The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[rabadi]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
...all of u YG haters just assume it will just stop.

My goodness... I already stated many times that I do not hate YG.

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
how where when? even after everytime they met they were stated as equal.

The first time, it was stated that GWM was injured inside while GJ was not. The second time, GWM with friends gang up on GJ, if you want to say they are equal, fine by me.

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
so what how many have learned QZ inner power while "doin nothing" no one at the end of ROCH could match a great. Even ZBT who had practiced it for along time proboally= to YG and GJ

Who talks about QZ inner power?

[Ken Cheng]

There's one item that seems to suggest that the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't quite Gwok Jing's equal, at least not at the time of the fight near Kublai's base camp. During that fight, the Golden Wheel Monk had the assistance of Wan Hak Sai (briefly, until Gwok Jing removed him from the equation), Siu Seung Tze, Lui Mor Singh, and Ma Gorn Jor (again, briefly until Yeung Gor removed him from the equation), but until Yeung Gor's interference distracted Gwok Jing from defending himself, the Golden Wheel Monk plus those four other fighters (three of whom were above the level of the second-generation Cheun Jen Disciples) were unable to gain any advantage over a Gwok Jing who didn't even have 100% of his inner power going (he had expended some correcting Yeung Gor's fake fire deviation the night before). From this information, I gather that the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't quite Gwok Jing's equal at the time.

[duguxiaojing]

GWM was "injured" inside because he took the full force of the blow without stepping back to disperse the energy had Gj done the same he would have felt pain but GWM was too proud to be forced back and took it. From that one palm attack and despite the novel clearly stating that they are equals sepertated by the smallest margins u assume that

it was clear that GJ was a better fighter than GWM

[rabadi]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
GWM was "injured" inside because he took the full force of the blow without stepping back to disperse the energy had Gj done the same he would have felt pain but GWM was too proud to be forced back and took it.

What Ken stated above wasn't enough? If GWM did the same with GJ and stepped back to disperse the energy, then he was equal to GJ, because a good fighter should know when to hold or step back to avoid injury.

[duguxiaojing]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng There's one item that seems to suggest that the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't quite Gwok Jing's equal, at least not at the time of the fight near Kublai's base camp. During that fight, the Golden Wheel Monk had the assistance of Wan Hak Sai (briefly, until Gwok Jing removed him from the equation), Siu Seung Tze, Lui Mor Singh, and Ma Gorn Jor (again, briefly until Yeung Gor removed him from the equation), but until Yeung Gor's interference distracted Gwok Jing from defending himself, the Golden Wheel Monk plus those four other fighters (three of whom were above the level of the second-generation Cheun Jen Disciples) were unable to gain any advantage over a Gwok Jing who didn't even have 100% of his inner power going (he had expended some correcting Yeung Gor's fake fire deviation the night before). From this information, I gather that the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't quite Gwok Jing's equal at the time.

it would have been no diffrent had GWM fought GJ one on one and then the others jumped in enyways the fight that day had alot of factors goin GJ way. You know how u YG haters claim that YG was lucky in defeating GWM due to his menatlity. well Gj was lucky in this case that all the fighters were more concerned with a title then strickly fighting as a team and defeating him.

[duguxiaojing]

If GWM did the same with GJ and stepped back to disperse the energy, then he was equal to GJ, because a good fighter should know when to hold or step back to avoid injury.

He "knew" to step back its a basic principle he chose not to to save face. Had he felt that he would not have been able to take the pain or that he would suffer sevre intenrnal injury he would have stepped back.

[duguxiaojing]

Yes it does. GWM internal power was higher than the Greats and ZBT at the end of ROCH. In theory his should be better than GJ too since in those three years we see GJ rate is pretty much the same as the Greats and ZBT. If YG could defeat GWM, shouldn't he be able to defeat GJ too?

not necessairly if he was greater then the other greats it would only be by a slight margin. GWM may or may not have higher energy there is not proof that shows that he isnt he is about equal to them.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
He "knew" to step back its a basic principle he chose not to to save face. Had he felt that he would not have been able to take the pain or that he would suffer sevre intenrnal injury he would have stepped back.

I don't know about you, but for me that's not a characteristic of a good fighter.

