The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Arching_Hero]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
Everybody.

Ouchh i already edit it.. Anyway, sorry

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Arching_Hero
Ouchh i already edit it.. Anyway, sorry

No problem. We've got to maintain a high standard here, however, or this thread will go to the dogs faster than Hung 7 Gung can eat a chicken leg.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Anonymous


--- And 1Deng ~= GWM ~= YG ~= ZBT ~= HYS.

True, but it's also true that the process of healing Wong Yung's Iron Palm-inflicted injury in LOCH drained a significant portion of 1 Deng's inner power, which was compromised again during ROCH when he took that Iron Palm hit from his student, Chi Yan (i.e. Kau Cheen Yan). Considering all this physical trauma, 1 Deng's inner power might have been gone for good if not for something . . . possibly the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

[saintseiya]

Since all of you are expert in GJ and YG. Did GJ ever create a new technique? I mean if he is the all powerful master why couldn't he comes up with a new technique? Did YG comes up with Sad Palm by him self or just based it off DGQB? I mean how much can you really improve a technique if you just follow instruction? Is only when you improve upon the teachings that you improve the technique.

[saintseiya]

Just to make things clear. I am a fan of both guys. don't let the avatar fools you to think that I YG fans. I think GJ skills might be better then YG. but I like YG's character, he seems to be more human then GJ. GJ just seems to be too good to be human.

[hitman]

There are other statements from other posters which I totally disagree but I won't comment on it or else I will be putting myself in trouble.This only 4 u annnoy:

The "old greats" been all over the place (which fits my definition of "adventuring" and gaining experience), while GJ is "stuck" in XiangYang. ["adventures" with his wife doesnt count --GuoPolo ]

This is not D&D but wuxia.In fact in wuxia,'stuck' is potentially more beneficial in increasing one martial arts for example QQR after 1st Wah Shan Tournament,GJ stuck in Peach Blossom Island,C3F in his meditation room.Training soldier also count as exprience

First, H7G and OYF didnt pass the 16years. Second, YG vs. ZBT proves L/R technique is less useful (which finally end in "innerPower contest."), GWM vs. 1Deng (another "innerPower contest"), YG vs. HYS (another "innerPower contest"), YG vs. GWM (same) except YG's finalStrike move

You don't seem to understand my example.If you take out H7G and AYF name the basic concept is still the same.If 2 fighters who have equal in inner powers and skill,they will let their techniques to decide who is better.So it doesn't matters whether H7G and AYF is dead b4 16 years or Greats had improved a lot after 16 years.As long they are about equal in inner power,technique can be a deciding factor.

YG wouldnt progress in QZ swordplay, a part of JadeMaidenSwordplay, if he didnt. Of course, he also draws his technique from JadeHeartManual innerPower:

I read your quote but it doesn't mean YG practised QZ inner power formula but rather knew the theory only.Furthermore 9 Yin inner power formula are much better but they shared similiar trait.

That was the end of LOCH, now in ROCH and after the 16years, this doesnt work. The "greats" are much better. Refer to my prev-previous msg (regarding innerPower).

Even though the greats are better in ROCH compared to 2nd Wah Shan tournament but it doesn't made my statement wrong.The basic concept is still the same.GJ who is weaker than H7G can fend off H7G's dragon palm with L/R hand while at ROCH ZBT and GWM was about equally strong.If someone who is weaker can do that to a stroinger opponent why can't ZBT able to do that to GWM who is about equal not much stronger?

After this revelation, why didnt YG (or did he?) continue to train 9Yin innerPower if it's all powerful? [One arm can still "circulate"/train the power.] Could it be that DGQB's techniques are "better"? Now why couldnt YG have twice the innerPower accumulation that GJ once enjoyed against GWM?

9 Yin still beat every part of Old Tomb martial arts and the fact YG knew a bit of 9 Yin.So your point that YG chose to train DGKB method is incorrect since YG understood more of DGKB principle than 9 Yin.

Furthermore your latest quotation on YG knowing more 9 Yin is not entirely correct.He only saw the application of bits of 9 Yin not learning the formula of it.

[darkcser]

I thought QZ techniques had this property. Does 9Yin have this property too?

If this makes such a difference why isn't ZBT super powerful then? He's got a good 20 years on GJ in terms of QZ and 9Yin -like you said once he learn them he doesn't need to actively practice them to advance. By your logic ZBT should be all powerful.

As for ZBT forgetting 9Yin... he obviously did not since he was using it in ROCH.

