View Poll Results: Who was the superior fighter?

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  • Gwok Jing/Guo Jing

    138 58.47%
  • Yeung Gor/Yang Guo

    90 38.14%
  • Not Sure

    8 3.39%
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Thread: The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

  1. #61
    Senior Member Arching_Hero's Avatar
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    Originally posted by sixdays
    superboy...something you have to understand is that just because ZBT didn't use L/R hand technique doesn't mean that he's better WITH it in that situation.

    every time you mentioned ZBT not using L/R hand technique, ZBT is using vacant fist against a strong opponent: GWM, YG. why do you think this is? it's simply because he needs both hands using the 72 kong ming fists to overcome the ferocity and speed of GWM and YG's attacks. if ZBT were to use L/R hand technique here, he would simply lose because he could not defend against GWM's quick and powerful strikes with only one hand.
    But Guo Jing can use HL18z(offensive) on one hand while using the soft vacant fist(defensive) on the other with the L/R technique....

  2. #62
    Senior Member Thai guy's Avatar
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    Oh, my god, within three or four days, this thread goes so far. Hope to read more and more until I can reach my own conclusion. No comments at the moment.

  3. #63
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default Fact that Guo Jing > Yang Guo?

    Is there any concrete evidence to support this thought?

  4. #64
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    No more so than:

    OYF>HQG.

  5. #65
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    which ultimately means they are EQUAL

  6. #66
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    It was really just defense, since it was bacically a stale mate. And wouldn't ZBT being able to equal GLFW without using L/R suggest ZBT=YG?
    okay.....for the sake of the argument, letz just assume (assume until i can find a more solid argument ), that YG=ZBT, and ZBT>GLFW, then, since ZBT > HYS, 1Deng, then where is evidence that GJ>ZBT?

  7. #67
    Senior Member Arching_Hero's Avatar
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    Originally posted by philip
    okay.....for the sake of the argument, letz just assume (assume until i can find a more solid argument ), that YG=ZBT, and ZBT>GLFW, then, since ZBT > HYS, 1Deng, then where is evidence that GJ>ZBT?
    I'm quite sure that GJ > YG but I'm not sure about GJ between ZBT

  8. #68
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    There's no denying that she "is" a prodigy; look at GX. Her battle with OYF proves that she can still keep up, and she "is" a candidate for "great" status in end of ROCH.
    Of course she is a prodigy and she keeps on improving but not on the same league with YG and GJ.Her martial talent cannot be mentioned in the same breath with YG and GJ.

    First, GJ is "adventuring" and is an active character in the LOCH novel; meaning, the definition of "adventuring" is to gain experience and enlightenment, much like YG during the novel. That's why GJ/YG can go leaps and bounds, becuz we "see" them do it. When they are inactive, like Inactive party members or NPCs (NonPlayerCharacter in RPG), then they "logically shouldnt" gain any experience. JY's reasons for "inactive" characters is "babysitting"/"war". [For example, XLN during 16years. Symbolically she "mirrors" HR.] Besides, no free lunch for GJ.
    I understand your reasoning but it still doesn't really explain in other words how the other Greats can still catch up with GWM and YG despite they are in their 90's and lack of intensive training.So no reason to doubt that GJ could also made that much improvement.

    It's worthwhile to use GWM'S technique disadvantage; however, GWMlv10 proves that technique-wise [during his battles] he is not inferior. Look at however, with his head back and he still "intercepts" YG's swordstrokes. He was able to use his hearing to his advantage. The greats reach a point where technique becomes less and less [but not totally un-] important
    True but when your inner power is about equal level,then technique can be a deciding factor.Just look at H7G and OYF at the 3rd day they only decide to use technique as deciding factor on who is better.

    One more think,did JY ever mentioned that YG practised QZ inner power?He only know their formula but never said he practised their inner power training because I can't remember ROCH that much.

    to Sixday:

    You mentioned that ZBT couldn't use L/R hand on GWM because GWM was too fast in his attack but this shouldn't be true.GJ at 2nd Wah Shan was able to use L/R hand on H7G when being attacked by H7G dragon palm.H7G at that time is even better than GJ but ZBT and GWM is at the same level.

  9. #69
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    Of course she is a prodigy and she keeps on improving but not on the same league with YG and GJ.Her martial talent cannot be mentioned in the same breath with YG and GJ.
    ur right...she's definitely not in the same league as GJ...she's way better! but then, thatz another debate...letz not get too out of hand.