To -NSX-:
Both OYF and GJ were injured in their meeting, yet in 3 years GJ was able to recover normally. Of course that is not "average." By the middle of the novel, ZBT was slightly > GWM as you said so. So, in theory by that time GJ's energy also already > GWM's. At the end of ROCH, GWM *maybe* have more energy than ZBT and other Greats but that's because ZBT and other greats are already past their prime time, while GJ should be at his prime.

IT was not even stated that YG's energy > GWM's energy.

[superboy]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
thats your opinion i dont see any proof that GJ is stronger because obviosly YG has proven that his inner power has kept on increasing and all of u YG haters just assume it will just stop.
What time line are we talking about at the end of ROCH? YG inner power had grown by huge levels and u guys just assume it will stop? thats pathetic proof really not even proof. Its just that YG fans do all the agressice work.to quote superboy Gosh, I'm so tired of people's unsuccessful attempts to prove why GJ is not superior, I hope I can see reasonable reasons with basis why YG should be superior. So far, don't see

I never said nothing about YG stop improving, since I could care less what happened out of the novel. We knew that GJ died like in his mid 60s or so anywayz. We are not YG haters, but thing is, no one really give much reason why he is actually better than GJ. YG was only roughly equal to a Great, not much better. Okay, in terms of internal power and techniques, can anyone give a reason why YG could be better? Neither side will benefit if there isn't enough information to debate about. Maybe every can make an outline of their reasons?

[superboy]

Yes it does. GWM internal power was higher than the Greats and ZBT at the end of ROCH. In theory his should be better than GJ too since in those three years we see GJ rate is pretty much the same as the Greats and ZBT. If YG could defeat GWM, shouldn't he be able to defeat GJ too?

Ain't your theory sort of even more baseless than mine though? GLFW's internal energy were around the level of the Greats at the start, but surpassed them in terms of raw power at the end. So how does that prove that Gj is just pretty much of the same?

[rabadi]

YG > GJ because Ken Cheng is a racist and superboy is a YG hater j/k

I'm seriously thinking of dropping out of this thread. It is quite tiring and may cost me my employment (since I access the site from workplace ). Okay, for peace sake, can we just say GJ = YG by the end of ROCH?

[Raden Wijaya]

In SPCnet we're free to debate/argue!
As long as it makes sense!
PS: I don't hate YG, It's just that he's annoying sometimes.!

[duguxiaojing]

GJ backed up three steps, didn't he? GWM was arrogant and did not backed up; therefore, he felt the pressure.

No i think he flipped backwards since he was in the aire at that time.

YG > GJ because Ken Cheng is a racist and superboy is a YG hater j/k

when u put it that way it sorta makes sense na man jk but really i never said SB is a YG hater..do u belive him 2 be?

I don't know about you, but for me that's not a characteristic of a good fighter

If being arrogant means that your a shitty fighter(GWM was not arrogant when he was in danger i seriously doubt that he would have took the pain had it been too high of a price) then ZBT must be below YG witout iron sword since he was stupid enough to attempt to grab GWM wheel b4 YG intercepted it. Does that even make sense? not realy right? They did stupid things proboally put i dont think you can call one weaker when his martial arts are equal after matching one stance and one incident.

I never said nothing about YG stop improving, since I could care less what happened out of the novel. We knew that GJ died like in his mid 60s or so anywayz. We are not YG haters, but thing is, no one really give much reason why he is actually better than GJ. YG was only roughly equal to a Great, not much better. Okay, in terms of internal power and techniques, can anyone give a reason why YG could be better? Neither side will benefit if there isn't enough information to debate about. Maybe every can make an outline of their reasons?

Personally i do belive Gj to be slightly stronger than YG to around his equal. What i dont belive is that he has a massive increase of power all of the sudden "becasue he gains power by doing nothing" and just jumps ahead of the greats and YG. since YG inner power seems to be increasing faster than GJ. If were talking about the end of ROCH then YG power starting to increase more slowly would not make sense because he would have died a brutal death without Ironsword (even with iron sword actually)
yet at the least couple of chapters he can match (a stronger)GWM and some greats without iron sword and purely through techique or inner power. So i do not see any signs of his power dropping. Gj inner power increases at a steady rate he is able to match the greats due to an initial surge of power and then he seems to level off to a constant steady rate(this is in beggining to mid of book though we dont know where he stands at the end) i dont see how he could be significantly more powerful than YG. I do belive he is slightly stronger to being equal to YG and ZBT.

