View Poll Results: Who was the superior fighter?

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  • Gwok Jing/Guo Jing

    138 58.47%
  • Yeung Gor/Yang Guo

    90 38.14%
  • Not Sure

    8 3.39%
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Thread: The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

  1. #2081
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Bet you didn't expect to see *this* thread rising back to the top!

    I've revived it to discuss one very specific issue in comparing Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor's martial arts development up to the age of twenty.

    At the end of LOCH, with "only" Gong Nam 7 Freaks martial arts, limited Cheun Jen Sect training, Left/Right Hand Technique, the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms, and incomplete 9 Yum Jen Ging training, Gwok Jing was powerful enough to credibly battle two Greats up to 600 total strokes at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, making him the seventh most powerful martial artist in the world at the time. This was Gwok Jing, supposedly a "dumb" guy who learns slowly.

    To the point just before he first encountered the Divine Condor in ROCH, Yeung Gor, having learned the complete Cheun Jen Sect and Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts systems, a little bit of Ha Mo Gung, a little bit of 9 Yum Jen Ging, Dog Beating Stick Technique, Jade Flute Sword Technique, and Divine Snap Technique, was still not necessarily powerful enough to defeat Lee Mok Sau one-on-one. That's considerably weaker than Gwok Jing was at the end of LOCH, and Yeung Gor was supposed to be a smart guy who learned fast.

    How did did twenty-year old Yeung Gor not attain a higher level than twenty-year old Gwok Jing did prior to acquiring Dook Goo Kau Bai's legacy? Was Gwok Jing's fuller knowledge of the 9 Yum Jen Ging the difference?

  2. #2082
    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Bet you didn't expect to see *this* thread rising back to the top!

    I've revived it to discuss one very specific issue in comparing Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor's martial arts development up to the age of twenty.

    At the end of LOCH, with "only" Gong Nam 7 Freaks martial arts, limited Cheun Jen Sect training, Left/Right Hand Technique, the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms, and incomplete 9 Yum Jen Ging training, Gwok Jing was powerful enough to credibly battle two Greats up to 600 total strokes at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, making him the seventh most powerful martial artist in the world at the time. This was Gwok Jing, supposedly a "dumb" guy who learns slowly.

    To the point just before he first encountered the Divine Condor in ROCH, Yeung Gor, having learned the complete Cheun Jen Sect and Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts systems, a little bit of Ha Mo Gung, a little bit of 9 Yum Jen Ging, Dog Beating Stick Technique, Jade Flute Sword Technique, and Divine Snap Technique, was still not necessarily powerful enough to defeat Lee Mok Sau one-on-one. That's considerably weaker than Gwok Jing was at the end of LOCH, and Yeung Gor was supposed to be a smart guy who learned fast.

    How did did twenty-year old Yeung Gor not attain a higher level than twenty-year old Gwok Jing did prior to acquiring Dook Goo Kau Bai's legacy? Was Gwok Jing's fuller knowledge of the 9 Yum Jen Ging the difference?
    I think it's partly because Guo Jing's teachers all spent time with him to impart the skills properly (even Hong 7 Gong and Ma Yu spent significant time with him for training) while Yang Guo learnt everything other than the Ancient Tomb skills in passing, and had to practice them himself. Guo Jing's skills (apart from those taught by the seven freaks) also had synergy, while Yang Guo's skills were all over the place - sword, stick, palm, finger etc..

  3. #2083
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I think it's partly because Guo Jing's teachers all spent time with him to impart the skills properly (even Hong 7 Gong and Ma Yu spent significant time with him for training) while Yang Guo learnt everything other than the Ancient Tomb skills in passing, and had to practice them himself. Guo Jing's skills (apart from those taught by the seven freaks) also had synergy, while Yang Guo's skills were all over the place - sword, stick, palm, finger etc..
    True. The Golden Wheel Monk even pointed this out to Yeung Gor when they met up again after going their separate ways after the Heroes' Conference.

  4. #2084
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    GJ had better comprehension breakthroughs than YG did.

    His first breakthrough was when H7G imparted "simplicity resisting complexity".

