Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: L/R Hand - All smoke, no fire?

  1. #1
    Junior Member Condor83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Passionless Valley
    Posts
    45

    Default L/R Hand - All smoke, no fire?

    Hmm, the GJ vs. YG debate has spawned a significant amount of discussion and thus questions on ZBT's invention. Is L/R Technique just all smoke with no fire? Is it just a bunch of tricks aimed at producing confusion? If so, then the entire wuxia world must be stupid because L/R Hand has existed for nearly 40 years from the time in was invented in LOCH to the end of ROCH and yet no one has been able to recognize that it's merely a ruse. AYF has seen it many times against GJ in LOCH due to their many encounters and how would a martial arts genius like him would not figure it out if the technique had no substance? The frequency with which GJ and ZBT use L/R Hand says something about its effectiveness in my opinion. Most unfortunate of all was the instance where GX cried foul and said it was unfair since YG only had one arm. ZBT should have used the 9Y Claw on her for interrupting the fight of the century.

    From LOCH, GJ clearly says it yields an improvement in technique though there is not a gain in inner power, at least not one we can prove.. Noodles, I went over Ch. 17 of LOCH and didn't see any discussion of the inner power training with L/R Hand technique beyond what you have posted. However, that section does clearly state there's an improvement in technique.

  2. #2
    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    928

    Default

    Nah, L/R isn't all smoke no fire. I mean, sure it helps at points to cauz confusion, but mostly, it basically turns one person into two, ain't that quite useful? I mean, look at XLN after she learns L/R, she basically can be YG and herself at the same time!
    Watch out! Dihydrogen Monoxide will kill us all!

  3. #3
    Senior Member Thai guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    663

    Default

    Yes, L/R technique has proved to be a fire in case of XLN. I wonder wheter Yelu Qi knew this technique or not. I don't think he knows.

  4. #4
    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    928

    Default

    nope, i don't think he did. i think ZBT said something about only him and GJ knowing it (before he taught XLN)
    Watch out! Dihydrogen Monoxide will kill us all!

  5. #5
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    The utility of Left/Right Hand Technique depends upon what the user brings into it. If you bring a pair of good techniques into it, it can be very effective. If you bring a pair of poor or mediocre techniques into it, your results will be less satisfying.

  6. #6
    Junior Member Condor83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Passionless Valley
    Posts
    45

    Default

    The million-dollar question is whether technique or inner power carries the day. In the Great vs. Great battles throughout ROCH, inner power competitions are needed to ultimately declare a victor. We saw this with H7G and AYF and were perhaps on the cusp of a ZBT vs. YG inner power contest. I think had YG not witnessed the fatal consequences suffered by H7G and his foster father, he would have dueled with ZBT. I have always thought that the improvement in technique achieved through L/R Hand can settle a battle without having it turn into a potentially lethal inner energy contest.

    Should Vacant Fist and HL18P really be used together with L/R Hand? Afterall, VF is soft while GJ's re-engineered HL18P can also be soft and hard. Thus, what's the point of using VF together with the new HL18P? GJ should replace it with a more fierce 9Y palm or fist technique.

  7. #7
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    california
    Posts
    611

    Default

    L/R hand is great if you have a martial arts style that relies a lot on stances --- there are 72 kong ming fists, 18 dragon palms, and goodness knows how many variations of jade maiden swordplay. if you use L/R hand technique --- to use a chess analogy --- you're basically increasing your "moves" 2 to 1 against your opponent.

    the problem with L/R hand technique, is that it's not EXACTLY becoming two fighters --- because for sure, we know that your total internal energy is shared between the two hands. for example:

    in ROCH, GJ is using L/R hand technique against the 4 fighters in the mongolian camp (3, after he just plain knocked out that guy with the whip). i remember in noodles' translation, it said something about GJ using 70% of his energy to match palms with JLGS, and 30% to do HL18Z with his other hand. while this is a truly incredible scene, i have to think that a 30%-powered HL18Z would be little more than a distraction against 2 other above average (yet not approaching first-rate) fighters. also, we've seen many times in wuxia novels that 2 fighters that are unevenly matched can still match palms for a while before the weaker one must give way --- i don't think 70% of GJ then would have been able to overwhlem JLGS.

