The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[superboy]

There is no proof on your statement that once a person which the Great's level, his internal energy will improve slower. GLFW was a Great elvel fighter since the start of ROCH, and he was still able to improve dramatically during the 16 years periond. ZBT and Z3F had also mentioend that taoist internal eenrgy improves at a faster rate as you practice it.

[philip]

On that, I did I already gave reasons that ZBT

1) No longer practiced as hard as he did after he escaped from the islad
2) Was getting quite old. Like how I said Yi Deng's internal energy was no long as good as his prime
3) ZBT never actively practice the internal energy part or techniques. I don't knoe if 9 Yin increases if you didn't train, but I bet it will fail to compare to someone that actually actively train it like GJ.

1) so ZBT not practicing will have an affect on his improvement rate, but GJ being busy w/ 2 daughters, 1 son, 2 disicples, and a whole city to defend will not have effect on his improvement rate? Second, ZBT not training? is that even possible considering he's a kung fu- Geek?

2) comming from something who believes that YG's speculation on how "GJ is the best" can make a point, then couldn't ZBT thinking that he was better off in his old age than he was younger also make a point in ZBT's ability not decreasing due to his age?

3) ZBT's use of it was significant enough for him to become from quite a level below HYS, to surpassing him.

[superboy]

1) so ZBT not practicing will have an affect on his improvement rate, but GJ being busy w/ 2 daughters, 1 son, 2 disicples, and a whole city to defend will not have effect on his improvement rate? Second, ZBT not training? is that even possible considering he's a kung fu- Geek?

Just to explain why ZBT improve so fast in LOCH. He got really nothing to do in his cave for 15 years. I don't believe that ZBT stopped training, but as much as a geek he is, he still played around much more than he did in the island.

2) comming from something who believes that YG's speculation on how "GJ is the best" can make a point, then couldn't ZBT thinking that he was better off in his old age than he was younger also make a point in ZBT's ability not decreasing due to his age?

When did ZBT think of that? And if he did, I believe that it is probaly the level of his martial art skills right? Also, when did ZBT thought so? Because hecause the span of LOCH and ROCH is over 30 years.

3) ZBT's use of it was significant enough for him to become from quite a level below HYS, to surpassing him.

But weren't you sort of doubting 9 Yin because ZBT isn't that much greater than the Greats when it improves automatically? That's something else.

[Noodles]

I don't know what you guys are arguing about regarding Yideng and Qiu Qian Ren but from chapter 31 it says:

他雖神智混亂，這几句話卻說得不錯，他的鐵掌功夫和一燈大師的一陽指各擅
胜場，當年本在武林齊名。一燈的佛學修為做他師父而有余，說到武功，要是出一

陽指全力周旋，或可胜得一招半式，掌上功夫卻有所不及，這般只挨打而不還手，

時候稍久，縱不送命，也必重傷。

Though his mind was in a state of confusion, these words were indeed correct. His [Iron Palm] and reverend Yi Deng’s [Solitary Yang Finger] both had their strong points in its own way. Years ago, their names stood side by side in the world of wulin. Reverend Yi Deng’s study in Buddhism was more than enough to be Ci En’s (Qiu Qian Ren) master but when it comes to martial arts, reverend Yi Deng would have to use his [Solitary Yang Finger] with all his might to maybe have a stance or half a stroke over Ci En, his martial arts with his palm could not compare with Ci En’s. If Yi Deng continues on taking these attacks without counterattacking, then if he doesn’t die then he will have a severe internal injury.

楊過和小龍女眼見慈恩的鐵掌有如斧鉞般一掌掌向一燈劈去，劈到第十四掌時，
一燈“哇”的一聲，一口鮮血噴了出來。

Yang Guo and Xiao Long Nuu watched on as Ci En’s [Iron Palms] hacked down on reverend Yi Deng like a hatchet. After the fourteenth palm, reverend Yi Deng threw up blood.