GLFW's internal energy were around the level of the Greats at the start, but surpassed them in terms of raw power at the end.

for the record this would not make him stronger just because his IP is more aggresive. if that were true then there would be proof YG is the greatest in ROCH

Okay, for peace sake, can we just say GJ = YG by the end of ROCH?

YES finally some ground gained on one hater just kidding man yeah ill agree wit that i do belive GJ is stronger really but not to the level that some people state. Gj>YG>ZBT>other greats+GWM increasing by slight margins thats how i c it. Really no concreate proof though just specualtion and beliefs workin here wat about u guys?

[superboy]

Anywayz, for the YG supports, may u guys please give some reasons or an outline that YG should be stronger? I thought it should be able to help this debate move further.

[superboy]

for the record this would not make him stronger just because his IP is more aggresive. if that were true then there would be proof YG is the greatest in ROCH

But Yg's is alos an agressive type, and is equal to GJFW. If we say that GLFW's internal energy may not be Greater, then wouldn't that say YG's energy ain't too? I thought GLFW's internal energy might possibly be stronger.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
when u put it that way it sorta makes sense na man jk but really i never said SB is a YG hater..do u belive him 2 be?

You've got to ask SB himself for that I don't know about him being a YG hater (and personally I do not think he is a YG hater), but he is without doubt one of the most GJ loyal supporters

I know I am a GJ supporter myself, but let me assure you one more time that I do not hate YG. ROCH was my first JY novel that I read, and it made a good impression, although later on when I read LOCH I simply prefer GJ more... (and then there's the time I read DGSD ). Anyway, perhaps because of the misunderstanding arisen yesterday, I mean the terms "you YG haters" in some of your comments, I sorta made that sarcastic remark. Sorry for that, no heart feeling, okay? Gosh, gotta admit, this debate is quite tiring, I spent hours yesterday viewing the thread while actually I should be working. Not a good example for my co-worker, and certainly my boss would not appreciate it

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
If being arrogant means that your a shitty fighter...

We just have a different opinion on definition of a good fighter, that's all.

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
Personally i do belive Gj to be slightly stronger than YG to around his equal. What i dont belive is that he has a massive increase of power all of the sudden "becasue he gains power by doing nothing"...

I think you misunderstood me. Yesterday I just described a situation in which I believe GJ would gain the upperhand against YG. I don't think I stated GJ would gain a massive increase of power all of the sudden "because he gains power by doing nothing".

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
YES finally some ground gained on one hater

Hey, one more time I am not a YG hater
BTW, let me repeat one more time: for a "GJ hater", you certainly like GJ a lot to use his picture as your avatar just kidding.

[philip]

Both OYF and GJ were injured in their meeting, yet in 3 years GJ was able to recover normally. Of course that is not "average." By the middle of the novel, ZBT was slightly > GWM as you said so. So, in theory by that time GJ's energy also already > GWM's. At the end of ROCH, GWM *maybe* have more energy than ZBT and other Greats but that's because ZBT and other greats are already past their prime time, while GJ should be at his prime.

how does ZBT>GWM make GJ’s energy > GWM? Where suggests that GJ’s power = or > ZBT’s energy?

Also, one more thing…how do you know when is a person’s prime?

YG was only roughly equal to a Great, not much better. Okay, in terms of internal power and techniques, can anyone give a reason why YG could be better? Neither side will benefit if there isn't enough information to debate about. Maybe every can make an outline of their reasons?

we know for sure that YG is pretty much = ZBT. You claim that ZBT is significantly better than the other greats, and yet claim that YG is roughly equal a Great? Which “great” are you referring to? Or is the “great” ZBT? B/c then, you cannot claim that GJ is well beyond a great b/c there is no evidence that even suggests that GJ has surpassed ZBT.

Okay, for peace sake, can we just say GJ = YG by the end of ROCH?

yep, I’d say if they battled their hearts out…both would either die or be so severely injured (that 9Yin can’t even help) and eventually die. Kinda like H7G and OYF.

