View Poll Results: Who was the superior fighter?

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  • Gwok Jing/Guo Jing

    138 58.47%
  • Yeung Gor/Yang Guo

    90 38.14%
  • Not Sure

    8 3.39%
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Thread: The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

  1. #41
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    Super:
    The stamina is a problem, since over usuage can kill you. But Yi Deng seems to think that he was better in his prime. Maybe your martial arts may just stop progressing when you get into an old age like in the 70s.
    --- Z3F keeps on improving, it's just the wasting of it during battle that was "quick."
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    Hit:
    HR progress cannot compared to the likes of GJ and YG. Both GJ and YG are a much better martial arts prodigy than her.
    --- There's no denying that she "is" a prodigy; look at GX. Her battle with OYF proves that she can still keep up, and she "is" a candidate for "great" status in end of ROCH. Meaning, she probably "did" improve during the 16years, just as she did before ROCH [10years in PeachIsland]. During Hero's Feast, a conversation betw HR and GJ (Passage):
    ROCH:
    Guo Jing said, “You have always planned everything to the last detail, this idea would have been good but with Fu Er’s temper and martial arts, won’t wanting her to marry a weak scholar be a bit harsh for Fu Er? Tell me, how would she respect him? In my opinion such a couple would not get one well with each other.”
    Huang Rong laughed and said, “You’re shameless! So the reason why we are such a good couple is because you have better martial arts than me. Hero Guo, come, come, come, let’s have a duel.”
    Guo Jing laughed and said, “Fine, chief Huang, give me what you’ve got.” A light sound was heard as Huang Rong lightly patted down on Guo Jing’s shoulder.
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    Hit:
    Furthermore it is the bamboo stick that GWM [lv10] broke not Dog Beating Stick.
    --- Agreed. HR probably just used a "bamboo stick"; however, it's interesting how she got the "bamboo stick" in the first place.
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    Hit:
    If the Greats can do it,why not GJ who at end of ROCH is around 56 should be at the peak of his martial arts progress and definately better martial arts theory in 9 Yin.
    --- First, GJ is "adventuring" and is an active character in the LOCH novel; meaning, the definition of "adventuring" is to gain experience and enlightenment, much like YG during the novel. That's why GJ/YG can go leaps and bounds, becuz we "see" them do it. When they are inactive, like Inactive party members or NPCs (NonPlayerCharacter in RPG), then they "logically shouldnt" gain any experience. JY's reasons for "inactive" characters is "babysitting"/"war". [For example, XLN during 16years. Symbolically she "mirrors" HR.] Besides, no free lunch for GJ.
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    Hit:
    As for the final battle between YG and GWM during the first 200 strokes,YG did made the right tactic to battle against GWM.GWM main advantage is his strong internal energy but his techniques are inferior if compared to other Greats.It doesn't made sense if people only analyze GWM advantage compared to other Greats in his battle but yet neglect that his apparent disadvanatge for this discussion.
    --- It's worthwhile to use GWM'S technique disadvantage; however, GWMlv10 proves that technique-wise [during his battles] he is not inferior. Look at however, with his head back and he still "intercepts" YG's swordstrokes. He was able to use his hearing to his advantage. The greats reach a point where technique becomes less and less [but not totally un-] important.
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    Tape:
    We can see that GJ ~= OYF and GLFW ~= GJ so GLFW ~= OYF
    --- Not with Superboy's theory: GWM is not equiv to OYF.