    I understand your reasoning but it still doesn't really explain in other words how the other Greats can still catch up with GWM and YG despite they are in their 90's and lack of intensive training.So no reason to doubt that GJ could also made that much improvement.
    sure GJ made improvements...but how much exactly. my opinion is that by the end, he is still in the about same league as the Greats

  10. #70
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Guys:

    Please be mindful that the one of the important reasons behind having a permanent sticky Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Thread is so that we don't have to start a whole bunch of new ones. If people are going to start a whole bunch of different threads on this topic, then we've just wasted our time.

  11. #71
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Didn't Dong Xie and Nan Di both say that ZBT was above them in martial arts? Since both Yang Guo and Guo Jing were able to stand with the 2 original greats, they are equal.

  12. #72
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Arching_Hero
    But Guo Jing can use HL18z(offensive) on one hand while using the soft vacant fist(defensive) on the other with the L/R technique....
    true, he was able to do this. however, we are confident that the level of H7G at this time cannot match up with GWM's level when he faces ZBT. therefore, with a more difficult opponent it must be more difficult to block. i stand by my statement.

    as to why GJ can use vacant fist with one hand and HL18Z with the other on H7G, remember that all the Greats underestimated GJ at this time because they didn't know about his L/R hand technique and the VF. therefore, i believe that H7G wasn't using full strength at first, and just kind of struck out one palm at a time against GJ. when GJ countered with VF and HL18Z, that's when H7G started to really try...but by then, he was on the defensive and GJ did not use the vacant fist/HL18Z combo anymore. we still don't know if GJ at that time could have taken a full-on assault from H7G.
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  13. #73
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by sixdays
    true, he was able to do this. however, we are confident that the level of H7G at this time cannot match up with GWM's level when he faces ZBT. therefore, with a more difficult opponent it must be more difficult to block. i stand by my statement.

    as to why GJ can use vacant fist with one hand and HL18Z with the other on H7G, remember that all the Greats underestimated GJ at this time because they didn't know about his L/R hand technique and the VF. therefore, i believe that H7G wasn't using full strength at first, and just kind of struck out one palm at a time against GJ. when GJ countered with VF and HL18Z, that's when H7G started to really try...but by then, he was on the defensive and GJ did not use the vacant fist/HL18Z combo anymore. we still don't know if GJ at that time could have taken a full-on assault from H7G.
    You can also say that GJ that time were also much inferior to H7G, so doesn't that make the situations parallel?
    superboy...something you have to understand is that just because ZBT didn't use L/R hand technique doesn't mean that he's better WITH it in that situation.

    every time you mentioned ZBT not using L/R hand technique, ZBT is using vacant fist against a strong opponent: GWM, YG. why do you think this is? it's simply because he needs both hands using the 72 kong ming fists to overcome the ferocity and speed of GWM and YG's attacks. if ZBT were to use L/R hand technique here, he would simply lose because he could not defend against GWM's quick and powerful strikes with only one hand.

    as to why ZBT can use L/R hand technique against YG:

    1. for goodness sake, YG only has one hand to use. true, he has overcome his handicap, but i'd think that he would have a hard time striking as many times as a 2-palmed fighter (aka GWM) can in the same given amount of time. it's easier to intercept YG if he's just using straight up palms. that's why elusiveness is such a big factor of sadpalms --- if the opponent doesn't know where YG is striking from, then it doesn't matter if he hits less times because each hit will be effective.

    2. ZBT was on the offensive when he used L/R hand technique against. never do we see ZBT use L/R hand technique to stop an all-out assault from YG. in fact, my theory is that when ZBT needs two hands to defend, he simply cannot do L/R hand technique because his full defense can only be effective when using 2 hands to block.
    ZBT did fought QQR before at LOCH, and QQR was around the level of the Greats. At that time, ZBT stilled needed to fight his hard Iron Palms which are said to be at the same leagues as Hl18Z etc. He fought to a draw, and eventually QQR loses out when he start using the L/R techniques. I think the L/R techniques can also help you have better controling of your fists too, not just what kind of palm techniques. XLN used it on swor d movements and it was very effective.

    there's one more point that we all seem to be forgetting: ZBT's childlike impatience.

