The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Ken Cheng]

One of the most perennially popular topics in wuxia discussion circles is now, by popular demand, a *permanent* thread here at the SPCNET Wuxia Forum. Some basic guidelines.

1. Please be civil and polite to your fellow posters while discussing this matter. We are naturally passionate about our opinions, and that's fine . . . but please do not cross the line to being insulting of other posters.

2. Please offer evidence to support your opinions. The best evidence is taken from the most current versions of the L/ROCH novels. Generally speaking, television and film adaptations make for unreliable information, and should not be depended upon for evidence.

3. Remember that you are comparing the two warriors' martial arts expertise, not their characters. That's a whole other debate.

4. Although speculation is fair game, be mindful that speculation supported by the text is much more convincing than wild speculation.

5. The usual forum rules apply. Excessive violation of forum rules in this thread will result in the thread's locking.

That's about it for now. Have at thee, fans!

[superboy]

56 years old GJ is stronger than 36 years old YG when we count the improvement rate. Anyone suggest otherwise?

[philip]

once more, improvement rates are not LINEAR.

i'd say they are equal...what happened to that option?

[atlantean0208]

Originally posted by philip
once more, improvement rates are not LINEAR.

i'd say they are equal...what happened to that option?

yehh especially when someone have the gall bladders supplement and the ocean wave training

[Temujin]

YG developed his martial arts at a faster rate than GJ... we all agree on this... however, when comparing GJ and YG at the end of ROCH, all evidence led me to believe that GJ should be a better fighter than YG in terms of techniques and inner power, and experience.

Reasons :

GJ has 9-Yin manual (The most powerful in LOCH/ROCH) and QZ inner power cultivation which continue to grow without boundaries even when he's asleep Martial arts wise, GJ might not be as innovative as YG, but he's able to combine HL18Z and 9-Yin, not to mention mastering several other great martial arts. Guo Jing surpassed OYF, who are equalled to H7Q at the beginning of ROCH. He recovered faster than West Venom and was only injured because he's at a disadvantage. If everything holds true, his inner power cultivation should be still improving every second all the way until the end of ROCH. Beside, whoever said, combining two great martial arts (9-Yin and HL18Z) is easier than inventing your own (Sad-Palm) ? JY also never said that after the hard training with the waves, YG's inner power will continue to grow, while GJ's will.

YG is younger, more vigority, more sparks of energy, smart, and very innovative (he invented his own Sad palms). But there's no evidence that YG inner power, although extremely powerful at the end of ROCH, will continue to grow like GJ's. And although YG learn DG swordplay, it has never been stated that he developed it the proper way, he basically learn it on his own with the help of brother Condor. But there's no solid evidence that say Master Du Gu himself went through the same experience, and hence, what he learnt was only the escence and principles, we would never know if that is what the real Du Gu swordplay as practiced by Master Du Gu.

[duguxiaojing]

yeah i do suerboy According 2 your logic GJ would be stronger then qiao feng also and so would YG.The older dosent mean more inner power in all situations there are exceptions. Gj had more plentiful supply of inner energy then a 60 something year old OYF. you could argue that it was due 2 9 yin but again u just agreed that YG inner power was at a higher level then a GJ at the same age so if anything YG power increased faster then 9 yin training. Then u say YG wont increase at the rate of GJ due 2 QZ training. wheres the proof? YG energy increased rapidly throughout the years thers no evidence supporting that it'll stop increasing. All the greats with the exception of ZBT did not have QZ inner power did they all just die and fall off the face of the earth? no they all increased to close to the same level of ZBT if not greater(1deng case) you dont need QZ inner power to stay at the top as long as u continue to train.

[duguxiaojing]

GJ never used 9yin inner power to modify powre of 18DP right? didnt he just use the theories to change the stances into looking more soft?

[atlantean0208]

Originally posted by Temujin
YG developed his martial arts at a faster rate than GJ... we all agree on this... however, when comparing GJ and YG at the end of ROCH, all evidence led me to believe that GJ should be a better fighter than YG in terms of techniques and inner power, and experience.