  2. #42
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    --- Z3F keeps on improving, it's just the wasting of it during battle that was "quick."
    We don't know that. He might be gaining more and more knowledge, but his old age sure isn't gonna get more stamina.
    Not with Superboy's theory: GWM is not equiv to OYF.
    No, I believe that t was mentioned that H7G and OYF has about the same internal energy as GLFW. That was when H7G and OYF messed up the 5 Ghosts with their internal energy. And it was mentioned that they combined to have twice the power of the 16 years ago GLFW.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    I have something that supports why ZBT is stronger than GLFW. Although the GLFW of 16 years later had improved dramatically, it still took him a whole day to defeat Qiu Qian Ren, which is around the same level of Yi Deng other from the messed up adaptations. Yi Deng 16 years ago was lost to QQR without using YYZ. And it was said that if Yi Deng use YYZ and TSG combined, he might be able to defeat QQR after a long battle. And GLFW too beat QQR only after a long battle. Although GLFW's palms is stronger than the blast of Yi Deng, never-the-less, they are very close to each other in terms of martial arts. But that is only if Yi Deng use hi best technique YYZ. But we saw that ZBT was quite captable to at least fight GLFW to a draw even without his L/R technique. So it is likely in my opinion that ZBT would have had the advantage if he used the L/R technique.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    Was L/R hand that powerful ???
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  5. #45
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    It allows you to sort of fight like two person. Like one mind controlling each of your arm.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    I know, if Yi Deng couldnt defeat QQR easily, and GLFW couldnt either. Do you think ZBT with LR hand could defeat QQR faster than they did ?
    I think YD, GLFW, and ZBT should be at the same League.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    We knew that ZBT is superior to the other Greats, but just not sure by how much. Maybe this may give us a better idea.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  8. #48
    Junior Member Condor83's Avatar
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    Was L/R hand that powerful ???
    It is not a martial art in itself. It just lets you use two different techniques with your left and right hand. GJ uses HL18P on one hand while using the soft vacant fist with the other. GJ himself said it gives you an advantage in technique.

    So it is likely in my opinion that ZBT would have had the advantage if he used the L/R technique.
    The novel said that ZBT had no way to hurt GWM, he could merely deflect his power. I'm quite sure this meant that he had nothing in his arsenal, except maybe 9Y, that was capable of injuring GWM. Vacant Fist alone surely couldn't hurt him unless ZBT kept on using it and frustrated GWM so much that he lets his guard down..

    I know, if Yi Deng couldnt defeat QQR easily, and GLFW couldnt either. Do you think ZBT with LR hand could defeat QQR faster than they did ?
    ZBT has defeated KCY in LOCH when he goes to Iron Palm Peak. It did not say how long the fight took, but I don't think it took half a day, which is how long GWM needed to kill KCY. They initially fought to a draw so I'm guessing ZBT used his entire 72 sequences of Vacant Fist and all of his QZ kung-fu. This shouldn't take an entire day. KCY was only defeated after ZBT used L/R Hand. Remember ZBT was there to bring WY the head of KCY or else she leads his scorned lover Ying Gu to him so he was not there messing around. KCY thought he could hold his own with the other greats but ran from ZBT as he thought there was no way to defeat this crazy old man.

  9. #49
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    aw man...my favorite debate has blown up so strongly over this past weekend...

    time to get down to business.

    i have a couple points that i would like GJ fans to clarify:

    1. i don't see how GJ is more powerful than OYF in the beginning of ROCH. they trade off in gaining the advantage in the fight, but in the end they are both seriously injured. OYF goes as far to say "that brat GJ would take 7 days to recover from that blow". true, OYF is completely crazy, but NEVER when it comes to martial arts. case in point: all of his counters for H7G's dogbeating stick. the only reason GJ was able to recover faster than OYF is because of 9yin's superior healing ability, and the fact that OYF is trapped under the bell and cannot devote his whole energy to recovering until later.

    from this point, GJ is completely equal to OYF --- if he is higher, than it would be at an almost indistinguishable amount, at least 1000 stances to find the winner. if this is so, i don't see how he has surpassed any other Great as well. i'm sure that he's a complete MATCH for them...and may end up with the win. but it would HAVE to be the fight of his life.

