another YG and GJ thread

[Temujin]

Gosh, this debate is intensifying and I think no matter how far you go or whatever new grounds we throw into the equation, we will never reach an agreeable conclusion because GJ and YG never fought against each other.

But I just want to get some points across here.

1. Stronger does not equal better.

I have to throw in Xiao Feng into the equation. He's NOT stronger than Xu Zhu and Duan Yu (at the end of DGSD). Xu Zhu has the combined inner power of three most formidable XiaoYao Pai elders, while Duan Yu has all JMZ's inner power plus what he had before that. (Remember JMZ is about equal to XF). But at the end of DGSD, if they ever fight, I doubt either DY or XZ can defeat XF.

Thus I cannot assume (after reading YG vs. ZBT, YG vs. JLGS, and YG vs. HYS fights) that YG is better than GJ just because we feel he has more raw power than these fighters.

At the end of ROCH, GJ has more experience and as equally talented than YG

2. GJ has the ever-growing power of 9-Yin and QZ internal power cultivation. While YG, although the 16 years and the practice with waves give him amazingly powerful raw inner energy, his ultimate technique is still dependent with his emotional state (He needs to be sad or melancholic) and it has never stated anywhere in the novel that YG's inner power will continue to grow, while we know for sure GJ's will.

3. Although ZBT's offensive attacks against YG was in vain for an hour and left him frustrated at the end. The novel never clearly stated that YG could easily defeat him.

If Yang Guo wanted to defeat Zhou Bo Tong, it would be no easy task but now that he’s just concentrating on defending, Zhou was not able to do anything to him. No matter what kind of dummies or tricks that Zhou tried, Yang Guo did not fall for any of them. He did not use any new stances of his Sad palms but he repeated the four stances of his Sad palms that he had previously used with different variations to agitate Zhou Bo Tong even more.

The two fought for almost an hour. Zhou Bo Tong was an old man, his vigour has been depleted and his internal energy was no longer the same as it was at the start of the fight. He knew now it would be difficult to get Yang Guo to use a new palm from his ‘An Ren Xiao Hun Zhang’ so he leapt back and begged Yang Guo to take him as his disciple so he can teach him this palm skill. (Zhou is one funny guy).

Just because YG keeps on repeating four stances with different variations doesn't mean his other stances are better than ZBT's. ZBT lacks of vigority due his old age (which I think contradicts the QZ inner power cultivation principals, but I can't argue with JY).

One thing is for sure ZBT's inner power is not as long-lasting as YG, however, even if YG uses all of his sad palm techniques (other than the four stances he kept on using) there's no guarantees that it will be able to overcome ZBT.

Sometimes defending is a lot easier to do than being on a offensive. For one thing, YG have seen Vacant Fists before and elements of 9-Yin. So he must have some knowledge of ZBT's techniques, while YG's martial arts are something totally unorthodox and new to the Wulin world. Remember how OYF surprised HYS and H7Q with his reversed 9-Yin ?

4. HYS admitted that ...

Huang Yaoshi said:"Young brother Yang, the power of your new created palm stances are very forceful. In the entire realm only the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms of my son-in-law, Guo Jing can be compared to it. My Changing Peach and Descending Flower Palms is one level inferior."

He's only comparing it to his palms techniques and not his ultimate technique ... which is the Divine finger flicking technique, which was able to tie YG during their brief sparring.

5. 2 Arms vs. 1 arm argument

I think we can dismiss the constant argument about GJ having the advantage of 1 arm arguments now because I deducted the following :

- Sad Palms also consists the ability to use sleeve as another arm
- Sad Palm is a specialized technique for YG that maximized his potential as a disabled person, hence it's equally as dangerious and as explosive as other great techniques that requires 2 arms

So on this ground, we have to assume that they are both equally matched even with YG's disability (which was compensated by his newly invented technique).

6. At the end of ROCH, when YG fought with JGLS, he mentioned that ..

Just a moment ago the two of them exchanged one stance, Yang Guo felt that the palm energy of the Imperial Priest was solid, robust and strong, he had never encountered such power amongst his former adversaries.