Reasons :

GJ has 9-Yin manual (The most powerful in LOCH/ROCH) and QZ inner power cultivation which continue to grow without boundaries even when he's asleep Martial arts wise, GJ might not be as innovative as YG, but he's able to combine HL18Z and 9-Yin, not to mention mastering several other great martial arts. Guo Jing surpassed OYF, who are equalled to H7Q at the beginning of ROCH. He recovered faster than West Venom and was only injured because he's at a disadvantage. If everything holds true, his inner power cultivation should be still improving every second all the way until the end of ROCH. Beside, whoever said, combining two great martial arts (9-Yin and HL18Z) is easier than inventing your own (Sad-Palm) ? JY also never said that after the hard training with the waves, YG's inner power will continue to grow, while GJ's will.

YG is younger, more vigority, more sparks of energy, smart, and very innovative (he invented his own Sad palms). But there's no evidence that YG inner power, although extremely powerful at the end of ROCH, will continue to grow like GJ's. And although YG learn DG swordplay, it has never been stated that he developed it the proper way, he basically learn it on his own with the help of brother Condor. But there's no solid evidence that say Master Du Gu himself went through the same experience, and hence, what he learnt was only the escence and principles, we would never know if that is what the real Du Gu swordplay as practiced by Master Du Gu.

but then we never know and it never been stated by JinYong that at the end of ROCH, the internal energy growthness of GJ surpass the supremely high internal energy of yang-gou...

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
once more, improvement rates are not LINEAR.

i'd say they are equal...what happened to that option?

ON this matter, you still haven'twon the debate on the other thread. And I thought just being equal might be to coincidential.

[superboy]

yeah i do suerboy According 2 your logic GJ would be stronger then qiao feng also and so would YG.The older dosent mean more inner power in all situations there are exceptions. Gj had more plentiful supply of inner energy then a 60 something year old OYF. you could argue that it was due 2 9 yin but again u just agreed that YG inner power was at a higher level then a GJ at the same age so if anything YG power increased faster then 9 yin training. Then u say YG wont increase at the rate of GJ due 2 QZ training. wheres the proof? YG energy increased rapidly throughout the years thers no evidence supporting that it'll stop increasing. All the greats with the exception of ZBT did not have QZ inner power did they all just die and fall off the face of the earth? no they all increased to close to the same level of ZBT if not greater(1deng case) you dont need QZ inner power to stay at the top as long as u continue to train.

I agree on the fact that 36 years old YG is better than 36 years old GJ. But 56 years old GJ is a different matter. Also, QZ energy were already said to increase faster as you practice. This may be the reason why ZBT was no where near the level of a Great 15 years before GJ came to Peach Blossom Island. While later, he not only caught up, but even became a somewhat superior fighter.

[tape]

I think people are becoming tired of this debate...perhaps u should just rename the other thread into The Official Thread and sticky that one? There might not be many people involved in this one.

[Anonymous]

