The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[duguxiaojing]

how would that solve anything since there is no solid proof to back either arguments up? YG fans are not goin to just belive GJ is stronger beacause every one belives so when theres no proof.

IT"S NEVER HAPPENED, SO THERE'S A CHANCE GJ COULD DEFEAT GLFW FASTER THAN YG DID!

If u count the stances b4 he had used full strenth of sad palms. But after with 4 stances? Damn......that would be something....not likely but possible......

[hitman]

Didnt he z3f also mention YG name in DGSD when comparing their inner powr to his masters?

As far as I remembered,no.Z3F only mentioned of GJ and his master JY.So I think Z3F was more impressed with GJ inner power compared to other Greats.

I doubt it in QQR case it was implied that 1deng may be able to defeat QQR if he used all his strenth or that he had a slight advantage with his technique. Whne JY compared GWM and GJ he never stated that one may have been able to defeat the other.when he compared them he said the were seperated but the slightest margins and made no reference to who may win so the fight could go either way. It was stated that it would take over a thousand stances to determine a winner but no clue of who the winner would be.

I believe in LOCH something similiar was described about QQR compared to the Greats in the same way with GWM and GJ.

but were not talking about muscles here were talking about inner power which has no limits theres always one mountain higher look a sweeper. YG inner power continued to grow at an unbeliveable level even after 16 years why would it stop all of a sudden? He's not training hes muscles(actually he proboally is just not the way your describing) hes training his inner power why do you belive their's a limit did Dugu have a limit? Especially at 36 where YG is proboally 14-24 years from his prime. Where's the proof that physically training inner power has a limit?

I can't remeber where I got this idea but it was traditionally believe external training of internal energy will give a faster boost than internally but in long terms internal training will be better once the external training has done its magic.

Yes it does. GWM internal power was higher than the Greats and ZBT at the end of ROCH. In theory his should be better than GJ too since in those three years we see GJ rate is pretty much the same as the Greats and ZBT. If YG could defeat GWM, shouldn't he be able to defeat GJ too?

It was never mentioned that GWM was better in terms of inner power than the Greats.GWM and YG was mentioned as fierce and abundant but lacked the refinement compared to the Greats.

Who says that the wave training is inferior to 9Yin? JY's narrative claims that YG had pretty much reached DGQB's level in that interlude. DGQB was peerless in his time. Hell, he was compulsively looking for a worthy foe.

I thought it was the Heavy Sword training that was mentioed furthermore nobody knows how good DGKB opponents might be maybe he would be very if he was in ROCH era.

If 9Yin was the ultimate technique why does JLFW brush HR off without a second glance after 16 years? HR also has the complete 9Yin with the Sanskrit part too.

In terms of inner power it is useless to compare HR with GJ and YG.GJ's 2 year training in QZ seems to be much better than all 3rd generation QZ students training for most of their life.

When ZBT fought JLFW he observed that JLFW's power was unmatched. At this point ZBT had fought with a post 16 year YG. Later YG is able to match power vs. power against JLFW this seems to indicate that the YG vs. ZBT fight was just about technique without much inner power. Consequently it might indicate that YG is equal to ZBT in terms of techniques but YG is greater than ZBT in terms of inner power.

It was described as that YG's inner power was fierce and overbearing which is similiar to GWM but it doesn't mean it is better than ZBT since his inner power is different type which is more reserved.

ZBT's L/R was giving YG problems before YG started using Sad Palms. At that point ZBT managed to tie technique-wise with YG while using L/R.

It just prove that each need to be at their best to determine who is better.

Why did it take ZBT, 1D, HYS, HR, Ying Gu, CY, LWS and 2 condors to deal with JLFW if he's such a pushover? By some people's reasoning any Great alone could've done it -instead it took a triple simultaneous attack against JLFW (distacted by HR's claim that GJ and YG were here too no less) to neutralize him.

In LOCH ZBT,OYF and QQR ganged up against GJ yet GJ managed to fend them off to escape unscathed.GJ that time was much significant weaker compared to either one.So it doesn't mean that GWM is really that *strong* that the only way for Greats to beat him is by combining.It is rather GWM was beaten much more quickly when all of them combined.One on one is not certain who would be better.

YG's sword broke vs. JLFW might just be an indication of how powerful DE Skill level 10 is. It seemed that YG wanted to test his inner power vs. JLFW the first time around so he intentionally hit the wheels head on. The second time around YG was already injured, and getting somewhat desperate from defending GX.

YG was having the advantage over GWM when using his unnamed palms.YG used these same palms on ZBT but YG couldn't get the advantage.YG was losing when ZBT attacked with L/R hand until YG had to use Sad Palm to regain his footing.So what this proves?GWM was weaker in terms of techniques than ZBT.YG used the right tactic to battle GWM.YG was superior to GWM in terms of technique while was not against ZBT.

[Raden Wijaya]

Then what's the vote/poll for? Is it just a joke?
I don't think so! Usually (in every matter) the majority wins!

[Temujin]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
how would that solve anything since there is no solid proof to back either arguments up? YG fans are not goin to just belive GJ is stronger beacause every one belives so when theres no proof.



If u count the stances b4 he had used full strenth of sad palms. But after with 4 stances? Damn......that would be something....not likely but possible......

That's the problem. There's lack of proof, we have to keep making assumptions and try to connect loose references from other fights and comments, since neither have fought even in a sparring mode before, even GJ vs. GWM fights were never AT THE LEVEL YG vs. GWM ending fight.

About GJ finishing the fight faster than YG, off course it's hardly possible if it's a life-threatening situation. But would we never know ? Not really.... we will keep arguing like this forever.

[duguxiaojing]

I thought it was the Heavy Sword training that was mentioed furthermore nobody knows how good DGKB opponents might be maybe he would be very if he was in ROCH era.

Parts of his skills turned mediocre fighters into top tier. His "pet" or companion which ever could have been a top fighter in ROCH.
After six years of training YG believed that he had not reached Dugu's level with only wooden..(i dont think he ever did)
Yg described his sword art as divine.Even Hes tomb impressed the hell outta YG. Even if he was bsing about the Final stage of sword without a sword his wooden sword stage already propelled a young Yg to the level of the greats(and he may of not have mastered it). At 36 years of age using Dugu's training YG inner power shocekd 1deng who is generally regarded as having the highest inner power of all the greats (exception possibly YG and GJ). Even if he was BSing(dugu) about the final stage he would at the very least be at the greats and YG level. IF he wasnt bsing about the sword with out a sword stage, and could use grass and leaves as his sword and be able to defeat iron sword with a leaf his ability would have been god like.

[duguxiaojing]

Then what's the vote/poll for? Is it just a joke?

i think so its common knowledge that ther are far more YG fans here than GJ fans. One person on this board mentioned that in a singapore message board there are more YG fans than Gj so does that mean in the us GJ is stronger but in singapore YG is stronger?

There is no proof to back that Gj is stronger than YG and vice versa simply because a majority 60 belives so does not make it true since its opinion based due to lack of evidence. At one time we all belived the universe revovled around the earth. Every 1 has their own opinions u cant discredit others when the subject is up in the air because the majority belives a certain way.

YG was having the advantage over GWM when using his unnamed palms

hehe even that is debatable is this y all the experts dropped outta this topic?

[Temujin]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
i think so its common knowledge that ther are far more YG fans here than GJ fans. One person on this board mentioned that in a singapore message board there are more YG fans than Gj so does that mean in the us GJ is stronger but in singapore YG is stronger?

There is no proof to back that Gj is stronger than YG and vice versa simply because every belives so does not make it true since its opinion based due to lack of evidence. At one time we all belived the universe revovled around the earth.

Maybe, we should email Jin Yong and ask him what he thinks

OR

since the old man lives in Australia, maybe some members who lives down in Australia could give him a call or knock on his door and just ask him personally... so this problem will be solved for good.

I doubt Jin Yong will have anything to say though, since these controversies and arguments are what make us (readers) to keep buying and re-reading his novels.

The old man obviously has a good business mind

[duguxiaojing]

Hehe thats what my dad says too youve jong joe Jing yong go gie.(you've fallen into JY trap) but yeah i doubt he would ever go there i mean a million people would have asked by now. Actually when may father was reading the book as a kid he said him and his friends never debated who was stronger.......so really whats the point of reading the book?jk

[philip]

Now I got the answer. H7G's and OYF's internal energy were said to be not below that of GLFW that time, but GJ still was said to be slightly inferior. It may mean one thing. Why GJ fought OYF that time, his internal energy was probabaly not exactly on par with him. Probably inferior. But it could be because of his 9 Yin consepts, modified HL18Z, youth, he actually got to tie with OYF in an actual battle. If therefore, it is possible that Gj at age 35-36 is still slightly inferior to GLFW in terms of internal energy. Lets say Gj was 10% or so weaker than GLFW in internal energy. But GLFW had 20 years more cultivation, while GJ only got half the time he got, and has earilier life was with QZ energy, not 9 Yin. So GJ's 9 yin improvement should be twice as fast as his if there is no problem with my reason.

oh? So now GJ’s internal energy is not on par w/ OYF, meaning his internal energy is < OYF? Then, how would u know that GJ “caught” up w/ the greats by that time? GLFW’s internal energy was still above GJ’s during the hero’s feast…does it mean his internal energy is still below OYF since his internal energy is no less than GLFW’s? meaning, by that time, GJ still hasn’t caught up to the other greats in 18 years? How then, can u be sure he’s > ZBT by the end of ROCH, since ZBT is “significantly” better than the other greats?

It should be in every edition. There has always (as far as I know) been a scene in ROCH when Yeung Gor tried to murder Gwok Jing in his sleep (avenging his father and trading for the Passion Flower Poison antidote).

I don’t think YG put in 100% effort into “killing” GJ, did he?

In terms of inner power it is useless to compare HR with GJ and YG.GJ's 2 year training in QZ seems to be much better than all 3rd generation QZ students training for most of their life.

no, GJ’s 2 yr QZ + many years 9 yin is better than 3rd generation QZ students. GJ’s 2 years QZ alone was even weaker than Yang Kang.

In LOCH ZBT,OYF and QQR ganged up against GJ yet GJ managed to fend them off to escape unscathed.GJ that time was much significant weaker compared to either one.So it doesn't mean that GWM is really that *strong* that the only way for Greats to beat him is by combining.It is rather GWM was beaten much more quickly when all of them combined.One on one is not certain who would be better.

it was a 4 way fight…u can also say GJ, QQR, and ZBT ganged up on OYF, GJ, OYF, and ZBT ganged up on QQR, etc

[superboy]

oh? So now GJ’s internal energy is not on par w/ OYF, meaning his internal energy is < OYF? Then, how would u know that GJ “caught” up w/ the greats by that time? GLFW’s internal energy was still above GJ’s during the hero’s feast…does it mean his internal energy is still below OYF since his internal energy is no less than GLFW’s? meaning, by that time, GJ still hasn’t caught up to the other greats in 18 years? How then, can u be sure he’s > ZBT by the end of ROCH, since ZBT is “significantly” better than the other greats?

If H7G and OYF was on par with GLFW, then that's the only possibility. But you can still see that Gj at tjhat time was still very vlose to GLFW in sense of internal energy. Slightly weaker may say maybe 10% or 15% for max maybe? Even if that is so. If we do the math, GJ is still improving twice as fast as GLFW. And more than twice as fast as the greats. Although ZBT in terms of fighting ability is better than the great, we can sort of see that his internal energy isn't much better right? So if that's his distance from the Greats, even though it's significant, it would not logically be as good as Gj if his 9 Yin internal energy did not suddenly slow down to on the Great's rate.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by philip
it was a 4 way fight?u can also say GJ, QQR, and ZBT ganged up on OYF, GJ, OYF, and ZBT ganged up on QQR, etc

Hmm... I do not think it was a 4-way fight. OYF would not help ZBT and GJ to fight QQR, and QQR would not help ZBT and GJ to fight OYF. I think it was more like GJ and ZBT vs OYF and QQR, only that occasionally the naughty ZBT would *help* OYF and QQR to test how GJ would take the attacts.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by philip


I don’t think YG put in 100% effort into “killing” GJ, did he?

He certainly did. When Yeung Gor's mind was resolved enough to move his knife-wielding hand to kill Gwok Jing, he was sure enough for his own satisfaction that Gwok Jing had murdered his father, and that he was taking righteous vengeance. If Yeung Gor hadn't resolved himself to this, he would not have made the move. Once he was committed, he attacked with everything he had. Anything less would have been suicide.

[philip]

If H7G and OYF was on par with GLFW, then that's the only possibility. But you can still see that Gj at tjhat time was still very vlose to GLFW in sense of internal energy. Slightly weaker may say maybe 10% or 15% for max maybe? Even if that is so. If we do the math, GJ is still improving twice as fast as GLFW. And more than twice as fast as the greats. Although ZBT in terms of fighting ability is better than the great, we can sort of see that his internal energy isn't much better right? So if that's his distance from the Greats, even though it's significant, it would not logically be as good as Gj if his 9 Yin internal energy did not suddenly slow down to on the Great's rate.

dunno about you...but 10-15% is alot, esp on high levels. i thought u claimed taoist internal energy to be "better" as u practice longer...and now ZBT isn't that much better than the greats in terms of internal energy? GJ is improving twice as fast as the greats, while YG improves twice as fast as GJ, thatz still not helping ur GJ argument.

Hmm... I do not think it was a 4-way fight. OYF would not help ZBT and GJ to fight QQR, and QQR would not help ZBT and GJ to fight OYF. I think it was more like GJ and ZBT vs OYF and QQR, only that occasionally the naughty ZBT would *help* OYF and QQR to test how GJ would take the attacts.

i'm pretty sure OYF and QQR matched up somewhere too...plus it was so dark, they probably can't tell who they're going to face anywayz (untill they really match)

one more qn: how old was OYF at the end of ROCH?

[rabadi]

Originally posted by philip
i'm pretty sure OYF and QQR matched up somewhere too...plus it was so dark, they probably can't tell who they're going to face anywayz (untill they really match)

one more qn: how old was OYF at the end of ROCH?

It may be dark, but it should not be too dark because at least ZBT was able to distinguish the four of them when he occasionally *help* OYF and QQR to attack GJ.

I don't know how old OYF was in the middle of ROCH when he died. I think Athena made age estimation of the Greats long time ago. I'm not sure if the thread is still around, though.

Perhaps Noodles who is translating ROCH can help?

[hitman]

hehe even that is debatable is this y all the experts dropped outta this topic?

At least this explains to me the inconsistencies JY keeps making throughout ROCH regarading how good the fighters are.

it was a 4 way fight…u can also say GJ, QQR, and ZBT ganged up on OYF, GJ, OYF, and ZBT ganged up on QQR, etc

Partly ture but GJ himself have to withstand attacks from OYF,QQR and ZBT with L/R hand for more than 30 strokes.GJ was considered that time much weaker than them yet he managed to held off them.Compared to GWM who was equal to the Greats and lasting more or less the same stance it seems GJ was more impressive.

[duguxiaojing]

Here's something else to chew on in comparing Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk (somehow, the conversation has momentarily gotten away from Yeung Gor):

When YG tried to murder GJ Gj woke up and YG tried to book it before Gj grabbed him he did not engage in a fight( and if he did he would have been slaughtered) so in other words he was attempting to get away and not fight GJ.

[duguxiaojing]

Partly ture but GJ himself have to withstand attacks from OYF,QQR and ZBT with L/R hand for more than 30 strokes.GJ was considered that time much weaker than them yet he managed to held off them.Compared to GWM who was equal to the Greats and lasting more or less the same stance it seems GJ was more impressive.

i dont know what happened whne GJ fought QQR and OYF or when ZBT fought OYF and qqr but GWM was up against 2 of the top fight five fighters in the condor trilogy 3 if u count WYS a top tier fighter and a high level fighter as well as two eagles.and hes mind was distracted the odds wre stacked up pretty high i mean 1deng alone would of been a heck of a match throw in ZBT and GWm was pretty much a goner.

[darkcser]

I can't remeber where I got this idea but it was traditionally believe external training of internal energy will give a faster boost than internally but in long terms internal training will be better once the external training has done its magic.

You might be thinking of the Hua Shan sword vs. chi argument. btw: YG's training increased his inner power. YG's blows are powerful because of his inner power -not because he's a big muscle bound goon. It's just that his inner power is raw, and lacks refinement.

YG was having the advantage over GWM when using his unnamed palms.YG used these same palms on ZBT but YG couldn't get the advantage.YG was losing when ZBT attacked with L/R hand until YG had to use Sad Palm to regain his footing.So what this proves?GWM was weaker in terms of techniques than ZBT.YG used the right tactic to battle GWM.YG was superior to GWM in terms of technique while was not against ZBT.

As stated earlier it seems that YG was attacking JLFW with full inner power and techniques at the beginning. In the fight with ZBT, YG made a deliberate decision to not contest inner power. So YG's full inner power without Sad Palms has an edge vs. JLFW, YG's partial Sad Palms with limited inner power equals ZBT.

It was never mentioned that GWM was better in terms of inner power than the Greats.GWM and YG was mentioned as fierce and abundant but lacked the refinement compared to the Greats.

It was mentioned that ZBT was afraid of JLFW's power, and dared not to met it head on. Since JLFW's power didn't seem to be due to his hulk-like muscles I'd have to imagine that it's due to his inner power. It was mentioned that JLFW was winning against 1Deng in an inner power contest until he became distracted.

I thought it was the Heavy Sword training that was mentioed furthermore nobody knows how good DGKB opponents might be maybe he would be very if he was in ROCH era.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say...

From Noodle's translation in the ROCH Excerpts thread:

One day, Yang Guo was getting deeply engrossed in the sparring sessions and slashed the wooden sword with all his might. The divine condor called out and leapt to the side. Yang Guo could not withdraw the force of his sword in time and it struck a tree. The wooden sword broke but the tree was severed in two.
Yang Guo held the broken sword handle and thought, “This wooden sword is light and fragile but it was still able to cut a tree; this is all down to the internal energy in my hand. If in the future the tree breaks and the sword don’t then I won’t be too far off the divine skill of senior Dugu.”

Spring went and autumn came, months flowed by. He trained his sword arts in the sea’s waves night and day, whatever the weather. The sound produced from the wooden sword was getting louder and louder where eventually it was able to produce great hues of noise but after sounding for a few months, the sound from the wooden sword got lighter and lighter until no more noise came from it. Another few months passed and the sword produced sound again. This process of going from soft to loud and loud to soft repeated itself seven times. Eventually, he was able to produce whatever sound he desired, loud or soft. By the time he reached this stage, he counted his fingers and realised he had been by the sea for six years.

By this time, when Yang Guo trained in the sea’s waves with the wooden sword in his hand, the wind generated from his sword could repel the waves and even the divine condor with its frightening strength could last not more than three stances of the wooden sword. At this point, he realised what the Sword Demon Dugu Qiubai must have felt all those years ago, “With a sword art such as this, who on earth can stand up to it? No wonder senior Dugu felt lonely and buried his sword away in the deep valley.” He then thought, “If brother condor here didn’t witness how senior Dugu trained his sword skills, how would I have been able to obtain such a divine skill? I call him brother condor but in reality it is my kind master. When it comes to age, I don’t know how old it is, I’m afraid that I can even call it grandpa condor, granddad condor.”

During his training by the sea, Yang Guo would often ask the passengers on passing boats about a Divine Nun of the South Sea Island. He has asked thousands of sailors and passengers but there was nothing. He knew that seeing Xiao Long Nuu before the sixteen years was up was going to be a nigh on impossible task.

One dark, windy and rainy day, something stirred in Yang Guo’s heart, he placed the wooden sword in his waist and covered himself with his tattered gown. The man and condor made their way west and from then on, made their way back into central plains and roamed the lands south of the river Yangtze.

To paraphrase the above: one day YG struck a tree my accident with a wooden sword. Tree was chopped down, wooden sword broke. He continued to train after this event, and made significant progress. At this point some 7 years into the separation (6 by the sea and 1 in the cave I think) he might have reached the wooden sword stage of DGQB. He seemed satisfied with it, and leaves with a wooden sword at his waist.

Next when we see YG he is without a sword I believe -wooden or otherwise. In fact outside of carrying a sword for the purpose of Jade Maiden upon his reunion with XLN he is normally weaponless. When it comes to fighting he tends to use whatever is available: a hairpin, spears, flag banners, rocks, etc. He's able to improvise effectively... perhaps closing on the realm of Wu Jian Sheng Yo Jian.

[Athena]

This is and shall always be a very controversial topic in "Jinyongology." I have tried to resolve this mystery many, many times ago, however I have failed utterly. Even with the third version, I tried to find a clue which could lead to a conclusive answer to this debate. In spite of my searching, everything is in vain.
I won't reveal to you where I stand. I do think that people have the tendency to undermine Guo Jing, because he doesn't fight any experts in the final period in ROCH.
Nevertheless, it would be naive to think that his training would stagnate. Saying that Guo Jing is busy is in my opinion bunkum. Both Imperial Priest Jinlun and Yang Guo could find time in their busy schedules to train, why wouldn't Guo Jing have the time?
Training soldiers, of course. However in those 16 years there were some good military commanders who provided good help. I am not talking about the wortless governor of Xiangyang but of for example the general Wang Jian who made an appearance in the novel. Yang Guo was establishing a worthy reputation, correcting a lot injustices in the world. Good for him! But still mangaged to train. The Imperial Priest was the high priest of the Mongolian empire, his responsibility was to lead all the lamaist followers in the empire. He had both political and religious obligations, however he had time to train too.
So, it is most unlikely that Guo Jing would not have the time to train.

The reason why people tend to think of Guo Jing and Golden Wheel Monk as equals is because the two of them exchanged strokes at the Heroes Meeting of Dashengguan. In the novel it was stated that Golden Wheel Monk's internal power was slightly higher than Guo Jing (Golden Wheel Monk was somewhat older than Guo, more years of internal development), while Guo Jing's martial arts skills are superior to Golden Wheel Monk. The exchange of strokes only showed their internal power, which was more or less equal. We could not see how much higher Guo Jing's martial arts skills were compared to Golden Wheel Monk's. At the Mongolian camp it became clear that Guo's martial arts were much higher than Golden Wheel Monk's, and although they were more or less equals in the field of internal power, in actual combat Guo Jing would prove superior. We only have to look at the results to get a conclusion, like in the case of Dragon Girl. At Chongyang Palace she held her own against Golden Wheel Monk and the others with her Combined Maiden/Quanzhen Sword Style. Is her internal power higher than Khubilai's warriors? No. Can she defeat the four men? No. But is she a better fighter than the four villains at this point of the story? Yes. Only someone with superior fighting skills/techniques would be able to do so. The same goes for Guo Jing at Mongolian camp. The same goes for Yang Guo with the beggars (although Yang Guo was not as experienced as the beggars, the martial arts he learned are much more advanced than those of the beggars). IN MY LOWLY OPINION Guo Jing has made tremendous progress and has surpassed the Four Greats at the Mongolian Camp.

Another point, when Yang Guo heard reverend Yideng talking from afar to Yinggu he was greatly impressed. He knew that he did not have such abundant and pure energy, however Yideng had not such a raw, robust internal power.
So:
-Yang Guo had robust, raw internal strength.
-Yideng had pure and profound internal power.
When Guo Jing saw the jade hairpin which was used to kill Ni Moxing. He commented to Huang Rong that to his knowledge only two persons had such a powerful, robust energy.
Huang Rong said yes, and added that unfortunately their teacher Qigong was gone and it was not Guo Jing himself.
Furthermore we have the comment of Huang Yaoshi, when he said that The 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms of Guo Jing were comparable to the Melancholic Sad Palms of Yang Guo.
Again, the robust and powerful are used to describe it.
At the end of the novel, we are introduced to reverend Jueyuan of Shaolin. Immediately he is displaying his internal power by calling out from afar:"Would the borrowers of the scriptures, please reveal themselves?"
A comment by the author that this shout was incredibly powerful, pure and abundant but not aggressive or raw. It is as impressive as the roar of Yang Guo.
After seeing Jueyuan moving up the mountain with Zhang Junbao under his arm, Yang Guo commented to himself that this monk's internal energy so abundant, profound similar to Guo Jing, Yideng etc.
I take it that Guo Jing's internal power has the element pureness and profound too from that comment.
So:
Guo Jing's internal power is not only pure and abundant but also robust and powerful.

In the end, I think they both exceeded Zhou Botong and others are were roughly equals.

[superboy]

Yup, can't disagree with Athena, one of the best expert out there.