The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[rabadi]

Originally posted by -NSX-
YG is likely to beat GJ because he has street smartness. He can just tap GJ's shoulder from behind and sad palm his face as he turns.

If you are talking about street smartness, you might as well invite WXB in. He could also just tap YG's shoulder from behind and stab YG using his knife

[Condor83]

I'll in the opinion that L/R Hand Technique did improve ZBT's capabilities, and I believe that ZBT could execute two Vacant Fist stances using L/R Hand Technique. After all, he was the inventor of both L/R Hand Technique and Vacant Fist. Is there mentioned anywhere in the novel that ZBT could not perform Vacant Fist using L/R Hand Technique?

I believe L/R Hand improves fighting technique and capabilities also. Yet, many are convinced that it is just smoke and mirrors claiming that it does little more than trick and confuse the opponent. I've never seen him do two different Vacant Fist stances using L/R Hand. I think, but I'm not sure, that he uses VF along with QZ kung-fu or maybe some of what WCY taught him.

[philip]

hm....i don't think he was quite "sad" when he fought ZBT or HYS

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by philip
hm....i don't think he was quite "sad" when he fought ZBT or HYS

Yeung Gor had a permanent fund of latent sadness as long as he was separated from Little Dragon Girl. It wasn't always on the surface, but it was always there . . . and would remain there until he and Little Dragon Girl were reunited.

[ToOn99]

Does it mean after he reunited with XLN, his Sad palm lost its power ?

[sixdays]

Originally posted by superboy
You can also say that GJ that time were also much inferior to H7G, so doesn't that make the situations parallel?

i'm sorry...am i reading your post wrong? because i DID say that GJ was inferior to H7G, and that's why he had the advantage. we see all of the Greats not using full power against GJ because they don't want to hurt him; they only increased their powers to fullout when over 100 moves had passed. by then, it was too late. that's all i'm saying.

ZBT did fought QQR before at LOCH, and QQR was around the level of the Greats. At that time, ZBT stilled needed to fight his hard Iron Palms which are said to be at the same leagues as Hl18Z etc. He fought to a draw, and eventually QQR loses out when he start using the L/R techniques. I think the L/R techniques can also help you have better controling of your fists too, not just what kind of palm techniques. XLN used it on sword movements and it was very effective.

are you honestly saying that QQR in LOCH can compare to ANY great in ROCH? the power level here is so astronomically different that they can't even be mentioned in the same breath. even QQR in ROCH can kick the butt of QQR in LOCH.

there's no basis that L/R hand technique increases the "mobility" of your fists, only that 2 different techniques can be used through your hands. if you can prove that L/R hand technique improves your fist like QKDLY does to internal energy (which it seems like you are saying) then i will give this point to you. until then...

This is a mere unbasis speculation. Can I say YG would lose a battle to a Great because of his arrogance? And on GJ, I found that to be very unlikely that he will do that, at least not to an enemy. We never see him goes, "Oh well OYF, you're much older, so I'll blast out half of my energy first then fight you."

you CAN say YG would lose a battle to a Great because of his arrogance. in fact, he almost did against GWM when he didn't bring his iron sword. we can also say that GWM lost because of HIS pride. there's nothing wrong with factoring people's personalities in a battle. we see in the beginning of ROCH that even though GJ was battling OYF, he still DID give his elder respect. therefore, it's not a big stretch that GJ would give some ground to make a fight fair; no one's saying that he's gonna handicap himself horribly before fighting.

YG purposely rotated his chi around like he was really fire deviated and wasted GJ's couple of hours of internal energy on him. And during the incident GJ was climbing up the wall, JY had already remarked about that he would have been successful even when the arrow were coming at him if it weren't for YG that time. And that will technically mean YG didn't really save him to. He was the one that caused it.

this is really a moot point. so what if GJ gave some energy to YG? if H7G can regain all of his energy in half a year using 9yin, i'm sure that GJ can regain 3 hours' worth in the "16 years" that you claim he practiced in. honestly, i don't know where he would find the time, between raising his children and the ever-growing problem of war. after all, we didn't see GJ train 9yin in the years BEFORE YG went away; what makes you think that GJ trained after? it's just speculation...it may be likely, but you have no way to prove it. and before you say, "well do you have any way to DISPROVE it?"...that's just a circular argument. we can argue all day like that...but since you are trying to make a point that GJ trained, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it.

Plus, we can't really say that GJ and GLFW was equals 16 years ago, because there were already a gap.

of course we can say GJ and GLFW are pretty much equal. have you been reading the posts of anonymous and myself in the last couple of pages?

It will still increase your fists' mobility as I said earilier.

and i have disproved that theory, as i have said earlier. bring me the proof, and i'll agree...

