron walking stick on Ou Yang Feng's back but he didn't move, he made a strange noise and the walking stick fiercely came back out at Ke Zhen E. Ke Zhen E couldn't hold on, and let go of his walking stick and fell into the courtyard.
[...]

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1. Where in LOCH/ROCH "specifically" state that 9Yin "conserves" energy on martial art moves? Here "light and fragile" could mean just "soft" and not "hard." This ROCHversion2 states that H7G modified the "stances" (ie technique) of HL18Z; GJ further added 9Yin "mysterious energy behind it."
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2. Even with this "mysterious energy," GJ's "soft" wave after more powerful wave of HL18Z were "counteracted" by the increasing resistance of OYF. They "tie."
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3. Note: throughout GJ's battle with OYF, GJ "didnt" use L/R technique.
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4. GJ practiced 10 years of HL18Z (OvercomingTheDragonWithRegrets) to a "flawless level," meaning GJ's technique may not get any better. And this still "ties" with OYF. Meaning, GJ of 16years later (after this) probably only improve in innerPower. This is the same with YG's goal during 16years (actually 7 out of 16): to increase innerPower.

"Watch out!" His [GJ] left leg bent, his right palmed circled, and then pushed out; it was the Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms' ‘Overcoming the Dragon with Regret' (Kang Long You Hui). He had practised this particular stance night and day without a break, when he first learnt the stance its power was obvious, but after ten years off practising, it was now at a flawless level. When he [GJ]first unleashed it [HL18Z], it looked light and fragile but when it meets an obstruction, it will be able to unleash its force in thirteen levels, the next level stronger than the last one, it will yield the unyielding, no force it can't overcome. He had incorporated ideas in the Nine Ying manual into the palms and modified them, like Hung Qi Gong had modified the palms years ago, although it was only the stances and not the mysterious energy behind it.
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Ou Yang Feng had just knocked Ke Zhen E off the roof when he suddenly felt a gust of wind throwing itself at him, although the wind [GJ's HL18Z] wasn't strong, it caused his breathing to be uneven, and knew it wasn't something ordinary so quickly crouched down and pushed out his two palms, it was his most refined skill ‘Toad Stance'. They exchanged three palms, both of them were hit once. Guo Jing's palm strength increased, the next level higher than the last, like a torrential waves throwing itself forwards. Ou Yang Feng made two ‘Ka Ka' noises, his body getting lower, as if he was going to fall down any minute. Guo Jing's palms were getting stronger, his [OYF's] counteracting strength also increased.

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Another OYF vs. GJ "tie," though GJ is losing cuz he is trying to protect bystanders.

Long ago at the Mount Hua tournament, Guo Jing couldn't match Ou Yang Feng, but ever since he has refined his internal energy, his skills have vastly improved. Ou Yang Feng has been practising the ‘Contrary Nine Ying' manual and got what he deserved. However, one phrase real and one phrase fake, eventually he produced a learnable copy from the fake and up until now, Guo Jing was fighting him to a draw, unable to distinguish who has the upper hand. Huang Rong wanted her husband to win by himself so stood to one side and didn't interfere.
[...]
Guo Jing and Ou Yang Feng were matching internal energy through their palms, and braced their legs, and after a moment, the sound of something creaking was heard below their feet, with one sound followed by another, the beams of the roof snapped, a hole was made in the roof as the two of them fell in. [...]
Guo Jing didn't want to hurt any innocent bystanders and so didn't use his legs for support, but Ou Yang Feng didn't care if anyone dies because of them. The two of them were equally matched but because Guo Jing didn't use the beams as support, his palms had no foundation to rely on and so was on his way to losing.
He used one hand to push against Ou Yang Feng's two palms, he channelled all his strength in his right hand, his left hand was empty, there was no strength for it to use. Huang Rong saw her husband was being pushed backwards, although it was only half an inch or so, he was losing.

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1. Despite his palm injury from NeedleArmor and distraction from HY, OYF was still able to "tie" with GJ (who previously is losing from helping bystanders).
2. Both GJ and OYF hit and injured each other "on the same spot" (the shoulder).

