The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by philip

YG also had pieces of 9 yin inside him

Those pieces weren't nearly enough. As I said in my previous post, the segment of the 9 Yum Jen Ging left in the Ancient Tomb compound by Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung lacked the all-important inner power cultivation chapter . . . which was originally written in Sanskrit.

Yeung Gor built his inner power levels to hellacious levels over the years, but I'm not convinced that by the end of ROCH, he had overtaken Gwok Jing.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
. . . which was originally written in Sanskrit.

That leads to a question: did WCY know how to read Sanskrit? That Sanskrit part was translated to GJ and HR by 1D, but I can't remember whether it was by 1D himself or with help from his brother the Indian Monk.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by rabadi
That leads to a question: did WCY know how to read Sanskrit? That Sanskrit part was translated to GJ and HR by 1D, but I can't remember whether it was by 1D himself or with help from his brother the Indian Monk.

That's a good question. As a highly educated man, it's possible that Wong Chung Yeung could read Sanskrit, but I honestly don't know if Jin Yong ever mentioned whether or not he did. 1 Deng was a Buddhist, and since all Buddhist scriptures originally came from India, it's not unlikely that he could read Sanskrit (although yes, he could certainly fall back on his Indian sect brother if he didn't).

[superboy]

I remember I read somewhere in the forum that WCY understanded the whole 9 Yin, which means he probably knows it.

[rabadi]

Do you think that when 1D translated the part to GJ and HR, he also *indirectly* learned and benefitted from 9 Yin?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by rabadi
Do you think that when 1D translated the part to GJ and HR, he also *indirectly* learned and benefitted from 9 Yin?

It's possible. I think 1 Deng's inner power also became more powerful between LOCH and ROCH, and the 9 Yum Jen Ging might have influenced that (don't know what JY actually said about that, however). I'm almost certain that the 9 Yum Jen Ging greatly improved Chow Bak Tung's martial arts, no matter how hard he tried to consciously block it out and not use it.

[superboy]

I think he did sort of practiced it to get his internal energy back. I am not really too sure how much 9 Yin Yi Deng train though. Even in ROCH, he stills seems to use TSG to power his 1YZ.

[QF]

hello

Significantly, the portion of the 9 Yum Jen Ging that Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl had access to did include the Yik Gun Deun Gwut Peen . . . the same skill that in LOCH had enabled North Beggar Hung 7 Gung to fully recover from the injuries he had received at the hands of West Poison Au Yeung Fung and fully rebuild his internal power.

No, No. YGDGP is a skill that improves your inner power. The part that enabled H7G to recover all his inner power is the sanskrit part.

[QF]

Interesting observation. Thought I'd share it with you guys.


Here, there are more Guo Jing Fans. In the other forums(namely taiwan) there are more Yang Gor fans. If you disrespect YG, the next day, those YG fans will reply with hatred!!

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by QF
Interesting observation. Thought I'd share it with you guys.


Here, there are more Guo Jing Fans. In the other forums(namely taiwan) there are more Yang Gor fans. If you disrespect YG, the next day, those YG fans will reply with hatred!!

Yeung Gor fans tend to be more emotional; Gwok Jing fans tend to be more reasonable.

Now here comes the part where a Yeung Gor fan claims that Yeung Gor was better than Gwok Jing because I'm a racist . . .

[rabadi]

Some probably adore the handsome actors who played YG

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by rabadi
Some probably adore the handsome actors who played YG

How does that explain Yeung Gor's GUY fans, however?

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
How does that explain Yeung Gor's GUY fans, however?

Uh... they want to be as handsome as actors who played YG? j/k

[Condor83]

Until we can read the passage in the book, it's hard to tell how KCY/QQR really loses.

I've read the passage in the book and it is not described in detail. It's in LOCH Ch. 38 and I'm using the second edition. Here's a synopsis:

ZBT receives a letter from WY. In the letter, she writes that Ying Gu and South Emperor have a deep grudge with KCY and if he (ZBT) kills KCY, they will no longer try to find him. However, if ZBT does not kill KCY, Ying Gu would seek him out no matter where he attempts to hide. Thus, ZBT decides to go to Iron Palm Peak. His reason was that KCY was a traitor who conspired with the Jin, but more importantly, he never wants to see or even hear about Ying Gu.

