The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Anonymous
As for GJ_rate greater than GWM at this point:
do this to your theory. First, use your beginning GJ_rate and GWM_rate (however you calculate it) and use that same calculation up to the 16years. What is your result? [Please provide your formula and calculations here so we can all evalute it. (I'm evil here. hahaha)]

Sounds like a computer algorithm.

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
A word on what seems to be a common misconception about "shen gong": whether we're talking about the 1 Yeung Finger Technique, the Hong Lung 18 Palms, the 9 Yum Jen Ging, the 9 Yeung Jen Ging, the Sad Palms, Ha Mo Gung, or whatever, these are advanced, difficult systems to learn. A person doesn't just get his hands on these advanced martial arts systems and automatically becomes a great fighter. One needs to have a special aptitude for martial arts to get anywhere with these advanced martial arts. You could give people like Lo Yau Gerk, Sa Tung Teen, Dat Yee Ba, Gwok Fu, etc., twenty books of 9 Yum Jen Ging, etc., and thirty years later, their martial arts wouldn't be much better. Not just ANYBODY can do it.

That's true of any kung fu. You could give Xiao Feng any piddly martial arts and he'd be a great fighter. Duan Yu could only have gotten so powerful because he 1) Drained JMZ completely of his inner power and 2) Had 6MSJ; Duan Yu could only be as good as the martial arts he knew. The point is, with a 'shen gong' even the most average of fighters can be better than someone who has a bit more aptitude than him but with just a 'normal' kung fu like Wu Dang Long Fist.

Anybody could learn 1YZ, but only someone like 1Deng could completely master it. Anybody could learn 9Ying but and even without mastery could be better than most other fighters. Knowing only the beginning half of 9Ying can make you a great fighter, but knowing only the beginning half of 18 Dragon Palms only makes you average.

[philip]

Originally posted by superboy
The that is not energy than! People say energy, but it's actually strength. And strength does not mean energy. JY said his strenght were stronger, and his energy was profound. So, all the things remarked about GJ's energy being lower are not true. Isn't it obvious that JY choose to say strenght, but not internal energy?

ur point?

[philip]

Originally posted by Dirt
That's true of any kung fu. You could give Xiao Feng any piddly martial arts and he'd be a great fighter. Duan Yu could only have gotten so powerful because he 1) Drained JMZ completely of his inner power and 2) Had 6MSJ; Duan Yu could only be as good as the martial arts he knew. The point is, with a 'shen gong' even the most average of fighters can be better than someone who has a bit more aptitude than him but with just a 'normal' kung fu like Wu Dang Long Fist.

Anybody could learn 1YZ, but only someone like 1Deng could completely master it. Anybody could learn 9Ying but and even without mastery could be better than most other fighters. Knowing only the beginning half of 9Ying can make you a great fighter, but knowing only the beginning half of 18 Dragon Palms only makes you average.

yep i agree...results may vary, but on an average, "better" art is definitely an advantage. For example, a student of a great is most likely better than the others

[Noodles]

In chapter 21 at the Mongolian camp, Jin Yong made a comment that with Fa Wang being twenty years older than Guo Jing, he had an extra twenty years worth of internal energy. However, the great martial arts that Guo Jing came across in his life helped blur this apparant gap.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Noodles
In chapter 21 at the Mongolian camp, Jin Yong made a comment that with Fa Wang being twenty years older than Guo Jing, he had an extra twenty years worth of internal energy. However, the great martial arts that Guo Jing came across in his life helped blur this apparant gap.

Jin Yong's choice of words here muddles the issue a bit. "Years" is a unit measure of time, not quantity of energy. Twenty years is a significant amount of time in the context of a human life, but what does this mean in terms of internal energy? If it is meant to suggest a vast gulf of inner power levels between the Golden Wheel Monk and Gwok Jing, then it's hard to see how they could have been rivals at all . . . regardless of how superior Gwok Jing's fighting techniques might have been. Moreover, Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk's one-and-only one-on-one "fight" was their palm clash at Luk Manor. Palm clashes (with no other blows exchanged) are a measure of internal power rather than technique, and the result suggested a draw. It does not seem to me that there was a significant difference in inner power between Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk one way or the other.

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
ur point?

So what is all those saying that GJ has less? You said it yourself???