he channelled all his strength in his right hand, his left hand was empty, there was no strength for it to use. Huang Rong saw her husband was being pushed backwards, although it was only half an inch or so, he was losing. She [HR] shouted, "Hey, Zhang San Li Si, Hu Tu Wang Ba, watch out," and aimed a light palm on Ou Yang Feng's shoulder. Though this palm was light, it was from the ‘Descending Brave Divine Sword Palm' (Luo Ying Shen Jian Zhang) skill, when it lands, the internal energy will spread through the internal organs. Though Ou Yang Feng is one of the most powerful martial artists within his time, he would still suffer under this [HR's DivineSwordPalm] blow. Ou Yang Feng heard her call out weird surnames at him and was distracted for a second. As he saw the palm come in, he pushed his two palms, forcing Guo Jing back another inch, and in a flash he held onto Huang Rong's shoulder, his five fingers like an hook, trying to tear a piece of her flesh off. When this move came out, the three of them swallowed simultaneously. Ou Yang Feng felt severe pain in his fingers; she [HR] was wearing soft armour with needles, he couldn't loosen his hand. At this time, Guo Jing's palm's power increased again, and Ou Yang Feng pushed out a palm to counteract this, in the midst of this danger he used all his strength. After a clashing sound, the both of them moved back, the room full of dust and dirt as the walls collapsed.
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When the two clashed palms, it was under the shroud of night and the both of them could not see each other clearly, the large force of the ‘Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms' and the ‘Toad' stance hit each other in the shoulders. The two of them were sent through opposite walls; half of the roof fell in. Huang had suffered a blow but she wasn't hurt although she had a fright and made her flush, in the midst of all this she flew out of the room before the roof collapsed. She saw Guo Jing and Ou Yang Feng five feet apart motionless, the both of them had suffered internal injuries. Huang Rong didn't attack the enemy and instead just walked over by her husband's side to guard him. The both of them shut the their eyes to try to control their chi, but after two stuttering noises both of them spat out a mouthful of blood.
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Ou Yang Feng said, "The ‘Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms', good stuff, good stuff!" A mad laugh followed as he ran away, in a blink of an eye he was nowhere to be seen.

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1. GJ and OYF suffered "similar" injuries
2. GJ recovered (as in "recoveryRate") faster due "young age" and "abundant amount of rich internal energy over the years." However, let's ignore the "abundant amount" cuz OYF also has "abundant" innerPower (especially being older; I'm not saying OYF has higher innerEnergy). So, GJ has just a "richer" energy and probably from 9Yin and recall 9Yin methods heal stuff faster. However, this faster healing is useless in "real-time" battle.
GJ=OYF doesnt change.
3. OYF had to escape to the Monastery, hunted and injured by GJ's old teacher. Thus, delaying his healing.

Guo Jing understood, but because of the injury caused by Ou Yang Feng, he couldn't speak. He breathed evenly while on Ke Zhen E's back, circulating his energy to unravel his veins, after they had travel about seven, eight miles, his veins had all been cleared and said, "Master, I'm okay." He put Guo Jing down and said, "You've recovered?"
Guo Jing shook his head and said, "Toad stance is a great skill!"
[...]
The sky was beginning to brighten, and under the moon they recognised a house by the forest. Guo Jing said, "My injury is not serious, we'll [HR+GJ+BlindGy] go find him [OYF] together." --- I think GJ lied here, proof later.
[...]
Yang Guo checked his bearings, and headed southwest, and in seven, eight miles, he had reached the Iron Spear monastery. He pushed open the doors and called out, "Father, I'm here!" He heard a noise coming in from within. It was Ou Yang Feng.
[...]
He lit it and saw Ou Yang Feng reclining on top of some statues, his body unwell, his breathing weak. He and Guo Jing have suffered similar injuries, but because Guo Jing has amassed an abundant amount of rich internal energy over the years, he is able to recover very rapidly; Ou Yang Feng is closer to old age, his energy isn't as good.
[...]
Eventually both Ou Yang Feng and Guo Jing had suffered injuries, and so Ou Yang Feng escaped. In the chaos, everyone forgot about Yang Guo, and he sneaked away after Ou Yang Feng. At first Ou Yang Feng was moving at a fast pace [from his battle with GJ], Yang Guo could not catch up, but Ou Yang Feng's injury was agitated, moving was hard. Yang Go eventually caught up and took him by the side to rest. Yang Guo knew that if he didn't return Huang Rong and Ke Zhen E would come and look for him, and feared his stepfather's life would be in danger. So he arranged with Ou Yang Feng to meet in the Iron Spear monastery. [...] Yang Guo took out seven, eight buns out of his bag and handed it over to Ou Yang Feng, "Father, eat something." Ou Yang Feng had nothing to eat for the whole day, he was frightened he would meet one of his enemies,
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Ou Yang Feng said, "The one named Guo suffered from one of my palms, it would be difficult for him to recover within seven days. His wife will have to look after him, she won't leave his side, I'm just worried about that Ke old man. If he won't come tonight, he will be here tomorrow. It's a pity I don't have an ounce of energy in me [cuz he had to fend HR+GJ ambush].
[...]
The other day, Ou Yang Feng just lightly pushed back and managed to force the iron walking stick out of his hand, and forced him to leap over, but today Ou Yang Feng's body is weak, he can't even use an ounce of his strength, he could only roll on the floor, trying to avoid the strikes. Ke Zhen E used the ‘Dropping the Demon' set of strokes, with each stance faster than the last. Ou Yang Feng was struggling to avoid the strokes, and eventually was hit by the ‘Concealed Medicine Poke' (Chu Fu Yao Cha) on the left shoulder.
[...]
Ou Yang Feng deserved what he was getting today, but his internal energy was deep, though he had no power to attack, he could still avoid and parry some attacks, only superficial [physical] injuries were apparent on him, his joints and his internal organs was still unharmed.
[...]
He then transferred his energy into his staff, and attacked his head. Ou Yang Feng moved his head and managed to avoid the attacks for a few times but all of a sudden, he [OYF] was trapped by the walking stick's wind, and he suffered a blow on the head. He managed to keep a hold of his life.
[...]
Ke Zhen E released his stick, and punched Ou Yang Feng with his right hand a few times. Ou Yang Feng was dazed, and waved the knife in the direction of the enemy. [...] Ou Yang Feng was concerned, although Guo Jing is hurt, if the ringing continues, Huang Rong would eventually come and help.
[...]
After he had suffered the serious injury, Ou Yang Feng had already found it was hard to move; though he has developed a profound level of internal energy in the last ten years, in this life-threatening situation he is unable to call upon it.
[...]
Ou Yang Feng shook his head again and said, "My injury is very serious, I won't be able to get far." He had escaped temporarily, but now he felt his bones were coming loose, he couldn't even move one step.
[...]
"I'll [OYF] be meditating under the bell for seven days. After my strength has returned, I will be able to escape. If the old man returns within these seven days, he doesn't have the ability to lift the bell up. If Huang Rong doesn't come, I doubt if there is anyone that can break through. If Huang Rong does come, then the plan may fail."
[...]
[The next day] Guo Jing was still injured and struggled to walk, and so it was Huang Rong who supported Ke Zhen E on the bed.

