The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[superboy]

GJ was never said to have internal power equal to OYF. A person can still win in a battle if their internal energy are close to their opponent. GJ was able to at least tie with a GLFW with his wheels. That could suggest that he may possibly be better that time. And although it wasn't stated for sure thant GJ can defeat GLFW after 1000 stances, most us us believe that GJ will win by seeing the way he battle. While GJ might not be able to do that to OYF. It was never stated that GJ was equal to OYF in terms of internal energy that time, we just knew that they fought to a draw in a battle. If GJ's internal energy increases at the rate before, why would his IQ suddenly slow him down?

And can anyone answer me when in LOCH was YG borned? Because GJ was said to be 30 at the begining of ROCH, and YG was 13. Of course that would mean that YG was 12 in western style. And QQJ also said that he haven't seen him for ten years. So was he 30 or 33 at the start?

[superboy]

GJ was 33 years old at the start of ROCH.

GWM can kill GJ because he has slightly higher internal power than GJ. Even though GJ is higher in term of skills than GWM, in a fight to the death GWM will match internal power with GJ and he will win for sure. Why doesn't he battle internal power with GJ in a normal fight? Because he knows the result for him would be devastating, he knows he will be screwed too.

GWM = higher internal power = win

Sorry, but I don't think this is very convincing. And also, it was said that GLFW only got slightly more internal energy. It doesn't work that simple like who has stronger power who win in Dragon Ball Z. And are you sure that GJ was 33?

[superboy]

Deleted.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Athena
Again, I just feel people undermining Guo Jing's abilities.

I agree, Athena. Tell me about it... *sigh*

[superboy]

Over 1000 stances would take GJ from several hours to defeat GWM if he can that is. YG can do better than that. Once he realized that sadness was the key element to sad palms, he released several palms and thereby defeated GWM. YG can defeat GWM with several palms (several moves) while it will take GJ at least 1000 moves to defeat GMW (and it's questionable if he can defeat GWM).

GJ is pale in comaprison with YG and chances are GJ is more likely to die in the hand of YG.

Will it take several hours? I don't know, but GJ will probably still defeat the equipped GLFW at the end. It is doubtful that YG will be able to defeat GLFW within a few moves if his Sad Palms were working during the whole battle. Remember that GLFW was blinded by anger that time. Although I do not disagree that YG will beat him, it still won't be that easy. And why do you think that gap between GLFW and GJ will always be the same? GJ did improve twice as fast. You did not take it to account that GJ will improve further and think that YG will automatically be stronger. Isn't that uncomprehensive reasonings?

Are you saying that GJ at the begining of ROCH has lesser internal power than OYF? When he met GWM his internal power was slightly lesser than GWM who at that time was pretty much equal to the Greats in the field of collective chi. Isn't 9 yin all about energy cultivation? Shouldn't GJ internal power be better than GWM (who was at the level of the Greats at that time) over the period of 3 years after the fight with OYF? The answer is NO.

9 Yin is the best manual in the Condor Trilogy, but JY's novels doesn't have much magic manual where you became super powerful after just practicing it. GJ is still a bit better than GLFW in a fight while he tied with OYF that time. Also, remember that he fought an empty had OYF to a tie, while can possibly defeat a GLFW with weapons.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by -NSX-
Once he realized that sadness is the key to sadpalms, he became invincible.

No, he did not. He became powerful enough to win that particular battle under those particular circumstances. An argument loses much of its credibility if the term "invincible" is thrown around too casually. I'm reluctant to characterize even the Janitor Monk as "invincible", let alone Yeung Gor. The Greats of L/ROCH were each separated from the others in overall martial arts ability by the slightest of margins.

[superboy]

Originally posted by -NSX-
YG was just warming up at first. Once he realized that sadness is the key to sadpalms, he became invincible. He was capable of releasing several palms and defeted GWM while you said it would take GJ over 1000 moves to defeat GWM if he can.

GLFw was blinded by anger that time. And also, we don't know did YG just descovered that you need to be sad. Plus, even if he did, it sitll won't improve the power because of recognition. GJ was in his 30s that time, while GLFW was in his 50s. That would mean that GLFW progress slower. Even if YG does progress faster than GJ during the 16 years, he still won't be able to catch up by the end of ROCH.

