The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[KChill]

GJ and YG, basically fought the same group of Mongolians at two separate times, GJ in the Mongolian camp and YG at Quanzen....am I correct? Comparing these two fights, it SEEMS as if YG -- once he learned the heavy sword technique-- was superior to GJ in skills.

[Whsie]

those were in different situations.
GJ's position was tougher in the fact that
1) all 4 four fought GJ at the SAME TIME
2) less room to operate because he was surrounded by a giant Mongolian Army
3) he had to worry and take note of YG

The main difference is point 1
YG's situation was that he fought all 4 of these fighter SEPERATELY. YG knew that if all of 4 them came at the same time, he would have clearly lost(YG said this to himself after defeating the 4 seperately). Also, Ni Mou Xin was also handicapped, so there is a major difference. It was first NiMouXin defeated. Then Xiao Xianzhi went and got defeated and then finally the other 2 separetly.
If GJ had fought each of these 4 separetly, GJ most likely would have done even better.

[batmankiller]

Yea I remember that part.. good point whsie.. hmm maybe YG would be able to go for a suicide against all 4 and have a chance.. but he was worried about XLN.. and they could've held her captive..

[Ken Cheng]

Yea I remember that part.. good point whsie.. hmm maybe YG would be able to go for a suicide against all 4 and have a chance.. but he was worried about XLN.. and they could've held her captive..

Yeung Gor wasn't interested in dying at that point. At that point in his life, he was up against a desperate desire to survive and rescue Little Dragon Girl. It would have been an inconvenient time for dying, to say the least.

I think he understood that his sudden spurt in martial arts development (it had only been a month or so since the Golden Wheel Monk and the other Mongol mercenaries had last seen him, and when they did last see him, he hadn't been nearly as powerful) and the power of the Heavy Iron Sword would adequately unnerve his enemies that if he could put up a strong showing against them one-on-one, he wouldn't need to engage all four of them simultaneously like Gwok Jing did. His gamble paid off, although he did need a little Honey Bee Needle assist from Little Dragon Girl against the Golden Wheel Monk.

[Snafu3721]

GJ still had a tougher situation when compared with YG when dealing with the Mongol warriors.

GJ was fighting all the mogol mercenaries at once without the aid of any weaponary. (As someone previously mentioned, even ZBT wouldn't catch GWM's wheels with his bare hand). YG had the HIS.

GJ also had to worry about protecting YG, who at the time was not making things easy for his Uncle Guo by repeatedly putting himself in a situation that would severely impair GJ's fight.

[batmankiller]

Yea I'll give you that YG had only 1v1 while GJ had to face 4v1
But both YG and GJ had to protect someone so I won't give you that

[Ken Cheng]

But both YG and GJ had to protect someone so I won't give you that

This is really going to be splitting hairs, but there was a difference even here: Yeung Gor had all of his enemies in front of him. He didn't need to be concerned that someone was going to stab him in the back. Gwok Jing, on the other hand, was surrounded by his enemies, and at least one person had plans to stab him in the back.

[Whsie]

plus the atmosphere was different. YG was fighting near an area where he trained before.
GJ is fighting with a whole ARMY of Mongolians surrounding you. I don't know about you, but I would certainly be MUCH more intimidated with an army around you.

[duguxiaojing]

plus the atmosphere was different. YG was fighting near an area where he trained before.

Actually, YG was surrounded by thousands of enemies as well(QZ disciples and Mongolian soliders sent to destroy QZ sect.) Lucky for him the QZ masters were honorable people, although YG did not know that at this point.

[Ken Cheng]

Actually, YG was surrounded by thousands of enemies as well(QZ disciples and Mongolian soliders sent to destroy QZ sect.) Lucky for him the QZ masters were honorable people, although YG did not know that at this point.

The Cheun Jen Sect wasn't out to kill him on that occassion. Yeung Gor and the Cheun Jen Sect Taoists might not have been best amigos, but both sides knew that their real, common enemy was the Mongols. Other than possibly Chiu Tze Ging, nobody from the Chung Yeung Temple had any ideas about harming Yeung Gor on that day.