    i think the biggest reason why ZBT and GJ could use L/R hand technique to their advantage was because they were fighting opponents that were of a lesser caliber than them. ZBT was tying with KCY because they were trying to match blow for blow, and iron palms is just scary in that aspect --- however, ZBT had the clear advantage in technique. using vacant fist to dissipate an iron palm while striking out with the other hand would definitely allow him to win...by the way, i don't think vacant fist takes up too much energy because it's a soft style that borrows from the enemy's energy. this is the only combo that really makes sense for L/R hand technique, other than complimentary sword techs like XLN --- because the softness of VF can be used for defense without using much power (like 20%), and most of your power can be continued to be used for offense. this gives you an advantage because your counterattack time is actually much shorter, so you probably don't even need 100% to injure your opponent.

    to condor83:

    it would be useless for GJ to use a hard technique based on offense, for his other hand if he was using in HL18Z...following the theory, GJ would only be stealing energy from the power of his HL18Z to use in the other palm. this turns him from one legendary fighter to 2 barely average ones. not the greatest thing to do.

    ----

    so the final point for L/R hand technique is clear: it allows you to strike strategically as if you were 2 fighters, but does not increase your power level specifically. i think when GJ said it "increased his power", he meant that it taught him better CONTROL of his internal energy...don't blame the boy for being unclear though, he was never really that articulate anyways. basically, he was better able to manage the way he used chi in each of his hands. sort of gaining a martial arts "task manager", if you will...i hope he doesn't get any microsoft martial arts virus

    for someone like YG, his martial arts would be completely unsuited for L/R hand technique...if he puts all his strength into one blow of his ironsword, then even if he could do a sadpalm with the other hand it would carry no strength behind it.
    Last edited by sixdays; 03-10-04 at 11:40 PM.
    Beggar Society: Furthering the cause of homeless bullies since 1173.

  8. #8
    Junior Member Condor83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Passionless Valley
    Posts
    45

    Default

    the problem with L/R hand technique, is that it's not EXACTLY becoming two fighters --- because for sure, we know that your total internal energy is shared between the two hands
    I agree completely on this point. The only person who thinks it doubles your power and makes you two fighters is good old ZBT. It was clear from the beginning that this statement was another one of his gross exaggerations. Although it was not as ludicrous as saying that GWM cannot take 10 stances from WCY in the 2nd edition of ROCH. This last statement was changed slightly in the latest edition.

    You're also correct that Vacant Fist does not take as much inner power as the other of the Great's signature techniques because it's a soft style of kung-fu. The power from GJ's HL18P is from 9Y and the palm is both soft and hard. Further, the power from the palm comes in waves and is no longer just a sudden blast of energy. I think VF already takes care of the soft part of the equation and a HL18P whose power came straight out instead of in waves would be more effective for L/R Hand..

    Again, it's such a shame GX stuck her nose in the YG vs. ZBT battle. By the time ZBT used Demon Subduing Fist from 9Y, he was rapidly tiring due to his age. I wanted him to use the 9Y techniques right after he used the entire 72 sequences of VF near the beginning of the fight. This would not only show how strong YG really was, but more importantly, would demonstrate the true effectiveness of 9Y in combat. We hear so much about 9Y in LOCH, but the instances where we see its potency in combat are too few in my opinion.

  9. #9
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    U.S.A
    Posts
    4,457

    Default

    I think L/R technique is an effective way to combate, and not just to lower level fighters. It gives you an advantage not only because you can use 2 techniques at ones, but also let you control your arms as if you have two minds.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  10. #10
    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tazzy Land
    Posts
    1,348

    Default

    another analogy is compare a computer with 2 CPUs and 1G RAM with that of another with only 1 CPU but with the same amount of RAM; the performance of the former would be faster but doesn;t mean that it can do more things at the same time... so IMO the L/R techniques would be use only for those with lotsa qi to spare and not for those weaker ones.