[superboy]

YG is a very dependant fighter. Either on his sadness or his Heavy Sword. And I don't think YG only got slightly less inner power than GLFW. There is a pretty significant gap in this part proabably. And also, YG had never used his Iron Sword for 16 years. And before the 16 years, even after YG learned the sword art, he still thought that GJ's martial arts is probably unsurpassed in the world. YG was still around Great level at the end of ROCH. GJ caught up to that level at the begining of ROCH. GJ with 9 Yin imrpve greater than the Greats. And this time there was another 20 years for him to train. He should have been superiro to YG.

[superboy]

I don't see how your theory is fact, since there is no fact of who is stronger at the end. OYF=GJ in a battle, but there where no comments that they where equal in terms of "internal energy". GLFW was slightly superirior to GJ in terms of internal eenrgy 3 years after the begining of ROCH, but GJ had better skill. At least equal to GLFW with his wheels, and possibly better. GJ tied with barehand OYF at the start, while can tie with a GLFW with weapons and possibly beat him. So if you say that there is no improvements, there isn't enough proof. The Greats cultivating faster than GJ is only your own theory. While no one say that it's impossible, it still seems unlikely since there is no reason why. It was never stated that GJ and OYF had the same internal energy in the first place, so how can that be fact? Also, we knew that ZBT seems to be strogner than GLFW, but it was never mentioned because of internal energy.

[superboy]

Why doesn't it matter? It did took GJ 13 years to be able to draw with OYF barehand. 3 years later he fought an equiped GLFW to at least a draw or better. Even if GJ have slightly less internal energy than GLFW, what can it really say?

[superboy]

Why is that so? GJ was able to last fairly well with a Great a t the end of LOCH when his internal energy was nowhere close. His youth and modified palms can well explain why he tied with OYF. GLFW being slightly stronger in internal power doesn't mean that he suddenly slow down to the Great's level.

[philip]

And what you mean long enough for Gj to use the wave theory? He can use it in a blink of a second. And I really don't see any internal enrgy competition like OYF's and H7G's. And when did I say it is really significant, although there should be a gap. I am not the person to judge how much in terms of percent that GJ had less than OYF that time. At best I can only give a personal hypothesis, but there is no assurance to it. So I don't think you really want to know do you? ^^() If a person's internal enrrgy is close to their opponent, then it won't be apparent in a battle unless it turns ito a lock that's long enough to show, and Gj's and OYF's was pretty close.

why would GJ bother using the wave theory to "conserve" or make his energy last longer if the palm match was only for one spilt second? and really, it's pretty obvious that GJ & OYF's palm match (or rather HL18Z vs. Toad match) was longer than one second....they felt each other's energy coming forth, fell through a roof, etc.

OYF cannot have a tremendous amout more of internal energy than GJ cuz unlike GLFW's case, Toad Stance should be near XL18Z technique-wise, so GJ doesn't have so much advantage in technique. And what did u suggest before? GJ having 15% less internal power than OYF at the time? 1st, that's highly unlikely, but even if we calculate it out, if (for calculation sakes) we set GJ = GLFW=OYF in terms of internal energy by the time of the hero's feast, then w/ about a 5 year difference, GJ gains about a average of 3% on OYF. Now if u say internal energy is suppose to be constant and never slowing, then for the 13 years gap between LOCH and ROCH, GJ gained an average of 39% on the Greats. That, means GJ gained 54% on the greats during LOCH. So, let's say during his 17 years training w/ greats gave him 20% catch on a great (although it's probably much less than that), then during GJ's 3 years adventure, he gained about 34% on greats, making an average of 11.333% per year, which is 3.777 times greater than his improvement better the begining of ROCH and the hero's feast...which definitely proves that his internal energy improvement SLOWED down

[superboy]

I am not very good with math...........so I only got the outline of what you said. And where did you get all the percentage? Anywayz, I never like to count GJ's progression rate with LOCH's span in them because we knew later that GJ practice solely with 9 Yin. GJ placed the theory in his palms, so I think it just comes naturally when he uses it. So it can be used pretty quickly unless if he choose otherwise. Also, GJ is a whole lot younger than OYF, and we learned from Athena that GJ's internal energy is robust. Therefore with youth, robust energy, and modified palms, it gives GJ the advantage even if his internal energy is lower. Also, we can also take into acount that H7G's and OYF's internal energy might actually been a bit stronger than they would normally have since they got some 9 Yin. H7G used his portion of 9 yin to improve his internal energy. And one thing, I never suggest GJ has 15% less internal energy than OYF. And the was was only a 3 year at the hero feast since I think YG was 16 that time. Very unlikely that Gj will slow down to the Great's level of internal energy by the end of ROCH with 9 Yin. The cultivation is a lot more high class than the Greats. And YG also commented that he thougth only Yi Deng's and GJ's internal energy can compare to Juan Yuan. Z3F also seems to that of GJ highly, but never thoguth that he might not be at the level of YG.