Yet YG mentioned almost the same thing when he matched his palms against ZBT (but this was before he met JGLS at the end of ROCH)

After those four stances, they both had great respect for each other. Yang Guo said something (this is too himself) about how Zhou was the strongest opponent his palms has ever met and if there was going to be a victor, an internal energy competition would be needed

So what does it mean ?

Does it mean that ZBT is weaker than JGLS, because YG fought ZBT before he fought JGLS. Yet after 200 strokes later JGLS was afraid he would lose to YG. Many mentioned that this is due to his mentality (He is always afraid of losing his face and getting beaten by younger generation).

I found that there are many inconsistancies in this novel. But at end of the day, GJ and YG never did exchange blows even friendly ones, but even after 16 years passed, JGLS is still fearful of GJ. Obviously he senses how GJ martial arts skills (and internal power) progressed in 16 years. Yet, he was able to equal the Greats during their brief encounters with many disadvantages and unfair tactics (including the condors)...

And YG was also able to more or less equal the Greats, I have a feeling that YG can only beat any Greats with his enormous inner power but not techniques due to his younger age.

If any of the Greats is only equal to JGLS (arguable still because the fight was unfair) and JGLS' power is the strongest YG has ever met (at the end of ROCH after he fought ZBT) and YG was only able to defeat JGLS because of his shocking move which took JGLS by surprised and further discouraged his mental state (which was already doubtful due to his constant defeats by YG in the past with or without his tricks). YG was able to go all out with 3 unforeseen moves in a row, and a kick.

I really think the fight could take longer and the outcome could go either way if they were to fight fair and square without any distraction (Guo Xiang) with YG having the slight advantage of Sad Palms which would be activated if he's losing.

GJ is definitely younger than the remaining Greats and ZBT, hence his inner power will last longer and will only increased with age. However, if YG and GJ were to fight all out and go at it , I still think the outcome is determined heavily by the unstable nature of Sad Palms, YG's mental state and experience, which GJ seems to be more consistant and better than YG.

It could go either way really. But I would still put my money on GJ.

[LiarLiar]

I feel the need to disagree with TEMUJIN. First of all Xh Zhu and Daun Yu have little to no fighting experiences is the main reason XF will beat them. Especially in the case of Xu Zhu. Give him ten years time to perfect his techiques and fullingly use his inner energy and get more fighting experiences. XF will not beat him. Fighting experience can only get you so far. You act like YG has no fighting experience. When YG in his lifetime, had fought many battles. They (GJ and YG) are both experiences fighters. Experiences is not going to be a big different between them. GJ 16 years before is around equal to the inner energy of JGLS. In the 16 years, GJ continue training 9 yin and JGLS continue training the dragon and elephant techique to another level. It is not too much to say JGLS is around GJ inner energy even after 16 years. YG is around JGLS, so there is no big different. Of course YG cannot easily defeat ZBT, what do you take ZBT for? Do you think GJ can easily defeat ZBT? I don't think so. It will still take GJ a long time and difficult time for GJ to defeat ZBT. ZBT is a great defense martial artist. His vacant fists is designed to make hard techique useless. I think the continous grow of inner energy of GJ is meant as it will grow without training. YG in the 16 years is continously fighting and training his inner energy. Their inner energy is about equal as most people do agree. About the sad palms, I don't think YG realize the sad palms need sadness. He only realize it when he was about to die. If GJ and YG were going to fighting, wouldn't YG now know he needed to be sad to battle GJ. Than sad palm should be dependable in that situation. You have to try your hardest when battling the best. If YG now know he is at best when he is sad, wouldn't he try his hardest to recall sad thought to make sure he is not in a disadvantage.There is something I don't understand through when YG fought ZBT, why would he afaird of an inner energy contest, because I would agrue that contest will never happen. The only reason OYF and H7K had an inner energy battle was because OYF was crazy and disregarded his life. Nither ZBT or YG wanted to win that badly and risk dying. ZBT only wanted to test YG techique. YG only wanted ZBT to go with him. The only reason I can think of is YG really thought ZBT is crazy like his God-father. By the way, I'm more of a GJ fans, but now I see YG is equally impressive with all the translation done. Look at the way, YG train, you can't help be impressive. It seem like he is pushing himself to his limit just to get great martial arts. Great will-power.