After ZBT arrives at Iron Palm Peak, he duels with KCY. Initially, they fight to a standstill, but once ZBT uses L/R Hand, the victor is decided. However, unlike most fights, ZBT does not stop even though he is the clear winner and he chases KCY. He runs away and battles a bit with ZBT, then runs again and battles some more. ZBT's martial arts is clearly superior, but it would still not be easy for him to kill KCY. (End of synopsis)

Could be QQR/KCY is inferior technique-wise or he could like GWMlv10 during the battle with 1Deng, has a little mental instability. <shrugs>

Neither of these statements appear to be true. KCY's Iron Palms have more stances and perhaps more ingenuity than the rather straightforward HL18P. They are two very evenly matched techniques. The difference is whether KCY mastered the palms to the level of ultimate proficiency. I think he was quite close to doing so otherwise why would GJ think he was already a match for the other Greats by the end of LOCH? Second, what instability could he possibly have had? Did KCY get sand in his eyes from practicing his palms or something? The fight took place on his home turf and with his own henchmen around so he should have a mental edge if anything. It's quite safe to assume that ZBT had to go through some Iron Palm sect minions to get to KCY since you don't just waltz in and immediately get a chance to kill the sect leader.

Anonymous, I don't think it matters so much that the battle is not recounted blow-by-blow because it's clear that KCY cannot defeat ZBT. KCY while on the run commented that a sect leader like himself has been reduced to running away. Still, KCY is far from the weakling that Sek Kin portrayed him to be in LOCH '82 as evidenced by the comment that it would not be easy to finish the job, i.e. killing KCY. However, I think ZBT can do it faster than the the other Greats. Fast forward to just before Wah San Lun Gim II, KCY attacks Ying Gu with one of the "juet chiu" from Iron Palms and ZBT neutralizes it kung-fu he doesn't even actively practice, 9 Yum Jun Ging Vol. One. ZBT broke the palm and didn't even bother to attack afterwards. If he did and continues with 9Y, the chances of killing KCY improve greatly I think. I think this is a testament to how good 9Y is.

[Arching_Hero]

Originally posted by rabadi
Yup. It was already posted in another thread (sorry, too lazy to find it and to link it here) that YG had NO access to FULL 9 Yin. So Anonymous, thanks, but no thanks. I still voted for GJ

Ya.
Guo Jing = Quan Jen inner power
= Full version of 9Yin inner power cultivation.

Yang Guo = Jade Haerts inner power.
= Gallbladders.

So, GJ's inner power > YG's.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Arching_Hero

Yang Guo = Jade Haerts inner power.
= Gallbladders.

Yeung Gor also had three or four years of sleeping on the Icy Bed to help his inner power growth too, but I don't believe Lam Chiu Ying's story (that her followers repeated after her) that sleeping on it for a year will enable you to obtain ten years' worth of inner power cultivation. First, Lam Chiu Ying was known to be an inveterate liar. Second, if what was said about the Icy Bed were true, Yeung Gor would have been equal to the Greats in inner power by the time he was 16 years old and Little Dragon Girl would have had DGSD-level inner power. That not being the case, the Icy Bed likely does have some inner power enhancing properties, but not nearly to the extent that Lam Chiu Ying (and later, Little Dragon Girl) claimed.

[Anonymous]

More support that YG "did" learn a bit of the 9Yin innerPower portion as well as gaining more bits of 9Yin:

He retreated to deep into the mountain and built a thatch hut, he didn’t leave it for three years, studying a way to break the skills of the [Jade Heart Manual], although there were a few successes, he wasn’t able to develop a complete [innerPower and techniques] set of skills to counter it. He was down heartened, and respected Lin Chao Ying’s intelligence even more, he admitted defeat and stopped researching.
[...]
His martial arts at that time was the world’s greatest, the skills in the [Nine Yin Manual] were all profound and refined, after a glance and pondering for ten days, he understood [the essence of 9Yin], he laughed out loud to the sky, and returned to the tomb, and left the main aspects of the [Nine Yin Manual] on the ceiling in the most hidden room in the tomb, and the stances that would defeat the [Jade Heart Manual’s]. (Aside: recall that WCY "cannot" develop a "complete system" to defeat JadeHeartManual, and now he "could."
[...]
As a result of this conversation, the two lived in the valley for over another year. The two went back into the tomb via the secret passage, and learnt the text of the [Nine Yin Manual]. When they were sure they remembered every single word, they left and practised outside. Within the year, the two’s internal and external skills improved in every aspect. But the markings that was left in the tomb by Wong Chong Yang were only parts which could defeat the [Jade Heart Manual] and consisted only a small part of the [Nine Yin Manual], comparing with what they know and what Guo Jing and Huang Rong knew, it was much inferior, but now, they weren’t the only two that knew it.
[...]
Even since the second mount Wah competition, Hong Qi Gong has not seen Ou Yang Feng for over then years. Although Ou Yang Feng’s mind was unclear, he practised the [Contrary Nine Yin Manual], the more he practised the stranger his kung fu became, the stranger it became the more powerful he became.
Guo Jing and Huang Rong had recited a small portion of the manual to Hong Qi Gong, it made an impression on his kung fu and made great progress in his martial arts. The final stage ["final stage"] of the [Nine Yin Manual] is superior to the [Contrary Nine Yin Manual], although Hong Qi Gong only knew a little, he wasn’t inferior to Ou Yang Feng.
[...]
After tens of stances later, Yang Guo saw that the two’s incomparable swift and powerful attacks were turned from danger into safety, he [YG] soon forgot about the safety of the two and concentrated on watching the mastery kung fu that was on display. The [Nine Yin Manual] is at the peak of the world’s martial arts, he only knew odd fragments of it, now he saw the two use the theories of the manual with their stances he couldn’t stop himself from being shocked and surprised, he thought, “So even an ordinary sentence of the manual has so many ways to express it.”

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Super: Man, many are like me not reading the rules . The reasons they used from adaptations are wasting my finger strength just to tell them that it's incorrect.

--- Actually, I based mine mainly on the novel; however, if I use ROCH83,etc I'll/We'll ("should") indicate it. Besides, your finger strength really helps clarify "gaps" in LOCH/ROCH translations.
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Super: GLFW was the Imperial priest and needed to lead lamaist followers in the entire empire. How much times can being a father be, since I don't believe he's the motherly type.

--- GWM got his followers and his status [command] for help and GJ got his wife and followers for help; however, GJ "need" to teach things himself. The PeachBlossom scene [near beginning of ROCH] where he taught his own pupils [Wu brothers and his daughter], and later, especially Guo Polo. And, GJ and HR are the only one's "really" overseeing the XiangYang army, the general is um ... whatever.
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Super: Yes, they were close, but we can see in Mongolia camp that there were already a gap between GLFW and GJ. GJ was supperior. And how can I prove that? Because an unarmed GJ was able to fend GLFW(with his wheels), Xiaoxiangzi, (poison staff), Nimoxing (metal snake), Yin Kexi (jewel whip) quite well.

--- Ya getting desperate. We all know GJ will "die" [JY stated] if not for those Champion [Mongol] morons doing their competition against each other.
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Super: Two times Yang Guo thought that Guo Jing was peerless, the first time when he saw the two idiotic Wu brothers fighting each other. The second time he returned to Xiangyang after Guo Fu hacked off his arm, he thought about revenge. In his thoughts he said that:"Uncle Guo's 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms were likely to be invicible in the world."
By the way, Yang Guo never thought himself to be number 1 after learning the heavy sword skill of Dugu.

So now in the new version, YG no longer thought that he's invincible with his Iron Sword. Can you see that JY was trying to say something? A couple of years back, GJ was just as good as OYF, but know YG after meeting all the powerful martial arts master has said GJ was the best.

This means that GJ was the best even before the 16 years. Hey, you first have to say why YG's speculation is less reliable than your's first.