[sixdays]

no one is doubting the original rate of GJ's internal energy growth. you've established that quite nicely. the problem is, how can you prove that it will continue this way?

in the same way, YG experience TREMENDOUS growth using DGQB's methods, yet we see hit clearly hit a "wall" where he could not progress any longer until he trains in the ocean for 6 years. experience would lead me to believe that most martial artists hit a "wall" where their growth slows considerably --- and not all are fortunate enough like YG to learn a new training technique. what makes you think that GJ can continue this rate of growth? an abstract saying by Z3F that all taoist energy grows without training? he's not talking about 9yin here. ZBT saying that taoist energy multiplies over time? well, ZBT's energy is not only based on taoist QZ, but actually 9yin as well. so why isn't he much more powerful than even GJ, not to mention the other Greats? after all, ZBT has been practicing 9yin for longer than GJ has.

there is no proof that 9yin can keep up the same linear growth. there is only a little sentence that refers to ALL taoist energy. if all kungfu in one category shared the same characteristics, then any palm technique would be the most yang technique in the world just because HL18Z is...and we clearly know that's not true.

so until someone can prove that GJ continues to grow at a spectacular rate instead of hitting a wall where he slows down, i will tend to believe that his growth mirrors that of the Greats --- that is, improvement over 30-40 years, but not spectacualar improvement over a short period of time.

[duguxiaojing]

Your reasons to why GJ is supperior to YG is slightly edge on your belief rather than facts.

Facts:

GJ = OYF at start of ROCH

3 years later

"GJ < GWM in term of internal power. GWM at that time has about the same amount of internal power as the Greats and slightly less than ZBT. You said that GJ with 9 yin should cultivate more chi over the years. In three years the Greats increase a bit more than GJ."


Matial arts wise GJ was AT LEAST EQUAL so why would it matter if GWM was SLIGHTLY stronger? Where's your proof that the greats increased more greatly than GJ?

"When YG fought with both HYS and ZBT at the end of ROCH, he wasn't amazed about their martial arts, but when he fought with GWM he was amazed at how strong GWM had become and GWM also thought the same way about YG too. From this we can see how powerful GWM was at the end of ROCH. "


Who said he wasnt amazed by WYS and ZBT? WYS was able to match YG and ZBT was the strongest opponents YG palms ever faced YG was forced to put everything he ahd into that fight. He was amazed at how strong GWM had become due to the agressive palms and fist he threw. GWm fought ZBT and 1deng to a standstill theres no proof that hes stronger from his coomment of WYS we can also conclude that WYS is around ZBT and 1deng's level. No ones arguing how strong GWM is by the way but from the way u put it u make him seem like his stronger than the rest of the greats which from the battles between YG,ZBT and WYS can be indirectly proven false.

"If you look at what GJ had gained over the three years period you can see that his rate slightly slower than the Greats. The probability of GJ surpassing the Greats over the next sixteen years is quite low. "

How do you see this?

"I am not stating that the 56 years old GJ won't stand a chance against the 36 years old YG, but his chance of winning is low and likely to die in YG's hand."


These are not facts they are opinions. HOw do u know where GJ stands at end of novel?

[duguxiaojing]

Your reasons to why GJ is supperior to YG is slightly edge on your belief rather than facts.

Facts:

GJ = OYF at start of ROCH

3 years later

GJ < GWM in term of internal power. GWM at that time has about the same amount of internal power as the Greats and slightly less than ZBT. You said that GJ with 9 yin should cultivate more chi over the years. In three years the Greats increase a bit more than GJ.

Matial arts wise GJ was AT LEAST EQUAL so why would it matter if GWM was SLIGHTLY stronger? Where's your proof that the greats increased more greatly than GJ?

When YG fought with both HYS and ZBT at the end of ROCH, he wasn't amazed about their martial arts, but when he fought with GWM he was amazed at how strong GWM had become and GWM also thought the same way about YG too. From this we can see how powerful GWM was at the end of ROCH.