That is still a big unsure. We still haven't know how good 56 years old GJ is. Still don't understand why people will say taht GJ should be around Great level when it is seen by everyone that the 13 year gap allower GJ to improve to Great level. Then we give him another 16 years gap.

again, it is a mistake to think that the progession of GJ's martial arts will be the same. here's an example:

i am a white belt in karate and i train for 5 years to get a black belt. i can now beat up a white belt like they were a child.

now, i train for 5 more years. does that mean i am twice as powerful as i was when i had the black belt? absolutely not. why? because to defeat a white belt is not hard; they don't know any techniques yet. however, a black belt already knows many techniques, supposedly all necessary techniques. further training is only refinement, and though you can become quite good it is pretty much impossible to match your previous growth in martial arts. that's just the way things are.

if we all just kept improving without limit, then why didn't michael jordan become better when he came back into the nba? everything has a limit, superboy...just face it.

a couple things.

1. so, once and for all...are you trying to say that YG defeated GWM without trouble, and that's why YG = ZBT? your sentence reads:

"ZBT being able to equal GLFW without using L/R"

so if we replace this with YG (since ZBT = YG), the sentence reads:

"YG being able to equal GLFW without using ____"

what is the blank? ironsword? i personally don't think ironsword is as good for YG as sadpalm (at its highest form) is, so i can't really understand your argument.

2. again, i've proved that using L/R hand technique is not necessarily an advantage. therefore, the ZBT=YG thing is not valid.

I think ZBT also used the L/R technique at the start without the need to use two different types of palms right?

how does that statement even answer my point? ZBT can only use vacant fist as a defense against GWM; if he's using both hands as vacant fists, that only proves that GWM is striking out too quickly for ZBT to counterattack.

---

so basically, i stand by all my points. i don't see where you've disproved me at all...ZBT is still inferior to GWM, and since YG beat GWM it's only safe to assume that YG > ZBT.

as to why GJ is more powerful than everyone, all you can say is "well he MUST have improved over the 16 years like everyone". you know, even if he did improve, it's not like the remaining Greats didn't improve as well. i'm confident that HYS, 1deng and ZBT are more powerful at the end of ROCH than at the beginning of it. i mean, GWM was much more powerful...

so where does it say that GJ was more powerful after 16 years? nowhere.

where does it say HOW MUCH MORE powerful GJ became? nowhere.

your whole argument is based on the assumption that GJ would become more powerful. we don't know that. however, we know that YG increased dramatically, surpassing all other Greats. are you gonna rely on the fact that GWM is scared of him? GWM was scared of YG after he caught a plate with his finger. GWM is retarded, you can't really trust the guy's judgement...

and also, that argument that "YG said that GJ was the best, so he must be the best" is wrong. after all, YG said while facing ZBT that ZBT was the most fierce opponent he encountered with sadpalm; later, he said the same thing about GWM. since YG never fought GJ, how could he know GJ's level for sure? it's only if they duke it out, and that's what we're debating right now.

[sixdays]

Does it mean after he reunited with XLN, his Sad palm lost its power ?

it means that YG forgot what made his sadpalm powerful in the first place. all the kid knew was that he created the palms out of sadness, and that it was incredibly powerful. YG never knew that it was sadness that made his palms powerful until the fight against GWM.

after all, how could he know that sadness was the key to his palms? he was in a sad state all the time, like ken says...so naturally, the palms should always work. however, the palms became more powerful when he REALIZED that sadness was the key to the palms. like anonymous says, kungfu reaches its most refined state when the origin is understood. when YG understood the true origin of his kungfu (sadness), he became stronger because he was able to utilize the palms correctly, not because the palms were greater in strength.

[duguxiaojing]

at 56 GJ was probally at his peak or close to it i doubt he was in a decline phase yet already seeing how OYF and H7G were stronger in ROCH then in LOCH.

[duguxiaojing]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
at 56 GJ was probally at his peak or close to it i doubt he was in a decline phase yet already seeing how OYF and H7G were stronger in ROCH then in LOCH.

GWM was scared of YG after he caught a plate with his finger. GWM is retarded, you can't really trust the guy's judgement

This was something none of the other mongolian warriros could do. there was probollay some QZ technique involved with it backed with ZBT inner power they were impressed that YG was able to catch it since he was so young they had looked down on his skills in reality it was because he had ancient tomb tech to counter.

[superboy]

are you honestly saying that QQR in LOCH can compare to ANY great in ROCH? the power level here is so astronomically different that they can't even be mentioned in the same breath. even QQR in ROCH can kick the butt of QQR in LOCH.

there's no basis that L/R hand technique increases the "mobility" of your fists, only that 2 different techniques can be used through your hands. if you can prove that L/R hand technique improves your fist like QKDLY does to internal energy (which it seems like you are saying) then i will give this point to you. until then....

OKay, if you knew the QQR in the novel, then you would know that he is 'on par' with the Greats in terms if martial arts. There is a possiblity that he might lose, but if he were inferior, it is only by a very very slight margin. PLease use informations from the book next time, because I'm not a very fast typer.

and i have disproved that theory, as i have said earlier. bring me the proof, and i'll agree...