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
You're assuming Gwok Jing's martial arts remained static during all those years, which hasn't been proven and moreover, goes against the fundamental principles of the main source of his power (the 9 Yum Jen Ging). Remember what has been said about the 9 Yum Jen Ging: once its inner power development skill has been mastered, the user's inner power grows constantly and gradually, whether the user actively practices it or not. Such were among the many wonders of 9 Yum Jen Ging.

[Candide]

Originally posted by rabadi
Do you think that when 1D translated the part to GJ and HR, he also *indirectly* learned and benefitted from 9 Yin?

After Yideng translated that part, he told GJ and HR that according to it, he could recover his inner power in 3 months (or was it 6) instead of 3-5 years like before. Then he told GJ and HR to give HQG this translation so that HQG could recover from his injury.

Re: Yang Guo and 9 Yin. YG only learnt a small part of 9 Yin, and it's mostly technique-based. He didn't know any 9 Yin inner power (such as the Sanskrit part (most important) and the Tendon Changing Bone Healing chapter). This is because WCY only wrote down parts in 9 Yin (intepreted by him) that would defeat the Jade Maiden arts.

WCY did not know Sanskrit. When he taught XTG to Yideng, he told Yideng about how at the end of 9Yin Vol1 there was a part written in Sanskrit that he couldn't understand.

Re: ZBT vs QQR in LOCH. The only reason why ZBT couldn't finish QQR off in that chase was because QQR's lightness kungfu was better than his. QQR's nickname was Iron Palms, Running On Water or something like that, which were about his two best techniques: the Iron Palms and the lightness kungfu. If Qiu didn't have exceptional lightness kungfu, he would have been killed by Zhou. Remember that Qiu was so desperate that he was about to commit suicide. Can you imagine a fighter at such level commiting suicide out of desperation because he couldn't fight back ? It must be something pretty serious. Another indicator of this was GJ and his fights with the Greats. Before GJ finished learning the major 9 Yin inner power cultivation chapters, he already could give QQR a run for his money (he said he could take 50 stances, after meeting Yideng it went up to 100 stances), but he couldn't survive 30 stances against any of the Greats (said when he and Quanzhen masters fought HYS).

Re: Icy Bed of the Ancient Tomb. I believe that initially it would give you a temporary boost in inner power but after you get used to it, it won't do anything. Might give you diarrhea even.

Since you have the book, can you/(and any experts) tell me the age of GJ and GWM during the Hero'sFeast. the age of YG and GWM during the QZ palace fight? and the timespan to the beginning of the separation?

33 vs mid 50

21~22 vs ~60

Re: GJ vs OYF at the beginning of ROCH.

It wasn't totally clear who was winning, but GJ was fighting with a disadvantage (he didn't want to injure innocent bystanders) while OYF was going all out, and he recovered much faster from the injury than OYF, I'd say that in a fair fight, GJ would win. Therefore GJ > OYF at the beginning of ROCH.

With this whole X vs Y thing, based on the details in the novels (LOCh and ROCH) I believe that:

- GJ vs the Greats would be similar to WCY vs the Greats. ie he wouldn't be vastly superior to them, but enough to win like how WCY won in the first HS tournament. The Greats would lose to WCY or GJ while openly respecting GJ's or WCY's skills as being superior to theirs. So GJ would be, at the end of ROCH, superior to the Greats in both techniques and inner power. 9 Yin = Win.

- ZBT vs The Greats: It's said in the novel that if Zhou didn't use any 9 Yin kungfu or inner power, he would be equal to the Greats (if he used his L/R techniques that is). Otherwise he would be better than them.

- ZBT vs GJ, end of ROCH: would be a very close fight, but GJ would win because he was much younger.

- Any pair among the surviving Greats, ZBT, GWM, YG, or even QQR at the end of ROCH: if you let them enter a "dead or alive" fight, one will eventually die (funnily enough). Just like how GWM killed QQR. YG killed GWM in the same manner. IMO it's all about luck and mentality when any two of these guys fight each other.

GWM had the worst luck and mentality. He was always afraid of losing. He didn't even dare to fight GJ directly at the Mongolian camp. Perhaps he learnt his lesson after exchanging palms with GJ in the Luk Manor at the beginning of ROCH Remember how he felt severe pain in the chest and couldn't continue after that palm exchange, whereas GJ had no problem at all ? GJ was clearly superior to GWM.

Technique-wise, GJ was always better. In the inner power department, I doubt GWM's Tibetan one could compare with 9 Yin. Talking about mentality, GJ was The Warrior (bit like XF), very confident, calm and decisive. In contrast, GWM was like a thief most of the time, afraid of getting caught (losing).

- YG vs the Greats and ZBT, end of ROCH. Technique-wise, they were the same (see YG's fight against HYS for instance). Their inner power was also roughly the same, but as YG was a lot younger, he would last longer in a fight.

