The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Ken Cheng]

That's why I wanted you to define the scope of this debate. The result depends very much on that.

OK, well, how about this simple one:

Inner Power: approximately equal in quantity; Gwok Jing's has greater refinement (whatever that means)

Endurance/Durability: approximately equal (nothing to show that one has more than the other here)

Lightness Skill/Speed: Yeung Gor (Ancient Tomb specialty)

Technique (unarmed): approximately equal (per Wong Yerk See's assessment, which I trust).

Technique (armed): depends on the weapons in question

Intelligence: Obviously Yeung Gor, but the funny thing is I don't remember Gwok Jing ever losing a fight because he was outwitted, and he's fought some fairly smart people.

Mental Affinity/Toughness: Close to even again, but Yeung Gor's emotionality could potentially trip him up here. Still, if intelligence isn't a big factor against Gwok Jing, this doesn't have to be a big factor against Yeung Gor.


Overall, I find it pretty even again. The only area that Yeung Gor has a clear advantage is lightness skills. Maybe he could swing that to his advantage.

[Ken Cheng]

Dugu Qiubai supposedly conquered wulin with his swordmanship. It'll be odd to consider him an inferior fighter just because he uses a weapon.

The same Dook Goo Kau Bai, however, finally reached his peak when he mastered the art of fighting without a sword.

My view of wuxia is very influenced by that of my father, who read the novels when he was a teenager and introduced me to the world of wuxia years ago through the TVB adaptations back in the 1980s. One of the ideas that he taught me is that superior martial artists don't need to rely on weapons, and the mark of a great martial artist was one who could dominate without weapons (i.e. Dook Goo Kau Bai's "No Sword Defeats Sword.") That was probably the point of Jin Yong's creating the "No Sword" Stage for Dook Goo Kau Bai, and Yeung Gor abandoning the Heavy Iron Sword in favor of the Sad Palms. If Heavy Iron Sword Technique were better than Sad Palms, Yeung Gor would not have given it up in favor of Sad Palms.

[Ken Cheng]

batmankiller: Let's not pull, the "X is a fan of GJ/YG, so he's just twisting everything to make his hero win" card, all right? I'll be the first to admit that I used to pull this card on other debaters too, but I've stopped because it's a cheap shot discussion technique. If I can stop using it as an argument against Yeung Gor supporters, you can stop using it against Gwok Jing advocates.

[MrIllusion]

The same Dook Goo Kau Bai, however, finally reached his peak when he mastered the art of fighting without a sword.

That may true only to Dugu Qiubai himself, who assessed his own skills, or to others who knew him. But to the many opponents that he fought, they only saw him as a swordsman, because he only perfected his art upon retirement.

My point is that if using weaponry is considered an unfair advantage in wulin, then people like Dugu Qiubai, Xiao Long Nu, Flying Fox and all the members of the 5 Mountain Sword Sects, essentially people who used weaponry as their de facto martial arts, would be considered as 'cheating'.

Like Icy said, you have to lay down the scope of the comparison.

1) fight to the death - Yang Guo vs Golden Wheel Monk
2) casual dueling - Yang Guo vs Zhou Botong in the 100 Flower Valley
3) Martial Arts theory - Northern Beggar vs Western Venom before their deaths
4) By Proxy - seeing who produces the best students (Northern Beggars student vs Western Venom's nephew)
5) By Proxy - how well one can turn the tide by giving hints (Wang Yuyan exposing opponent's weaknesses, or Yang Guo helping the young Zhang Sanfeng)
6) Battle of Qing Gong - Xiao Long Nu vs Iron Palms during the sprinting scene
7) Battle of Wai Gong (external forms), without internal energy - Guo Jing vs Western Venom / Ouyang Ke versus Northern Beggar

In all these situations, the unfair advantage brought about by weapons is only unacceptable in 2) and 7).

[IcyFox]

"X is a fan of GJ/YG, so he's just twisting everything to make his hero win"

That's what I'm actually doing.

If I can stop using it as an argument against Yeung Gor supporters, you can stop using it against Gwok Jing advocates.