[superboy]

SB i dont see how u cannot see the diffrence in the way palms were described how much of a factor did GWM anger play in his defeat if any YG dodged GWM attack and in four stances defeated him. i mean he was able to level his battle with 1deng when put in a disadvantage. plus YG was hurt u said it yourself fighters at such a high level have to go all out in order to win. YG was hurt and on the verge of defeat yet he is able to gain victory how could a hurt YG be at the top of his game? There was a dramatic boost in power a hurt YG was able to turn a defeat into victory. could he have done this previously when he fought ZBT or WYS? he was fighting with everything he had right? and still could not gain upperhand what are his chances had he been hurt? u say it was not stated that YG palms were stronger.does it have 2 be? look at what his doing his moves are able make contact with GWM body which was something he was unbale to do against ZBT.I dont see how u can be such a hypocrite u say the novel doesnt have to state YG is sad when using palms against WYS,ZBT u just assume it but it DOES have to be stated that his palms are stronger when hes completely dominating an opponent whoes=ZBT,WYS. I have never seen in ROCH a battle where one oponent as strong as GWM could attack have his attack dodged yet is unable to defend because he was angry and left himself open GWM could barley even SEE the kick how was he suppose to defend it ????This was not like the other battles at all. Plus look at his mentality when fighting. I dont know what SPT was like but i think CC said he fought like "he was unaware of all awarness" could u translate that battle or atleast post it here PLEASE CC???i wanna see how it's described im a newb man i dont know jack bout SPT only that he rivals sweeper.

It is not that I am being unfair just because YG is not my favorite, but I really cannot see the difference. It does not make sense that the palms are sudenly more powerful when the stances are the same.YG had already thought to himself that he is going to go all out with ZBT, but he still didn't win. That is the fact. So no one should claim that he wasn't trying his best. Or that he didn't want to hurt ZBT. And why can we can't see at as GLFW was just too on fire to see it? Because there is no way that YG is so much stronger than GLFW that he can defeat him within a few stances if his Sad Palm are effective. And also, realize that we are just speaking about the moves, not the power. It was the power of Sad Palms that was lost when YG was happy, not the stances. So it is not logical to say that YG's Sad Palms was different than the ones he used on ZBT, because it was the stances that got to GLFW first before the palm is able to make contact with his. But, stances has no effect from his mood at all. So what is all that of Sad Palms that are used on ZBT is differnt from the ones used on GLFW? And also, chances are, there is a large chance that JY will state that the palm powers are stronger, since I think JY is a detail person on these mattlers, but it was only stated that the power was "revived". But my previous statement on the stances are my main points.

[superboy]

I feel the need to disagree with TEMUJIN. First of all Xh Zhu and Daun Yu have little to no fighting experiences is the main reason XF will beat them. Especially in the case of Xu Zhu. Give him ten years time to perfect his techiques and fullingly use his inner energy and get more fighting experiences. XF will not beat him. Fighting experience can only get you so far. You act like YG has no fighting experience. When YG in his lifetime, had fought many battles. They are both experiences fighters. Experiences is not going to be a big different between them. GJ 16 years before is around equal to the inner energy of JGLS. In the 16 years, GJ continue training 9 yin and JGLS continue training the dragon and elephant to another level. It is not too much to say JGLS is around GJ inner energy even after 16 years. YG is around JGLS, so there is no big different. Of corse YG cannot easily defeat ZBT, what do you take ZBT for? Do you think GJ can easily defeat ZBT? I don't think so. It will still take GJ a long time and difficult time for GJ to defeat ZBT. ZBT is a great defense martial artist. His vacant fists is design to make hard techique useless. I think the continous grow of inner energy of GJ is because meant as it will grow without training. YG is the 16 years is continously fighting and training his inner energy is about equal as most people do agree. About the sad palms, I don't think YG realize the sad palms need sadness. He only realize it when he was he about to die. If GJ and YG were going to fighting, wouldn't YG now know he needed to be sad to battle GJ. Than sad palm should be dependable in that situation. There are something I don't understand through when YG fought ZBT, why would he afaird of an innerenergy contest, because I would agrue that contest will never happen. The only reason OYF and H7K had an inner energy battle was because OYF was crazy and disregarded his life. Nither ZBT or YG wanted to win that badly and risk dying. ZBT only wanted to test YG techique. YG only wanted ZBT to go with him. The only reason I can think of is YG really thought ZBT is crazy like his God-father.