    His next breakthrough was seeing and realizing how deep the formulas in 9 Yin were after watching and hearing HYS, H7G and OYF. It was sufficiently enlightening that he couldn't help but to try them out immediately.

    Then he comprehended the Big Dipper theory (which is more than just the formation) which instantly improved his energy manipulation tremendously. He was now able to freely send his energy through objects with all the peculiar properties only the highest level practitioners can use (literally only the Greats and a few of QZ7 demonstrated any of this in LOCH for instance).

    Finally he had a month of forced training of 9 Yin with OYF where he really got to think through the deep theories and apply them immediately. As he had the highest possible level as an opponent and there was no danger of getting hurt, this improved his ability far beyond what ordinary training can achieve (it's similar to the forced growth LHC experienced when he dueled RWX).



    In comparison, YG had lots of neat training and techniques taught to him but very little in terms of mental breakthroughs until he encountered the Heavy Iron Sword. Strangely enough, the advice of the GWM was the best he could muster until the big breakthrough.

    He scored many victories but it was purely the ingenuity and power of the techniques that overcame his opponents but against someone truly strong, they always ended up useless.

    Combined with the snake bladders to supercharge his internal energy, this breakthrough also pushed him instantly into the strongest subgreat. Without such an insight, I'm not certain YG wouldn't have tapered off in his growth.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 06-06-12 at 07:54 PM.

  5. #2085
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    GJ had better comprehension breakthroughs than YG did.

    His first breakthrough was when H7G imparted "simplicity resisting complexity".

    His next breakthrough was seeing and realizing how deep the formulas in 9 Yin were after watching and hearing HYS, H7G and OYF. It was sufficiently enlightening that he couldn't help but to try them out immediately.

    Then he comprehended the Big Dipper theory (which is more than just the formation) which instantly improved his energy manipulation tremendously. He was now able to freely send his energy through objects with all the peculiar properties only the highest level practitioners can use (literally only the Greats and a few of QZ7 demonstrated any of this in LOCH for instance).

    Finally he had a month of forced training of 9 Yin with OYF where he really got to think through the deep theories and apply them immediately. As he had the highest possible level as an opponent and there was no danger of getting hurt, this improved his ability far beyond what ordinary training can achieve (it's similar to the forced growth LHC experienced when he dueled RWX).
    This is true. Yeung Gor didn't start seeing opportunities such as these until he discovered the Tomb of Swords.

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    The value of Guo Jing constantly sparring and watching Greats in relatively safe environments is definitely overlooked. He would go through a huge breakthrough and get much stronger after almost ever instance. The 9 Yin helped him a ton with martial arts theory.

    Though it's likely a slight exaggeration that 3 days with Hong Qigong is like ten years, think about how many days and opportunities Guo Jing got with Hong Qigong, Zhou Botong, Ouyang Feng, Yideng, etc. He even got to watch them fight amongst themselves with weapons, music, bare handed free style and bare handed formed styles.
    Last edited by tape; 06-07-12 at 01:48 AM.

  7. #2087
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    Btw Ken,

    I've always thought that Jin Yong meant for Guo Jing to actually be slow and dim witted, but his work ethic and positive mind set allowed him to eventually 'make it'. But if we analyze his accomplishments, it is almost impossible for him to actually be that dumb or slow. Would this considered to be overanalysis of the author's intention, a contradiction in his writing, or some combination of both? Just wondering about your thoughts on this as an English teacher.

  8. #2088
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Btw Ken,

    I've always thought that Jin Yong meant for Guo Jing to actually be slow and dim witted, but his work ethic and positive mind set allowed him to eventually 'make it'. But if we analyze his accomplishments, it is almost impossible for him to actually be that dumb or slow. Would this considered to be overanalysis of the author's intention, a contradiction in his writing, or some combination of both? Just wondering about your thoughts on this as an English teacher.
    Candide and I used to talk about this: what the narrator of LOCH *says* about Gwok Jing's learning abilities and how the other characters in the story judge him is very different from what the character actually manages to accomplish in terms of mastering and using high-level martial arts.

    I'm guessing that Gwok Jing is the classic "idiot-savant." He's not smart in the conventional sense, but he does have a knack for getting at the essence of fundamental truths. I think it's essentially the quality that enabled him to master the Left/Right Hand Technique (which means Chow Bak Tung and Little Dragon Girl have this ability too); he can see through distracting b.s. and just get to heart of the matter.

