The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[superboy]

I think GJ was 36-37 when he was at Mongolia Camp I think. Remeber that he started training internal energy at 16 with Ma Yuk. So 20 was correct.

[rabadi]

Either way 20 years is quite correct

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Arching_Hero
Ya, but the 9Yin & Quan Zhen that Guo Jing learned will make his internal power increase day by day even he did not training
while Yang Guo's Jade Heart Manual & DGKB internal power training brings a lot of inner energy to YG but not a state like GJ which his internal power increase everyday.

I agree. I tend to think that DGKB energy training is more on the physical/external side, and there is a limit for that IMHO, whereas for 9 Yin it is much more on the internal side and has much, much, much greater chance to improve over time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Anonymous]

hit: Still it didn't mentioned that YG practised QZ inner power cultivation but rather knowing the theory and application.

--- In my previous post (and "quoted passages"), it didnt "specifically" said it but the context indicates that the QZ formula is interwoven with their practice of QZ swordplay. [ie. think SOD's HuaShan swordplay] Return to my post (not yet): "Sorry, there's more but I thought the AncientTomb rule should be enough: here ya go: ..." As well as their AncientTomb rule to practice QZ arts (inner and outer/tech) first and then the JadeHeartManual. [That's the best I can do.]
.
.

hit: That reason is similiar to YG managed to beat GWM b4 16 years was because of his 'magical' heavy sword.

--- GWM also got his "magical" toy wheels.
.
.

Super: Wether he was very certain or not is just a moot point. He had already met all ofthe Greats plus GLFW and he should had taken consideration of them. No offense, but aren't your reasons sort of unfair? Have I said that it is certain? No. But the thing is, YG thought that GJ is most likely to be invincible. JY no longer made YG thought that his Iron Sword is invincible under the sky. That should mean something. Not one hundred percent yes, but another point to GJ. At least it is more based than your reason of YG might not be right. We are speculating here to try to prove whom are more powerful. As long as my reasons did not just came out of the blue, and you don't have a better reason, then it's +1 for me.

--- Before I begin, I was a little unfair with you (since you got a piece of proof, however questionable ) and I'm sorry. Before I began this better reasoning, just accept what I say next as a "step" in my logic, k? [Meaning, you dont have to believe me but "assume" it's true for now.]
--- First, Second, recall that after Mongolian camp, YG "didnt" see any more battles when he said this, so his most "recent" observation is Mongolian Camp and GJ's performance. Third, the time interval betw MongolCamp and his your proof of YG's thought is roughly 2 months (quotes are provided last), so GJ improvement is nigh zero:

“I suppose the reason why the divine condor has such tremendous strength is because it had eaten a lot of snake gallbladders of this strange specie of snakes,” he thought to himself.
[B]After over a month worth of sparring,[B] with some hard efforts, Yang Guo could actually take on the divine condor’s mighty force head to head now, and each of his stab had also become so powerful that it would whistle in the air.
(Aside: this scene was before his waterfall training; so IronSword training is roughly 1month and one or two weeks.]

(Continuing my argument) Fourth, during MongolCamp, JingYong (himself, which is more official) and not through characters' thoughts (like YG) states that GWM "approximately ties" with GJ (quote below). So, I conclude GJ "loses" the point you gave him.

ROCH, Mongolian Camp:
Fa Wang’s martial arts and Guo Jing’s martial arts were separated by the smallest of margins, Guo Jing may have had more fortunate encounters than Fa Wang but Fa Wang was twenty years older than him; he had twenty years worth of internal energy more than Guo Jing. If the two fought one on one, they would have to exchange over a thousand stances to decide who was better.

.
.

QF: Um....well, Triste is kinda wrong here then. GJ is 33 at the BEGINNING of ROCH not at hte heroes conference. YG was 13 or 14 in the beginning. At the Heroes COnference, YG was 17 or 18 years old. Four years have passed. THat would made GJ 38 or 39.
So GJ practiced 9 yin for 20 years is accurate.

--- Not sure, but if "true", then the formula of giving GJ=(age 33) actually "overly" improves GJ's_innerPower_rate [Since GJ=38 lowers GJ's innerPower rate.]
.
.

AHero: Ya, but the 9Yin & Quan Zhen that Guo Jing learned will make his internal power increase day by day even he did not training
while Yang Guo's Jade Heart Manual & DGKB internal power training brings a lot of inner energy to YG but not a state like GJ which his internal power increase everyday.