There's one item that seems to suggest that the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't quite Gwok Jing's equal, at least not at the time of the fight near Kublai's base camp. During that fight, the Golden Wheel Monk had the assistance of Wan Hak Sai (briefly, until Gwok Jing removed him from the equation), Siu Seung Tze, Lui Mor Singh, and Ma Gorn Jor (again, briefly until Yeung Gor removed him from the equation), but until Yeung Gor's interference distracted Gwok Jing from defending himself, the Golden Wheel Monk plus those four other fighters (three of whom were above the level of the second-generation Cheun Jen Disciples) were unable to gain any advantage over a Gwok Jing who didn't even have 100% of his inner power going (he had expended some correcting Yeung Gor's fake fire deviation the night before). From this information, I gather that the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't quite Gwok Jing's equal at the time.

YG was roughly able to match GLFW + 3 others at the QZ temple (not to mention he has XLN lying on him, which decreases his mobility)…does that mean he would roughly equal GJ at the time? Even GLFW admitted that he cannot defeat the three others only w/ one stroke each…does it mean YG>GLFW at the time? I doubt it. So, just b/c GJ’s taking on more fighters doesn’t make him better than GLFW.

[duguxiaojing]

GJ hater", you certainly like GJ a lot to use his picture as your avatar just kidding.

i like GJ as much as YG its just that thete are far more gj supporters so i go the other way. I never even read LOCH and i still got love for GJ.Hes awesome on the adaptions

But Yg's is alos an agressive type, and is equal to GJFW. If we say that GLFW's internal energy may not be Greater, then wouldn't that say YG's energy ain't too? I thought GLFW's internal energy might possibly be stronger.

Maybe, i see them as even from all the battles i dont think agresive energy will assure victory.

yep, I’d say if they battled their hearts out…both would either die or be so severely injured (that 9Yin can’t even help) and eventually die. Kinda like H7G and OYF.

i second that

[rabadi]

Originally posted by philip
how does ZBT>GWM make GJ?s energy > GWM? Where suggests that GJ?s power = or > ZBT?s energy?

Also, one more thing?how do you know when is a person?s prime?

When I read the novel I always got that impression that GJ > ZBT. GJ knew full 9 Yin, perhaps even better than ZBT ('cause ZBT did not know the Sanskrit part, if I'm not mistaken). GJ knew L/R Hand Technique, and although perhaps not as good as ZBT in Vacant Fists but he also knew that too. In addition to Dragon Subduing Palm, younger age, better fighting mentality (not playing-type like ZBT, again this is a personal opinion, you may disagree of course), I'll say GJ > ZBT. GJ also practiced 9 Yin tediously, while ZBT although benefitted from 9 Yin tremendously as well *may not* practice it openly/tediously (what's the correct word...) because of his promise not to use 9 Yin (although we all do know he occasionally broke this promise now and then ).m So, by middle of the book, my impression is that GJ should already be > ZBT. As for the person's prime, well HYS was close to 90. Not sure about 1D, but he was probably around the same age. ZBT was close to what? 80 or 90 as well? Anyway, other than the exceptional Z3F, stamina tends to decline with age (actually we also do not know Z3F stamina when he was 100+). Even DGSD's WYZ was struggling with his old age. In general, however, IMHO person's prime should be middle age. GJ happened to be at his middle age (around 55?) by end of ROCH. So, in my opinion that is his prime.

Originally posted by philip
yep, I?d say if they battled their hearts out?both would either die or be so severely injured (that 9Yin can?t even help) and eventually die. Kinda like H7G and OYF. [/B]

Okay, I can accept that

[superboy]

we know for sure that YG is pretty much = ZBT. You claim that ZBT is significantly better than the other greats, and yet claim that YG is roughly equal a Great? Which “great” are you referring to? Or is the “great” ZBT? B/c then, you cannot claim that GJ is well beyond a great b/c there is no evidence that even suggests that GJ has surpassed ZBT.

The 'roughly' and 'significant' term is just of different standards. When a person doubt that ZBT is really much better than a Great, I'll say significantly, since he should be captable of beating them. On YG, I said that he is roughly equal to a Great, simpily to say that he wasn't out of their league. But you should get my point that I just gave different standards, but ZBT and YG seems about the same to me other than ZBT being an old man and might lose stamina first. Also, I thought GJ should have surpassed ZBT simpily because 9 Yin's energy is much superior to his QZ method. And ZBT never practiced 9 Yin's internal energy, nor had he ever knew the untranslated part. Of course, this is another speculation, but since there is no solid proof, don't you agree that the most possible and reasonable hypothesis is the best an only option?

Okay, can somepne give an outline or something of why they think YG is stronger?