[superboy]

Originally posted by Anonymous
I'm only implying [for now] that GJ has more profound-ness than GWM, while GWM have more "abundance." This is based on 1Deng (and thus GJ) having more "self-cultivation" [aka profoundness] than GWM.
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As for GJ_rate greater than GWM at this point:
do this to your theory. First, use your beginning GJ_rate and GWM_rate (however you calculate it) and use that same calculation up to the 16years. What is your result? [Please provide your formula and calculations here so we can all evalute it. (I'm evil here. hahaha)]
.
Your result cannot place GWM too far behind GJ becuz GWM's "long distance calling" matches GJ's "long distance calling" which also matches HYS's "long distance calling." If your result fails this, then your theory is proven incorrect [which I assume it is, so prove me wrong. ].
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Note, "long distance calling" is only for post-16year "great-level" fighters and not pre-16year "great-levels".

GLFW was never more abundant than Yi Deng, just more forceful. Anyway, I don't know cause it wasn't explicit.
Okay, the formula I use is that GJ would probably have around40-50% of the Great's internal energy at the end of LOCH in my opinion. As much as he looked equal, JY did said that his internal energy cannot compare to OYF. So, if GJ did gain at least 80% of the Great's energy by 13 years or more, that would make him increasing at the rate catching up to the Great at 2.7% per year. 3.4% annually if he had 90%, or 4.2% if he got 100% of OYF's energy. Anyway, because I believe that it is JY's bad adjustments that GJ improved that fast in LOCH, I'll say 3.4% or so. Cause if not, then it would mean that Gj slowed down like5-6 times because of Phillip's mastery theory? Then HYS being at 18-19 year old YG's level at 30, would never had reached his level in LOCH and ROCH if people do slow down 5-6 times. And giving the Greats 6 times like GJ is already optimistic since 9 YIn has the most advance foundation. JY commented that QZ energy catches up camel mountain cause of that right? So GJ moving faster than the Greats at 3.4% annually is my speculation. So GJ was GLFW's equal when GLFW had 20 years more training. Now we found out that JY never did remarked that GJ has slightly less energy than GLFW. GLFW at the end of ROCH should be behind GJ if GJ continued to improve faster than the greats, which is perfectly normal with 9 Yin. Is it not probableto say GJ would all a sudden improve only at Great level? I personally think so. And I do not use these callings as any measurment. Cause, you can't say that all three of the weightlifters are around the same level just cause they can each bench 110 pounds. They can all proform it, but maybe one has the max of 200, one have 250, the last one have 300. Anyway, since the mastery theory has no trigger, and contradicts withe the people's improvement rate, I believe GJ's improvement rate at LOCH was just bad adjustments by JY because he need to show GJ's tremondous progress in a short peroid of time.

[Top Dog]

GJ is owned if YG used his Iron sword.

[superboy]

Originally posted by Top Dog
GJ is owned if YG used his Iron sword.

If Sad Palms is weaker than the Iron Sword. Cause Sad Palms is a combination of all the martial arts YG learned in his life. Wether it is inferior to the Iron Sword or not is still subjective.

[Top Dog]

Originally posted by superboy
If Sad Palms is weaker than the Iron Sword. Cause Sad Palms is a combination of all the martial arts YG learned in his life. Wether it is inferior to the Iron Sword or not is still subjective.

YG regreted not bringing the Iron sword when he fought GWM. Also, YG internal power is around GJ if not better, and there is no way GJ can unarm. You don't think GJ can counter a sword attack now, do you?

[superboy]

Originally posted by Top Dog
YG regreted not bringing the Iron sword when he fought GWM. Also, YG internal power is around GJ if not better, and there is no way GJ can unarm. You don't think GJ can counter a sword attack now, do you?

Your thought about YG's energy is probably stronger than GJ without proof again. Anyway, YG was able to place GLFW to a disadvantaged position with his Sad Palms in low power. So, he would probably be able to beat GLFW without being exhausted if his Sad Palms were in full power. Of course I don't think that it would be like a one hit wonder like what happnened since GLFW was blinded by anger and surprise, but Sad Palms might not be weaker.

