The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[ltcuoi]

Two-armed Yeung Gor would not have encountered the circumstances that enabled him to drastically improve his martial arts...at least not in the way he did. Keeping the arm means no Heavy Iron Sword, no snake organs, and no wave training. In what direction would Yeung Gor's martial arts have grown in that case? Nobody knows, but it wouldn't have been the same as it did...and who's to say it would have been better the other way?

Jin Yong could have written Yang Guo with two arms encountering the same circumstances that enabled him to improve his martial arts.

No, but you haven't proven that Yeung Gor is better than Gwok Jing either. All you've done is loudly proclaim your opinion, which is just that.

Did I ever said I have prove that Yang Guor was better than Gwok Jing? No! All I said was that Yang Guor and Gwok Jing would probably fight to a draw and that Yang Guor would be the winner because he had one arm.

Once again, one arm equal win.

On whose authority are you "ending" the debate, and on what authority do you claim that "one arm equal [sic] win?"

It isn't true just because you say it is, you know?

If I fought you to a draw with one arm, are you winning or am I winning? Think about it.

[ltcuoi]

That's more a matter of perception than a matter of actuality.

The actuality is that if Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were to fight, the final outcome cannot be certain. To me, it's immaterial that it's more "glorious" for Yeung Gor because he has only one arm. We're not really comparing who's more glorious here; we're comparing who might win the fight...one arm, two arms, or two-hundred arms.

You said in your earlier post that it's not fair if Yang Guor win a fight with Iron Sword. You said that if Yang Guor were to win, it's the sword that won the fight. So now why are you saying things like one arm, two arms, or two-hundred arms.

[batmankiller]

In my opinion we can't really talk about the arm theory in the debate as it is so controversal.. and this would be an entirely new debate.. although we can't deny the fact that yang guo with two arms is better than a yang guo with one.. I mean sad palms and a HIS strike.

[Ken Cheng]

You said in your earlier post that it's not fair if Yang Guor win a fight with Iron Sword. You said that if Yang Guor were to win, it's the sword that won the fight. So now why are you saying things like one arm, two arms, or two-hundred arms.

Arms are a part of a person's body. People are born with arms (although they might lose them in fights or accidents). Nobody is *born* with a weapon, especially not a superweapon such as the Heavy Iron Sword.

[Ken Cheng]

In my opinion we can't really talk about the arm theory in the debate as it is so controversal.. and this would be an entirely new debate.. although we can't deny the fact that yang guo with two arms is better than a yang guo with one.. I mean sad palms and a HIS strike.

Yeung Gor doesn't know the Left/Right Hand Technique. To use one, he'd have to momentarily stop using the other.

[Ken Cheng]

Jin Yong could have written Yang Guo with two arms encountering the same circumstances that enabled him to improve his martial arts.

But Jin Yong didn't. Jin Yong also could have written that Gwok Jing learned Bak Ming Sun Gung from a cave where Hui Juk left it behind and then absorbed the inner power of four Greats, but it didn't happen.

Let's stick to what we have and what we know.

Did I ever said I have prove that Yang Guor was better than Gwok Jing?

Not in so many words, but yes, you did. If not, what's all this "YG one arm = win" stuff all about?

No! All I said was that Yang Guor and Gwok Jing would probably fight to a draw and that Yang Guor would be the winner because he had one arm.

If you want to claim some kind of moral victory for Yeung Gor because he had only one arm, be my guest, but that's not the way I judge the results of fights. A win occurs when one fighter overcomes the other.

Once again, one arm equal win.

You may repeat that as many times as you like; I won't find it any more persuasive for the redundancy.

If I fought you to a draw with one arm, are you winning or am I winning? Think about it.

A draw is a draw is a draw. All the arm thing counts for is a moral victory, which isn't the same thing as an actual victory.

[Whsie]

If you beat up someone with one arm, do you consider yourself a winner?

Not convincing. How do you "beat up" GJ when you're not stronger than him? This sounds logically wrong.
To me, having one arm is to YG's disadvantage since GJ can launch 2 completly serparate set of arts on YG.
Until you can prove why having one arm is > than 2 arms, you won't be convincing Ken or me (and likely the rest of the forum) because this is an argument that has never been mentioned before in this 3 years+, 95 page thread. If having one arm really is as what you claim, then I'm sure someone such as Lev or Athena in the past would have mentioned it.