Easy, XLN was able to use two type of sword strokes from the Jade Heart sword play at the same times. Which means that it will greatly improve your mobility even if you don't use two different palms with different type of energy. That's the key points, or why would he ask GJ to draw a square and circle at the same time?

how does that statement even answer my point? ZBT can only use vacant fist as a defense against GWM; if he's using both hands as vacant fists, that only proves that GWM is striking out too quickly for ZBT to counterattack.

It means that even if you are not using different techniques, you fist can act like it's controled by two fighter. Reacts and moves a lot more efficient than just one brain, since you usually can't control two things at once too well.

you CAN say YG would lose a battle to a Great because of his arrogance. in fact, he almost did against GWM when he didn't bring his iron sword. we can also say that GWM lost because of HIS pride. there's nothing wrong with factoring people's personalities in a battle. we see in the beginning of ROCH that even though GJ was battling OYF, he still DID give his elder respect. therefore, it's not a big stretch that GJ would give some ground to make a fight fair; no one's saying that he's gonna handicap himself horribly before fighting.

But you made like it sounds like it though.

this is really a moot point. so what if GJ gave some energy to YG? if H7G can regain all of his energy in half a year using 9yin, i'm sure that GJ can regain 3 hours' worth in the "16 years" that you claim he practiced in. honestly, i don't know where he would find the time, between raising his children and the ever-growing problem of war. after all, we didn't see GJ train 9yin in the years BEFORE YG went away; what makes you think that GJ trained after? it's just speculation...it may be likely, but you have no way to prove it. and before you say, "well do you have any way to DISPROVE it?"...that's just a circular argument. we can argue all day like that...but since you are trying to make a point that GJ trained, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it.

You can say that GJ has his stuffs, but who don't? Before HYS whoams China, he was the master of the Island and a father. Yi Deng were a king with his country to take care of and later need to study Buddism, H7G being all lazy and the chief of the world's number one clan, and GLFW was the Imperial priest and needed to lead lamaist followers in the entire empire. How much times can being a father be, since I don't believe he's the motherly type. GJ in the other had, has no official ranks, political duties, etc. It is true that he trains the soldiers, but there are also many qualified generals there that would make works much lighter. There was a long peace time when the Mongols were quiet and weren't invading. YG also stucked his nose into other people's businese while being Mr. Divine Condor. The burden is also on you why GJ would suddenly stop training first? If there is no reason for him to stop, then how do I get the burden? Thing is, the possibility that he didn't stop is bigger, which is my main point. Since there is no for sure argument on GJ vs YG, we can't only try to win each other with a 'larger possibilty'.

of course we can say GJ and GLFW are pretty much equal. have you been reading the posts of anonymous and myself in the last couple of pages?

Yes, they were close, but we can see in Mongolia camp that there were already a gap between GLFW and GJ. GJ was supperior. And how can I prove that? Because an unarmed GJ was able to fend GLFW(with his wheels), Xiaoxiangzi, (poison staff), Nimoxing (metal snake), Yin Kexi (jewel whip) quite well. If it wasn't for YG, he would have got away without a scratch.
And also, a quote from an expert that read the 3rd version: Two times Yang Guo thought that Guo Jing was peerless, the first time when he saw the two idiotic Wu brothers fighting each other. The second time he returned to Xiangyang after Guo Fu hacked off his arm, he thought about revenge. In his thoughts he said that:"Uncle Guo's 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms were likely to be invicible in the world."
By the way, Yang Guo never thought himself to be number 1 after learning the heavy sword skill of Dugu.

So now in the new version, YG no longer thought that he's invincible with his Iron Sword. Can you see that JY was trying to say something? A couple of years back, GJ was just as good as OYF, but know YG after meeting all the powerful martial arts master has said GJ was the best.

This means that GJ was the best even before the 16 years. Hey, you first have to say why YG's speculation is less reliable than your's first.

again, it is a mistake to think that the progession of GJ's martial arts will be the same. here's an example:

i am a white belt in karate and i train for 5 years to get a black belt. i can now beat up a white belt like they were a child.

now, i train for 5 more years. does that mean i am twice as powerful as i was when i had the black belt? absolutely not. why? because to defeat a white belt is not hard; they don't know any techniques yet. however, a black belt already knows many techniques, supposedly all necessary techniques. further training is only refinement, and though you can become quite good it is pretty much impossible to match your previous growth in martial arts. that's just the way things are.

if we all just kept improving without limit, then why didn't michael jordan become better when he came back into the nba? everything has a limit, superboy...just face it.