    ---

    2. again, the only possible advantage GJ has over YG is internal energy. of what i understand about 9yin, it DOESN'T increase without practice...only QZ type internal energy is such that you can increase it while sleeping or doing non-training related activities.

    therefore, this is a 2-way street: if you say that GJ's internal energy is based on QZ and it increases over time, you must say that YG will increase over time as well, because his version of QZ internal energy IS better than GJ's. if you say that it was simply 9yin that allows GJ to multiply his internal energy without bound, where is the proof? anonymous has already established that the rate of growth for 9yin is similar, if not even INFERIOR to YG's ocean/wave training. can 9yin increase your power even when NOT training it? this is impossible, because HR is not that great at all.

    honestly, i think 9yin is overrated. don't get me wrong, it's not a shabby kungfu at all --- it's amazing. but i refuse to allow the argument that 9yin is better than any type of kungfu simply because of its fame. if that's true, then ninjitsu should be more powerful than anything.

    superboy says:

    Z3F and ZBT both remarked that advance Taoist internal energy increase faster as you train.
    this is an unfair statement. first of all, Z3F has never experienced 9yin. although he is perhaps the best martial arts theorist in the condor trilogy, he still cannot comment accurately on something he doesn't know. after all, if all taoist theories shared the same traits then i should just practice i-ching and beat the crap out of everyone. it just doesn't work that way.

    as to ZBT...i have a hard time believing EVERYTHING he says. remember, this is the guy who says that WCY could beat GWM in 10 stances...and we all know that's crazy exaggeration. i have a feeling that he didn't simply state "taoist energy will increase, the more you train". i think that he rather said something like "hey GJ, you know that QZ kungfu is the best in the world...the more you use it, the more it will be better than everybody else". i think ZBT's thinking is a bit warped when he thinks of WCY. i mean, WCY is undoubtedly an incredible martial artist --- but he's also an older brother, almost a father figure to ZBT. you could say that he feels the same way about WCY as GX feels about YG, without the romantic undertones.

    ---

    more points later....
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  10. #50
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    Originally posted by superboy
    I have something that supports why ZBT is stronger than GLFW. Although the GLFW of 16 years later had improved dramatically, it still took him a whole day to defeat Qiu Qian Ren, which is around the same level of Yi Deng other from the messed up adaptations. Yi Deng 16 years ago was lost to QQR without using YYZ. And it was said that if Yi Deng use YYZ and TSG combined, he might be able to defeat QQR after a long battle. And GLFW too beat QQR only after a long battle. Although GLFW's palms is stronger than the blast of Yi Deng, never-the-less, they are very close to each other in terms of martial arts. But that is only if Yi Deng use hi best technique YYZ. But we saw that ZBT was quite captable to at least fight GLFW to a draw even without his L/R technique. So it is likely in my opinion that ZBT would have had the advantage if he used the L/R technique.
    this isn't completely accurate, because of ZBT's unique vacant fist ability. i have faith that ZBT could probably even fight XF to a standstill, thanks to the ingenuity of vacant fist. he rendered the POWER of GWM's elephant/dragon dexterity useless...but that doesn't change the fact that ZBT could not meet GWM head on. all ZBT can do is evade with vacant fist...and that cannot be counted as a win. only a draw at best.

    also, L/R hand technique is not really a factor here...after all, do you think ZBT could really intercept all the palms of GWM with JUST ONE HAND? i mean, he was having trouble with YG's speed with just ONE arm. i don't see ZBT clearly winning here at all.

    however, i really have to give it up to the kong ming fists --- other than tai chi, i cannot think of a better defensive fighting technique. in fact, with vacant fist i think ZBT could fight pretty much ANYONE to a standstill...even GJ. does that mean ZBT is the same level as GJ?

    nope. the greatest factor is ZBT's stamina --- he simply doesn't have it. seeing as GLFW is younger than ZBT, by your own standards, superboy, GLFW will last longer and win the fight.
    Last edited by sixdays; 03-16-04 at 03:32 AM.
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  11. #51
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    GLFW may not be able to last any longer than ZBT if ZBT only use Vacant Fist, the softist technique in the world. Soft techniques tends to use up very small ortion of internlal energy. But if ZBT were able to fight QQR to a stale mate before without using his L/R technique, and Yi Deng loses out ewithout using YYZ, then it at least say ZBT is a level higher than the Greats, slightly.