[MrIllusion]

A draw is a draw is a draw. All the arm thing counts for is a moral victory, which isn't the same thing as an actual victory.

This sums up the gist of the argument in the last few posts. Some will argue that a technical victory is as valid as an actual victory.

For this reason we tend to give characters like Yang Guo, Ke Zhen E, Duan Yanqing more slack as they not only have to overcome their opponent, but their own disability as well.

[ltcuoi]

A draw is a draw is a draw. All the arm thing counts for is a moral victory, which isn't the same thing as an actual victory.

That's the whole point I am trying to get across to you: that Yang Guo wins the moral victory since he has one arm. So one arm equal a moral win. Then again, a draw is a draw so a win is a win even if it's a moral win.

You, as a Guo Jing supporter, mentioned that Guo Jing and Yang Guo are more or less equal in fighting, didn't you? However, even if they are more or less equal in fighting, Yang Guo looks more superior than Guo Jing because he has one arm.

[Ken Cheng]

That's the whole point I am trying to get across to you: that Yang Guo wins the moral victory since he has one arm. So one arm equal a moral win. Then again, a draw is a draw so a win is a win even if it's a moral win.

You, as a Guo Jing supporter, mentioned that Guo Jing and Yang Guo are more or less equal in fighting, didn't you? However, even if they are more or less equal in fighting, Yang Guo looks more superior than Guo Jing because he has one arm.

I don't look at it that way. I look at the actual results. If we take every extenuating circumstance for both fighters, it won't be long before we lose sight of what we're comparing (i.e. how they'd do against each other in a direct fight). Gwok Jing was not nearly as clever as Yeung Gor. Should Gwok Jing's relative lack of intelligence make his ability to match Yeung Gor more glorious because he's able to handle an opponent far smarter than he is? I wouldn't say so.

[JusTea242]

Nope,neither has the advantage in this fight. Guo Jing is dumb out of his skull and yang Guo Lost a arm,so the odds are equal.

[MrIllusion]

I don't look at it that way. I look at the actual results. If we take every extenuating circumstance for both fighters, it won't be long before we lose sight of what we're comparing (i.e. how they'd do against each other in a direct fight). Gwok Jing was not nearly as clever as Yeung Gor. Should Gwok Jing's relative lack of intelligence make his ability to match Yeung Gor more glorious because he's able to handle an opponent far smarter than he is? I wouldn't say so.

If we are to look at actual results then we need to lay the basic premise of the fight.

Is it a fight to the death (win by any means necessary)?
Is it a duel (no weapons allowed, no 'underhand tactics' like 'look behind you!')
Is it an arena or small enclosed space (close quarter combat)?
Is it a large area where natural terrain can be used as leverage (Eastern Devil's fengshui thingy vs Yue Fei's war manual)?

Just to sidetrack, comparing Guo Jing's lack of intellect to a physical disability isn't exactly fair. Not when we are talking about a physical activity like martial arts.

If it was a game of chess or weiqi, then Guo Jing's lack of intellect would be considered a handicap. If he could draw with a more intelligent player like YG, then I would consider it a victory.

In martial arts (as far as JY's novels go), you can make up for lack of natural flair with hard work, which is the key to GJ's success. But you can't grow back an extra arm, or repair Xie Xun or Ke Zhen E's blindness...

[Ken Cheng]

Is it a fight to the death (win by any means necessary)?

Considering who the two combatants are and their relationship with each other, no.

Is it a duel (no weapons allowed, no 'underhand tactics' like 'look behind you!')

Yes, those conditions should apply.

Is it an arena or small enclosed space (close quarter combat)?

Per tradition, let's make it the summit of Mt. Hua.

Is it a large area where natural terrain can be used as leverage (Eastern Devil's fengshui thingy vs Yue Fei's war manual)?

See previous response.

Just to sidetrack, comparing Guo Jing's lack of intellect to a physical disability isn't exactly fair. Not when we are talking about a physical activity like martial arts.