I find it not too convincing to use karate in real life as an analogy. First of all, there is only a limit to strength, speed, and stamina that a person in really life can gain. While in internal energy, Taoist energy just not even does not slow down slow down, but increases as you practices. By the way, this is sort of true in real life too with the chi stuff when you practice internal chi intead of external ones like YG. Makes me think that JY is at least quite knowledgable on these stuff. Also, at least in internal energy, lets see it like a bank account. You add $300 dollars every month. By the times it's 3 years, you have $10,800? So how does that slow down? And we also see Sweeper Monk train up to his level too, which I think is about 10 times stronger than YG. Therefore, GJ is still far from reaching the martial arts limit. So, you face it.

so basically, i stand by all my points. i don't see where you've disproved me at all...ZBT is still inferior to GWM, and since YG beat GWM it's only safe to assume that YG > ZBT.

as to why GJ is more powerful than everyone, all you can say is "well he MUST have improved over the 16 years like everyone". you know, even if he did improve, it's not like the remaining Greats didn't improve as well. i'm confident that HYS, 1deng and ZBT are more powerful at the end of ROCH than at the beginning of it. i mean, GWM was much more powerful...

so where does it say that GJ was more powerful after 16 years? nowhere.

where does it say HOW MUCH MORE powerful GJ became? nowhere.

your whole argument is based on the assumption that GJ would become more powerful. we don't know that. however, we know that YG increased dramatically, surpassing all other Greats. are you gonna rely on the fact that GWM is scared of him? GWM was scared of YG after he caught a plate with his finger. GWM is retarded, you can't really trust the guy's judgement...

and also, that argument that "YG said that GJ was the best, so he must be the best" is wrong. after all, YG said while facing ZBT that ZBT was the most fierce opponent he encountered with sadpalm; later, he said the same thing about GWM. since YG never fought GJ, how could he know GJ's level for sure? it's only if they duke it out, and that's what we're debating right now.

Where does it states? That is why we are speculating. Or it would mean that we can only compare characters that actually fought each other before. Before you ask me why I think GJ still train, you first have to tell me why he will suddenly stop. Possibilty and logics is pretty much what I tried to use. Again, you can't ask a person to prove a negitive. Got some negitive on my side, but you got more. We know that he is not a lazy person, and he don't really have that much works to do, so why? The possibility that he train would be greater than he will just stop. And just because YG said it is not true? I don't think you will say that if GJ said YG was the stronger. Fact is, the remark I'd given at least can be consider 'more reliable' than your just mere speculation that seems kind of self-serving. You can't excuse all my evidence with just a "Does it have to be true". You first have to provide the reason why your remark is more trust-worthy than YG's. Excuse my tone, that's just the way I speak.

[duguxiaojing]

So superboy u can agree that QQR is

infererior, it is only by a ver very slight margin

in this situation but u always disagree with ZBT being better than greats/GWM by a "veryy very slight margin" when we debate.your always like "the fight didnt last enough for us to know GWM=ZBT "even when its quite apparent that they seem dead locked and no winner can be decided for at least a couple hundred stances. Yet in this case u can admit QQR is only slightly inferior and he "might lose". a bit hyocritcal dont u think?And by the way 6day is talking about the QQR in LOCH not in ROCH.Your right thought the one in ROCH was proboally close to greats though 1deng would have to go all out to defeat him using XTG as well as 1yz.i think it was implied that 1deng would have been able to defeat him wit both skills.If i remember correctly(correct me if im wrong) Yg commented that 1deng inner power was superior to QQR when he watched QQR striking 1deng.I think this is why YG stepped in seeing that 1deng was stronger but did not fight back.

[superboy]

Not that I'm trying to use reason that benefit myself, but in LOCH. GJ also commented that QQR was indeed on par with OYF and H7G, and he had already been quite familiar with their levels that time. Also, the Iron Palms is not inferior to HL18Z. And during the fight od Yi Deng and QQR in ROCH, Yi Deng lost badly without relying on his 1YZ. And it was said that if Yi Deng used the combination of TXG and 1YZ, then he "might" be able to defeat QQR after a long battle. Even with his best skills, Jin Yong still stretches out that it was a "might" after a long fight. So although I too have a gut feeling that Yi Deng will win, it still proves that QQR is still 'on par' with a Great. He's not the weakling portrayed by the adaptations. Plus, we also knew that it took the much stronger GLFW of 16 years later a whole day to finally be able to defeat him.
edit: And why i think ZBT is more than slightly better than a Great is becasue he was able to match evenly with QQR without his L/R t4echnique, while the other Greats can't do it without their signiture moves. And then ZBT was able to win and chase QQR just after he decided to use his L/R technique. So it depends on what you consider as slight.

[Anonymous]

c83: ZBT used his entire 72 sequences of Vacant Fist and all of his QZ kung-fu. This shouldn't take an entire day. KCY was only defeated after ZBT used L/R Hand.

--- Until we can read the passage in the book, it's hard to tell how KCY/QQR really loses. Could be QQR/KCY is inferior technique-wise or he could like GWMlv10 during the battle with 1Deng, has a little mental instability. <shrugs>
.
.

c83: Remember ZBT was there to bring WY the head of KCY or else she leads his scorned lover Ying Gu to him so he was not there messing around. KCY thought he could hold his own with the other greats but ran from ZBT as he thought there was no way to defeat this crazy old man.