[philip]

Originally posted by superboy
So what is all those saying that GJ has less? You said it yourself???

okay...yea, i said it...cuz back then i thought, like you did, that profound should be the same as abundant...so apparently they are not. does it make the difference? It doesn't mean GJ is above GLFW at all.

Okay, the formula I use is that GJ would probably have around40-50% of the Great's internal energy at the end of LOCH in my opinion. As much as he looked equal, JY did said that his internal energy cannot compare to OYF.

is this before the 13 years or after? cuz i never found JY making any remark on OYF being better than GJ in terms of internal energy after the 13 years.

and second, rate being faster doesn't mean that he will be out of their league...does it? and if you want to use the quan zhen 9 yin effect...i ask you again, why ZBT hasn't gone way beyond the GReats? Did he not get the QZ training?

[Top Dog]

Originally posted by superboy
You thin YG's energy is probably stronger than GJ without proof again. Anyway, YG was able to place GLFW to a disadvantaged position with his Sad Palms in low power. So, he would probably be able to beat GLFW without being exhausted if his Sad Palms were in full power. Of course I don't think that it would be like a one hit wonder like what happnened since GLFW was blinded by anger and surprise, but Sad Palms might not be weaker.

What make you think that YG internal power is not much better than GJ?

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
okay...yea, i said it...cuz back then i thought, like you did, that profound should be the same as abundant...so apparently they are not. does it make the difference? It doesn't mean GJ is above GLFW at all.


is this before the 13 years or after? cuz i never found JY making any remark on OYF being better than GJ in terms of internal energy after the 13 years.

and second, rate being faster doesn't mean that he will be out of their league...does it? and if you want to use the quan zhen 9 yin effect...i ask you again, why ZBT hasn't gone way beyond the GReats? Did he not get the QZ training?

No, it doesn't mean GJ is better than GLFW. But poking hole in your posts just gives me a satisfaction that I can't resist .

And I was talking about before the 13 years of course. And I never intend to use the QZ and 9 Yin effect. And I'll say it again, JY never remarked that ZBT benefitted from 9 Yin's internal energy. He only showed us the techniques that he benefitted from. I also know of nothing about improving your internal energy if you never applied the method in your cultivation .So it is up to you to prove that ZBT did in fact benefitted from 9 Yin's energy. Not that it's a relevant point since we really don't know how the weaker part of 9 Yin ZBT knew is compared to the untranslated portion. If the rate of GJ improving is faster than the Greats and GLFW, wich I think is the most probable, then he should be superior to them in all the categories of internal energy, skills, age, and robust energy compared to the greats.

[philip]

No, it doesn't mean GJ is better than GLFW. But poking hole in your posts just gives me a satisfaction that I can't resist

so? why do you bother poking useless holes? it doesn't even make a point. not to mention that you have agreed to it before, or else why did you bother to point it out now?

And I was talking about before the 13 years of course. And I never intend to use the QZ and 9 Yin effect. And I'll say it again, JY never remarked that ZBT benefitted from 9 Yin's internal energy. He only showed us the techniques that he benefitted from. I also know of nothing about improving your internal energy if you never applied the method in your cultivation .So it is up to you to prove that ZBT did in fact benefitted from 9 Yin's energy. Not that it's a relevant point since we really don't know how the weaker part of 9 Yin ZBT knew is compared to the untranslated portion. If the rate of GJ improving is faster than the Greats and GLFW, wich I think is the most probable, then he should be superior to them in all the categories of internal energy, skills, age, and robust energy compared to the greats.

no duh GJ was below OYF's level before the 13 year gap. How does one benefit from the skills but not the internal energy? If ZBT never practiced the skills before and he could integrate them, then why can't be integrate the essence of the internal energy training?
Thirdly, the chinese section in the 1st volume of 9 yin definitely is important and did help....cuz why else would HS write in chinese for the majority? cuz he was bored?

[Anonymous]

Gotta hand it to use, you are tenacious.
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Let's break your formula up and find weaknesses:

1. Okay, the formula I use is that GJ would probably have around40-50% of the Great's internal energy at the end of LOCH in my opinion. As much as he looked equal, JY did said that his internal energy cannot compare to OYF.