    this is an unfair statement. first of all, Z3F has never experienced 9yin. although he is perhaps the best martial arts theorist in the condor trilogy, he still cannot comment accurately on something he doesn't know. after all, if all taoist theories shared the same traits then i should just practice i-ching and beat the crap out of everyone. it just doesn't work that way.

    as to ZBT...i have a hard time believing EVERYTHING he says. remember, this is the guy who says that WCY could beat GWM in 10 stances...and we all know that's crazy exaggeration. i have a feeling that he didn't simply state "taoist energy will increase, the more you train". i think that he rather said something like "hey GJ, you know that QZ kungfu is the best in the world...the more you use it, the more it will be better than everybody else". i think ZBT's thinking is a bit warped when he thinks of WCY. i mean, WCY is undoubtedly an incredible martial artist --- but he's also an older brother, almost a father figure to ZBT. you could say that he feels the same way about WCY as GX feels about YG, without the romantic undertones.
    Although Z3F had never seen 9 Yin beforem, I still think that his remarks are trustable. He had been studying taoist internal energy from more than 80 years, and is one of the most talented martial artist. If he claimed that taoist intrnal enregy increases as you age at a quicker pace, then I think that it should be true.
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  12. #52
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    however, i really have to give it up to the kong ming fists --- other than tai chi, i cannot think of a better defensive fighting technique. in fact, with vacant fist i think ZBT could fight pretty much ANYONE to a standstill...even GJ. does that mean ZBT is the same level as GJ?
    actually, i do think GJ should be around the same level as ZBT. I don't think GJ's 9 yin practice should've propelled him THAT much ahead of the Greats.

    ZBT may be an old man, but his "failing" stamina really does not have much effect on him. Great levels of internal energy training could slow down aging factors, not to mention ZBT really had not stress upon him and had some taoist trainings (more anti-aging factors on him).

    I think there was a remark somewhere that seems to tell us that OYF and H7G has about the same interrnal energy as GLFW.
    Then where did the three/four years come in? it seems to suggest that at the hero's feast, GJ=GLFW...and it was not 3/4 years later that they met at mongolian camp.

  13. #53
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Also Z3F is one of the most talented martial artist and had studied taoist internal cultivation for over 80 years. I believe that his remark on taoist energy should be quite reliable, or he wouldn't have say so.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  14. #54
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Then where did the three/four years come in? it seems to suggest that at the hero's feast, GJ=GLFW...and it was not 3/4 years later that they met at mongolian camp.
    It was from the time GJ fought OYF to Mongolia camp. If GJ improves faster than OYF,a nd GLFW had around his level of imternal energy when he(OYF) died. So that was where it came from.
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  15. #55
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    actually, i do think GJ should be around the same level as ZBT. I don't think GJ's 9 yin practice should've propelled him THAT much ahead of the Greats.

    ZBT may be an old man, but his "failing" stamina really does not have much effect on him. Great levels of internal energy training could slow down aging factors, not to mention ZBT really had not stress upon him and had some taoist trainings (more anti-aging factors on him).
    But can you really give a reason why GJ would not even have go beyond aZBT's level with 9 Yin. 9 Yin is a much superior art. I mean, ZBT could never hope to train to Great level with 13-14 years.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  16. #56
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    Originally posted by superboy
    But can you really give a reason why GJ would not even have go beyond aZBT's level with 9 Yin. 9 Yin is a much superior art. I mean, ZBT could never hope to train to Great level with 13-14 years.
    oh yes he did...why do you think ZBT was captured and trapped in Peach Island for 15 or so years? He was obviously quite inferior to HYS. YEt, in LOCh, we see him leveling the greats (tkx to 9 yin). And 9 yin did influence much of ZBT's martial arts whether he wants it or not.