That suits me. I have an unfair advantage against you now. Thanks.

[ltcuoi]

Yang Guo can defeat Guo Jing.

[IcyFox]

I know I don't have to do this... but allow me to illustrate why my belief that the "ends justify the means" is valid in this topic. Pardon my feeble attempt.


Now let us suppose that a martial arts exponent learnt a skill or a sword technique etc. He has then earned his right to use the skill or whatever he has learnt in combat. And he would use whatever that's necessary to defeat his opponent, which in most cases mean performing to his best.

If his opponent loses to his best performance (whether armed or unarmed), then that's it. He wins. If the opponent doesn't want to use a weapon, then his loss would be the result of his decision.

However, even if the 2 guys agree beforehand to fight unarmed, the "ends (still) justify the means". Why? Because the "ends" here refers to the result of the unarmed match. And the "means" specify fighting without weapons explicitly. The "means" and the "ends" are still complimentary.


On the other hand... If (in this case) we try to be "fair" by restricting YG and GJ to unarmed combat, citing the reason -> "If GJ loses, did YG win or did the sword win?", we would face another problem resulting from this:

If YG (unarmed) loses, did GJ win, or did XL18Z win, or did 9Yin win, or did the debater win? Hmmm...

[Bangs]

Really guys we should just stop this YG vs GJ debate. They have their own strengths and weaknesses, if they were to fight a no holds barred battle they probably have equal chances of winning. And GJ cannot learn HIS on his own, only YG is smart enough to do it, unless if HR helps him learn it.

[Bangs]

On the other hand... If (in this case) we try to be "fair" by restricting YG and GJ to unarmed combat, citing the reason -> "If GJ loses, did YG win or did the sword win?", we would face another problem resulting from this:

If YG (unarmed) loses, did GJ win, or did XL18Z win, or did 9Yin win, or did the debater win? Hmmm...

That's why I said its not the sword that wins a battle, its the skill of the one wielding it. The HIS is an exceptional sword, YG cannot perform HIS techniques without it but it doesn't mean he has to rely on it to win against GJ.

[IcyFox]

Really guys we should just stop this YG vs GJ debate.

For what purpose? The purpose of this debate is to evaluate the probable result of the theoritical YG vs. GJ match through debating. The result can either be a Win, Lose or Draw.

They have their own strengths and weaknesses, if they were to fight a no holds barred battle they probably have equal chances of winning. And GJ cannot learn HIS on his own, only YG is smart enough to do it, unless if HR helps him learn it.

I see you have opted for "Draw". Thanks for contributing to this debate.

[IcyFox]

That's why I said its not the sword that wins a battle, its the skill of the one wielding it. The HIS is an exceptional sword, YG cannot perform HIS techniques without it but it doesn't mean he has to rely on it to win against GJ.

Yup. But gentlemen (and ladies too), what I'm merely doing is to secure a victory for YG.

[batmankiller]

If I can stop using it as an argument against Yeung Gor supporters, you can stop using it against Gwok Jing advocates.

Umm I'm sure many people have said that oh YG will lose due to the arm disadvantage.. nothing can replace the arm blah blah.. and I've accepted this.. so why can't you accept the fact YG's HIS with palms would give YG the clear advantage, and stop making lousy excuse as to why he can't use it or how it makes him look non-great, weak or whatever un-logical argument you've been trying to say for the last 3 pages.

We've already stated that trying to disqualify YG's rights of using HIS is absolutely redundant and if it were it real duel where both YG and GJ had every weapon and thing for them, and they could use whatever they know how to.. then I'm pretty sure it's YG's rights to use HIS and take advantage of it.

[Ken Cheng]

Really guys we should just stop this YG vs GJ debate.

It'll stop when people lose interest in it. Considering that this thread has gained over fifty posts within the past seventy-two hours, that doesn't seem likely.

[Ken Cheng]

Umm I'm sure many people have said that oh YG will lose due to the arm disadvantage.. nothing can replace the arm blah blah.. and I've accepted this.. so why can't you accept the fact YG's HIS with palms would give YG the clear advantage, and stop making lousy excuse as to why he can't use it or how it makes him look non-great, weak or whatever un-logical argument you've been trying to say for the last 3 pages.