    do you think he would ever really just use vacant fist until his opponent ran out of internal energy? that's crazy ---- against any of the Greats/YG/GJ, it would take at least whole day to expend ALL of their internal energy in a fight if all they're doing is throwing out palms and nothing more. knowing ZBT, he'd get bored after 300 stances and go try and terrorize more people. there is no way he could wait out his opponent.

    the only person that could do this would be GJ. however, his character is such that he would never simply wait for his opponent to drop down dead from using too much internal energy. in fact, GJ is the kind of guy who would make sure on all levels that the fight is fair; knowing GJ, he would most likely go on the offensive after a while saying something like, "well it's only fair that i give you a chance to rest as well".
    This is a mere unbasis speculation. Can I say YG would lose a battle to a Great because of his arrogance? And on gJ, I found that to be very unlikely that he will do that, at least not to an enemy. We never see him goes, "Oh well OYF, you're much older, so I'll blast out half of my energy first then fight you."

    that's a bit of an exaggeration. after all, YG was not ACTUALLY fire deviating...therefore, the energy GJ used to "fix" him couldn't have been that much.
    YG purposely rotated his chi around like he was really fire deviated and wasted GJ's couple of hours of internal energy on him. And during the incident GJ was climbing up the wall, JY had already remarked about that he would have been successful even when the arrow were coming at him if it weren't for YG that time. And that will technically mean YG didn't really save him to. He was the one that caused it. Plus, we can't really say that GJ and GLFW was equals 16 years ago, because there were already a gap.

    he would draw using vacant fist. as to L/R hand technique, i've already explained why he can't use it against a Greats-level yang style fighter.
    It will still increase your fists' mobility as I said earilier.

    that's just straight up unfair. if GJ didn't have HL18Z, he would be killed by YG for sure. does that make YG stronger than GJ? i'm sure you would say no.
    That is still a big unsure. We still haven't know how good 56 years old GJ is. Still don't understand why people will say taht GJ should be around Great level when it is seen by everyone that the 13 year gap allower GJ to improve to Great level. Then we give him another 16 years gap.

    a couple things.

    1. so, once and for all...are you trying to say that YG defeated GWM without trouble, and that's why YG = ZBT? your sentence reads:

    "ZBT being able to equal GLFW without using L/R"

    so if we replace this with YG (since ZBT = YG), the sentence reads:

    "YG being able to equal GLFW without using ____"

    what is the blank? ironsword? i personally don't think ironsword is as good for YG as sadpalm (at its highest form) is, so i can't really understand your argument.

    2. again, i've proved that using L/R hand technique is not necessarily an advantage. therefore, the ZBT=YG thing is not valid.
    I think ZBT also used the L/R technique at the start without the need to use two different types of palms right?
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  14. #74
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by philip
    okay.....for the sake of the argument, letz just assume (assume until i can find a more solid argument ), that YG=ZBT, and ZBT>GLFW, then, since ZBT > HYS, 1Deng, then where is evidence that GJ>ZBT?
    How about YG once thought 16 years ago that GJ was unsurpassed in the world. That was after he met all the Greats, GLFW, and ZBT.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  15. #75
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    YG also belived that he was tian xi wu di with iron sword does that make it true?

  16. #76
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    what chapter did he make that comment in? I remember one scene where ZBT throws a flag at GWM and the power behind it forces GWM backwards. ZBT could make a piece of meat jump from his chest using inner power GWM could not do that. Also GWM felt that ZBT could defeat him in a all out battle which may be a reason why he used spiders to posion ZBT before trying 2 engage him in battle.AT the time GJ=GWM and it was implied that ZBT was proboally superior(again at that time obiviosly not at end of ROCH)
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 03-16-04 at 09:52 PM.

  17. #77
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Think it was somewhere while he was training with the condor.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  18. #78
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    i skimmed chapter did not read anything bout that YG mentioned that GJ was a hero and that GF used that fact to hurt him thats about it..was this during the second time they trained?

  19. #79
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    I don't really remember, I think it's the second time, but can't be certain
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  20. #80
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    I'm in the opinion that L/R Hand Technique did improve ZBT's capabilities, and I believe that ZBT could execute two Vacant Fist stances using L/R Hand Technique. After all, he was the inventor of both L/R Hand Technique and Vacant Fist. Is there mentioned anywhere in the novel that ZBT could not perform Vacant Fist using L/R Hand Technique?
    Last edited by rabadi; 03-17-04 at 09:48 PM.

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