    Who knows? Perhaps if Gwok Jing had lived during the DGSD timeframe, *he* would have been the one who solved Mo Ngai Tze's go game.

  9. #2089
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    The value of Guo Jing constantly sparring and watching Greats in relatively safe environments is definitely overlooked. He would go through a huge breakthrough and get much stronger after almost ever instance. The 9 Yin helped him a ton with martial arts theory.

    Though it's likely a slight exaggeration that 3 days with Hong Qigong is like ten years, think about how many days and opportunities Guo Jing got with Hong Qigong, Zhou Botong, Ouyang Feng, Yideng, etc. He even got to watch them fight amongst themselves with weapons, music, bare handed free style and bare handed formed styles.
    I'm surprised by how much these guys (Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor, specifically) can learn just by observing. You could have people such as Sa Tung Teen or the Mo Brothers watch the Greats for decades, and I don't think it'd help them very much.

    Even relatively smarter/more talented people such as Chu Tze Lau or Chu Chung probably wouldn't have gained as much as Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor did just from observing.

  10. #2090
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I'm surprised by how much these guys (Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor, specifically) can learn just by observing. You could have people such as Sa Tung Teen or the Mo Brothers watch the Greats for decades, and I don't think it'd help them very much.

    Even relatively smarter/more talented people such as Chu Tze Lau or Chu Chung probably wouldn't have gained as much as Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor did just from observing.
    He had just learned and recited the 9 Yin several times a day for the past month, so he was able to learn a lot by actually watching the theory in action. In fact, he saw flaws in their techniques and realized they were theoretically inferior to what he had just learned and was quite confused by that.

  11. #2091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Candide and I used to talk about this: what the narrator of LOCH *says* about Gwok Jing's learning abilities and how the other characters in the story judge him is very different from what the character actually manages to accomplish in terms of mastering and using high-level martial arts.

    I'm guessing that Gwok Jing is the classic "idiot-savant." He's not smart in the conventional sense, but he does have a knack for getting at the essence of fundamental truths. I think it's essentially the quality that enabled him to master the Left/Right Hand Technique (which means Chow Bak Tung and Little Dragon Girl have this ability too); he can see through distracting b.s. and just get to heart of the matter.

    Who knows? Perhaps if Gwok Jing had lived during the DGSD timeframe, *he* would have been the one who solved Mo Ngai Tze's go game.
    In my mind, if JY was asked if Guo Jing had a special knack for learning martial arts, his reply would be no, but his hard working and stubborn nature allows him to get there where other people can't. He will practice 16 hours a day to achieve what he needs to.

    I don't think he intended for GJ to have some special idiot-savant powers, but the story just needed to progress so he gained those abilities. I feel like he wanted to convey the theme of average guy pulling through with hard work and some luck, except we see too many other cases where people practice nonstop for decades and don't reach GJ's LOCH level. He wrote him as an untalented character, but the events don't support it. I was wondering if that would be considered bad writing, or we just have to take it for what it's worth.

  12. #2092
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    In my mind, if JY was asked if Guo Jing had a special knack for learning martial arts, his reply would be no, but his hard working and stubborn nature allows him to get there where other people can't. He will practice 16 hours a day to achieve what he needs to.

    I don't think he intended for GJ to have some special idiot-savant powers, but the story just needed to progress so he gained those abilities. I feel like he wanted to convey the theme of average guy pulling through with hard work and some luck, except we see too many other cases where people practice nonstop for decades and don't reach GJ's LOCH level. He wrote him as an untalented character, but the events don't support it. I was wondering if that would be considered bad writing, or we just have to take it for what it's worth.
    I think Jin Yong was deliberately lowering expectations so that he could have Gwok Jing surprise both his enemies and the audience.

  13. #2093
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    YG magically grows his arm back and also wields the HIS. Who wins?

  14. #2094
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Not a fair fight unless GJ also gets a precious weapon. Nonetheless, 9 Yin weapon theory is likely to be a shade under HIS theory.