- Now, finally YG vs GJ

Techniques:

The only thing YG had going for him was his Sad Palms, which were mostly based on the Greats' kungfu, which GJ knew already. GJ never had any problem fighting people who had weird techniques, after HQG taught him how to deal with those in LOCH.

GJ knew a lot of things that YG didn't know much about: Many 9 Yin techniques, 72 Kongming Fists, Dragon Palms the 9 Yin version, and the endless combinations of these techniques made possible with the L/R technique. YG was kinda struggling against ZBT with the L/R technique. GJ would make it even harder for him as he knew the Dragon Palms (the rest of his techniques were similar to ZBT's).

-> GJ > YG in this.

Inner power:

This one is a little hard to say. I believe that GJ's 9 Yin power combined with his Quanzhen one (they were theoretically the same, really, with 9 Yin being a better version) would increase dramatically at a much higher rate than the Greats', if what ZBT said about his brother WCY was true. Zhou said that Quanzhen inner power would increase at that kind of rate over the years, and that (this is in LOCH, when he taught GJ martial arts) if WCY was still alive then, he would defeat the 4 Greats in a day (instead of 7 days like in the 1st HS tournament).

Therefore I believe GJ >> the Greats at the end of ROCH.

As stated above, YG was only a bit better than the Greats, and it's mostly about lasting longer since he was in his prime while the Greats were at the wrong end of the slope (in their 90s).

-> GJ > YG.

But all of these comparisons in martial arts equal jack in my book. What really counts here is who's better as a person. YG never really became anything significantly better than an immature, selfish and arrogant little shit he was from the beginning of ROCH, whose only goal in life was to please his chick. He would only appeal to bored teenagers who think that being rebelious and whinging about authority is cool.

GJ, on the other hand, was a wise, calm and decisive person who always had clear goals in life, and was determined to achieve those goals. He was honest, loyal and modest, and respected everyone. He was also a hero who "worried about things before the people, and enjoyed his happiness after the people". His martial arts, no matter how good they were, were constantly put to good use of the people. He was worthy of every fortune that came his way.

What did YG have to compare with that ? Nothing. What use did YG have for all that martial arts stuff ? Not much. He would be better off spending his whole life in that cave with XLN (ie having no adventure in ROCH at all). YG, for the most parts in ROCH, was a waste of space, annoying and teasing people, including so many silly girls that happened to fall for him.

Still, I'm glad that JY created a character like YG. He (JY) has a great variety of characters. This is what makes me enjoy his novels so much.

I should stop here and go to bed ^_^

P.S: Ken, Moin, do you think that I've achieved FaQ's level of long posts yet ? ^_^

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by saintseiya
Since all of you are expert in GJ and YG. Did GJ ever create a new technique? I mean if he is the all powerful master why couldn't he comes up with a new technique? Did YG comes up with Sad Palm by him self or just based it off DGQB? I mean how much can you really improve a technique if you just follow instruction? Is only when you improve upon the teachings that you improve the technique.

Gwok Jing was not as imaginative a person as Yeung Gor, but although Gwok Jing didn't create a complete new system like Sad Palms, it cannot be said that Gwok Jing was incapable of inventing new martial arts methods. During LOCH, a young Gwok Jing created three new moves for the Hong Lung 18 Palms to defeat Au Yeung Hak (North Beggar Hung 7 Gung had only taught Gwok Jing fifteen moves at the time, so Gwok Jing was forced to improvise three final moves to win). Gwok Jing also created the idea to make his Hong Lung 18 Palms silent to defeat Mui Chiu Fung when he was not yet powerful enough to take her head on. Gwok Jing figured out a way to use the Cheun Jen Sect's Big Dipper 7 Stars Formation by himself (although the skill was meant for use by seven people). Gwok Jing was also able to adapt the Left/Right Hand Technique so that it would enhance his inner power training as well as his techniques (this was an angle that Chow Bak Tung hadn't even considered). Finally, Gwok Jing was able to incorporate the principles of the 9 Yum Jen Ging into the Hong Lung 18 Palms, making the palms even better than the way Hung 7 Gung had used them.

All in all, Gwok Jing demonstrated plenty of inventiveness with martial arts himself.

Most importantly, being able to invent new martial arts is not necessarily an indicator that one will come out ahead in fights. Kiu Fung never invented a single martial arts skill, but you can count the number of people who can defeat him in a fight on the fingers of one hand.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Candide

P.S: Ken, Moin, do you think that I've achieved FaQ's level of long posts yet ? ^_^

Not even close.

