The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Ken Cheng]

Up to that point, GWM was in normal mode, against Sad Mode YG, he was in overconfident mode, than reckless mode.

Doesn't the Golden Wheel Monk have a Bonehead Mode too, CC?

[Huang Rong]

Doesn't the Golden Wheel Monk have a Bone-head Mode too?

LOL,
Seriously: considering extreme modes, Shi Potian seems to be the strongest, in trance mode he could destroy an island and jump over a half of an ocean!!!!! I don't think Xu Zhu can do so, the half-monk-half-taoist has a great amount of energy but he doesn't have his own extreme mode in which his full power is released.

[ltcuoi]

Doesn't the Golden Wheel Monk have a Bonehead Mode too, CC?

GWM was a mode lester.

[PJ]

If Guo Jing couldn't defeat GWM, how is he going to have a chance against someone who killed GWM?

How do you know Guo Jing can't defeat Jinlun Guoshi? Please provide context-specific evidence from the text.

[PJ]

To answer your first question, if GWM stepped back after the palm exchange he would have finished GJ with the second palm.

Yea rite

To answer your second question, GWM was being distracted by the other three fighters that's why he couldn't take care of GJ.

No. Guo Jing was too powerful; that's why Jinlun + 3 warriors couldn't take care of Guo Jing.

Furtheremore, JY said that they both need more than 1000 stances to determine the winner.

That was 16 years ago.

YG only needed a few stances to take care of GWM.

You do the math.

Hello, Yang Guo's final stances caught Jinlun Guoshi by surprise. Before then they had exchanged 300+ blows without any conclusion.

When the Xuanming Elders caught Zhang Wuji by surprise, they could force him back and injure him. Later, when they competed in a fair fight, it was stated that Zhang Wuji could kill them VERY EASILY. So based on the surprise attack, are you going to assert that Xuanming Elders can injure Zhang Wuji in one stance?

[sarakoth]

We should also keep in mind that during the Great 16-Year-Gap of ROCH, YG practiced really hard while GJ didn't practice at all. Yet, GJ stated that YG's internal energy was about equal to his own. So GJ's height was really pre16 years while YG's height was post16 years. I think that GJ is a tad better because of his many years of study of the 9YZJ.

[Ken Cheng]

We should also keep in mind that during the Great 16-Year-Gap of ROCH, YG practiced really hard while GJ didn't practice at all. Yet, GJ stated that YG's internal energy was about equal to his own. So GJ's height was really pre16 years while YG's height was post16 years. I think that GJ is a tad better because of his many years of study of the 9YZJ.

I see that you've finally joined the Granddaddy of All Wuxia Debates.

One of the greatest things about the 9 Yum Jen Ging is that it's the gift that keeps on giving. Once a user has mastered the internal training unit of the manual, the inner power will perpetually continue to grow (although in gradual rather than exponential increments). The user literally increases his inner power with each breath he takes. Even without active training, Gwok Jing was keeping pace with all the other Greats (Yeung Gor and Golden Wheel Monk inclusive) during all those years at Seung Yeung Fortress.

[CC]

Ahahaha! This thread keeps clawing its way out of the Abyss!

Frankly, the claim of 9 yin and Quan Zhen internal being ever increasing along with the 10x boosting ice bed is another example of JY _not_ using our style of wuxia math (just like the WCY thingy).

[Ken Cheng]

Ahahaha! This thread keeps clawing its way out of the Abyss!

Frankly, the claim of 9 yin and Quan Zhen internal being ever increasing along with the 10x boosting ice bed is another example of JY _not_ using our style of wuxia math (just like the WCY thingy).

The claim about the constant growth of 9 Yum Jen Ging inner power is more plausible than the Icy Bed, however, because it doesn't claim that the power growth is exponential. Expert 9 Yum Jen Ging practitioners benefit from constant inner power growth, but it's a gradual, incremental growth rather than a huge quantum boost. The Icy Bed claim, however, says that each year of training on the bed is equivalent to ten years of training without it...an apparent exponential rate of growth that is not borne out by the results achieved by its users.

[PJ]

This debate will never end.

We should also keep in mind that during the Great 16-Year-Gap of ROCH, YG practiced really hard while GJ didn't practice at all.

How do you know? Was that implied or stated?