--- Maybe ZBT is related to QQR/KCY's memory of YingGu?
.
.

Super: GLFW may not be able to last any longer than ZBT if ZBT only use Vacant Fist, the softist technique in the world. Soft techniques tends to use up very small ortion of internlal energy.
[...]
Super: at least it sort of tells you that if ZBT were to fight a Great, he can probably at least draw without using L/R, and possibly win with it since a Great does not have as much raw strength as GLFW.

--- First, I've seen this used alot: "softest technique uses little innerPower" thing, so I will ask experts the proof in "JY novels." Second, assuming softest=(less requires less innerPower) and weaken your opponent, then the opponent can counter this by just blocking or redirecting the attack and still approximately the same. It's a noWin-noWin situation (a "tie"), that ultimately depends who got the willPower+innerPower in the end.
.
.

Super: It is true that 9 Yin gave ZBT influences on his martial arts, but never the less, his internal energy are all QZ energy, and had caught up woth the Greats. And it's another point to 9 Yin.

--- First, ZBT is "already" better than the "greats" at the end of LOCH "if" he used 9Yin. Second, ZBT is "still" that little better than the "greaters" after the 16years separation. So, QZ and his 9Yin stuff is bull, just as the AncientTombIceBed is kinda bull. We should use their "actual" battles as guidelines first, and whatever anyone says as second: even if they are correct.
.
.

Super: We don't need to ponder on this, since I belieive that 4 years more cultivation isn't even a lot. At least GJ still fare welled against GLFW at the camp just right before he exerted much internal energy on YG.

--- We should ponder this cuz GJ is using "9YIN" and based on your theory, 3 to 4 years of GJ is like 6 to 8 years for GWM [That's A LOT.] And GJ's 3 to 4 years doesnt even have any effect on his battles: a slight indication that 9Yin is bull. [And I'm compiling these various slight reasons into a "big" reason. Beware the Hobbits!]
.
.

Super: Where did you get this? LOCH? It's hard to believe 1Deng will "lose" to QQR/CCY.
It was in ROCH. Hard to believe, yet the truth. Yi Deng can't defeat QQR if he doesn't use his YYZ.

--- Basing this on ROCH83, 1Deng "allowed" QQR to win or he allowed QQR to hit him.
.
.

Super: It was really just defense, since it was bacically a stale mate. And wouldn't ZBT being able to equal GLFW without using L/R suggest ZBT=YG?

--- Like 6Days said, GWMlv10 got "two" hands and ZBT seems to be "defending"(which doesnt "look" good). Anyway, even though YG was having a hard time with L/R technique w/o using SadPalms (we never established if YG can take L/R w/o SadPalms since GX's interference) but his performance against GWMlv10 w/ his sleeves indicates having "one hand" is not a problem and having just "SeaPalms" instead of "SadPalms" is not a problem. Besides, GWM'sAttack=SeaPalms=SadPalms(approximately), so ZBT actually ties w/ GWMlv10 (w/ or w/o L/R technique?).
.
.

Arch: But Guo Jing can use HL18z(offensive) on one hand while using the soft vacant fist(defensive) on the other with the L/R technique....

--- And YG can use (SeaPalms or SadPalms) vs. HL18Z and sleeve vs. VacantFist. No advantage bud.
.
.

pj: Fact that Guo Jing > Yang Guo? Is there any concrete evidence to support this thought?

--- Is there concrete evidence YG < GJ?
.
.

Phil: okay.....for the sake of the argument, letz just assume (assume until i can find a more solid argument ), that YG=ZBT, and ZBT>GLFW, then, since ZBT > HYS, 1Deng, then where is evidence that GJ>ZBT?

--- YG=ZBT and YG defeats GWMlv10, and you conclude ZBT>GWMlv10. The logic is sound; however, this logic only works if GWMlv10 didnt get to fight ZBT, which both "did." And the battle was a "tie" and both didnt know the outcome. So, logic is correct; however, "reality" has higher priority. So, ZBT is not greater than GWM. hehe.
.
.

Arch: I'm quite sure that GJ > YG but I'm not sure about GJ between ZBT

--- Ya gotta prove it man and stop following GJ after the 16years and "waive" his fight.
.
.

Hit: I understand your reasoning but it still doesn't really explain in other words how the other Greats can still catch up with GWM and YG despite they are in their 90's and lack of intensive training.So no reason to doubt that GJ could also made that much improvement.

--- The "old greats" been all over the place (which fits my definition of "adventuring" and gaining experience), while GJ is "stuck" in XiangYang. ["adventures" with his wife doesnt count --GuoPolo ]
.
.

Hit: True but when your inner power is about equal level,then technique can be a deciding factor.Just look at H7G and OYF at the 3rd day they only decide to use technique as deciding factor on who is better.