Temu: GJ has 9-Yin manual (The most powerful in LOCH/ROCH) and QZ inner power cultivation which continue to grow without boundaries even when he's asleep Martial arts wise, [...] If everything holds true, his inner power cultivation should be still improving every second all the way until the end of ROCH.
--- [This goes to Superboy too.]
1) 9Yin is a compilation [complete?] collection of taoist teachings and Quan Zhen is also a taoist sect. Meaning, within 9Yin, there is "bound" to be something similar to QZ's innerPower training. So, GJ's innerPower rate is "only" dependent on 9Yin and not 9Yin+QZ (besides GJ only got the "basic" QZ training).
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2) Let's compare QZ training with 9Yin. QZ training is from "Central Divinity" (who "never" loses) and is his training is still "respected" by the greats. Meaning: QZ training is "not far" from 9Yin in innerPower training. [Let's give QZ training s 60% of 9Yin innerPower training.]
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2) YG got the "advanced" QZ training and it's "black star" the JadeHeartManual's training. I'm not sure if JadeHeartManual improves with age but it "does" overcome the QZ training (so it probably "does" increase with age) and it's "not" taoist. Meaning: YG, like GJ, also increases in innerPower with age BUT YG can also "combine" the two innerPower trainings together: QZ+JHManual. So, QZ+JHManual vs. 9Yin. [I'll let QZ+JHManual = 80% of 9Yin innerPower training.]
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3) However, YG "also" got DGQB's innerPower training (I'll accede that it doesnt grow better with age, BUT it does improve the innerPower "level" of YG.) YG got the ironSword training (waterfall), snow+wind+(day-to-night) training [first year of woodenSword], and woodenSword training (tidalWave).
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1stConclusion: GJ, when compared to YG, has a "blunted"/lower improvement due to YG's QZ+JadeHeartManual training. Since YG also got DGQB's training, YG's innerPower rate is "definitely" better than GJ's rate.
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Now, I'll use Temujin's GJ=OYF starting point for GJ's "innerPower improvement rate:"
1) We cannot use GJ=OYF as a starting point because YG is still young and there is no "common ground" to compare. IMPORTANT: Besides, if GJ=OYF and later GJ=GWM, then GJ within this interval "has not improved" contrary to your/Superboy's "GJ improvement rate" and also supports my "GJ is currently a zombie prior YG's 16 year separation" (meaning GJ didnt improve) theory. We can only add GWM in cuz YG clashed with GWM and GJ clashed with GWM

[Anonymous]

Temu: Guo Jing surpassed OYF, who are equalled to H7Q at the beginning of ROCH. He recovered faster than West Venom and was only injured because he's at a disadvantage.
--- GJ wouldnt have injured OYF if not for HR's involvement. Please, please look (check) at my "GJ vs. OYF" posting (it's in or near the highlighted/or italicized areas). I also made comments about GJ's recovery. [The gist is: OYF got the advantage cuz of innocents nearby. GJ is losing and HR distracted OYF, and now GJ has the advantage to power HL18Z. OYF forced HR away and had to "full power" to "tie" with GJ. They both fell through the building and in the dark, both hit on each other's shoulder. I will admit due to "old age" OYF is weaker, but GJ is also "older" than YG too.]
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To Ken: I agree with tape. Why not connect the "official" GJ vs. YG with the old GJ vs. YG? And thx for reminding (the "notice" thing) about the "official" thread.

[superboy]

2) Let's compare QZ training with 9Yin. QZ training is from "Central Divinity" (who "never" loses) and is his training is still "respected" by the greats. Meaning: QZ training is "not far" from 9Yin in innerPower training. [Let's give QZ training s 60% of 9Yin innerPower training.]

THis is just a mere speculation, and there is nothing to support so. Even the most talented of the QZ diciples, ZBT, were not able to reach Great level until old age. So therefore, QZ internal energy should be no where close to this 'ultimate manual' of the Condor Trilogy.

2) YG got the "advanced" QZ training and it's "black star" the JadeHeartManual's training. I'm not sure if JadeHeartManual improves with age but it "does" overcome the QZ training (so it probably "does" increase with age) and it's "not" taoist. Meaning: YG, like GJ, also increases in innerPower with age BUT YG can also "combine" the two innerPower trainings together: QZ+JHManual. So, QZ+JHManual vs. 9Yin. [I'll let QZ+JHManual = 80% of 9Yin innerPower training.]

It seems that YG does not train with QZ energy any longer. He switched to the torrent method. So no increasing with age for him.

) However, YG "also" got DGQB's innerPower training (I'll accede that it doesnt grow better with age, BUT it does improve the innerPower "level" of YG.) YG got the ironSword training (waterfall), snow+wind+(day-to-night) training [first year of woodenSword], and woodenSword training (tidalWave).

HIs torrent training is mainly the onl thing he trains. He seems to no longer uses his old methods.