[Snafu3721]

Yea I'll give you that YG had only 1v1 while GJ had to face 4v1
But both YG and GJ had to protect someone so I won't give you that

It's different when you are protecting someone who wants to be saved and can probably synchronize with all your movements like XLN and YG.
Versus trying to save someone who is trying to kill you by constantly getting himself in a situation that puts you in mortal danger like YG with GJ. Then there is the backstabbing that Ken mentioned.

[duguxiaojing]

The Cheun Jen Sect wasn't out to kill him on that occassion. Yeung Gor and the Cheun Jen Sect Taoists might not have been best amigos, but both sides knew that their real, common enemy was the Mongols. Other than possibly Chiu Tze Ging, nobody from the Chung Yeung Temple had any ideas about harming Yeung Gor on that day.

Actually, at first they(wrongly) blamed XLN and YG for help causing the attack at CY temple. After YG defeated the mercenaries which forced the mongols to leave, they were surrouned by hundreds of QZ disciples using a formation. Because QCJ was an honorable man and he considered past relations with YG/AT sect he offered a truce. But it was not until YZP openly admitted that he had raped XLN, that QCJ ordered everyone to shealth their weapons. Later when YG saved SBE, QCZ and the other masters finally lost all their animosity towards YG.

Prior to this they had no idea what caused the attack. It was not until they inquired their disciples on the events of that day, that the QZmasters finally felt grateful towards XLN and YG for saving their sect.

It's different when you are protecting someone who wants to be saved and can probably synchronize with all your movements like XLN and YG.

Not going to argue who had it worse, but YG was too afraid to even make sudden movements in fear of hurting an already severily wounded XLN who was leaning on him. Remember that XLN barely had enough strenght to lift a NEEDLE towards GWM's eye. I doubt there was any "synchronizing" going on.

[Ken Cheng]

Actually, at first they(wrongly) blamed XLN and YG for help causing the attack at CY temple. After YG defeated the mercenaries which forced the mongols to leave, they were surrouned by hundreds of QZ disciples using a formation. Because QCJ was an honorable man and he considered past relations with YG/AT sect he offered a truce. But it was not until YZP openly admitted that he had raped XLN, that QCJ ordered everyone to shealth their weapons. Later when YG saved SBE, QCZ and the other masters finally lost all their animosity towards YG.

Prior to this they had no idea what caused the attack. It was not until they inquired their disciples on the events of that day, that the QZmasters finally felt grateful towards XLN and YG for saving their sect.

All of which means it never came down to five Mongol martial arts experts, the Mongol army, and the Cheun Jen Sect all bearing down on Yeung Gor at the same time. At the Chung Yeung Temple, Yeung Gor didn't have multiple enemies arrayed at him simultaneously. The story would have taken a different turn if that had been the case.

Gwok Jing had the four Mongol martial arts experts and the Mongol soldiers to contend with (although honestly, the soldiers didn't do much more than mill around and cut off various avenues of egress - which is nevertheless more than the soldiers at the Chung Yeung Temple did against Yeung Gor), and waiting in the wings to kill him when he least suspected it was Yeung Gor himself. Yeung Gor ultimately couldn't bring himself to do it, but his halfhearted attempt did create the distraction necessary for Lui Mor Singh and the Golden Wheel Monk to finally get through Gwok Jing's previously impenetrable defense.

[duguxiaojing]

All of which means it never came down to five Mongol martial arts experts, the Mongol army, and the Cheun Jen Sect all bearing down on Yeung Gor at the same time. At the Chung Yeung Temple, Yeung Gor didn't have multiple enemies arrayed at him simultaneously. The story would have taken a different turn if that had been the case.

As I said before in the previous post, I was not arguing who had a tougher time. I responded to this post.

plus the atmosphere was different. YG was fighting near an area where he trained before.

Which I felt was inccorect because, YG too was surronded by both QZ AND mongolian soliders +the mercenaries. So the "atmosphere" was the same in both situations. YG was defiently not on friendly territory.