--- First, H7G and OYF didnt pass the 16years. Second, YG vs. ZBT proves L/R technique is less useful (which finally end in "innerPower contest."), GWM vs. 1Deng (another "innerPower contest"), YG vs. HYS (another "innerPower contest"), YG vs. GWM (same) except YG's finalStrike move. [And the trend? GJ vs. YG is another "innerPower contest" and like the rest depends on "youth" mainly cuz they have roughly the same innerPower (newlyGained or oldlyPreserved.]
.
.

Hit: One more think,did JY ever mentioned that YG practised QZ inner power?He only know their formula but never said he practised their inner power training because I can't remember ROCH that much.

--- YG wouldnt progress in QZ swordplay, a part of JadeMaidenSwordplay, if he didnt. Of course, he also draws his technique from JadeHeartManual innerPower:

Xiao Long Nuu [explaining AncientTomb's training] said, “Yes! Let’s take a look. The first step, you have to learn our sect’s skills. The second step is to learn the skills of Quan Zhen sect [left by WangChongYang to train himself during his tomb years]. The third step is to learn the skill that counters Quan Zhen sect’s skills, the [Jade Heart Manual]. When my master passed away, I was fourteen years old. I have learnt all our sect’s skills, and had just started to practise Quan Zhen’s martial arts;
[...]
Yang Guo was delighted and said, “That’s great. Even if Qiu Chu Ji, Hao Da Tong and the rest of their skills were higher, they could not be better than Wong Chong Yang. All you’ve got to do is practise the skills left by our ancestor and you’ll be able to beat all the Taoists.”
[...]
Xiao Long Nuu listened to the meaning of the song and said, “It does sound like the important aspects of practising Quan Zhen’s kung fu. If you know more, that’ll be great.” So Yang Guo recited all the formulae that Zhao Zhi Jing had taught him. The formulae that Zhao Zhi Jing had taught him was the basics of Quan Zhen’s advanced internal energy cultivation, but because he wasn’t taught how to use it, the ‘spring flows’, ‘twelve palaces’ and ‘back intent’ were all words to him and didn’t understand, so he just remembered it and didn’t use it.
[...]
Xiao Long Nuu was more experienced and pointed out the key points, and then Yang Guo understood immediately. Within a few months, the two managed to understand and grasp the essence [aside: as in essence of the innerPower training too, which YangGuo incorporates and] of the skills that Wong Chong Yang left on the ceiling.
[...]
If she fought with Yang Guo, she would know that although the stances [QZ sword stances] were real on the outside, underneath it was the Ancient Tomb’s kung fu [technique], but from it’s appearance, it was hard to distinguish between the two. Yang Guo has learnt the Quan Zhen song [innerPower formula] from Zhao Zhi Jing, and practised it after [XLN interprets it], and so his Quan Zhen kung fu weren’t completely a fake. Lu Wu Shuang and Hong Ling Bo looked on, dazzled.
[...]
In the Quan Zhen sect, as soon as one has refined their kung fu to a high level, they will practise lightness kung fu so later on they will be able to use it when practising the [Big Dipper Formation]. Although Yang Guo is now using the steps of Quan Zhen’s kung fu, but his breathing and circulation are from the formulae of the [Jade Heart Manual]. The Ancient Tomb’s lightness kung fu was second to none in the world, as soon as he used it, the two skilled Beggar Clan fighters were not able to catch up, (--Aside: Yeah, YG is powered by JadeHeartManual. But another interpretation is that YG felt JadeHeartManual serves him better in this situation.)
[...]
Yang Guo has learnt Quan Zhen sword techniques in the Ancient Tomb so of course he knew the essence of the sword skills, but he just learnt it without really practising it, no matter what he would not be able to demonstrate this stance with such profoundness [as Ye Luu Qi]. (--Aside: Meaning, YG didnt respect QZ as much as he respect AncientTomb techniques when he was young; however, he did once he read 9Yin-derived counters from WangChongYang.)
[...]
Yang Guo saw that she [HR] was pale and couldn’t help from worrying, he felt her hand was slightly cold, he became bold and secretly circulated his chi and sent a warm energy from his hand into her. When he and Xiao Long Nuu was practising the [Jade Heart Manual] on mount Zhong Nan, he had become very fluent in this technique of passing energy through the palms, but he was afraid that his and Huang Rong’s internal energy will clash with each other so at the start he only sent a little, afterwards when he felt no resistance, he started to increase the energy. Huang Rong felt the internal energy that he was passing on [to her] was soft and concentrated, it was very different to the internal energies of the Quan Zhen sect, but it was soft and fluid, it wasn’t below the skilled fighters of Quan Zhen, her body had a use for it and in a short while she felt the opposing chi and blood of hers became more fluent and comfortable, her cheeks glowed, she was surprised, “Where did the child learnt this advanced internal energy?” She smiled at him.