Now, I'll use Temujin's GJ=OYF starting point for GJ's "innerPower improvement rate:"
1) We cannot use GJ=OYF as a starting point because YG is still young and there is no "common ground" to compare. IMPORTANT: Besides, if GJ=OYF and later GJ=GWM, then GJ within this interval "has not improved" contrary to your/Superboy's "GJ improvement rate" and also supports my "GJ is currently a zombie prior YG's 16 year separation" (meaning GJ didnt improve) theory. We can only add GWM in cuz YG clashed with GWM and GJ clashed with GWM"

The fight of OYF and GJ was only three years before the battle of GLFW. IF we count their age, GJ improves at least twice the rate of GLFW. But a three years seperation may not make much difference. But it was also stated that GJ and GLFW would need over a thousand stance to decide the victor, while GJ tied with OYF 3 years ago. It seems likely that time that GJ will probably win. And GLFW was no piece of wood, he trains during the 3 years too. So no inconsistency here.

[Ken Cheng]

NOTE: the previous Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor thread is now closed, but it is available here

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...&threadid=6791

for reference.

[Thor]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
NOTE: the previous Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor thread is now closed, but it is available here

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...&threadid=6791

for reference.

Ken
I find it rather strange that you chose to close a above mentioned thread that had 223 posts.
Rather you started a similiar one and make it sticky.

From the precedent/rules on duplicate threads, this one that you started should be merged with the previous Gwok Jing vs Yeung Gor thread.
The previously thread should be reopen.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Thor
Ken
I find it rather strange that you chose to close a above mentioned thread that had 223 posts.
Rather you started a similiar one and make it sticky.

From the precedent/rules on duplicate threads, this one that you started should be merged with the previous Gwok Jing vs Yeung Gor thread.
The previously thread should be reopen.

One of the objectives of this sticky thread is to have a clean slate, so that newer posters who want to participate in the debate, but don't quite know where they can join in will not feel intimidated by the weight of all that has come before. Additionally, merging the thread would put the header post somewhere in the middle (as the thread is organized by date, and thus the header post of this thread would be buried somewhere in the middle of a merged thread). This would cause new debaters to overlook or completely miss the guidelines (which would defeat the purpose of writing them).

If there are elements from previous Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor threads you'd like to bring into the new debate, feel free to cut and paste them here from earlier threads. No thread merging, however, is planned.

[Condor83]

2) Let's compare QZ training with 9Yin. QZ training is from "Central Divinity" (who "never" loses) and is his training is still "respected" by the greats. Meaning: QZ training is "not far" from 9Yin in innerPower training. [Let's give QZ training s 60% of 9Yin innerPower training.]

I agree with Superboy. These percentages don't mean anything. You can't just throw out these numbers, there's not a shread of evidence. Just because the other Greats respect WCY's training does not give an indication as to how close QZ inner power is to 9Y. After the first Wah San Lun Gim had immense respect for HL18P, but that says nothing about how close, especially in % terms, it was in relation to other martial arts techniques.

[Anonymous]