--- Basic components of formula not grounded on firm/proven facts. Recall how my formula use character's ages? Also, recall how you use too many "I believe" ... I'm not saying believing is not good but it is "too many assumptions", just using too much for a basis makes your theory less credible.
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2. So GJ moving faster than the Greats at 3.4% annually is my speculation. So GJ was GLFW's equal when GLFW had 20 years more training. Now we found out that JY never did remarked that GJ has slightly less energy than GLFW. GLFW at the end of ROCH should be behind GJ if GJ continued to improve faster than the greats, which is perfectly normal with 9 Yin.

--- Since this percentage is about innerPower amount, the 3.4% of GJ stretched to 16years is 3.4 x 16 or (3.0 x 16) = 48% [Actually greater than 48%]. Since GJ has 48% greater innerPower in post-16years greats, this is just ridiculous. Your theory already proven wrong. Recall YG = GWM and GWM is slightly better than 1Deng [in endurance].
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3. Is it not probableto say GJ would all a sudden improve only at Great level? I personally think so.

--- A sudden hike of improvement is probable but is unfortunately "not noted" by JY. All we see is GWM=(CBT/LWT)=1Deng and GWM=GJ=HYS [long distance calling] and YG=(CBT/LWT)=HYS.
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4. And I do not use these callings as any measurment. [...] Cause, you can't say that all three of the weightlifters are around the same level just cause they can each bench 110 pounds. They can all proform it, but maybe one has the max of 200, one have 250, the last one have 300.

--- They are good indicators, so you cannot abandon them, since YG fans will use them to prove you are wrong. However, what they "really" do is to "filter" out any ridiculously high innerPower results that you may have as improbable.
.

5. BAD ADJUSTMENT by JinYong for GJ's results.

--- haha, you're not getting off that easy [you are casting "confusion"]. The purpose of formulas /theories/stuff is to map and find a plausible explaination of GJ compared to other greats and GWM and YG. If you use "bad adjustments" as a reason and still insist that GJ > GWM, then you have "no basis" to say that GJ > GWM.
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6. Where is GWM's percentage relative to the greats and GJ? And where are your "calculated" results for GWM, GJ, and the greats? (hahaha, I'm evil. )
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Now let's note worthwhile things in your formula:

1. So, if GJ did gain at least 80% of the Great's energy by 13 years or more, that would make him increasing at the rate catching up to the Great at 2.7% per year. 3.4% annually if he had 90%, or 4.2% if he got 100% of OYF's energy.

--- 1) You used OYF=GJ as a solid base to start your formula.
--- 2) You used percentage relative (percentage, ratio, etc) to curve of the greats. These stay constant.
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Additional Comments:
1. Filtering "outliers" [from "statistics"] Some JY is too ridiculous to our overall mapping of progress and we can usually filter them out. [ie. 9Yang: 1year to equal a post-16years great.]
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2. Forgot.

[superboy]

so? why do you bother poking useless holes? it doesn't even make a point. not to mention that you have agreed to it before, or else why did you bother to point it out now?

It's beneficial to GJ in this debate. Get it? And a great way to imprint this in your memory so you learn.............

no duh GJ was below OYF's level before the 13 year gap. How does one benefit from the skills but not the internal energy? If ZBT never practiced the skills before and he could integrate them, then why can't be integrate the essence of the internal energy training?
Thirdly, the chinese section in the 1st volume of 9 yin definitely is important and did help....cuz why else would HS write in chinese for the majority? cuz he was bored?

Cause there are others with opinions that GJ's internal energy was close to the Greats that time.

And I'll ask you how does technqiue benefit? I truely do not see why. IEspecially if it was never apllied during meditation. If you want to make claims, you would need to give evidence to it. You can't ask me to prove something that have no proofs to prove.

[superboy]

--- Basic components of formula not grounded on firm/proven facts. Recall how my formula use character's ages? Also, recall how you use too many "I believe" ... I'm not saying believing is not good but it is "too many assumptions", just using too much for a basis makes your theory less credible.

You can make your numbers then. Since JY siad GJ's intenral energy can't compare to OYF, those are the numbers of my opinion. I just need to make a point of GJ improving stronger. Of course I never did declare they're official.