  11. #11
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    U.S.A
    Posts
    4,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazzy1972
    another analogy is compare a computer with 2 CPUs and 1G RAM with that of another with only 1 CPU but with the same amount of RAM; the performance of the former would be faster but doesn;t mean that it can do more things at the same time... so IMO the L/R techniques would be use only for those with lotsa qi to spare and not for those weaker ones.
    Not really. Cuz it's not a chi consuming techjnique like XL18Z or something. XLN used it with no problem.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  12. #12
    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tazzy Land
    Posts
    1,348

    Default

    but XLN qi is not fantasitc granted, but is not weak either

  13. #13
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    2,308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazzy1972
    ...that it can do more things at the same time...
    About doing more things at the same time, do you mean multi-tasking? I thought multi-tasking is depended on the O/S, not on the processor. For processor(s), it is multi-threading.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazzy1972
    another analogy is compare a computer with 2 CPUs and 1G RAM with that of another with only 1 CPU but with the same amount of RAM; the performance of the former would be faster but doesn;t mean that it can do more things at the same time... so IMO the L/R techniques would be use only for those with lotsa qi to spare and not for those weaker ones.
    Not exactly correct there my friend.

    A more correct analogy will be comparing a computer with 2 paralel processors and another with 1 processor that does hyperthreading (which basically splits the logical processing capability into 2 parts). When the processing load isnt too high, the performance of both computers could be said to be almost equal, although the one with 2 actual processors would be slightly better. BUT, when the load increases, the one with 2 actual processors would still be churning away while the 1 hyperthreading processor would be struggling.

    Cheers

  15. #15
    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    864

    Default

    Well it is a useful utility to add to your arsenal as long as you are not too bright since ppl who are not too quick witted can learn it in a matter of days. However, if you are bright like Huang Rong then apparently it would take so much time to learn that it simply wasn't worth the effort. I think Yeli Qi would have been perfect for learning it!
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

  16. #16
    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tazzy Land
    Posts
    1,348

    Default

    maybe u guys misunderstood wat i meant.... I mean that a dual-cpu PC can run applications faster than a single-cpu PC. But the number of applications running is more dependant on ur RAM more than CPU speed.

    cheers

  17. #17
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,480

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhuge Liang
    Well it is a useful utility to add to your arsenal as long as you are not too bright since ppl who are not too quick witted can learn it in a matter of days. However, if you are bright like Huang Rong then apparently it would take so much time to learn that it simply wasn't worth the effort. I think Yeli Qi would have been perfect for learning it!
    It depends on "pure mind", not stupidity or something. A very bright person is able to learn it, just as long as he/she has a pure mind. Of course, such a person is hard to find.

    A dumb person who has a lot of silly thoughts running through his/her mind will not be able to learn this skill. Guo Fu would fail miserably.
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  18. #18
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,492

    Default

    but XLN qi is not fantasitc granted, but is not weak either
    Yep XLN's chi was not strong to begin with its amazing that she could still be that powerful even when she was injured/poisioned(which further weakened her chi). PHOJM is a pretty crazy technique. Much respect to LCY. Had XLN not been so badly injured i think she could have tooken GSZ without any distraction. Which is pretty crazy since she was proboally below LMC before learning LR technique.


    maybe u guys misunderstood wat i meant.... I mean that a dual-cpu PC can run applications faster than a single-cpu PC. But the number of applications running is more dependant on ur RAM more than CPU speed.

    ........srry man comp illiterate dont get what your saying? Are u trying to say that one person using the PHOJM swordplay will not be able to compare to two people using the skill. But if one person who's using LR tech and PHOJM may perform the techniques much faster? If so then i agree.
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 09-19-04 at 04:29 PM.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  19. #19
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    2,308

    Default

    Sorry for the pointless computer debate It's just that from my understanding multi-tasking is depended on the type of O/S (Operating System) used, not on the number of processors or the size of RAM memory.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    It depends on "pure mind", not stupidity or something. A very bright person is able to learn it, just as long as he/she has a pure mind. Of course, such a person is hard to find.

    A dumb person who has a lot of silly thoughts running through his/her mind will not be able to learn this skill. Guo Fu would fail miserably.
    You explained that much better than me!
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •