Kiu Fung, Hui Juk, and Deun Yu vs. the Janitor Monk: do the brothers stand a chance?

[Ken Cheng]

I'm surprised that this subject doesn't come up more often.

The nameless Shaolin Janitor Monk (AKA the "Sweeper Monk") from DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS is generally acknowledged as, by far, the greatest fighter in the entire Jin Yong canon. He was truly a fighter without rival, but could the DGSD trio of brothers, Kiu Fung, Hui Juk, and Deun Yu, have beaten him . . . or at least given him a reasonably good fight?

The most direct measure of the Janitor Monk's superiority was the ease with which he dispensed Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok, two fighters generally regarded as being in the same category as Kiu Fung. The Janitor Monk defeated them both quite casually, but there are a few considerations here.

1. Neither Siu Yeun San nor Mo Yung Bok were prepared for the Janitor Monk's intervention. They had never even imagined such a fighter existed, so naturally, their guard against his intervention was nonexistent. At the time the Janitor Monk intevened, Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok's attention and energy were focused exclusively on each other.

2. Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok had been fighting for quite some time before the Janitor Monk intervened. They were likely both exhausted, and neither is likely to have put up his best resistance against the Janitor Monk (not that they could have beaten him, but perhaps their showing against him would have been less pathetic if they had both been 100% when they faced him).

3. Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok were old men, past their prime (the Janitor Monk was even older, but he was far superior to them in martial arts regardless). Younger men of equal skill and ability (i.e. Kiu Fung) might have fared better.

Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok, in terms of raw power and skill, could be thought of as equivalent to two Kiu Fungs. However, neither fighter, though generally in Kiu Fung's class in terms of skill and inner power, had quite the same ferocity and unique fighter's instinct that was Kiu Fung's alone (not even Siu Yeun San, Kiu Fung's biological father, had this instinct to the extent his son did). Moreover, even the combined inner power of Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok would not equal that of Hui Juk, who had the combined inner power of the Siu Yiu Sect's three most powerful elders. Hui Juk's inner power was likely second only to the Janitor Monk's (although it's difficult to measure how great the gap between them was). On top of Kiu Fung's prowess and Hui Juk's hellacious inner power, there is Deun Yu's 6 Mak Divine Swords....considered by some to be the most dangerous martial art of all. Deun Yu also had the Bak Ming Sun Gung skill of inner power absorption. In light of all these factors, could the team of Kiu Fung, Hui Juk, and Deun Yu, knowing what to expect and fully prepared for a showdown against the Janitor Monk, actually have a chance of beating him? If not, could they at least give him a reasonably good fight?

[ToOn99]

I think they could win. Perhaps, Duan Yu could launch his long-range attack using 6MSJ. Xu Zhu with his 100+ years internal energy would be in charge of defence. And Xiao Feng could wait the opportunity to attack Janitor Monk with his 28 Dragon palm when Janitor Monk a bit off guard due to continous attacks of Duan Yu using 6MSJ.

[dgfds01]

It would be a tough fight. In the end, I think the 3 brothers will win.

[Candide]

Copy n paste from the other forum

> 1. Neither Siu Yeun San nor Mo Yung Bok were prepared
> for the Janitor Monk's intervention. They had never
> even imagined such a fighter existed, so naturally,
> their guard against his intervention was nonexistent.
> At the time the Janitor Monk intevened, Siu Yeun San
> and Mo Yung Bok's attention and energy were focused
> exclusively on each other.

Err they were both prepared very well. Murong Bo used two "perfect" defensive stances that made everyone in the room go "wow" but he was still killed.

XYS saw what's coming and knew that he couldn't do any better than MRB so he didn't bother to fight back. XF tried to intervene but XYS was still killed anyway.

> 2. Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok had been fighting for
> quite some time before the Janitor Monk intervened.
> They were likely both exhausted, and neither is likely
> to have put up his best resistance against the Janitor
> Monk (not that they could have beaten him, but perhaps
> their showing against him would have been less
> pathetic if they had both been 100% when they faced
> him).

No, the opposite. They hadn't fought for a while until then.

> 3. Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok were old men, past
> their prime (the Janitor Monk was even older, but he
> was far superior to them in martial arts regardless).
> Younger men of equal skill and ability (i.e. Kiu Fung)
> might have fared better.

You're right, but they weren't that far from their prime (they were in their late 50s or early 60s) so depending on their types of martial arts, you can even argue that they were at their prime.

I think at their best they could defeat the JM. The JM could be injured, based on what XF managed to do to him. But then, the JM probably didn't even use half of his power in DGSD , for all we know.

[CC]

3 moves.

MRB took a defensive stance which XF and XYS thought was unbreakable. But he got killed in 1 move. Thats insane.

And if I was Xu Zhu or Xiao Feng, I would NOT want DY to be using his 6MSJ when I am fighting close in.

[Dirt]

Is this a real question?

Both Xiao Yuan Shan and Murong Bo were said to be equals of Xiao Feng. If those two were taken out so easily, what makes you guys think that Xu Zhu and Duan Yu even stand a chance?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Dirt
Is this a real question?

Both Xiao Yuan Shan and Murong Bo were said to be equals of Xiao Feng. If those two were taken out so easily, what makes you guys think that Xu Zhu and Duan Yu even stand a chance?

The Janitor Monk's primary advantage was tremendous inner power . . . far more than Kiu Fung, Siu Yeun San, or Mo Yung Bok could match. Hui Juk and Deun Yu, however, each possessed more inner power than any of those three warriors. The addition of their inner power to Kiu Fung's warrior skill might just tip the balance in their favor a bit ... at least enough to give the Janitor Monk a worthwhile struggle.

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
The Janitor Monk's primary advantage was tremendous inner power . . . far more than Kiu Fung, Siu Yeun San, or Mo Yung Bok could match. Hui Juk and Deun Yu, however, each possessed more inner power than any of those three warriors. The addition of their inner power to Kiu Fung's warrior skill might just tip the balance in their favor a bit ... at least enough to give the Janitor Monk a worthwhile struggle.

Duan Yu's defense couldn't be better than Murong Bo's, he'd be taken out faster by Janitor Monk. That just leaves Xiao Feng and Xu Zhu. Let's say taking out Duan Yu allowed Xu Zhu and Xiao Feng to get in a hit on Janitor Monk each, Janitor Monk has proven he's able to take a direct hit from Xiao Feng; if he was defending, I'm sure he'd be able to take the hits from XF and XZ. Let's say XF+XZ > MRB+XYS. That means it will take what? 3 moves instead of 2?

Janitor Monk takes it in 4 moves.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I don't know. I don't think it's -possible- for Sweeper Monk to be even NEAR Xu Zhu's internal energy. Think of it like this.

JMZ=XF, internal energy-wise.
JMZ=20-30 years of XWXG.
XZ=150-200 years of XWXG and BMSG.

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Ren Wo Xing
I don't know. I don't think it's -possible- for Sweeper Monk to be even NEAR Xu Zhu's internal energy. Think of it like this.

JMZ=XF, internal energy-wise.
JMZ=20-30 years of XWXG.
XZ=150-200 years of XWXG and BMSG.

YTZ almost=XF, internal energy-wise.
YTZ=almost 1 year of YJJ.
SM/JM=50-60 years of Shaolin internal energy training (such as YJJ).

[Dirt]

Besides which, Xu Zhu may have 150-200 years worth of internal energy, but, he didn't know how to use it to maximum effect. Just like ZWJ had internal strength equal to ZSF, yet, he couldn't use it effectively until he learned QKDNY.

[PJ]

Originally posted by Dirt
YTZ almost=XF, internal energy-wise.
YTZ=almost 1 year of YJJ.
SM/JM=50-60 years of Shaolin internal energy training (such as YJJ).

As far as I know, there is no evidence Sweeper Monk learned YJJ.