We've already stated that trying to disqualify YG's rights of using HIS is absolutely redundant and if it were it real duel where both YG and GJ had every weapon and thing for them, and they could use whatever they know how to.. then I'm pretty sure it's YG's rights to use HIS and take advantage of it.

I'm not talking about any of this, batmankiller. It's not about Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor anymore: it's about how we treat our fellow members in this debate or any debate.

We all need to stop playing "mindreader" and telling other people, "You're just doing this because...", or "You say this only because you're a fan of..." It's terribly insulting and presumptuous to tell people what they're thinking, and one doesn't need to resort to it to debate effectively. I don't do this (at least not anymore) to other members here; neither should you.

Just look at your language in this post, bold items highlighted for emphasis:

Ok Ken Cheung you've proved the fact taht you don't like YG.. or either that is you really like to debate over a irrelevant argument. YG with HIS vs. all the other greats.. with the HIS.. YG has advantage because he trained with it, so now we're going to dis-credit him for that? honestly.. that's like saying GJ is better off with Dog beating stick than YG becuz he's been trained with it more and has more experience withit. Ok LR duel/H18Z/dog beating stick vs. YG with sad palmz and HIS..who wins?

Just because YG has the sword and that gives him an advantage doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to win or any of the points you've tried to state in the last pages. That's like saying. no fair YG invented Sad Palms.. if he were to learn H18DP in one day and face GJ, GJ would win. In the martial world everything can be used.. and YG with HIS+SP > GJ with H18Z and dog beating stick.. ok stop trying to claim the point that YG would only win because he has the sword.. deal with it.. it's a weapon .. that he found and owns it.

Being a supporter and just trying to continue and argument where a conclusion has already been reached is just stupid. Especially when you try to put everything in GJ's favor and when something good is actually stated for YG you actually dis-credit with the "oh too powerful shit.Honestly, I'm neutral I just go with the facts and yea..

You've characterized my opinion as "stupid" and as another, more vulgar word. Do I do this to your opinions when I disagree with you?

I disagree with your, IcyFox's and Mr. Illusion's opinion on this matter, but I have not and would not refer to any of your arguments as "stupid" or anything of that nature. It's a different opinion from mine, and I don't agree with it, but I don't dismiss it as garbage. Whatever happened to respecting other people's opinions even if you don't agree with them?

And then, you presume to order me to

stop making lousy excuse

It doesn't matter how much you disagree with me. It doesn't entitle you to be rude, insulting, and turn this discussion into a personal one. Like I always tell people: discuss the *subject* and not your fellow members. It's not so hard to do.

[Bangs]

I'm not talking about any of this, batmankiller. It's not about Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor anymore: it's about how we treat our fellow members in this debate or any debate.

We all need to stop playing "mindreader" and telling other people, "You're just doing this because...", or "You say this only because you're a fan of..." It's terribly insulting and presumptuous to tell people what they're thinking, and one doesn't need to resort to it to debate effectively. I don't do this (at least not anymore) to other members here; neither should you.

Just look at your language in this post, bold items highlighted for emphasis:



You've characterized my opinion as "stupid" and as another, more vulgar word. Do I do this to your opinions when I disagree with you?

I disagree with your, IcyFox's and Mr. Illusion's opinion on this matter, but I have not and would not refer to any of your arguments as "stupid" or anything of that nature. It's a different opinion from mine, and I don't agree with it, but I don't dismiss it as garbage. Whatever happened to respecting other people's opinions even if you don't agree with them?

And then, you presume to order me to

It doesn't matter how much you disagree with me. It doesn't entitle you to be rude, insulting, and turn this discussion into a personal one. Like I always tell people: discuss the *subject* and not your fellow members. It's not so hard to do.