So GJ's height was really pre16 years while YG's height was post16 years.

Somebody once posted a thought which ran something like this:

YG's martial arts abilities increased after the 16 years, GLFW's abilities increased as well, Zhang San Feng's abilities increased dramatically the older he got, DGQB's increased the older he got (let's stop here, I really don't want to get into too many examples), yet GJ, in charge of one of the most strategially important bastions, to whom martial arts is a way of keeping one's country alive, wouldn't? His martial arts improved from LOCH to beginning or ROCH, that much Jing Yong tells us, yet somehow, miraculously, in all those long years during the latter years of ROCH, when he entered his 50's, traditionally considered close to the peak of martial arts abilities, didn't improve at all?

[Ken Cheng]

This debate will never end.

The thread has long since transcended the boundaries of mere "debate." It has become a monument to dedicated wuxia fandom.

[Bangs]

This debate will never end.

I wonder why.....

YG himself never thought that he'd ever surpass GJ. GJ on the hand, always thought highly of YG and expects a lot from him. These two heroes don't hate each other yet time and again we try to pit them against each other. Long live this never ending thread, I anticipate reading this same thread 5 years from now.

[batmankiller]

The claim about the constant growth of 9 Yum Jen Ging inner power is more plausible than the Icy Bed, however, because it doesn't claim that the power growth is exponential. Expert 9 Yum Jen Ging practitioners benefit from constant inner power growth, but it's a gradual, incremental growth rather than a huge quantum boost. The Icy Bed claim, however, says that each year of training on the bed is equivalent to ten years training with out it...an apparent exponential rate of growth that is not borne out by the results achieved by its users.

yes but you have to realize that neither YG or XLN trained on it 24/7, and i'm not sure if it was internal energy..

[Ken Cheng]

yes but you have to realize that neither YG or XLN trained on it 24/7, and i'm not sure if it was internal energy..

Eh...I think that's splitting semantic hairs. NOBODY trains martial arts 24/7 for years on end (that person would die). The claim must have been meant to be understood as training at regular intervals over a one-year period.

[Exodus]

i don't think YG trained hard all the time during the 16 yrs gap. he trained hard really hard for maybe 7 yrs after that he just roamed around...

[sixdays]

hey everybody!

it's been years since i posted here, but one of my very favorite topics was GJ vs YG. So in continuing the grand SPCNET tradition of never letting this die, i'd like to take another fresh faced stab at the situation. This post is the first of a few, because i'd like to start solely with profiling their backgrounds (a daunting task, i know). if possible, i'd like to end this little series with a GRUDEMATCH (TM) style fight between YG and GJ. I think it'll be fun to write.


DISCLAIMER: i like using analogies a lot to clarify, so please bear with me if a seem a bit off topic. Feel free to ask me what the hell i'm really talking about.

DISCLAIMER #2: i will be comparing YG and GJ at the end of ROCH, to the best of our knowledge. that means YG when he means Zhang Junbao on Huashan, and GJ at the skill level that we last see him in (most likely one of the last Mongolian fights). If there's anything later than the Mongolian fights that would affect GJ's skill, then please post and i'll take it into account.

DISCLAIMER #3: some of you may not like this, but i'm going to make this a fight to the death, a la OYF and H7G. that's when those two Greats displayed their best, and YG and GJ deserve the same. i'll make up some BS reason why they wanna kill each other later. =)


Okay. Years ago, i was a die hard YG fan (i still like him quite a lot as a fighter for his creativity) so i'll probably start with him on these points.

---

Stage 1: Internal Energy


it seems that one of the big debates of superiority center around both of their internal energy -- both quality and abundance. let's start with YG.

His base is QZ, reinforced by 9yin and Jade Maiden techniques. The disclaimer here is that he doesn't have the full 9in incorporated, so he will NOT improve the way 9yin (and therefore GJ) does. The rate of improvement aside, his TOTAL energy (think of it as total HP rather than HP regeneration rate, you RPG geeks) was improved dramatically by the snake gallbladders.