--- The formula averages/includes everything GJ uses to increase his innerPower, and this goes to YG as well. Meaning, if GJ fans like to "say" GJ has other abilities like (L/R technique's double innerPower accumulation),(QZ innerPower training),etc, then this just makes 9Yin look even "worst." GJ's average_innerPower_rate has to depend on these other techniques other than 9Yin and that still "cannot" match YG's average_innerPower_rate.
.
.

Rabad: I agree. I tend to think that DGKB energy training is more on the physical/external side, and there is a limit for that IMHO, whereas for 9 Yin it is much more on the internal side and has much, much, much greater chance to improve over time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

--- Well, it's like Beiming Shengong, who cares if it's not "constant," as long as the user can increase dramtically and if user can find ways to do this (climbing staircase trend) during his life, he's the man. What matters is that he has more innerPower at the end of his lifetime (not being "prematurely" ended of course).

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Anonymous
--- Well, it's like Beiming Shengong, who cares if it's not "constant," as long as the user can increase dramtically and if user can find ways to do this (climbing staircase trend) during his life, he's the man. What matters is that he has more innerPower at the end of his lifetime (not being "prematurely" ended of course).

Nope, what I'm saying is that DGQB's training is much more external, and so it has limitation, while 9Yin is much more continuous in increasing.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Anonymous
GWM also got his "magical" toy wheels.

Therefore it is not fair to judge GJ based on his "magical" horse, right?

[rabadi]

We do not know how many portion of DGQB's cultivation technique that YG gained. It could be just a portion, but it could also be as high as 99%. Nobody knows. We also do not know how good was DGQB himself (see Greatness of Dugu). Besides, as the Arching_Hero already stated:

Ya, but the 9Yin & Quan Zhen that Guo Jing learned will make his internal power increase day by day even he did not training while Yang Guo's Jade Heart Manual & DGKB internal power training brings a lot of inner energy to YG but not a state like GJ which his internal power increase everyday.

There is a limit to what an external practice can gain, while the internal practice of 9Yin is more continuous. YG may gain energy in shorter period than GJ, but in the long term GJ will win.

[superboy]

--- Before I begin, I was a little unfair with you (since you got a piece of proof, however questionable ) and I'm sorry. Before I began this better reasoning, just accept what I say next as a "step" in my logic, k? [Meaning, you dont have to believe me but "assume" it's true for now.]
--- First, Second, recall that after Mongolian camp, YG "didnt" see any more battles when he said this, so his most "recent" observation is Mongolian Camp and GJ's performance. Third, the time interval betw MongolCamp and his your proof of YG's thought is roughly 2 months (quotes are provided last), so GJ improvement is nigh zero:

That at least would mean that GJ's martial arts was good enough to make YG think that he is likely to be supperior to all. Also need to add that YG did not underestimate GLFW. Because 16 years later when QQR was injured badly, he commented only three person can hurt him that badly with a palm. GJ, GLFW, and himself. We can tell that he felt that GLFW's martial arts was very high, but still under GJ. And GLFW is 20 years older than GJ too. He improves like only half the speed of GJ.

--- GWM also got his "magical" toy wheels.

The Iron Sword was much more magical. Which one is better, a short wheel made from gold, or a heavy indestructible sword.

--- Not sure, but if "true", then the formula of giving GJ=(age 33) actually "overly" improves GJ's_innerPower_rate [Since GJ=38 lowers GJ's innerPower rate.]

GLFW's internal energy were said to be about the same as OYF and H7G at the Hero Gathering. GJ tied with OYF 4 years ago, and were probably be able to beat GLFW after 1000 stances at the Mongolia Camp. So there is no inconsistency.

--- The formula averages/includes everything GJ uses to increase his innerPower, and this goes to YG as well. Meaning, if GJ fans like to "say" GJ has other abilities like (L/R technique's double innerPower accumulation),(QZ innerPower training),etc, then this just makes 9Yin look even "worst." GJ's average_innerPower_rate has to depend on these other techniques other than 9Yin and that still "cannot" match YG's average_innerPower_rate.

GJ just found out in ROCH right? So how does that make him look bad since he never used it to train during the 13 years.

--- Well, it's like Beiming Shengong, who cares if it's not "constant," as long as the user can increase dramtically and if user can find ways to do this (climbing staircase trend) during his life, he's the man. What matters is that he has more innerPower at the end of his lifetime (not being "prematurely" ended of course).