楊過見他接招的手法和耐力，知他武功決不在黑衣僧之下，但這般一昧挨打，
便是鐵石身軀終于也會毀了

From his hand movements and his resistance in taking the palms, Yang Guo could see that his (Yideng's) martial arts were not below that of the monk in black (Qiu Qian Ren) but just taking attacks like this would eventually destroy someone even if they had a body made of metal or stone.

[superboy]

Thinks for the translation noodles . Prove that Yi Deng and QQR is roughly equals.

[philip]

But weren't you sort of doubting 9 Yin because ZBT isn't that much greater than the Greats when it improves automatically? That's something else.

i'm sorry, i don't get quite what you are getting at. FIrst you believe that ZBT is should be significantly better than the other Greats, and now you think he isn't that much greater?

When did ZBT think of that? And if he did, I believe that it is probaly the level of his martial art skills right? Also, when did ZBT thought so? Because hecause the span of LOCH and ROCH is over 30 years.

ZBT stated that he was better than when he was younger rite before his duel w/ YG. also, you state taoist internal energy should improve faster the longer u train...and yet, you come to doubt ZBT's internal progression rate?

Just to explain why ZBT improve so fast in LOCH. He got really nothing to do in his cave for 15 years. I don't believe that ZBT stopped training, but as much as a geek he is, he still played around much more than he did in the island.

GJ had nothing to do on peach island either between LOCH and ROCH, did he? i mean, i doubt he took much time to displine GF.

Thinks for the translation noodles . Prove that Yi Deng and QQR is roughly equals.

1 deng being slighty better of course;p

[superboy]

i'm sorry, i don't get quite what you are getting at. FIrst you believe that ZBT is should be significantly better than the other Greats, and now you think he isn't that much greater?

I thought that ZBT is significantly better than the Greats to be able to beat them in a battle. So what contradictions did I made?

ZBT stated that he was better than when he was younger rite before his duel w/ YG. also, you state taoist internal energy should improve faster the longer u train...and yet, you come to doubt ZBT's internal progression rate?

In terms of martial arts skills, I have no doubts that ZBT improved. We also need to consider at what age ZBT was talking about at that time. And I don't think I doubted ZBT's progression did I? But it is true that your internal energy will not be what it use to be as your body started to fell on you. In terms of martial arts, I thought Yi Deng improved a lot from his youth, but his internal aren't off his maximum quality when his age caught up to him. And oh yeah, we don't even know how many of the Grteats study taoist inernal energy. For sure Yi Deng did with his TSG.

GJ had nothing to do on peach island either between LOCH and ROCH, did he? i mean, i doubt he took much time to displine GF.

GJ probably isn't that busy at the Island, but ZBT really had nothing to do at all other then spending his time in the cave. Gj never took much time to dicipline GF at the island, and I doubt he ever did in his life. A wonderful father. It's pretty easy to set how much time you want to train a day.

[philip]

Originally posted by superboy
I thought that ZBT is significantly better than the Greats to be able to beat them in a battle. So what contradictions did I made?


In terms of martial arts skills, I have no doubts that ZBT improved. We also need to consider at what age ZBT was talking about at that time. And I don't think I doubted ZBT's progression did I? But it is true that your internal energy will not be what it use to be as your body started to fell on you. In terms of martial arts, I thought Yi Deng improved a lot from his youth, but his internal aren't off his maximum quality when his age caught up to him. And oh yeah, we don't even know how many of the Grteats study taoist inernal energy. For sure Yi Deng did with his TSG.


GJ probably isn't that busy at the Island, but ZBT really had nothing to do at all other then spending his time in the cave. Gj never took much time to dicipline GF at the island, and I doubt he ever did in his life. A wonderful father. It's pretty easy to set how much time you want to train a day.

if ZBT was significantly greater than the Greats, then he is also significantly greater than GJ at the begining of ROCH, and his "improvement rate" (if it's proportional according to u) is also significantly greater than the Greats. Therefore, it's very unlikely that GJ>ZBT by the end of ROCH.