It occurs to me that YG trains his internal energy much like a bodybuilder trains his muscles -- raw power. See, the way a bodybuilder (or professional athlete, or anyone who needs lots of mass and explosive power in his/her muscles) works their muscles is by pushing those muscles to the limit, to the point of breaking (or ripping to be precise). as these muscles heal, they form stronger bonds and strength is increased. This is simplified quite a lot, but for our purposes it will do fine. YG is the same way with his internal energy --- battling ocean currents is frankly superhuman, much less with a stick of wood in your hand. this is brute strength at its finest, and like brute strength will respond to greater resistance. more strength? bigger weights, bigger force. you'll stop improving when you can't lift anymore, or the force is too great to resist. To clarify, this is the quality a lot of you (and JY translations) popularly describe as "robustness".


now comes the second issue: control. we've all seen huge WWF wrestlers with bulging pecs and we've all thought to ourselves that bruce lee could destroy them with just one kick or punch (and probably glance, as bruce is the greatest and now that he's gone we can exaggerate his legend all we want). the reason bruce can kick the huge guy's *** is because of the application of his power.

GJ has this same quality. Frankly, 9yin is among the best, if not THE best guide in application and strengthening of internal power. This is similar to conditioning in real life -- where the power gets applied, in other words. GJ has huge reserves of energy similar to YG, but knows how to use it very, very well --- and this is a huge plus in his factor. This is the quality we usually describe as "profoundness".

But hold your horses, if you think YG is at a disadvantage here. Remember the passage describing his training at the beach? There's a section where it talks about the roars of his swordplay going loud, then soft as the years go by until he can control the roar at will. What does this mean? it means, in his own way, YG has learned to control his power as well. From fierce, crushing power (his loud roar) to quiet, intense pulses (the soft swordplay) YG has learned to manipulate his internal energy at will.

Will that be enough against GJ's superior methods? My final post (the fight) will tell, but as for now i'd like to point you to Rocky IV, when Ivan Drago has all the nice modern equipment to train, and Rocky is pushing his wife around in a cart through the snow. Think about it, fellas.


----

Stage 2: Technique

First things first: YG's biggest unique strengths here are going to be Dugu's swordplay and Sad Palms. As far as Dugu goes, I'm going to allow YG to use his iron sword. He acknowledged against GLFW that he was not yet strong enough to use the "no sword" technique -- therefore, assuming that GJ is AT LEAST as strong as GLFW (most likely stronger), YG will use his iron sword. This will undoubtedly destroy any weapon GJ will use, as any sword/item will shatter against the iron sword's superior material. The only possible exception would be the dog beating stick, as it is flexible and wouldn't meet the iron sword head on, but the issue is moot since GJ doesn't know Da Gou Pang Fa (DBS technique).

Alright, let's get it out of the way: Most of YG's huge repertoire of kung fu is going to suck against GJ. Let's just be honest, right now. Jade Maiden is not going to kick GJ's ***. (Yes, i know their lightness kungfu is probably superior, but running away is NOT the point in this brawl. GJ and YG are so closely matched that footwork probably will not decide the match. Tune in to find out). 9yin hypno tricks are not going to kick his ***. Toad stance will blow against GJ because YG honestly has not trained it to its highest level.

How do i know this? because YG knew it, too. that's why he took all the best bits and pieces and threw it into his own creation --- Sad Palms. He's got stuff to match up to freaking EVERY technique in there (or most of em --- excuse my hyperbole). remember, though it is technically called "Sad Palms", YG's martial art is a complex and complete set of movements involving the whole body, not just his palms. examples?

vacant fist --- flowing sleeve

HL18Z -- whatever he busted against HYS to make him impressed at the overwhelming power of SP

L/R technique --- that crazy move where everything including YG's stomach is attacking

9yin hypnotism/strange evasion tactics -- emotion moves in Sad Palms, and unorthodox movements

Da Gou Pang Fa -- elements of trip/steal/etc worked into SP movements.

there's probably more, but i digress. the big debate here isn't all the cool stuff that YG can do, it's whether it'll stack up to GJ's traditional, and often superior methods. To use another analogy, YG is basically a suped up tuner car. He's an Integra with a big fat turbo and suspension upgrades. He's got a huge exhuast, carbon fiber everything. He's a Mitsubishi Evo -- kind of lame on paper with 270HP, but a freaking beast on the track.