Super: The fight of OYF and GJ was only three years before the battle of GLFW. IF we count their age, GJ improves at least twice the rate of GLFW. But a three years seperation may not make much difference. But it was also stated that GJ and GLFW would need over a thousand stance to decide the victor, while GJ tied with OYF 3 years ago. It seems likely that time that GJ will probably win. So no inconsistency here.
--- First off, are we sure the interval is "3 years" betw (GJ vs OYF) and (GJ vs. GWM)? [For my counter-arguments, I'll use 3 years for now.]
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--- Using your/Temu's assumption that GJ "did" continue to improve (obviously using 9Yin) within the interval when GJ faced OYF and when GJ faced GWN, I find inconsistencies (which prove your trend/theory wrong):
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1) Your statements/theory indicate OYF < GWM, becuz (GJ=OYF or greater) and after 3 years of 9Yin (GJ=GWM or greater) prior the 16 years. Recall your assumption that 9Yin is twice GWM's rate?
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--- If OYF < GWM then: 1) GWM's rate of innerPower is better. 2) Then YG vs. GWM at QZ Palace means that YG is already a "great" prior the 16 years and YG could take KauCheenYan easily. And YG after 16years should be "really" above the greats: not true.
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--- Now taking GJ is twice the innerPower rate than GWM, and if we backtrack your theory/trend, then OYF=H7G=HYS=1Deng < GWM. And then GWM after 16years should be "really" above the greats: not true.
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--- Recall HR also trained 9Yin along with GJ for 10years in PeachBlossom Island before ROCH. If GJ really improved betw beginning of ROCH and prior YG's 16year separation, then HR also "should" improved. It was stated that HR and GJ did things together. However, (YG=HR or YG>HR) > (Gongsun, MadameGongsun,etc), meaning HR's (10years of 9Yin in PeachBlossom Island and more than 3 years of 9Yin and the whole LOCH year) sucks compared to (QZ + AncientTomb + snakeGall + IronSword training), and IronSword+snakeGall only improved YG "one or two levels" This results in HR and GJ becoming "static" characters and DGQB's methods are better than 9Yin.
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--- [Definitely need correction here but you get the idea] Assuming 9Yin innerPower = 9Yang innerPower, and ZWJ got the "full" 9Yang version while Z3F only got "portion" of it, then shouldnt ZWJ > Z3F in innerPower?
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Super: HIs [YG] torrent training is mainly the onl thing he trains. He seems to no longer uses his old methods.
--- Assuming YG doesnt train QZ, then GJ also doesnt train in QZ but in 9Yin fully. However, your assumption is based that QZ innerPower effect "requires" QZ training to be effective [Can anyone tell if this is true?]
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c83: I agree with Superboy. These percentages don't mean anything.
--- k. I'm grabbing straws here.

[philip]

originally posted by superboyBut using weight as an analogy is not really correct at this. Because I don't believe internal energy will grow more and more slow as your level gotten higher, unless if maybe there are difficult levels on your method that my hinder your success. There is no limitation like how much your muscles can grow. And I think YG had about 7 years of training or so when he fought GLFW at the temple. Although cultivations may not always be proportional, after looking at the demonstration of YG's power at 36, I do not think that it is that unbelieveable to say that his internal energy increased at least another 2 folds.

you use wrestling as an analogy to GLFW vs YG in terms of internal energy…why would weight training not be? YG definitely had less than 7 years of training before the 16 years…4 years of ancient tomb + less than a month of water cultivation for real training (and perhaps plus some less than two years while he’s on his “adventure”), but it seems that the progression he got from his water cultivation is much faster than his ancient tomb training. If his improvement was linear…he should’ve at least improved by 3 times.

originally posted by superboy I agree on the fact that 36 years old YG is better than 36 years old GJ. But 56 years old GJ is a different matter. Also, QZ energy were already said to increase faster as you practice. This may be the reason why ZBT was no where near the level of a Great 15 years before GJ came to Peach Blossom Island. While later, he not only caught up, but even became a somewhat superior fighter.

now doesn’t that contradict ur own theory of a linear progression rate? ZBT obviously did not have a linear rate. And yet, if QZ internal power truly allowed him faster and faster progression (during his 10 years on peach island), by the end of ROCH, ZBT should have also way surpassed the other Greats…but seemingly, most ppl agree that ZBT is only a bit better than the other greats (still about about the same level). The difference not much more than at the end of LOCH.

originally posted by Temujin GJ has 9-Yin manual (The most powerful in LOCH/ROCH) and QZ inner power cultivation which continue to grow without boundaries even when he's asleep Martial arts wise, GJ might not be as innovative as YG, but he's able to combine HL18Z and 9-Yin, not to mention mastering several other great martial arts.

JY also never said that after the hard training with the waves, YG's inner power will continue to grow, while GJ's will.

YG also had pieces of 9 yin inside him, and isn’t unconscious cultivation the whole purpose of the jade bed?
It’s also pretty obvious that between the 16 years wait for XLN, YG’s internal energy was cultivating quite nicely .

originally posted by Ken ChangGwok Jing's biggest known gain was during the 13-year interim between LOCH and ROCH. The extent of his gains throughout the ROCH saga is unknown, but it probably wasn't comparable to his gains during that interim period because, after all, Gwok Jing at the end of ROCH wasn't two or three times more powerful than any of the other Greats. At best, he had a slight edge over them. [/i]

thank you!