Who said he wasnt amazed by WYS and ZBT? WYS was able to match YG and ZBT was the strongest opponents YG palms ever faced YG was forced to put everything he ahd into that fight. He was amazed at how strong GWM had become due to the agressive palms and fist he threw. GWm fought ZBT and 1deng to a standstill theres no proof that hes stronger from his coomment of WYS we can also conclude that WYS is around ZBT and 1deng's level. No ones arguing how strong GWM is by the way but from the way u put it u make him seem like his stronger than the rest of the greats which from the battles between YG,ZBT and WYS can be indirectly proven false.

If you look at what GJ had gained over the three years period you can see that his rate slightly slower than the Greats. The probability of GJ surpassing the Greats over the next sixteen years is quite low.
How do you see this? I

I am not stating that the 56 years old GJ won't stand a chance against the 36 years old YG, but his chance of winning is low and likely to die in YG's hand.

These are not facts they are opinions.

[philip]

I am not very good with math...........so I only got the outline of what you said. And where did you get all the percentage? Anywayz, I never like to count GJ's progression rate with LOCH's span in them because we knew later that GJ practice solely with 9 Yin. GJ placed the theory in his palms, so I think it just comes naturally when he uses it. So it can be used pretty quickly unless if he choose otherwise. Also, GJ is a whole lot younger than OYF, and we learned from Athena that GJ's internal energy is robust. Therefore with youth, robust energy, and modified palms, it gives GJ the advantage even if his internal energy is lower. Also, we can also take into acount that H7G's and OYF's internal energy might actually been a bit stronger than they would normally have since they got some 9 Yin. H7G used his portion of 9 yin to improve his internal energy. And one thing, I never suggest GJ has 15% less internal energy than OYF. And the was was only a 3 year at the hero feast since I think YG was 16 that time. Very unlikely that Gj will slow down to the Great's level of internal energy by the end of ROCH with 9 Yin. The cultivation is a lot more high class than the Greats. And YG also commented that he thougth only Yi Deng's and GJ's internal energy can compare to Juan Yuan. Z3F also seems to that of GJ highly, but never thoguth that he might not be at the level of YG.

Okay, to put it simply…GJ=OYF at the beginning of ROCH (whether it’s due to youth, internal energy, technique, it doesn’t matter. Fact is that victor will be hard to be decided). 4/5 years later, he’s still equal to GLFW, who is about the same level as OYF & H7G (therefore, indirectly making GJ still equal to OYF). And technically, during the 14/15 years that GJ has been learning 9 yin/XL18Z, he improved tremendously, so the improvement in 4/5 years should be about 1/3 of his improvement before. If GJ’s improvement rate really doesn’t slow down, by the time of the hero’s feast, he should’ve been quite capable of defeating GLFW (who = OYF by speculation at Mt. Hua), but instead he is still said to be equal. Therefore, it’s pretty obvious that GJ’s average improvement rate is much much slower than his average improvement rate before ROCH. And, if he doesn’t make that much progress on the greats in 4/5 years, who said he will make a significant surpass on the greats by the end of ROCH that would bring him “out of their league”?

[sixdays]

xiaojing, who are you referring to? i'm getting sort of confused...the quote button is always good here...

but really, the question here is this: how good is elephant dragon wisdom dexterity (EDWD)? i believe that it is much better than we give it credit for. tibetan kungfu has always been lesser in the eyes of central plains martial artists, and rightly so --- after all, our central plains (GJ and YG, the Greats) masters in ROCH are clearly dominant over all but the BEST of the best in tibetan history. i call JLGS the best of the best, because no one had ever reached his level of EDWD (edward?), and lived to tell about it. also, EDWD was the best kungfu of all time in tibet (so JY says), so this should be saying something. chen jialuo uses a tibetan kungfu and beats up all of the shaolin temple in his time...and even though this is not the greatest indicator, it does point to the fact that tibetan kungfu isn't too shabby...if it is behind central plains, then only by a little. i think we as central plains ppl were blessed with better fighters as well, and that's why we look better...

anyways, to my main point. superboy stated in an earlier post:

"if GWM is a Greats level fighter and he improved tremendously over the 16 years, why can't GJ do so also?"

this is simply because GWM was practicing a kungfu that he had not yet mastered. level 10 is obviously crazy as hell, because it allows GWM to match up with YG as well as fling burning beams all over the place. it gives him the crushing power of 1000 jin punches, etc as well as increasing his internal energy. he had a breakthrough in this martial art, and that's why he was much better.