--- Since this percentage is about innerPower amount, the 3.4% of GJ stretched to 16years is 3.4 x 16 or (3.0 x 16) = 48% [Actually greater than 48%]. Since GJ has 48% greater innerPower in post-16years greats, this is just ridiculous. Your theory already proven wrong. Recall YG = GWM and GWM is slightly better than 1Deng [in endurance].

That is not really that rediculus. remember Yi Deng has no robustness in his energy. So although JY remarked that GLFW's palms are more forceful, it doesn't mean mor energy. Yi Deng was able to make a tie for some time even when his energy sin't as forceful. Could this be an indication of more energy? He was older and have no robustness in energy afterall. GJ's energy was perfectly robust. And why do you find 48 percent rediculous?

--- A sudden hike of improvement is probable but is unfortunately "not noted" by JY. All we see is GWM=(CBT/LWT)=1Deng and GWM=GJ=HYS [long distance calling] and YG=(CBT/LWT)=HYS.

GJ was equal to GLFW in his thirties, so isn't your GLFW=GJ an opinion? And the sudden hike in LOCH is my opinion is just bad adjustment. That is because other reasons to explain it would not make sense.

--- They are good indicators, so you cannot abandon them, since YG fans will use them to prove you are wrong. However, what they "really" do is to "filter" out any ridiculously high innerPower results that you may have as improbable.

Those are indicators of their abundance and profoundness, but it does not indicate that they have the same energy.

--- haha, you're not getting off that easy [you are casting "confusion"]. The purpose of formulas /theories/stuff is to map and find a plausible explaination of GJ compared to other greats and GWM and YG. If you use "bad adjustments" as a reason and still insist that GJ > GWM, then you have "no basis" to say that GJ > GWM.

I posted a lot on this already. Bad adjustments occures most likely when a hero is in the eyes of the reader. Because JY would need to show us how the progress form a loser to a first rate fighter in a very short period of time. So logically, it would be much easier to adjust if the characters where out of sight from the readers. Like during GJ's 13 years of YG's 16. If there is not other explaination that tell us whey GJ's rate decreases exponentially, this is the only one I could think of that is available.

[Anonymous]

Anon: Since this percentage is about innerPower amount, the 3.4% of GJ stretched to 16years is 3.4 x 16 or (3.0 x 16) = 48% [Actually greater than 48%]. Since GJ has 48% greater innerPower in post-16years greats, this is just ridiculous. Your theory already proven wrong. Recall YG = GWM and GWM is slightly better than 1Deng [in endurance].

Super: That is not really that rediculus. remember Yi Deng has no robustness in his energy. So although JY remarked that GLFW's palms are more forceful, it doesn't mean mor energy. Yi Deng was able to make a tie for some time even when his energy sin't as forceful. Could this be an indication of more energy? He was older and have no robustness in energy afterall. GJ's energy was perfectly robust. And we do you find 48 percent rediculous?

According to you, "long distance calling" can be the greats minimum. Well let me officially establish why 48 percent from GJ is ridiculous and establish the MAXIMUM GJ can do, proof:

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GJ_ch39: That two Wan Fuchang although is in the Mongolian armed force the famous warrior, how but endures the Guo Jing supernatural power? The arm ËáÂé, two handles iron gun lets go immediately. The Guo peace is inferior to reverse the spear head, takes advantage of a situation to send to, ding-dong two, two handles iron gun rifle stock hits in two person of chests, two Wan Fuchang [generals] all threw over the chest protector iron armor, the rifle [spear] stock [hilt] could not puncture into the body, but peace [GJ] endogenic force [inner power] as soon as shook for Guo, stands ʱ¿ñ [the two generals] spurts the blood, poured hits discontinues. (Aside: GJ cannot puncture the iron armor of the generals using the hilt/stock of the spear)

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YG_ch39: A Yang spear person [YG], when stands executes. His [YG] left arm marvelous ability [Shen Gong] is practices from the mountain torrent sea tide, this lance [spear] flies throws the potential, then is the rock also can insert, much less average man flesh and blood? His each lance [spear] all was aims at general which went against ¿ø passes through the [iron] armor to send out, has shot 17 lances in a little while, has killed 17 Mongolian brave generals. (Aside: Note, YG's shoulder has already been injured by GWM prior this event. )

Thus, your theory is wrong and GJ is around greats-level. Gotcha! Ask any translators to clarify the chinese for better clarification.