[duguxiaojing]

Who's better prior the 16 years: YG w/IronSword or HR (w/ or w/o DogStick)? YG (w/IronSword) can beat Gongsun/(MadameGongsun)/KauCheenYan.

YG would definitley win dog beating stick is tricky but isee no way of WY defending Iron sword. YG was able to fight toe to teo with GWM before it became an internal energy battle. The battle against "KaucheenYan" was cheap im not sure YG would of won had he fought fairly or at least not as easily KCY(older and proboaly stronger) did battle GWM(older and proboaly stronger) for over a day.

[duguxiaojing]

SB i dont see how u cannot see the diffrence in the way palms were described how much of a factor did GWM anger play in his defeat if any YG dodged GWM attack and in four stances defeated him. i mean he was able to level his battle with 1deng when put in a disadvantage. plus YG was hurt u said it yourself fighters at such a high level have to go all out in order to win. YG was hurt and on the verge of defeat yet he is able to gain victory how could a hurt YG be at the top of his game? There was a dramatic boost in power a hurt YG was able to turn a defeat into victory. could he have done this previously when he fought ZBT or WYS? he was fighting with everything he had right? and still could not gain upperhand what are his chances had he been hurt? u say it was not stated that YG palms were stronger.does it have 2 be? look at what his doing his moves are able make contact with GWM body which was something he was unbale to do against ZBT.I dont see how u can be such a hypocrite u say the novel doesnt have to state YG is sad when using palms against WYS,ZBT u just assume it but it DOES have to be stated that his palms are stronger when hes completely dominating an opponent whoes=ZBT,WYS. I have never seen in ROCH a battle where one oponent as strong as GWM could attack have his attack dodged yet is unable to defend because he was angry and left himself open GWM could barley even SEE the kick how was he suppose to defend it ????This was not like the other battles at all. Plus look at his mentality when fighting. I dont know what SPT was like but i think CC said he fought like "he was unaware of all awarness" could u translate that battle or atleast post it here PLEASE CC???i wanna see how it's described im a newb man i dont know jack bout SPT only that he rivals sweeper.

ZBT is still ablt to block them all with not much trouble

What do u mean by not much trouble? then i could say YG was able to to block all ZBT attacks"with not much trouble"as well it was a draw wasnt it? YG palms were agressive to the point where ZBT palm shook after colliding with YG. He proboally could use HMK to dissipate power but then he could take anyones attack with "with not much trouble" u make it sound like ZBT was taking YG palms easily. was he taking GWM attacks "with not much trouble" as well?