GJ ON THE OTHER HAND IS A FREAKING LAMBORGHINI.

this dude is straight traditional, learning from the best. HL18Z? The best in the business for power. 9yin? the best in the business for internal. QZ? the most traditional of traditional, outside of shaolin (but frankly similar thanks to their religious undertones). not only great techniques, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, probably the best philosophy in how and when to use your martial arts (with the possible exception of tai chi and shaolin).

anyways, you get the point. GJ is the product of the best the traditional martial world had to offer at that time. he is a well engineered monster of a pugilist, and also has the dedication and drive to improve those skills to levels never before seen. YG, by comparison, is a more modern approach: ingenuity plus a new powerplant, very different from traditional martial arts techniques (DGQB). truly japanese engineering versus italian tradition.

Then again, Lancer Evolutions have been known to WHUP lamborghinis on the race track. Again, you'll have to look to the actual fight to find out. =)


-----

and finally, we come to the last comparison of my profiling.

Stage 3: Experience

This one is really, very difficult to quantify. At first glance, GJ seems to have the clear advantage here, with 20 extra years of experience. The most important issue to examine here, however, is the kind of people GJ has fought against. Let's examine them by opponent, or sparring partner, respectively.

The Greats: This is a big one. widely considered to be the very best in the central plains, this is the cream of the crop. you don't get more original than HYS, more raw power than H7G, more lethal than OYF, more regal and refined than 1deng, and more weird -- err, unpredictable -- than ZBT. The knowledge gained from fighting them as a youngster, and later in his prime is immeasurable.

pros: learning how to fight against high powered opponents with top tier skills.

Mongolian Fighters: Underhanded, they would gang up on GJ --- even one on one, GLFW is a serious opponent on a Greats level, with the added danger of not showing mercy.

pros: learning to fight against groups (limited, because there was infighting amongst the mongolian warriors), learning to fight a high powered opponent in a real situation

Mei Chao Feng: She is pure evil. Stopping at nothing, using brutal methods, always going for the kill --- gives me chills just thinking about it.

pros: learning to fight against ruthless means, and learning that honor will not always apply in a fight.

HR: though never an enemy, HR often pitted her skills against her Jing Ge Ge. She doesn't have the outright power to defeat him, but often her Dog Beating Stick and superior "strategery" will be enough to confuse and distract him for extended periods of time.

pros: learning to fight against misdirection and strategy. this is huge, as this is one of YG's biggest advantages.



onto YG. his opponents/sparring partners as follows:

The Greats: What was said for GJ applies for YG here also, but possibly even more so. when GJ fought the Greats (with the exception of OYF) it was all in LOCH. YG has seen each Great in his prime AND learned personally from them. He saw the last genius of OYF and H7G on Huashan, he learned from HYS personally, was a great friend of ZBT (even tested his Sad Palms against him) and compared internal energy with 1Deng at Ying Gu's house.

pros: same as GJ, with the added benefit of experience with the Greats when they were at a greater level

GLFW: one of YG's biggest assets. Throughout ROCH until the very end, GLFW outclasses YG. YG must find a way to best an opponent clearly stronger than him by using brains and creativity alone.

pros: learning how to fight against raw power possibly above his own; applying his skill set efficiently to dispatch a superior fighter

XLN: another huge asset for YG. GJ is YG's foster father, basically -- no matter what situation i dream up for them to fight, YG will be affected by this. He has proved this in his botched assassination attempt against GJ, as well as his treatment of GF (refusal to kill/hurt her) and the rest of the family. How will his training with XLN help, you ask? Ancient Tomb martial arts emphasizes the need to separate emotion from the practice of martial arts. YG will use this knowledge effectively, knowing not to let his feelings for Uncle GJ cloud his fighting spirit.

This is an extra important point, because GJ likely will not be able to do the same.

pros: controlling his emotions effectively, not letting them affect the outcome of the fight

Criminals: This is an often overlooked point in YG's life -- his "superhero" deeds in which he dealt with the worst criminal elements of China for over 10 years. like Batman (haha, that's a funny comparison but true) YG will have learned how to deal with unfair odds, surprise attacks, and how to use trickery and suspense to his advantage. don't believe me? reread the different ways he takes care of the mongolian soldiers for GX's birthday. He's one bad mutha, everyone fears him.

pros: not much one on one against GJ because GJ is so honorable, but this will come into play in case HR or that stupid girl GF decide to meddle in the fight.