[Anonymous]

Hit:
You mentioned that ZBT couldn't use L/R hand on GWM because GWM was too fast in his attack but this shouldn't be true.GJ at 2nd Wah Shan was able to use L/R hand on H7G when being attacked by H7G dragon palm.

--- That was the end of LOCH, now in ROCH and after the 16years, this doesnt work. The "greats" are much better. Refer to my prev-previous msg (regarding innerPower).
.
.
.
Now, get ready GJ fans for a "disasterous" revelation:
1. YG knows 9Yin innerPower techniques! (how much, we dont know). Just as I thought cuz WangChongYang use 9Yin to defeat JadeHeartManual's innerPowerTraining (which includes QZ innerPowerTraining), which in turn defeat QZ's_innerPOwerTraining. Think about this: add QZ advancedTraining, add "JadeHeartManual", and add in DGQB's training and YG has a higher chance to kick GJ's butt. [These examples are techniques that could increase innerPower over time.][I was actually edit/search YG using QZ innerPower techniques and I got the motherlode!]

ROCH, Scene of the Fake Wedding:
Lu Wu Shuang’s was pleasantly surprised and called out, “[One Laugh Overturns the Country] (yi xiao qing guo)!” This was a stance that she had just invented. A captivating beauty could overturn cities and countries with a smile, but how could this be used to fight with others?
Yang Guo was startled, he immediately laughed out loud, ‘ha’ ‘ha’ ‘ha’ ‘ha’, ‘hei’ ‘hei’ ‘hei’ ‘hei’, ‘hu’ ‘hu’ ‘he’ ‘he’, and circulated the profound internal energy of the [Nine Yin Manual]. Although he hasn’t refined this internal energy to a good level that could be used to fight off skilled fighters, the three band five beggars were just run of the mill fighters, when they heard this strange laugh, they couldn’t stop their heads from shaking and eyes from being dazzled, their body shook a few times and fell down onto the floor.

--- After this revelation, why didnt YG (or did he?) continue to train 9Yin innerPower if it's all powerful? [One arm can still "circulate"/train the power.] Could it be that DGQB's techniques are "better"? Now why couldnt YG have twice the innerPower accumulation that GJ once enjoyed against GWM?
--- For those who voted for GJ, it's not too late to switch sides.

[duguxiaojing]

1deng did not fight back against QQR if i remember correctly he did not raise a hand and just took the strikes he refused to fight. if u dont fight of course your going 2 lose.1deng did not use 1YZ against him. Im not arguing that QQR is not slightly below the greats but im almost postive he will be defeated. But how can u say QQR is slightly below the greats and then say ZBT is more than slightly better than the greats? (im assuming your talking about the new greats at the end of ROCH right?) YG=ZBT and YG=WYS therefore ZBT=greats. Unless u think YG was not goin "all out" against WYS which is contrary to all your post in the YG and GJ thread.

[duguxiaojing]

After this revelation, why didnt YG (or did he?) continue to train 9Yin innerPower if it's all powerful? [One arm can still "circulate"/train the power.] Could it be that DGQB's techniques are "better"? Now why couldnt YG have twice the innerPower accumulation that GJ once enjoyed against GWM?

YG had no access 2 9yin where was he gonna learn it from? He realized the power of 9yin and trained and memorized the pices he could get with XLNd.He proboally took the bits and pieces he had as far as he could go he's knowledge is NOWHERE NEAR GJ and WY this was stated in the novel .

[duguxiaojing]

Yes, they were close, but we can see in Mongolia camp that there were already a gap between GLFW and GJ. GJ was supperior. And how can I prove that? Because an unarmed GJ was able to fend GLFW(with his wheels), Xiaoxiangzi, (poison staff), Nimoxing (metal snake), Yin Kexi (jewel whip) quite well. If it wasn't for YG, he would have got away without a scratch.

Not true at all had all of the fighters went all out on GJ he would have died. He used big dipper formation and the fact that all the mongolian warriors were fighting with each other for a title to draw. During that fight it was even stated that Gj and Gwm were equal in reality seperated by the smallest margin. I do agree that GJ proboally win in a fight but it would take A VERY LONG time to decide the winner. Had all the mongo fighters stepped back and let GWM and GJ duke it out i think Gj would defeat GWM but be either drained or severly injured than slaughtered by the 4 other high hands. Thats my interpertation enyways the book says they were mere breaths away from each other martial arts wise.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
YG had no access 2 9yin where was he gonna learn it from? He realized the power of 9yin and trained and memorized the pices he could get with XLNd.He proboally took the bits and pieces he had as far as he could go he's knowledge is NOWHERE NEAR GJ and WY this was stated in the novel .