I wil also have to disagree with GJ should be about the same as GLFW, although it is still very debatable. But as we can see, GJ was about a tie to GLFW in martial arts and internal energy. But it was also stated that GLFW has 20 years more time to cultivate, while GJ was luckier(probably 9 Yin).GJ trained for about 16-17 years of 9 Yin from LOCH to the battle at Mongolian camp. Therefore, although it's only assuming, GJ progess over twice the speed of GLFW's internal art with 9 Yin. And YG was not afraid and end the fight because he was afraid that ZBT may be crazy enough to do his God Father thingy. But he decided that an internal energy contest was the only way to decide who is the victor.

[LiarLiar]

A stance can't change, but it can be perfected. A stances can be better if it is perfect. Many people stated GJ improve in LOCH because he had to battle OYF. Can't the Sad palms improve a little after battling both WYS AND ZBT. It is not that YG wasn't trying his best against ZBT, because he was. It is just because YG do not know the sad palms can be more powerful. The palms he uses against JGLS is unintentional, which also mean he is using it unconciously. He didn't need to think to use it. If he didn't have to think about it, it should be faster. If a palm is faster than before, it can be said to be better than before. The thought process going into a battle that is life or death and a freindly match is different. Would you fight a little better if your life is on the line. Of course, everyone will react this way not only YG. But I'm just trying to point out, it is within reason to believe the sad palms can be more powerful.

[LiarLiar]

I do agree with you. GJ process faster than JGLS, But JGLS advance to another leveL his martial arts. His inner energy should be comparable to GJ. Not better, or even equal, but people with comparable inner energy give each other a run for their money. It is also not a absolute thing that YG inner energy is weaker than GJ. His ocean wave train is no less than 9 yin. Remember when YG first battling JGLS after losing his arm, their inner energy was camparable also. YG pace for increasing his inner energy is no less than GJ increasing his inner energy. I think YG and GJ inner energy is quite equal and comparable.

[superboy]

I also need to deisagree that GJ's and GLFW's internal energ could still be comparable if GJ still train regularly with 9 Yin. And I did he did, since he's a pretty hard working person. GJ should be a lot more powerful than GLFW if it is true. And that is why YG probably isn't equal to GJ, because his internal energy is on par with GLFW.

A stance can't change, but it can be perfected. A stances can be better if it is perfect. Many people stated GJ improve in LOCH because he had to battle OYF. Can't the Sad palms improve a little after battling both WYS AND ZBT. It is not that YG wasn't trying his best against ZBT, because he was. It is just because YG do not know the sad palms can be more powerful. The palms he uses against JGLS is unintentional, which also mean he is using it unconciously. He didn't need to think to use it. If he didn't have to think about it, it should be faster. If a palm is faster than before, it can be said to be better than before. The thought process going into a battle that is life or death and a freindly match is different. Would you fight a little better if your life is on the line. Of course, everyone will react this way not only YG. But I'm just trying to point out, it is within reason to believe the sad palms can be more powerful.

I also disagree on this speculation, because honestly, when ever a character improve or did something new, JY is very likely to state so. Sad Palms might still have improving protential in the future, but still, it was not stated so. Could YG have improved after he fought ZBT like how GJ improved from OYF? Possibly. But still, I find it quite unlikely. Because GJ had fought OYF several times and JY also tells us when he improve. But this is not the case for YG.

[Condor83]

I think we can dismiss the constant argument about GJ having the advantage of 1 arm arguments now

Isn't the sleeve mostly used to block/defend against an attack? I recall him using it to defend against ZBT. In reality how effectively can the sleeve be used to attack a great's level fighter?