[Condor83]

Originally posted by Anonymous
--- Thx c83. Actually, testament of how great 9Yin "was in LOCH." [not belittling you, just "(JamesBond) standard procedure" counter-argument. ] It's significant but minor because it delves too far into the past. Besides, ZBT "ties" with YG in ROCH. However, can you summarize how ZBT at the end of ROCH says that GJ is "better" than him? especially the events the leads up to his statement.

Actually I'm looking for that statement myself, but I'm unsure where it is.. I'll find out though. I went through the chapter where the new Greats are named at Wah San. However I did not find where ZBT says GJ is better.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Candide
P.S: Ken, Moin, do you think that I've achieved FaQ's level of long posts yet ? ^_^

Nice try, but you are still using something that could conceivably lead to a long post.

[Candide]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
During LOCH, a young Gwok Jing created three new moves for the Hong Lung 18 Palms to defeat Au Yeung Hak (North Beggar Hung 7 Gung had only taught Gwok Jing fifteen moves at the time, so Gwok Jing was forced to improvise three final moves to win). Gwok Jing also created the idea to make his Hong Lung 18 Palms silent to defeat Mui Chiu Fung when he was not yet powerful enough to take her head on. Gwok Jing figured out a way to use the Cheun Jen Sect's Big Dipper 7 Stars Formation by himself (although the skill was meant for use by seven people). Gwok Jing was also able to adapt the Left/Right Hand Technique so that it would enhance his inner power training as well as his techniques (this was an angle that Chow Bak Tung hadn't even considered). Finally, Gwok Jing was able to incorporate the principles of the 9 Yum Jen Ging into the Hong Lung 18 Palms, making the palms even better than the way Hung 7 Gung had used them.

A few additions:

- He could fake Yiyang zhi ^_^

- He saw 12 ivies on Hua Shan and thought that he could create a new set of palms based on their shapes and 9 Yin principles, but since he was in the "I don't want to fight and kill people" mood, he never proceeded with that plan.

[Arching_Hero]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
During LOCH, a young Gwok Jing created three new moves for the Hong Lung 18 Palms to defeat Au Yeung Hak (North Beggar Hung 7 Gung had only taught Gwok Jing fifteen moves at the time, so Gwok Jing was forced to improvise three final moves to win).

Oh, so the last three moves of HL18Z was not teach by H7G??
Did Guo Jing learned Peach Blossom Island kungfu??

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Arching_Hero
Oh, so the last three moves of HL18Z was not teach by H7G??

At the time of that fight with Au Yeung Hak, no. A little later, Hung 7 Gung did finish teaching Gwok Jing the proper final three moves of the Hong Lung 18 Palms, but the three improvised palms that Gwok Jing used in the fight were good enough for him to defeat Au Yeung Hak.

Gwok Jing was trained by his father-in-law East Heretic Wong Yerk See in the Peach Blossom Island techniques during the thirteen years between LOCH and ROCH. There was at least one occassion in ROCH (I think it was during Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba's attack on the Chung Yeung Temple when Gwok Jing brought young Yeung Gor to the temple for training) when Gwok Jing used the Mighty Finger Snap.

[Candide]

He used that when he fought the 4 disciples of Yideng. He used it again in ROCH but it was more like his own intepretation of the Mighty Finger Flick than the real one ^_^ It had plenty of power, but wasn't as skillful as HYS's.

Edit: You're not on ICQ, Ken, so let me guess, you're procrastinating at work ? hehehe

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Candide
Edit: You're not on ICQ, Ken, so let me guess, you're procrastinating at work ? heehe

Yep. I soooo love downtime.

[Arching_Hero]

Originally posted by Candide
He used that when he fought the 4 disciples of Yideng. He used it again in ROCH but it was more like his own intepretation of the Mighty Finger Flick than the real one ^_^ It had plenty of power, but wasn't as skillful as HYS's.

Edit: You're not on ICQ, Ken, so let me guess, you're procrastinating at work ? hehehe

He use wat?? fake 1YZ??

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Arching_Hero
He use wat?? fake 1YZ??

Yes. Late in LOCH, when West Poison Au Yeung Fung had taken him prisoner near Samarkand, Gwok Jing faked 1 Yeung Finger Technique (he knew what it looked like because he had seen South Emperor 1 Deng the Monk and his disciples using it, but had no idea about how to generate the correct inner power to *really* use it) to scare Au Yeung Fung. Au Yeung Fung was terrified of 1 Yeung Finger Technique combined with Sin Teen Gung because this was the one martial arts combination that could surely defeat his Ha Mo Gung.

[Candide]

What does 1YZ have to do with HYS's technique ?

Btw Ken you gave the irrelevant answer ^_^ GJ did use the fake 1YZ but it has nothing to do with my previous post.