This is exactly the reason why this debate should not be pursued any longer. Many participants in this debate are not careful with words and ends up showing disrespect to something they don't agree with. The question is, is it really worth it? Do we have to bash each other time and again just so we can prove that our favorite character is better than another? There can never be a clear winner to this debate, most people here are biased to one side, its useless to try to change one's opinion when in fact his/her mind is all made up. And when all is said and done, let's say one side won over the other, will it make people feel better? The answer is NO. A decade later, I'm sure this debate is still not settled. I'll requote my post by then just to prove my point, that is if I remember to do so.

[CC]

The debates are still useful to help point out certain facts from the novels or just to see how others interpret the words in the book.

The debaters should just refrain from taking things personally or let stupid comments slide.

I suppose for every stubborn loudmouth you are 'debating' with, there are several other 'silent' readers who might be actually digesting the more cogent arguments.

[batmankiller]

Ok replace stupid with "irrelevant" and replace "shit" with stuff.. we disagree with you but we give you valid reasons , points and reasonable logic as to why your argument does not make sense and doesn't really concur with the topic sentence being shown. No one's playing mind reader, but the fact that you keep pressing the point and the fact where we've shown you that that point is non-reasonable, you still persist to say the same thing even though we've already proven your argument is not reasonable for the debate we're having... and I did not judge your opinion I judged your action..of you setting an argument without any facts or logic and with just plain opinions and beliefs and the facts that you've used to try and support your argument in fact weakens your stand point. I don't mind debates where facts and logic is being shown to incorporate into your standpoint, but all you're doing is showing us the facts and saying how you think it's unfair, when this is clearly about the charcteristics and abilities that the author has chosen to give them, and taking these abilities away just makes this debate even more useless and time-consuming

[Bangs]

Ok replace stupid with "irrelevant" and replace "shit" with stuff.. we disagree with you but we give you valid reasons , points and reasonable logic as to why your argument does not make sense and doesn't really concur with the topic sentence being shown. No one's playing mind reader, but the fact that you keep pressing the point and the fact where we've shown you that that point is non-reasonable, you still persist to say the same thing even though we've already proven your argument is not reasonable for the debate we're having... and I did not judge your opinion I judged your action..of you setting an argument without any facts or logic and with just plain opinions and beliefs and the facts that you've used to try and support your argument in fact weakens your stand point. I don't mind debates where facts and logic is being shown to incorporate into your standpoint, but all you're doing is showing us the facts and saying how you think it's unfair, when this is clearly about the charcteristics and abilities that the author has chosen to give them, and taking these abilities away just makes this debate even more useless and time-consuming

Let's say Ken is wrong in his opinion, does it give you the right to insult him with your words? Does being right give you power over another? BTW, I'm not saying Ken is wrong and you are right, I'm just trying to make a point. I'm also YG's supporter but I will not overlook the fact that you were rude in your posts.

[batmankiller]

First of all no where in in that statement did I specifically state any names
"Being a supporter and just trying to continue and argument where a conclusion has already been reached is just stupid. Especially when you try to put everything in GJ's favor and when something good is actually stated for YG you actually dis-credit with the "oh too powerful shit.Honestly, I'm neutral I just go with the facts and yea.."

This was a general statement as to how some GJ supporters state their arguments, as at the end I stated im neutral and just go with the facts. The last paragraph was just a summary of some sort. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstandment but no where in that post were my intention to attack/insult you specifically or you in general, I was just attacking your claim and making a point of how some GJ supporters present their argument.

And when I said stop making lousy excuses I meant that as in coming up with an argument with no facts to actually support your claim and wasting pages of opinions, a debate is a discussion where you state a claim and evidence is given, no where in your last 2 pages of posts except your comparison in result battles has it shown evidence that can be used to support your claim.

[IcyFox]

I observe that Posts #1852, #1853, #1854, #1855, #1856, #1857, #1858 and #1859 did not explicitly state a proposed solution to the debate topic in the form of a "Win", "Lose" or "Draw", nor did any of the above posts submit propositions either empirical or logical to imply any forms of the possible solutions ("Win", "Lose" or "Draw") above.

Consequentially, due to the scope of this topic as discussed currently (stated in Posts #1841, #1844), the above-mentioned posts shall be disregarded from the debate. Thanks for your participation above, but the debate shall resume from Post #1849. Ladies and gentlemen, please proceed.