    It was from the time GJ fought OYF to Mongolia camp. If GJ improves faster than OYF,a nd GLFW had around his level of imternal energy when he(OYF) died. So that was where it came from.
    however, GJ=GLFW at heroes feast is much more likely to hold true than the speculation of GLFW=OYF on top of Mt. hua

  17. #57
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    oh yes he did...why do you think ZBT was captured and trapped in Peach Island for 15 or so years? He was obviously quite inferior to HYS. YEt, in LOCh, we see him leveling the greats (tkx to 9 yin). And 9 yin did influence much of ZBT's martial arts whether he wants it or not.
    It is true that 9 Yin gave ZBT influences on his martial arts, but never the less, his internal energy are all QZ energy, and had caught up woth the Greats. And it's another point to 9 Yin.
    however, GJ=GLFW at heroes feast is much more likely to hold true than the speculation of GLFW=OYF on top of Mt. hua
    But I think it was mentioned somewhere. At least it was about internal energy that they(OYF, H7G, and GLFW) were equal.
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  18. #58
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    Super: No, I believe that t was mentioned that H7G and OYF has about the same internal energy as GLFW.
    --- I'm glad this is cleared: OYF=GWM=H7G innerPower-wise.
    --- Then, GJ=OYF and GJ=GWM results in GJ=GWM=OYF and GJ didnt improve innerPower-wise.
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    Super: I have something that supports why ZBT is stronger than GLFW. Although the GLFW of 16 years later had improved dramatically, it still took him a whole day to defeat Qiu Qian Ren, which is around the same level of Yi Deng other from the messed up adaptations. [...] And it was said that if Yi Deng use YYZ and TSG combined, he might be able to defeat QQR after a long battle. [...]
    --- duguX (I think) mentions that ZBT "did" defeat QQR with L/R technique in LOCH; however, your "proof" is too outdated (in LOCH): greats improve, etc. And your comparing LOCH (1Deng vs. QQR) with ROCH combat: not enough common ground.
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    Super: Yi Deng 16 years ago was lost to QQR without using YYZ. And it was said that if Yi Deng use YYZ and TSG combined, he might be able to defeat QQR after a long battle.
    --- Where did you get this? LOCH? It's hard to believe 1Deng will "lose" to QQR/CCY.
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    Super: But we saw that ZBT was quite captable to at least fight GLFW to a draw even without his L/R technique. So it is likely in my opinion that ZBT would have had the advantage if he used the L/R technique.
    --- However, (correcting myself too. ) GWM could still take YG's SadPalms (though diminished power), and SadPalms can match ZBT's L/R. From the description, it doesnt seem ZBT can use L/R becuz ZBT seems on the "defensive":
    He did not know what skill the Imperial Priest used, so he used his 72 Vacant Fists to battle the Imperial Priest. He used void to intercept solid and nothingness to block solidity. By doing [VacantFist] so he has rendered the awesome power of the Imperial Priest useless, but it was also impossible for him to wound his adversary. The Imperial Priest attacked with several stances now, it seems his stances could not even tickle his adversary.

  19. #59
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    --- I'm glad this is cleared: OYF=GWM=H7G innerPower-wise.
    --- Then, GJ=OYF and GJ=GWM results in GJ=GWM=OYF and GJ didnt improve innerPower-wise.
    We don't need to ponder on this, since I belieive that 4 years more cultivation isn't even a lot. At least GJ still fare welled against GLFW at the camp just right before he exerted much internal energy on YG.


    --- duguX (I think) mentions that ZBT "did" defeat QQR with L/R technique in LOCH; however, your "proof" is too outdated (in LOCH): greats improve, etc. And your comparing LOCH (1Deng vs. QQR) with ROCH combat: not enough common ground.
    Well, then Yi Deng needing YYZ to fight GLFW, while ZBT have not used L/R may be anotherone. Also, even if GLFW was to strong for ZBT to use hard techniques, at least it sort of tells you that if ZBT were to fight a Great, he can probably at least draw without using L/R, and possibly win with it since a Great does not have as much raw strength as GLFW.


    --- Where did you get this? LOCH? It's hard to believe 1Deng will "lose" to QQR/CCY
    It was in ROCH. Hard to believe, yet the truth. Yi Deng can't defeat QQR if he doesn't use his YYZ.