similarly, YG had a breakthrough in training with first snowflakes (moving the sword so fast that snow couldn't touch him) and then in the ocean (beating back the FREAKIN WAVES, people...have you seen the perfect storm? yeah, try and calm that with a wooden stick.) therefore, it makes sense that YG would also increase dramatically like GWM, because he gained a completely new technique.

speaking of breakthroughs, OYF and H7G also experienced some. JY writes that H7G took parts of the 9yin to heart, and that's why he improved dramatically. OYF kept practicing reverse 9yin, so even though it was incorrect it still gave him erratic and powerful skill. even without 9yin, HYS is able to be on par with YG's techniques (i didn't say overall level here, ppl...i just said techniques). if 9yin really is the best kungfu of all time, shouldn't HYS and 1deng be below the other Greats? yet ZBT fared no better against GWM than 1deng did...the only reason why ZBT lasted without getting hurt was his vacant fists. HYS, on the other hand, could injure GWM with the pebbles where no one else could. therefore, it shows me that the Greats are not far off from each other. how could this be if 9yin improves dramatically over time?

i don't see GJ go through a new "breakthrough" in ROCH as these other heroes have, though. some integration, yes --- fusing 9yin and HL18Z was a genius move, and i really like the idea of that kungfu (wish YG had it). probably my favorite palm kungfu, because YG's sadpalm is just so weird...

but i digress. we see GJ "diligently practicing 9yin over the 13 years at peach blossom island", as the beginning of ROCH states. by this time, he is the match for a Great --- but only when MASTERING 9yin, which is something the other Greats have never done. if you think about it, GJ has a clear advantage because he has the whole manuscript --- yet he is only able to progess a BIT above the Greats (from one move from OYF in the beginning, he was injured for 7 days...i don't call that being able to defeat OYF easily). basically, GJ's 9yin is as good as it will ever be...the only thing he can really improve in is internal energy.

speaking of 9yin, i must say that there is no convincing argument that shows it is able to increase more rapidly the older you get. remember, a big part of your arguments are that 9yin will increase your power even when you DON'T train it...

why then is ZBT not MANY times more powerful than the other Greats? he's:

- older (more training time)

-supposedly turning more youthful with his hair turning black again (more stamina. though i wouldn't put it past him to use hair dye )

-has volumes I AND II of 9yin --- even without the WHOLE part of volume I, H7G is able to progress amazingly. how much more so should ZBT, seeing as he had a greater piece, as well as the techniques? ZBT must have mastered volume I's internal energy techniques, or his 9yin demon subduing fist would have no power behind it. without fully understanding volume I, he probably couldn't even use the techniques in volume II without going into fire deviation, or simply not being powerful with them (examples: what HYS said about volume II, and also the weak showing of ZZR's 9yin white bone claw in HSDS).

even with all of this, it cannot be said that ZBT is in a new league above all the other Greats. yes, he could probably defeat them...but not until after a long battle. so what makes you think that GJ will suddenly surpass the Greats by a lot?

the reason why GJ caught up with the Greats is because he MASTERED 9yin, something that no one else (apart from HS, probably) was able to do because they simply couldn't read sanskrit. that was GJ's breakthrough, just as GWM's breakthrough was lvl10 EDWD and YG's breakthrough was wave training. therefore, if there is no conclusive evidence that YG and GWM would improve after THEIR breakthroughs, then there is no evidence that GJ would improve after his breakthrough (mastering 9yin) either.

[philip]

chen jialuo uses a tibetan kungfu and beats up all of the shaolin temple in his time...and even though this is not the greatest indicator, it does point to the fact that tibetan kungfu isn't too shabby...if it is behind central plains, then only by a little. i think we as central plains ppl were blessed with better fighters as well, and that's why we look better...

chen jiao luo used tibetan kungfu? since when?

but i do agree...non-chinese/central plain kung fu should be quite credited. as they say, shaolin is origin of kungfu in china, and where did shaolin originate from? the west. also, jiu mo zhi wasn't such a shabby fighter either, neither is OYF (who is technically persian). dali should be considered as another country also.

[sixdays]

chen jialuo's teacher was called the knight of the heavenly pool, and he lived in the western reaches of china, close to the muslim areas. i believe the guy was based in kunlun.

also, when chen jialuo was trapped in the lost city with princess fragrance and huo qing tong, he picked up what he THOUGHT was a poem/song describing a butcher cutting meat. but when he followed the erratic movements that the butcher was doing in the song, he learned a new kungfu. with it, he was able to match the best fighters of the era --- fire hand judge zhang of wudang, and the 2nd best fighter in shaolin.