Like in real life, external chi can increase faster than cultivated chi faster in the start, but loses out later on. GJ got the highest class of Taoist energy too.

[superboy]

Originally posted by -NSX-
External meaning gaining brute strength? How was DGQB cultivation technique limited when YG internal energy was only a portion of what DGQB had gained?

The fact that DGQB energy cultivation technique was slightly higher than 9 yin was that:

GJ 20 years of 9 yin is slightly < GWM when they first fought.
YG 16 years of DGQB's method >= GWM at the end of ROCH.

DGQB technique > 9 yin.

Being unfair again. GJ had about 16 years of 9 Yin that time while GLFW had 40 years of cultivation with his Dragon Elephant thingy.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by superboy
Like in real life, external chi can increase faster than cultivated chi faster in the start, but loses out later on. GJ got the highest class of Taoist energy too.

That's the statement I wanted to say.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by -NSX-
9 yin = continuity so does Ice Bed.

Not really. Unless he found colder ice bed.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by -NSX-
One year of ice bed = 16 years of cultivation. Can 9 yin top that?

That's the BS said by LCY. After all, as Ken Cheng pointed out the other day, XLN did not have DGSD-level of internal energy.

[superboy]

YG >= GWM who had 56 years of energy cultivation.

YG that time had 23 years of internal cultivation. Although a bit less than half of GLFW's internal energy, it doesn't differ that much from GJ.

[superboy]

Originally posted by -NSX-
One year of ice bed = 16 years of cultivation. Can 9 yin top that?

Yes, YG slept on it for at least 3 years, and I don't see him having that much energy then. By the way, it's 10 times, not 16. I think maybe if the Ice Bed says it improves by 4 years, it won't be that unbelieveable. And also, u cannot just measure internal energy by year, since quality is even more important. Seems to me that the rate of ICe Bed's improvement were at best only as good as multiple average martial art trainer training at once. Aveantage compare to GJ's younger day's cultivation, but not 9 Yin.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by rabadi
That's the BS said by LCY. After all, as Ken Cheng pointed out the other day, XLN did not have DGSD-level of internal energy.

Ooppss... shouldn't have used rude word like that. Let me revise: That's the exaggerating statement said by LCY.

Don't want to get banned because of using rude words

[Arching_Hero]

Originally posted by rabadi
That's the BS said by LCY. After all, as Ken Cheng pointed out the other day, XLN did not have DGSD-level of internal energy.

Ya, if the ice bed really = 16 years cultivation, then Yang Guo sholud be gaining 48 years of internal energy if he lived in the tomb for 3 years!!!!Then there should been no problem dealing with LMC when he grew up but no, he can't even defeated LMC!!

[superboy]

I think YG was 16/17 something durng the hero gathering. So he probaly was in the Tomb for around 3 years.

[Arching_Hero]

I didn't know how much the rate of YG's internal energy he improve after he trained in the ice bed but I only know that GJ who learned 2 years of internal energy training of Quan Zhen can learned all 18 stances of HL18Z in three months. This is a very high rate because someone in DGSD (if I'm not wrong) learned HL18Z for almost 20 years but paralysed because did not have enough internal energy.

[rabadi]

Let's just face it, YG's cultivation trainings *require* external objects, such as ice bed, sea waves / waterfall, snake gall bladders, etc. While with 9 Yin, you only require yourself to practice it. I take it as a one plus point for 9 Yin. Of course I'm not saying that 9 Yin is invincible

[superboy]

If we were to use GJ=OYF as a standard to measure how much he improved with 9 Yin, I think it is unfair to compare him with YG from the start too the end of ROCH. We all know that GJ were taught by the Freaks since a very young age. But his internal energy training didn't started until the age of 16 when Ma Yuk started to teach him QZ methods. While YG were first exposed to OYF's Toad Stance cultivation method at the age of 13. Later on he also got his QZ method, Ice Bed, and Jade Heard Manual to train his internal energy until he were 16. Therefore, it should be fair to say that YG does have a better start than GJ from young up to 16. GJ was 18 when he finally laft Mongolia with his two years of internal energy. YG at that time, had already had all the things mentioned above plus a little of 9 Yin. But now we are mainly using the rate of GJ's 9 Yin improvement rate, which he hasn't really started practicing until near 20. Therefore a comparison of GJ from young to YG might not be accurate since we knew that GJ's prime training after LOCH was 9 Yin, and YG's was his Torrent training and snake bladder.