--------



that should do it for the first part, folks. i'm really looking forward to any comments or observations you have regarding my post.


i love this debate! stay tuned for part 2: the location...


will aka sixdays

[kwekmh]

@sixdays, I like how you handled the debate.

Personally, I have to agree with a lot of your points, if not all.

[sixdays]

thanks bro. i've gotten really excited about this topic, and actually just finished part 2 spur of the moment. i thnk i'm actually going to start a new thread on it.

i'll call it

"a fresh take on an old perspective"

take care.

six

[sixdays]

*edit: i posted this in the YG/GJ polls originally, but decided to go much further with the idea so i started a new thread.*

hey everybody!

it's been years since i posted here, but one of my very favorite topics was GJ vs YG. So in continuing the grand SPCNET tradition of never letting this die, i'd like to take another fresh faced stab at the situation. This post is the first of a few, because i'd like to start solely with profiling their backgrounds (a daunting task, i know). if possible, i'd like to end this little series with a GRUDEMATCH (TM) style fight between YG and GJ. I think it'll be fun to write.


DISCLAIMER: i like using analogies a lot to clarify, so please bear with me if a seem a bit off topic. Feel free to ask me what the hell i'm really talking about.

DISCLAIMER #2: i will be comparing YG and GJ at the end of ROCH, to the best of our knowledge. that means YG when he means Zhang Junbao on Huashan, and GJ at the skill level that we last see him in (most likely one of the last Mongolian fights). If there's anything later than the Mongolian fights that would affect GJ's skill, then please post and i'll take it into account.

DISCLAIMER #3: some of you may not like this, but i'm going to make this a fight to the death, a la OYF and H7G. that's when those two Greats displayed their best, and YG and GJ deserve the same. i'll make up some BS reason why they wanna kill each other later. =)


Okay. Years ago, i was a die hard YG fan (i still like him quite a lot as a fighter for his creativity) so i'll probably start with him on these points.

---

Stage 1: Internal Energy


it seems that one of the big debates of superiority center around both of their internal energy -- both quality and abundance. let's start with YG.

His base is QZ, reinforced by 9yin and Jade Maiden techniques. The disclaimer here is that he doesn't have the full 9in incorporated, so he will NOT improve the way 9yin (and therefore GJ) does. The rate of improvement aside, his TOTAL energy (think of it as total HP rather than HP regeneration rate, you RPG geeks) was improved dramatically by the snake gallbladders.

It occurs to me that YG trains his internal energy much like a bodybuilder trains his muscles -- raw power. See, the way a bodybuilder (or professional athlete, or anyone who needs lots of mass and explosive power in his/her muscles) works their muscles is by pushing those muscles to the limit, to the point of breaking (or ripping to be precise). as these muscles heal, they form stronger bonds and strength is increased. This is simplified quite a lot, but for our purposes it will do fine. YG is the same way with his internal energy --- battling ocean currents is frankly superhuman, much less with a stick of wood in your hand. this is brute strength at its finest, and like brute strength will respond to greater resistance. more strength? bigger weights, bigger force. you'll stop improving when you can't lift anymore, or the force is too great to resist. To clarify, this is the quality a lot of you (and JY translations) popularly describe as "robustness".


now comes the second issue: control. we've all seen huge WWF wrestlers with bulging pecs and we've all thought to ourselves that bruce lee could destroy them with just one kick or punch (and probably glance, as bruce is the greatest and now that he's gone we can exaggerate his legend all we want). the reason bruce can kick the huge guy's *** is because of the application of his power.

GJ has this same quality. Frankly, 9yin is among the best, if not THE best guide in application and strengthening of internal power. This is similar to conditioning in real life -- where the power gets applied, in other words. GJ has huge reserves of energy similar to YG, but knows how to use it very, very well --- and this is a huge plus in his factor. This is the quality we usually describe as "profoundness".

But hold your horses, if you think YG is at a disadvantage here. Remember the passage describing his training at the beach? There's a section where it talks about the roars of his swordplay going loud, then soft as the years go by until he can control the roar at will. What does this mean? it means, in his own way, YG has learned to control his power as well. From fierce, crushing power (his loud roar) to quiet, intense pulses (the soft swordplay) YG has learned to manipulate his internal energy at will.