Gwok Jing had the four Mongol martial arts experts and the Mongol soldiers to contend with (although honestly, the soldiers didn't do much more than mill around and cut off various avenues of egress - which is nevertheless more than the soldiers at the Chung Yeung Temple did against Yeung Gor), and waiting in the wings to kill him when he least suspected it was Yeung Gor himself.

IIRC the only time other mongol soliders attacked GJ was when he tried to escape and when he left the mogol prince's tent. When GJ took on those elites the soliders did not interfere. This was the same as YG's situation. YG was completely surronded by enemies but they did not interfere until he tried to leave with an injured XLN. So again the atmosphere was the same. The main difference should be GJ simutaneously taking on all the elites while YG was fighting one on one. It's debatable wether GJ would have been more distracted by YG, because YG also had the burden of caring for (and carrying) an injured XLN.

[Ken Cheng]

It's debatable wether GJ would have been more distracted by YG, because YG also had the burden of caring for (and carrying) an injured XLN.

Here's where the difference lies:

Little Dragon Girl was leaning on Yeung Gor. Because of her injury, she wasn't going anywhere. Moreover, she certainly wasn't going to stab Yeung Gor in the back.

Sure, Yeung Gor was very concerned about her, but that doesn't mean he wasn't focused on the fight. On the contrary, he had to be very focused because he had to survive and save her. During Yeung Gor's fights with the various Mongol experts, he wasn't distracted, and he didn't need to worry about anybody making a backstabbing play on him.

When Gwok Jing faced the Mongol experts, he faced a moment of decision: save Yeung Gor, or protect himself. Gwok Jing saw what he thought was Siu Seung Tze attempting a finishing blow on Yeung Gor (not knowing that it was actually Siu Seung Tze trying to prevent Yeung Gor from backstabbing Gwok Jing and claiming the title of Greatest Warrior of the Mongol Empire). In that moment, Gwok Jing had to choose between striking out to save Yeung Gor (which would open Gwok Jing's defenses to the Golden Wheel Monk and Lui Mor Singh) or letting Yeung Gor die and maintaining his defense. Gwok Jing chose to help Yeung Gor, and because he did, he left himself open to attack by the Golden Wheel Monk and Lui Mor Singh.

Yeung Gor didn't face such a distraction at the Chung Yeung Temple...nothing that diverted his attention away from the fight, in any case.

[duguxiaojing]

RE KC. Cant quote all at once for some reason it cuts off between spaces.



Although what you say is true, GJ movements were not restricted while YG had to fight the mercanries standing in one place. At times he did not even swing his sword to break GWM's wheels because he feared to move. Also GWM and YKX both attacked XLN to distract YG, placing him in a huge disadvantage...especially against GWM, who was already = to YG at this time. Had GMW not faked an attack on XLN, YG had a pretty good chance of winning. Even GWM himself was not confident that he could defeat YG after seeing him dispose the rest of his "comrades" within a stance of two.


Just to comment on this point

nothing that diverted his attention away from the fight, in any case.

..in addition to his limited mobility, YG was filled with worry and anxiety to end the fight fast. He knew the longer he waited the less chance XLN had of surviving. It was also noted by GWM that YG was distracted at this point, plus he was forced to hold onto XLN, which gave him an opportune moment to end any threats of facing YG+XLN in the future.

Anyways...IMO YG seemed to have as many distractions as GJ..he definetly was not fighting at his 100 percent potential both physically and mentally.

[LuNaR]

ken is rite, yang guo was/is no where best in ROCH. guo jin can easily defeat him w/ his 20+ more years of training.

[ltcuoi]

ken is rite, yang guo was/is no where best in ROCH. guo jin can easily defeat him w/ his 20+ more years of training.

Happy mode maybe. In sad mode, YG would spank GJ.

[LuNaR]

hahahaha sad mode? u make it sound like some pokemon battle lol... YG i choose u, u use sad mode now!

[ltcuoi]

hahahaha sad mode? u make it sound like some pokemon battle lol... YG i choose u, u use sad mode now!

Seriously though, if GJ can't defeat GWM, how is he going to have a chance against YG?

BTW, you seem to like GJ a lot. Here is a present for you: Click here