Just a moment ago the two of them exchanged one stance, Yang Guo felt that the palm energy of the Imperial Priest was solid, robust and strong, he had never encountered such power amongst his former adversaries

ZBT and GWM had different styles of martial arts. ZBT's soft neutral style was never going to compete with GWM's Dragon Elephant thingy in terms of raw power. In fact, Vacant Fist is the the reputedly softest palm in the world at the time. He relies on superiority in technique and the ability to use two different techniques simultaneously through L/R Hand to win in combat. I'm not ready to call the YG vs. ZBT fight in YG's favor because of GX. If she was not present and ZBT utilized his 9Y techniques with VF before he was exhausted, the result may be different. What if he used the 9Y Claw to rip YG's sleeve clean off? What will that crippled brat then use to defend against a simultaneous attack?

Huang Yaoshi said:"Young brother Yang, the power of your new created palm stances are very forceful. In the entire realm only the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms of my son-in-law, Guo Jing can be compared to it. My Changing Peach and Descending Flower Palms is one level inferior."

I'm not sure WYS has seen the new HL18P. When was the last time he saw GJ use it, at Wah San Lun Gim against H7G? Since the power for GJ's palm comes in waves and not in one constant blast it should allow him to last in a battle between two very hard and overbearing techniques such as HL18P and Sad Palms. I do have a problem with this power wave stuff in HL18P so see the question below. Of course GJ also has a full version of Vacant Fist he can use against Sad Palms. VF requires a much lesser exertion of power and can still maintain its effectiveness. If YG is just throwing out sad palms and GJ is dodging and defending using soft neutralizing techniques, YG's bound to use up his inner power and allow GJ to retaliate.

Questions:
1) Does the power from GJ's HL18P always have to come in waves? I liken it to the traction control in a car since the system reduces engine output and torque drive so you don't just accelerate straight off. It reduces wheelspin, but can be overly sensitive and slow you down by reducing the engine power output. With HL18P, when you have an opponent on the ropes a full blast may do the job better than the waves of power. I hope you see my connection with the traction control. Is there still some way for GJ to unleash the palm at full force? In another words, can he turn off the waves of power like how I can turn off the DSC or traction control system in my car?

2) Has anyone tried using two different stances of VF with L/R Hand? This could be the ultimate defense technique though its retaliatory capability would be minimal.

[LiarLiar]

It come down to my opinion on the inner energy of 9yin and your. My opinion of the inner energy of 9 yin is not as strong as your opinion of the inner energy of 9 yin. I believe the inner energy that one can get from 9yin is comparable with the inner energy one can get from the ocean waves training of YG. I also think the level 10 of the elephant and dragon techique inner energy is comparable with the inner energy of 9 yin. You don't. 9 yin have techiques also, that is why it is better, but the inner energy it provide is not stronger than other form of inner energy training. You always point out JY didn't point out this or not. If he did point out everything, we wouldn't be debating. We will have the answer. Did JY ever state GJ is better than YG? Because he didn't that is why we are debating. I really felt if one can do something without thinking about it, it will faster. This is the major reason why I think YG Sad palms was a little better at the end. Of course I also understand in the text, JY didn't state it was better. So all we have to go by is impression. Many people state XF is great fighter because of the way his fights were written in the book. He seem to be overpowering everyone. The way the last fight of YG and GJLS was written give me the impression, the sad palms is better than when he fought ZBT. When YG throw a palms without knowing it, give me the impressive that sad palm is quickier and better. The last kick after three palms also gave me the impression it was quick and unavoidable. YG would able to do this when he is hurted and has limit mobility(he was hurt on the leg) seem impressive to me. It also seem after finding the essence of the sad palm again (sadness), YG gain a better understanding of his martial arts. which also can improve it. I can understand why some people will not see what I see because there is no proof. All of this is up to intrepretation. I'm just trying to point out my intrepretation. Not having the proof make this argument debatable. By the way, SB you're like most loyal GJ fans, you are doing most of the argument. I'm actually a bigger fan of GJ, so I have to pat you on the back for your argument through I don't entirely agree with them.

[LiarLiar]

I don't think the sleeve is mostly use as defense. It can also be use on offense. YG use it as a soft palm and his left hand as hard plam against ZBT L/R techique which was quite effective. They both back out. In another instant. YG use ten different variations to attack ZBT, his sleeve was one of them. Noboby did rip YG sleeve off in any of the fight, so I don't did it is easy to do. Not only that YG didn't only fight with his sleeve. I fought with chest, stomach, back. Pretty everything he has. No one else goes this. So it make up for his disability.