Will that be enough against GJ's superior methods? My final post (the fight) will tell, but as for now i'd like to point you to Rocky IV, when Ivan Drago has all the nice modern equipment to train, and Rocky is pushing his wife around in a cart through the snow. Think about it, fellas.


----

Stage 2: Technique

First things first: YG's biggest unique strengths here are going to be Dugu's swordplay and Sad Palms. As far as Dugu swordplay goes, I'm going to allow YG to use his iron sword. He acknowledged against GLFW that he was not yet strong enough to use the "no sword" technique -- therefore, assuming that GJ is AT LEAST as strong as GLFW (most likely stronger), YG will use his iron sword. This will undoubtedly destroy any weapon GJ will use, as any sword/item will shatter against the iron sword's superior material. The only possible exception would be the dog beating stick, as it is flexible and wouldn't meet the iron sword head on, but the issue is moot since GJ doesn't know Da Gou Pang Fa (DBS technique).

Alright, let's get it out of the way: Most of YG's huge repertoire of kung fu is going to suck against GJ. Let's just be honest, right now. Jade Maiden is not going to kick GJ's ***. (Yes, i know their lightness kungfu is probably superior, but running away is NOT the point in this brawl. GJ and YG are so closely matched that footwork probably will not decide the match. Tune in to find out). 9yin hypno tricks are not going to kick his ***. Toad stance will blow against GJ because YG honestly has not trained it to its highest level.

How do i know this? because YG knew it, too. that's why he took all the best bits and pieces and threw it into his own creation --- Sad Palms. He's got stuff to match up to freaking EVERY technique in there (or most of em --- excuse my hyperbole). remember, though it is technically called "Sad Palms", YG's martial art is a complex and complete set of movements involving the whole body, not just his palms. examples?

vacant fist --- flowing sleeve

HL18Z -- whatever he busted against HYS to make him impressed at the overwhelming power of SP

L/R technique --- that crazy move where everything including YG's stomach is attacking

9yin hypnotism/strange evasion tactics -- emotion moves in Sad Palms, and unorthodox movements

Da Gou Pang Fa -- elements of trip/steal/etc worked into SP movements.

there's probably more, but i digress. the big debate here isn't all the cool stuff that YG can do, it's whether it'll stack up to GJ's traditional, and often superior methods. To use another analogy, YG is basically a suped up tuner car. He's an Integra with a big fat turbo and suspension upgrades. He's got a huge exhuast, carbon fiber everything. He's a Mitsubishi Evo -- kind of nderpowered on paper with 270HP, but a freaking beast on the track.

GJ ON THE OTHER HAND IS A FREAKING LAMBORGHINI.

this dude is straight traditional, learning from the best. HL18Z? The best in the business for fierceness. 9yin? the best in the business for controlled power. QZ? the most traditional of traditional, outside of shaolin (but frankly similar thanks to their religious undertones). not only great techniques, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, probably the best philosophy in how and when to use your martial arts (with the possible exception of tai chi and shaolin).

anyways, you get the point. GJ is the product of the best the traditional martial world had to offer at that time. he is a well engineered monster of a pugilist, and also has the dedication and drive to improve those skills to levels never before seen. YG, by comparison, is a more modern approach: ingenuity plus a new powerplant, very different from traditional martial arts techniques (DGQB). truly japanese engineering versus italian tradition.

Then again, Lancer Evolutions have been known to WHUP lamborghinis on the race track. Again, you'll have to look to the actual fight to find out. =)


-----

and finally, we come to the last comparison of my profiling.

Stage 3: Experience

This one is really, very difficult to quantify. At first glance, GJ seems to have the clear advantage here, with 20 extra years of experience. The most important issue to examine here, however, is the kind of people GJ has fought against. Let's examine them by opponent, or sparring partner, respectively.

The Greats: This is a big one. widely considered to be the very best in the central plains, this is the cream of the crop. you don't get more original than HYS, more raw power than H7G, more lethal than OYF, more regal and refined than 1deng, and more weird -- err, unpredictable -- than ZBT. The knowledge gained from fighting them as a youngster, and later in his prime is immeasurable.

pros: learning how to fight against high powered opponents with top tier skills.