ZBT said that he is better than himself in his young age....he said that YG would beat him in his younger age, and yet, "ties" YG in his old age. so if you like to take YG thinking "GJ is the best" into count, then why wouldn't ZBT thinking "I'm better in my old age" into count, eh?

setting time to train aday is different from doing nothing but training. ZBt might like to play, but there is no reason why he would put aside his training...i mean, c'mon it's ZBT for god sakes

[superboy]

I don't really understand the logic. GJ at the start of ROCH tied with OYF. ZBT was significantly better than the Greats because he can be their equal even without using his L/R or 9 Yin technique. You can also argue that his Vacant Fist is perfect against cannons though. GJ at the start of ROCH is also captable of matching OYF without using his L/R technique. And alos, I think you might have miscalculated something> Why is it that it is unlikely that Gj will surpass ZBT by the end of ROCH. Lets pretend thatf GJ was still weaker than ZBT at the start of ROCH. But compare the gap between them from LOCH to the start of ROCH. It is definitely a smaller one. And I didn't say ZBT didn't improve, but his internal energy might not be of it's former quality, which my slow down his improvement.

[philip]

GJ at the start of ROCH is also captable of matching OYF without using his L/R technique. And alos, I think you might have miscalculated something> Why is it that it is unlikely that Gj will surpass ZBT by the end of ROCH. Lets pretend thatf GJ was still weaker than ZBT at the start of ROCH. But compare the gap between them from LOCH to the start of ROCH. It is definitely a smaller one. And I didn't say ZBT didn't improve, but his internal energy might not be of it's former quality, which my slow down his improvement.

it doesn't matter whether GJ used L/R agianst OYF...he wouldn't have win anywayz b/c it was a battle of internal energy and L/R does not double ur internal energy. IT's unlikely that GJ surpassed ZBt because ZBT himself improves at a much higher rate than the Greats (since he had much to catch up). To catch up w/ ZBT, GJ needs to improve at least twice as fast, which is highly unlikely, unless progression rates are not proportional.

also, internal energy should be more refined as age goes on, shouldn't it?

[superboy]

I don't really get how ZBT improve that much faster than the Greats after he was out of the island. If you do the math, GJ was roughly the level of ZBT by the time he was 33, so it is not possible that ZBT can be close to his improvement rate. And internal energy should be more refine as you get older, but maybe less power if we take what Yi Deng think. And philip, is the other forum down or something?

[ToOn99]

What made him improved faster than GJ was he had better understanding of 9Yin since he got more experience than GJ had.

[tape]

Originally posted by superboy
I don't really get how ZBT improve that much faster than the Greats after he was out of the island. If you do the math, GJ was roughly the level of ZBT by the time he was 33, so it is not possible that ZBT can be close to his improvement rate. And internal energy should be more refine as you get older, but maybe less power if we take what Yi Deng think. And philip, is the other forum down or something?

It's kind of using your own argument against you, since you've said many times that because he practices QZ and 9 Yin, that he would improve automatically and faster as he gets older. ZBT being a longer practitioner of QZ inner energy, being older, and having 9 Yin for just as long if not longer than GJ, should have a faster improvement rate.

However if you want to do the maths and compare how long it took for GJ to catch up to the other greats etc, then GJ should improve faster, which contradicts with the argument of faster as you grow older QZ energy. Also, YG would have a even faster improvement rate than GJ since he catches up with a more powerful ZBT at a younger age, which is another argument for YG.

[duguxiaojing]

Yeah u were right SB u said WITHOUT 1YZ 1deng lost badly my bad i thought u said with 1YZ. But then again your post makes it sound like 1deng fought all out with palm techs and lost which was not the case.

[duguxiaojing]

Prove that Yi Deng and QQR is roughly equals.

agreed 1deng is slightly stronger the way ZBT MAYBE SLIGHTLY stronger then the greats.

[superboy]

Originally posted by tape
It's kind of using your own argument against you, since you've said many times that because he practices QZ and 9 Yin, that he would improve automatically and faster as he gets older. ZBT being a longer practitioner of QZ inner energy, being older, and having 9 Yin for just as long if not longer than GJ, should have a faster improvement rate.