[superboy]

Originally posted by LiarLiar
It come down to my opinion on the inner energy of 9yin and your. My opinion of the inner energy of 9 yin is not as strong as your opinion of the inner energy of 9 yin. I believe the inner energy that one can get from 9yin is comparable with the inner energy one can get from the ocean waves training of YG. I also think the level 10 of the elephant and dragon techique inner energy is comparable with the inner energy of 9 yin. You don't. 9 yin have techiques also, that is why it is better, but the inner energy it provide is not stronger than other form of inner energy training. You always point out JY didn't point out this or not. If he did point out everything, we wouldn't be debating. We will have the answer. Did JY ever state GJ is better than YG? Because he didn't that is why we are debating. I really felt if one can do something without thinking about it, it will faster. This is the major reason why I think YG Sad palms was a little better at the end. Of course I also understand in the text, JY didn't state it was better. So all we have to go by is impression. Many people state XF is great fighter because of the way his fights were written in the book. He seem to be overpowering everyone. The way the last fight of YG and GJLS was written give me the impression, the sad palms is better than when he fought ZBT. When YG throw a palms without knowing it, give me the impressive that sad palm is quickier and better. The last kick after three palms also gave me the impression it was quick and unavoidable. YG would able to do this when he is hurted and has limit mobility(he was hurt on the leg) seem impressive to me. It also seem after finding the essence of the sad palm again (sadness), YG gain a better understanding of his martial arts. which also can improve it. I can understand why some people will not see what I see because there is no proof. All of this is up to intrepretation. I'm just trying to point out my intrepretation. Not having the proof make this argument debatable. By the way, SB you're like most loyal GJ fans, you are doing most of the argument. I'm actually a bigger fan of GJ, so I have to pat you on the back for your argument through I don't entirely agree with them.

This could be just a matter of opinions, but GLFW was at the 7th level when he fought GJ. And it shows that GJ's 9 Yin energy was able to match GLFW's with much less training. So in improvement rate, GJ should have became better, plus, you can progress an infinite amount of internal energy with 9 Yin since there is no levels of it. This is no absolute fact, but I just tried to make the best speculation. I thought that the Wave training of YG could be compare to 9 Yin too, but because of how many more years GJ had ahead of YG by the end of ROCH, it is very likely that he is more powerful in terms of internal energy. And JY does seems to gives us comments on the fighters when ever they improved. Or else, can improvement be implied to anyone even if JY didn't say so> JY even commented on some minors character's improvement, and it is rare that he made no comment at all if YG did. And I do not think that the fight with ZBT would make his palms much stronger. So does that means the first day he tie with ZBT, and he'll be able tp defeat him the next? And one thing also. We cannot use the stances of Sad Palms to compare to HL18Z, because HL18Z is only power based, with no variations of techniques other than the 18. So I found that contradicting for the people that claim Sad Palms that YG used on GLFW could be more powerful than HL18Z when it was the stances that overwhelm GLFW first and caused him to lose. I'm a fan of GJ, but I don't believe that just because YG is not my favorite, that I will give him an unfair judgment.

[philip]

dude, improvement rates arn't always proprotional. i mean, supposedly, GLFW's elephant-whatever training should take about 1/2 years to finish level one, twice the time to complete level two, level three twice amount of that...so if GLFW was at level seven if he fought GJ...he should've had about (we'll calculate it as 1 for the 1st level since GLWF is such a talent) 127 years worth of training/progression (how realisitic is that?). But within 16 years...he progressed to level 10...which should be another 385 years worth. so in 16 years...he achieved 3 times more progression than he did for an entire lifetime before that (even more unrealistic). yet...it's only because GLFW is such a rareity that he can aheive this...normal ppl would be stuck on stage 5 simply b/c they can't progress anymore.

We cannot use the stances of Sad Palms to compare to HL18Z, because HL18Z is only power based, with no variations of techniques other than the 18. So I found that contradicting for the people that claim Sad Palms that YG used on GLFW could be more powerful than HL18Z when it was the stances that overwhelm GLFW first and caused him to lose.

sad palms is comparable to XL18Z (noted by YD) but i don't beleive it is YG's best skill.