Yup. It was already posted in another thread (sorry, too lazy to find it and to link it here) that YG had NO access to FULL 9 Yin. So Anonymous, thanks, but no thanks. I still voted for GJ

[Ken Cheng]

In the battle of Gwok Jing vs. the Golden Wheel Monk + four other Mongol mercenaries, I think that even under the best circumstances (and the circumstances Gwok Jing was up again were certainly not in his favor), Gwok Jing could only succeed in getting away safely from his enemies, not defeat the five of them outright. The Golden Wheel Monk was no worse than comparable to Gwok Jing in overall martial arts, and three of the four other mercenaries (Wan Hak Sai, Siu Seung Tze, Lui Mor Singh) were said to be of a higher level of martial arts than even the Cheun Jen Sect second generation disciples Ma Yuk, Yau Chui Gei, and Wong Chui 1. The odds against Gwok Jing to win against those five warriors were a bit overwhelming.

But during LOCH, Chow Bak Tung succeeded in fending off both West Poison Au Yeung Fung and Kau Cheen Yan simultaneously for a time, so you never know . . .

[superboy]

--- First, ZBT is "already" better than the "greats" at the end of LOCH "if" he used 9Yin. Second, ZBT is "still" that little better than the "greaters" after the 16years separation. So, QZ and his 9Yin stuff is bull, just as the AncientTombIceBed is kinda bull. We should use their "actual" battles as guidelines first, and whatever anyone says as second: even if they are correct.

This is no bull, because it was a remark of JY on several occasions.

Basing this on ROCH83, 1Deng "allowed" QQR to win or he allowed QQR to hit him.

That adaptation is not entirely correct. Heck, we see KCY got his a$$ kicked by OYF in LOCH '83. And in the novel, OYF does not have such an ability. He isn't that good to beat QQR that badly.

--- We should ponder this cuz GJ is using "9YIN" and based on your theory, 3 to 4 years of GJ is like 6 to 8 years for GWM [That's A LOT.] And GJ's 3 to 4 years doesnt even have any effect on his battles: a slight indication that 9Yin is bull. [And I'm compiling these various slight reasons into a "big" reason. Beware the Hobbits!]

Oh yeah, just found out something yesterday. It was said that GLFW had a slight advantage to GJ during the the hero meeting in terms of internal energy(I thought otherwise later), and GJ got better martial arts skills. The Mongolia Camp was about one year later I think. So my thing was a bull. But that is good then since you cannot prove that 9 Yin is a bull now.

--- Like 6Days said, GWMlv10 got "two" hands and ZBT seems to be "defending"(which doesnt "look" good). Anyway, even though YG was having a hard time with L/R technique w/o using SadPalms (we never established if YG can take L/R w/o SadPalms since GX's interference) but his performance against GWMlv10 w/ his sleeves indicates having "one hand" is not a problem and having just "SeaPalms" instead of "SadPalms" is not a problem. Besides, GWM'sAttack=SeaPalms=SadPalms(approximately), so ZBT actually ties w/ GWMlv10 (w/ or w/o L/R technique?).

I don't think we can call that defending right? It is only smart in battles that you use soft techniques if you know that you cannot match the strenght of your opponent. I doubt YG can withstand the L/R techniques without using Sad Palms though, or YG would have won. ZBT didn't need to result in L/R technique again if YG wasn't using Sad Palms neither.

1deng did not fight back against QQR if i remember correctly he did not raise a hand and just took the strikes he refused to fight. if u dont fight of course your going 2 lose.1deng did not use 1YZ against him. Im not arguing that QQR is not slightly below the greats but im almost postive he will be defeated. But how can u say QQR is slightly below the greats and then say ZBT is more than slightly better than the greats? (im assuming your talking about the new greats at the end of ROCH right?) YG=ZBT and YG=WYS therefore ZBT=greats. Unless u think YG was not goin "all out" against WYS which is contrary to all your post in the YG and GJ thread.

That is only in the adaptations. Yi Deng would have died if he took on those strikes. Yi Deng used his palms, and of course he will lose, since he is not H7G. And I never really stressed that WYS is neccesary equal to YG, although I do not think that he will defeat YG in a battle. That contest of YG was a test in the power of their techniques, and it was a draw. But we don't know what will actually happen in a battle. I say HYS will lose, but probably he is not much inferior to YG in my opinion.

Not true at all had all of the fighters went all out on GJ he would have died. He used big dipper formation and the fact that all the mongolian warriors were fighting with each other for a title to draw. During that fight it was even stated that Gj and Gwm were equal in reality seperated by the smallest margin. I do agree that GJ proboally win in a fight but it would take A VERY LONG time to decide the winner. Had all the mongo fighters stepped back and let GWM and GJ duke it out i think Gj would defeat GWM but be either drained or severly injured than slaughtered by the 4 other high hands. Thats my interpertation enyways the book says they were mere breaths away from each other martial arts wise.

But at there, we can already see a gap. What GJ did was a difficult task. He need to fend the 4 high class warriors with his bare hands while they all have weapons. One even used poison too. Anywayz, the gap of GLFW that time had already started.He will be able to defeat him after over a thousand stances. At one point, ZBT even knew that he wasn't able too beat the combined people too after he mocked them. So he ran before they can gang up on him.