However if you want to do the maths and compare how long it took for GJ to catch up to the other greats etc, then GJ should improve faster, which contradicts with the argument of faster as you grow older QZ energy. Also, YG would have a even faster improvement rate than GJ since he catches up with a more powerful ZBT at a younger age, which is another argument for YG.

There is no contradiction here because ZBT had never actively practice 9 Yin. I also never claimed that 9 Yin will improve if you didn't practice. I do not know to much about that part. But I do know that Taoist methods improve faster as you age. So the bottom line is although ZBT knows 9 Yin, he had never practice it. Especially the internal energy part where he doesn't even know the untranslated part.

[superboy]

Originally posted by ToOn99
What made him improved faster than GJ was he had better understanding of 9Yin since he got more experience than GJ had.

Doesn't really matter since ZBT doesn't even practice 9 Yin.

[philip]

Originally posted by superboy
I don't really get how ZBT improve that much faster than the Greats after he was out of the island. If you do the math, GJ was roughly the level of ZBT by the time he was 33, so it is not possible that ZBT can be close to his improvement rate. And internal energy should be more refine as you get older, but maybe less power if we take what Yi Deng think. And philip, is the other forum down or something?

wait, according to ur logic, ZBT should be improving much faster than the greats seeing how he also had to catch up to them (i think ZBT is significantly weaker than HYS before he was captured to Peach ISland...or else he wouldn't be stuck there), and according to ur own logic, taoist internal energy progresses faster as age goes on, so ZBT should be significantly greater than the Greats by the begining of ROCH, and yet, now u claim that GJ is roughly equal to ZBT when he can only match OYF (who, by ur logic, should be significantly lower than ZBT)?

And ZBT did practice 9 yin whether he wanted to or not. he even used techniques from 9 yin against YG.

and if you make what 1 Deng "thinks" count into value, why don't u take what ZBT "thinks" as value, where him in his older age is better than him in his younger age?

OT: other forum changed adress...here it is:
WW

[superboy]

wait, according to ur logic, ZBT should be improving much faster than the greats seeing how he also had to catch up to them (i think ZBT is significantly weaker than HYS before he was captured to Peach ISland...or else he wouldn't be stuck there), and according to ur own logic, taoist internal energy progresses faster as age goes on, so ZBT should be significantly greater than the Greats by the begining of ROCH, and yet, now u claim that GJ is roughly equal to ZBT when he can only match OYF (who, by ur logic, should be significantly lower than ZBT)?

And ZBT did practice 9 yin whether he wanted to or not. he even used techniques from 9 yin against YG.

and if you make what 1 Deng "thinks" count into value, why don't u take what ZBT "thinks" as value, where him in his older age is better than him in his younger age?

I already said also that ZBT spent time doing nothing at the island, so he got a lot more time to train. Later on, I don't think he's that devoted anymore since he is just as ethusiastic about martial arts than training. So that is one possible way to think about it. And it's not just my logic, JY mentioned that QZ energy improves faster a couple of times as you practice for longer. Also, ZBT was significantly better than the Greats at the start of ROCH since GLFW also thought that he would lose to ZBT or something in one part before the 16 years. And I thought GJ and ZBT should be roughly equal, at least when he was 36-7 or so. He still haven't use his L/R techniques which can significantly increase your fighting ability. ZBT knows 9 Yin, but he never pracitce them anymore. And also, he never get to knew the parts that were not translated into chinese that time. And I took what Yi Deng think because I don't feel that it may neccesary hinder that much in terms of their level that much other than stamina. ZBT was not specific, but he believe that he was a better fighter. But Yi Deng also thought that his internal energy was not of his prime. But it does not neccesary means that your fighting ability is not what it is use to unless the fight last too long or that you count on using raw strength.

[ToOn99]

Originally posted by superboy
Doesn't really matter since ZBT doesn't even practice 9 Yin.

Actually, he learned it unpurposely.