Mongolian Fighters: Underhanded, they would gang up on GJ --- even one on one, GLFW is a serious opponent on a Greats level, with the added danger of not showing mercy.

pros: learning to fight against groups (limited, because there was infighting amongst the mongolian warriors), learning to fight a high powered opponent in a real situation

Mei Chao Feng: She is pure evil. Stopping at nothing, using brutal methods, always going for the kill --- gives me chills just thinking about it.

pros: learning to fight against ruthless means, and learning that honor will not always apply in a fight.

HR: though never an enemy, HR often pitted her skills against her Jing Ge Ge. She doesn't have the outright power to defeat him, but often her Dog Beating Stick and superior "strategery" will be enough to confuse and distract him for extended periods of time.

pros: learning to fight against misdirection and strategy. this is huge, as this is one of YG's biggest advantages.



onto YG. his opponents/sparring partners as follows:

The Greats: What was said for GJ applies for YG here also, but possibly even more so. when GJ fought the Greats (with the exception of OYF) it was all in LOCH. YG has seen each Great in his prime AND learned personally from them. He saw the last genius of OYF and H7G on Huashan, he learned from HYS personally, was a great friend of ZBT (even tested his Sad Palms against him) and compared internal energy with 1Deng at Ying Gu's house.

pros: same as GJ, with the added benefit of experience with the Greats when they were at a greater level

GLFW: one of YG's biggest assets. Throughout ROCH until the very end, GLFW outclasses YG. YG must find a way to best an opponent clearly stronger than him by using brains and creativity alone.

pros: learning how to fight against raw power possibly above his own; applying his skill set efficiently to dispatch a superior fighter

XLN: another huge asset for YG. GJ is YG's foster father, basically -- no matter what situation i dream up for them to fight, YG will be affected by this. He has proved this in his botched assassination attempt against GJ, as well as his treatment of GF (refusal to kill/hurt her) and the rest of the family. How will his training with XLN help, you ask? Ancient Tomb martial arts emphasizes the need to separate emotion from the practice of martial arts. YG will use this knowledge effectively, knowing not to let his feelings for Uncle GJ cloud his fighting spirit.

This is an extra important point, because GJ likely will not be able to do the same.

pros: controlling his emotions effectively, not letting them affect the outcome of the fight

Criminals: This is an often overlooked point in YG's life -- his "superhero" deeds in which he dealt with the worst criminal elements of China for over 10 years. like Batman (haha, that's a funny comparison but true) YG will have learned how to deal with unfair odds, surprise attacks, and how to use trickery and suspense to his advantage. don't believe me? reread the different ways he takes care of the mongolian soldiers for GX's birthday. He's one bad mutha, everyone fears him.

pros: not much one on one against GJ because GJ is so honorable, but this will come into play in case either HR or that stupid girl GF decide to meddle in the fight.



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that should do it for the first part, folks. i'm really looking forward to any comments or observations you have regarding my post.


i love this debate! stay tuned for part 2: the location...


will aka sixdays

[sixdays]

Note: My background is Hong Kong - American, but I've noticed that SPCNET is more comfortable with Mandarin terms, so I've made changes accordingly.

WARNING: This short story contains mild sexuality and violence. Nothing graphic at all that wouldn't be in a PG-13 movie -- or indeed, JY's own novels --- but be forewarned if you're at all squeamish about that kind of stuff.

Part 1: "Prelude to a Battle"

"Hei..."

Guo Jing's shuddering sigh belied the rage boiling inside him. He held himself rigid, quivering slightly in his anger. Blood slowly dripped onto the splintered remains of a table, shattered fragments of porcelain from what used to be a wine cup embedded in his hand. "How can he do this, Rong Er?" Guo Jing's speech was slurred slightly from the Nu Er Hong still dribbling from his lips. "How could he possibly do this to me -- to us! Even after all his father had done, I loved him like a son...a son, damn him! Guo Er, how..." He slowly slumped to the floor, his legs rendered useless in his grief.


Huang Rong seethed with rage, her fingers digging into the soft flesh of a motionless Xiao Long Nu's shoulder. "That cruel monster, that miserable outcast! I never trusted him, even when he was a child! There was a dark seed in him, and now it is black fruit that has been born. I will make him ---" she gasped for breath, shuddering with malice -- "PAY for this. I will make him pay with his precious Gu Gu."