[superboy]

I am not sure if the time that it takes for one level will mean that his power will double. Anywayz, all o the YG vs GJ debates are speculation, you simply just take which onez you think is the most likely and reason with people. Since GLFW was still around Great level, and GJ was able to progress way faster than the Greats, 65 years old GJ logically, should be a lot stronger in terms of both martial arts and internal energy. The Greats at their 30s were no were near the level of GJ. Of course, there is a chance that all the Greats can suddenly improve at a much faster rate and still stay close to GLFW, but I take that the chance is smaller.

sad palms is comparable to XL18Z (noted by YD) but i don't beleive it is YG's best skill.

It was noted by HYS, and it could be at least YG's first or second best skill. I think it should be his best skill if he don't have his Iron Sword as his weaponary.

[philip]

am not sure if the time that it takes for one level will mean that his power will double. I am not sure if the time that it takes for one level will mean that his power will double. Anywayz, all o the YG vs GJ debates are speculation, you simply just take which onez you think is the most likely and reason with people. Since GLFW was still around Great level, and GJ was able to progress way faster than the Greats, 65 years old GJ logically, should be a lot stronger in terms of both martial arts and internal energy. The Greats at their 30s were no were near the level of GJ. Of course, there is a chance that all the Greats can suddenly improve at a much faster rate and still stay close to GLFW, but I take that the chance is smaller.

i did not say his power will double but that it takes twice the time to progress a level....meaning, that his progression in the 16 years after XLN jumped off the cliff is much greater than his rate before (assuming he had practived the Elephant-dragon-whatever techinique for his whole careerd). Just b/c GJ has a great improvement rate in his younger days does not mean he will continually improve at the same rate...it could go faster or slower (although i'm having my bet on slower). and YG's imporvment in the short while of training w/ heavy sword right after he loses is arm is enormous....i doubt he had the same exact rate for the 16 year training.

It was noted by HYS, and it could be at least YG's first or second best skill. I think it should be his best skill if he don't have his Iron Sword as his weaponary.

and why should weaponry not be counted into skill? personally, i think YG would do much better w/ his heavy sword than his sad palms (on an average basis...unless someone killed XLN and he is forever sad )

[superboy]

Why do you think that GJ real not improve at the same rate as he did? Isn't that sort of less logical for a har working guy like him? Even the Greats improved a lot in terms of internal energy through their years.
The debate again. It's not fair to fight with a superior weapon. It's not ecactly all martial arts that won. If a person is vey skilled in using a poisoness rod as his weapon, can we consider it to be fair that he used poisons to fight, not just martial arts?

[LiarLiar]

SB I didn't believe your view on YG is unfair. It is just different perspectative than mine. There is no right or wrong. Can you explain to me why it is contradicting for the sad palms to be a little better at the end? From my perspectative, it is not contradicting. Maybe you see it differently. Debating is the craziest, it is a forever stuggle to convince other of your opinion. And it is all it is, an opinion.
P.S. Philip may some valid argument about inner energy training being faster at the beginning and slower as you get along. People do improve more sometime than other. Good point.
P.S.S How do you guys do it. Cotinue on debating. I, for one, am exhausted from all this debating. I will try not to comment on this thread anymore, but this is addictive. It is like you always want to answer someone. It is also unhealth to go on forever.

[superboy]

It's contradicting because it was the stances that GLFW was unable to block, so since XL18Z is only in over powering your opponent, the arguement of it being better than XL18Z during the fight with GLFW is already contradicting. Okay, maybe 'contradicting' is not really a right word for this.

[philip]

Why do you think that GJ real not improve at the same rate as he did? Isn't that sort of less logical for a har working guy like him? Even the Greats improved a lot in terms of internal energy through their years.

because, people do not naturally improve at a constant rate. if you were to calculating everyone on a constant basis...YG's progression rate is much faster than that of GJ...so if GJ can catch up to the greats by age 30, YG should be able to surpass GJ on internal energy by the time he's 33. I mean, in less than a month from training w/ the condor, he was able to go from being crap against GLFW to almost matching GLFW. so divide 16 years by that time and YG should be that many times better....it doesn't work like that. And what's wrong w/ using weapons? no one disqualified OYF from using his snake staff or H7G/HR for using his dog beating stick