But we also know that in wuxia-style martial arts confrontations, wits matter as much as physical prowess. How many times has a wuxia character triumphed against a physically superior opponent by outwitting him/her? The importance of wits is magnified when the two opponents are physically very evenly matched.

[MrIllusion]

But we also know that in wuxia-style martial arts confrontations, wits matter as much as physical prowess. How many times has a wuxia character triumphed against a physically superior opponent by outwitting him/her? The importance of wits is magnified when the two opponents are physically very evenly matched.

Which is why a few of us mentioned that the scope is important. Since you are using a scenario that is similar to Mt Hua Summit, then the idea of superior wit is no longer relevant.

Just like when YG fought Zhou Botong or when Northern Beggar fought Western Poison, both YG and H7G could rely on their opponents naivete or derangement, but chose not to, as it was a fair duel.

However the lack of an extremity IS a handicap in this scenario. Just like advanced age or blindness.

Personally, I would say that a draw is very likely. When YG fought ZBT at the valley, he mentioned that when top exponents fight, it would inevitably boil down to a contest of internl energy, such that both parties would invariably result in internal injuries, as was the case with the final fight between Northern Beggar and Western Poison.

Since you have ruled out a death-match, it is unlikely that we will find one decisive victor, especially since ZBT and GJ are comparable in skill.

[Ken Cheng]

Since you have ruled out a death-match, it is unlikely that we will find one decisive victor, especially since ZBT and GJ are comparable in skill.

Comparable, but Gwok Jing as of the end of ROCH has three distinct advantages over Chow Bak Tung:

1. relative youth

2. the Sanskrit portion of the 9 Yum Jen Ging, which is the heart of the manual's inner power training

3. the Hong Lung 18 Palms

[MrIllusion]

Comparable, but Gwok Jing as of the end of ROCH has three distinct advantages over Chow Bak Tung:

1. relative youth

2. the Sanskrit portion of the 9 Yum Jen Ging, which is the heart of the manual's inner power training

3. the Hong Lung 18 Palms

1. Wasn't it stated somewhere that ZBT's actually didn't suffer from the debilitative effects of old age like his peers? I can't remember if it was just a passing remark, or if it was a serious assessment on his vitality. Or just something from tv adaptations.

2. Seems like GJ is superior is this aspect. Although I have no idea how deep ZBT's internal training is.

3. Since YG's Melancholic Palms has been touted as a close rival to HL18Z, then these two pretty much nullify each other. So while GJ may have an advantage against ZBT's Vacant Fists, it might not be that much of an advantage against YG's Emo Palms. The variable then would be YG's mood on the day of the match.

[big master]

gou jing coz yang guo only got better with the help of his eagle compadre guo jing is a natural fighter...qiao feng wud be a more challenging match for him

[Ken Cheng]

1. Wasn't it stated somewhere that ZBT's actually didn't suffer from the debilitative effects of old age like his peers? I can't remember if it was just a passing remark, or if it was a serious assessment on his vitality. Or just something from tv adaptations.

Apparently, as his fight with Yeung Gor drew on, Chow Bak Tung began to be put at a disadvantage due to his age-induced relative lack of stamina. Chow Bak Tung was extremely energetic for a man in his nineties, but couldn't hope to match the stamina of a man in his mid-thirties. Although Chow Bak Tung wasn't losing to Yeung Gor in technique, Chow's lack of stamina compared to Yeung was beginning to show.

[MrIllusion]

Apparently, as his fight with Yeung Gor drew on, Chow Bak Tung began to be put at a disadvantage due to his age-induced relative lack of stamina. Chow Bak Tung was an extremely energetic for a man in his nineties, but couldn't hope to match the stamina of a man in his mid-thirties. Although Chow Bak Tung wasn't losing to Yeung Gor in technique, Chow's lack of stamina compared to Yeung was beginning to show.

Ahh ok. I guess he was just young at heart then.

[IcyFox]

I'm getting really lazy; I too lazy to reply to the points since my last post.

But, I'm kinda bored, so can someone kindly issue me a challenge to debate any sub-topics relevant to this thread?

Maybe this could draw out the guy who can win me in debating.