--- The phrase "In his thoughts he said that: Uncle Guo's 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms were likely to be invicible in the world." First, the key is "were likely," meaning an uncertainty versus "is." Second, he's "talking to himself" and not comparing to other greats. During that time, YG lucked out on beating GWM (even with the Dog-BeatingStick near ChingYing's forest; I mean, a rock suddenly hit GWM: cheesy), so YG has no respect for GWM. He just has more respect for GJ and even with the IronSword, we did say he was "not" a great. As for the your comment "So now in the new version, YG no longer thought that he's invincible with his Iron Sword," you are basing this "prior" his fight with GWM, and YG still "say" he is invincible afterward.
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Super: And during the fight od Yi Deng and QQR in ROCH, Yi Deng lost badly without relying on his 1YZ. And it was said that if Yi Deng used the combination of TXG and 1YZ, then he "might" be able to defeat QQR after a long battle.

--- Can any experts translation the 1Deng versus QQR scene in ROCH, where YG showed his IronSword/IronMan prowess vs. QQR?
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Ken: Significantly, the portion of the 9 Yum Jen Ging that Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl had access to did include the Yik Gun Deun Gwut Peen . . . the same skill that in LOCH had enabled North Beggar Hung 7 Gung to fully recover from the injuries he had received at the hands of West Poison Au Yeung Fung and fully rebuild his internal power. Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl did *not*, however, have access to the portion of the 9 Yum Jen Ging that Wong Seung had written in Sanskrit (the portion that South Emperor 1 Deng the Monk translated into Chinese script for Gwok Jing in LOCH).

--- How did you know (or any experts) that it was "Yik Gun ...." that YG/XLN learned? And does Wang Chong Yang "know" Sanskrit? [since WongSeung (non-Indian)wrote that in Sanskrit. WCY travelled with LinChuYing. He fought a war. And WCY is a taoist and a "good" guy; fitting the requirements that WongSeung wanted.]
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Ken: It's possible. I think 1 Deng's inner power also became more powerful between LOCH and ROCH, and the 9 Yum Jen Ging might have influenced that (don't know what JY actually said about that, however). I'm almost certain that the 9 Yum Jen Ging greatly improved Chow Bak Tung's martial arts, no matter how hard he tried to consciously block it out and not use it.

--- And 1Deng ~= GWM ~= YG ~= ZBT ~= HYS.
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c83: Fast forward to just before Wah San Lun Gim II, KCY attacks Ying Gu with one of the "juet chiu" from Iron Palms and ZBT neutralizes it kung-fu he doesn't even actively practice, 9 Yum Jun Ging Vol. One. ZBT broke the palm and didn't even bother to attack afterwards. If he did and continues with 9Y, the chances of killing KCY improve greatly I think. I think this is a testament to how good 9Y is.

--- Thx c83. Actually, testament of how great 9Yin "was in LOCH." [not belittling you, just "(JamesBond) standard procedure" counter-argument. ] It's significant but minor because it delves too far into the past. Besides, ZBT "ties" with YG in ROCH. However, can you summarize how ZBT at the end of ROCH says that GJ is "better" than him? especially the events the leads up to his statement.
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--- Since you have the book, can you/(and any experts) tell me the age of GJ and GWM during the Hero'sFeast. the age of YG and GWM during the QZ palace fight? and the timespan to the beginning of the separation? Here's my plan:
1) I'll use Superboy's formula. assume innerPower=100 during hero'sFeast. 100/GJ_Age = GJ_rate, 100/GWM_Age = GWM_rate. Probably twice, not sure.
2) Then I'll try to calculate YG_innerPower using GWM_innerPower during QZ Palace and then calculate YG_rate. Recall 1 year in the 16year separation YG_innerPower ~= GWM_innerPower.
3) GWM_innerPower_At_Hero'sFeast + GJ_rate x (16 + yearsToStart_16YearSeparation) -----COMPARES--TO--------
GWM_innerPower_At_QZ_Palace + YG_rate x 15. Something like this to get an idea. I just got by in Calculus, so not a mathematics expert.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by -NSX-
YG can defeat GJ because...

Keep it clean, -NSX-..

[Arching_Hero]

Originally posted by -NSX-
YG can defeat GJ because at the end of the fight, he will realize that sadness is the key to his palms and will release a deadly one up GJ's A-hole.

Ya, but dont forget that GJ also know HL18Z. Guo Jing's HL18Z has reach a level where he can turn the palm stances from hard to soft and back to hard. He can also use L/R technicque with Kong Ming 72 Fist I'm sure it;s GJ who will release a deadly one up YG. hehe

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Arching_Hero
who will release a deadly one up

Everybody.