How do you guys do it. Cotinue on debating. I, for one, am exhausted from all this debating. I will try not to comment on this thread anymore, but this is addictive. It is like you always want to answer someone. It is also unhealth to go on forever.

yep...exhauasting....thatz why i only join in occasionally. it is good way to pass boredom though

On the topic of sad palms...i think itz really depends on the how fervent the emotions are. kinda like an adrenalin thing

[superboy]

because, people do not naturally improve at a constant rate. if you were to calculating everyone on a constant basis...YG's progression rate is much faster than that of GJ...so if GJ can catch up to the greats by age 30, YG should be able to surpass GJ on internal energy by the time he's 33. I mean, in less than a month from training w/ the condor, he was able to go from being crap against GLFW to almost matching GLFW. so divide 16 years by that time and YG should be that many times better....it doesn't work like that. And what's wrong w/ using weapons? no one disqualified OYF from using his snake staff or H7G/HR for using his dog beating stick

So why would GJ suddenly be increasing so much slower in internal energy after the start of ROCH? Does that make much sense? 9 Yin does not slow down in effect as you get older. YG was not near GLFW's level at all that time in ROCH 16 years before, although he was able to give a troublesome battle with his Iron Sword. I still don't see why that is not constant. YG 16 years later were clearly a lot more powerful compare to the GLFW of 16 years ago in terms of both martial arts and internal energy. On internal energy, YG was so much more powerful than 16 years ago. And in sword arts, although hr improved a lot, it still aren't proportionally equal to his improvement rate from the month of training with the Condor. But it was stated that he mastered the Iron Sword already right? So improving less on it is no surprise since it depends on the talent of a person to improve on an art. But internal energy is different. Plus, he haven't used the Iron Sword for a long time. But his combat ability even without the swords improved tremendously. So what is so inconsistant?

And what's wrong with a poisoness weapon? That was not a point. Do you consider someone having a spoon to fight against a hammer fair. Or how about an arrow against a gun? Superior weaponry are not the fairest way to battle.

[philip]

So why would GJ suddenly be increasing so much slower in internal energy after the start of ROCH? Does that make much sense? 9 Yin does not slow down in effect as you get older. YG was not near GLFW's level at all that time in ROCH 16 years before, although he was able to give a troublesome battle with his Iron Sword. I still don't see why that is not constant. YG 16 years later were clearly a lot more powerful compare to the GLFW of 16 years ago in terms of both martial arts and internal energy. On internal energy, YG was so much more powerful than 16 years ago. And in sword arts, although hr improved a lot, it still aren't proportionally equal to his improvement rate from the month of training with the Condor. But it was stated that he mastered the Iron Sword already right? So improving less on it is no surprise since it depends on the talent of a person to improve on an art. But internal energy is different. Plus, he haven't used the Iron Sword for a long time. But his combat ability even without the swords improved tremendously. So what is so inconsistant?

i never stated or marked a point in which GJ suddenly have a sharp angular depression in internal energy progression...however, there are plenty of evidence that internal energy progression is never linear. So what if YG "mastered" the iorn sword...the technique itself doesn't take much to learn but it's rather the qi training that requires practice. same w/ 9 yin, no? The skills are learned but you may still improve on the internal energy area.

also, if you take a look at LOCH, when GJ just left Mongolia, a great would've killed 50 GJ w/o much effort. By the time he leaves peach island, two GJ's were still no match for OYF (much less than 50% of OYF's power). By the 2nd Hua Shan tournament, GJ was probably about 70% of a great? And the time of GJ's adventure in LOCH should be about 3 years max? Yet, after another 10 years, GJ only managed to barely gain 30% on the Greats. Now, if you divde progression by time, you'll find that the progression rate of GJ in his LOCH adventure is much higher than his progression rate between LOCH & ROCH.

In anycase...if you do apply a linear progression to progression...YG should surpass GJ. I mean, compare a 20 year old YG's level to a 20 year old GJ's level, or a 35 year old YG's level to a 35 year old GJ's level. At the same ages...YG is obviously superior to GJ, meaning he surely does have a higher progression rate, so by the end of ROCH, YG should at least equal to GJ w/o problems.