  15. #2095
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    Guo Jing is dumb. But there are plenty if dumb guys who end up becoming great boxers or MMA figthers. It's not really about intelligence, it's about training. Guo Jing trained and trained. He worked hard, he trained hard. Which is why I don't think Guo Jing could come up with counters to martial arts or his own martial art like Yang Guo. But that doesn't mean he'll lose to Yang Guo in a fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Guo Jing is dumb. But there are plenty if dumb guys who end up becoming great boxers or MMA figthers. It's not really about intelligence, it's about training. Guo Jing trained and trained. He worked hard, he trained hard. Which is why I don't think Guo Jing could come up with counters to martial arts or his own martial art like Yang Guo. But that doesn't mean he'll lose to Yang Guo in a fight.
    His work ethic wasn't that much greater than many in wulin. I remember in XAJH, there was a sentence that said Huashan disciples practiced a minimum 8 hours a day, with many practicing more. Yue Buqun even told Linghu Chong it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for someone to go into seclusion like he was punished to for years at a time in order to progress in martial arts.

    Guo Jing worked hard, but he definitely didn't have enough time to practice as often as even crappy disciples of Huashan. His work ethic is ridiculous when compared to modern, normal folk, but not anything special at the time.

  17. #2097
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    His work ethic wasn't that much greater than many in wulin. I remember in XAJH, there was a sentence that said Huashan disciples practiced a minimum 8 hours a day, with many practicing more. Yue Buqun even told Linghu Chong it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for someone to go into seclusion like he was punished to for years at a time in order to progress in martial arts.

    Guo Jing worked hard, but he definitely didn't have enough time to practice as often as even crappy disciples of Huashan. His work ethic is ridiculous when compared to modern, normal folk, but not anything special at the time.
    I would agree with this. Gwok Jing was dedicated, but not obsessed with martial arts. Those obsessives, whose whole lives revolve around becoming # 1 in wulin, probably spend much more time training than Gwok Jing did.

  18. #2098
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    His work ethic wasn't that much greater than many in wulin. I remember in XAJH, there was a sentence that said Huashan disciples practiced a minimum 8 hours a day, with many practicing more. Yue Buqun even told Linghu Chong it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for someone to go into seclusion like he was punished to for years at a time in order to progress in martial arts.

    Guo Jing worked hard, but he definitely didn't have enough time to practice as often as even crappy disciples of Huashan. His work ethic is ridiculous when compared to modern, normal folk, but not anything special at the time.
    The difference, I think, is that Guo was a natural athlete. I can tell you that I could have trained 8 hours a day since childhood but I'll never be able to beat Manny Pacquiao in the ring. Or I could have trained in running 8 hours everyday but I'll never beat Usain Bolt in a race, etc. It always seemed to me that Guo had a talent in the physical "arts", whether archery, Mongolian wrestling or kung fu.

    P.S. I'm not saying Manny or Usain are as dumb as Guo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    The difference, I think, is that Guo was a natural athlete. I can tell you that I could have trained 8 hours a day since childhood but I'll never be able to beat Manny Pacquiao in the ring. Or I could have trained in running 8 hours everyday but I'll never beat Usain Bolt in a race, etc. It always seemed to me that Guo had a talent in the physical "arts", whether archery, Mongolian wrestling or kung fu.

    P.S. I'm not saying Manny or Usain are as dumb as Guo.
    That's the point I was touching on earlier -- JY never once described him as a natural athlete nor did martial arts ever come easy to him (compare him to someone like YG or XF). It was always as if some marvelous coincidence helped him gain some important insight, or the right combination of events lead to his growth.

    I'm not trying to downplay him for having more luck than other protagonists or anything, just analyzing what attributes JY meant for Guo Jing to represent. His accomplishments don't really reflect them, as they far surpass them, which is why it is a bit confusing to classify what attributes he has.

  20. #2100
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    That's the point I was touching on earlier -- JY never once described him as a natural athlete nor did martial arts ever come easy to him (compare him to someone like YG or XF). It was always as if some marvelous coincidence helped him gain some important insight, or the right combination of events lead to his growth.
    I think growing up among the Mongolian herdsmen/warriors helped. It was a rough lifestyle; if a man wasn't physically resilient, he wouldn't thrive in it.

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