    --- However, (correcting myself too. ) GWM could still take YG's SadPalms (though diminished power), and SadPalms can match ZBT's L/R. From the description, it doesnt seem ZBT can use L/R becuz ZBT seems on the "defensive":
    It was really just defense, since it was bacically a stale mate. And wouldn't ZBT being able to equal GLFW without using L/R suggest ZBT=YG?
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  20. #60
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    superboy...something you have to understand is that just because ZBT didn't use L/R hand technique doesn't mean that he's better WITH it in that situation.

    every time you mentioned ZBT not using L/R hand technique, ZBT is using vacant fist against a strong opponent: GWM, YG. why do you think this is? it's simply because he needs both hands using the 72 kong ming fists to overcome the ferocity and speed of GWM and YG's attacks. if ZBT were to use L/R hand technique here, he would simply lose because he could not defend against GWM's quick and powerful strikes with only one hand.

    as to why ZBT can use L/R hand technique against YG:

    1. for goodness sake, YG only has one hand to use. true, he has overcome his handicap, but i'd think that he would have a hard time striking as many times as a 2-palmed fighter (aka GWM) can in the same given amount of time. it's easier to intercept YG if he's just using straight up palms. that's why elusiveness is such a big factor of sadpalms --- if the opponent doesn't know where YG is striking from, then it doesn't matter if he hits less times because each hit will be effective.

    2. ZBT was on the offensive when he used L/R hand technique against. never do we see ZBT use L/R hand technique to stop an all-out assault from YG. in fact, my theory is that when ZBT needs two hands to defend, he simply cannot do L/R hand technique because his full defense can only be effective when using 2 hands to block.

    ---

    there's one more point that we all seem to be forgetting: ZBT's childlike impatience.

    do you think he would ever really just use vacant fist until his opponent ran out of internal energy? that's crazy ---- against any of the Greats/YG/GJ, it would take at least whole day to expend ALL of their internal energy in a fight if all they're doing is throwing out palms and nothing more. knowing ZBT, he'd get bored after 300 stances and go try and terrorize more people. there is no way he could wait out his opponent.

    the only person that could do this would be GJ. however, his character is such that he would never simply wait for his opponent to drop down dead from using too much internal energy. in fact, GJ is the kind of guy who would make sure on all levels that the fight is fair; knowing GJ, he would most likely go on the offensive after a while saying something like, "well it's only fair that i give you a chance to rest as well".


    We don't need to ponder on this, since I belieive that 4 years more cultivation isn't even a lot. At least GJ still fare welled against GLFW at the camp just right before he exerted much internal energy on YG.
    that's a bit of an exaggeration. after all, YG was not ACTUALLY fire deviating...therefore, the energy GJ used to "fix" him couldn't have been that much.



    Well, then Yi Deng needing YYZ to fight GLFW, while ZBT have not used L/R may be anotherone. Also, even if GLFW was to strong for ZBT to use hard techniques, at least it sort of tells you that if ZBT were to fight a Great, he can probably at least draw without using L/R, and possibly win with it since a Great does not have as much raw strength as GLFW.
    he would draw using vacant fist. as to L/R hand technique, i've already explained why he can't use it against a Greats-level yang style fighter.



    It was in ROCH. Hard to believe, yet the truth. Yi Deng can't defeat QQR if he doesn't use his YYZ.

    that's just straight up unfair. if GJ didn't have HL18Z, he would be killed by YG for sure. does that make YG stronger than GJ? i'm sure you would say no.



    It was really just defense, since it was bacically a stale mate. And wouldn't ZBT being able to equal GLFW without using L/R suggest ZBT=YG?
    a couple things.

    1. so, once and for all...are you trying to say that YG defeated GWM without trouble, and that's why YG = ZBT? your sentence reads:

    "ZBT being able to equal GLFW without using L/R"

    so if we replace this with YG (since ZBT = YG), the sentence reads:

    "YG being able to equal GLFW without using ____"

    what is the blank? ironsword? i personally don't think ironsword is as good for YG as sadpalm (at its highest form) is, so i can't really understand your argument.

    2. again, i've proved that using L/R hand technique is not necessarily an advantage. therefore, the ZBT=YG thing is not valid.
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