Even Xiao Feng = 20+ years of Shaolin internal energy training, and he only <= YTZ.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Originally posted by Dirt
Besides which, Xu Zhu may have 150-200 years worth of internal energy, but, he didn't know how to use it to maximum effect. Just like ZWJ had internal strength equal to ZSF, yet, he couldn't use it effectively until he learned QKDNY.

Sure he did. We ARE going by the end of the novel, right?

And btw, YTZ+YJJ+Iceworm=XF. YTZ+YJJ=Who knows?

[Dirt]

Originally posted by PJ
As far as I know, there is no evidence Sweeper Monk learned YJJ.

Even Xiao Feng = 20+ years of Shaolin internal energy training, and he only <= YTZ.

Xiao Feng didn't have access to the great martial arts of Shaolin Temple, Sweeper Monk did.

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Ren Wo Xing
Sure he did. We ARE going by the end of the novel, right?

And btw, YTZ+YJJ+Iceworm=XF. YTZ+YJJ=Who knows?

I thought we were going by the timeframe where XF, MRB, XYS and all met SM.

[Temujin]

It's too hard to judge just by using the facts from the novel, there's not much revealed about the origins of Sweeper Monk's martial arts. So, I think we have use some speculations here.

If MRB's perfect defensive stances can be easily defeated by SP, and XYS is equal to MRB, then obviously SP >>>>>> MRB+XYS

Now if MRB=XYS=XF (perhaps with a slight advantage to XF since even SP praised his HL18Z), but still 3 XFs will not equal SP.
SP >>>>> MRB+XYS+XF

Now let's compare XF with DY and XZ. (on internal energy alone since this is the main advantage SP has, which makes him invulnerable and powerful)

DY has JMZ's internal energy + others ... while XF is about equal to JMZ. So at most DY's inner power is probably 2x XF at the end.

DY = 2XF. DY is also able to control his 6MSJ better at the end of the novel.

XZ has 150-200 something internal energy from the 3 XY Pai elders, which he couldn't use 100%. But let's say for an argument sake, he can utilize about 180 years of inner energy.

XF is about 30, so ... XZ = 6XF in internal energy.

So we have XF + DY (equal to 2XF) + XZ (equal to 6XF), so... we have about 9 XF.

Can the Sweeper Monk take this ?

I say if they work out somekind of formation, where XF can unleash his HL18Z effectively and Duan Yu shooting his 6MSJ, while XZ can take some defensive stance for the both of them, (Don't forget in the third edition of DGSD, XF is supposed to teach XZ the HL28Z before he died, imagine XZ doing HL28Z with 180 years of inner power)... they can give SP quite a fight but the result depends on how they can coordinate their attack, supporting one another, just like the big dipper formation, when 7 fighters is equal to a Great. But if one of them is hit then that's the end of them.

It's like having a Super powerful tank with a huge multiple missile launcher on the side and a super fast machine gun (like Phallanx) going against a big giant destroyer robot with strong armor and powerful guns and missiles.

[SkineePanda]

Is there a translation excerpt of the Sweeper monk's appearance and fight?

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Temujin
It's too hard to judge just by using the facts from the novel, there's not much revealed about the origins of Sweeper Monk's martial arts. So, I think we have use some speculations here.

If MRB's perfect defensive stances can be easily defeated by SP, and XYS is equal to MRB, then obviously SP >>>>>> MRB+XYS

Now if MRB=XYS=XF (perhaps with a slight advantage to XF since even SP praised his HL18Z), but still 3 XFs will not equal SP.
SP >>>>> MRB+XYS+XF

Now let's compare XF with DY and XZ. (on internal energy alone since this is the main advantage SP has, which makes him invulnerable and powerful)

DY has JMZ's internal energy + others ... while XF is about equal to JMZ. So at most DY's inner power is probably 2x XF at the end.

DY = 2XF. DY is also able to control his 6MSJ better at the end of the novel.

XZ has 150-200 something internal energy from the 3 XY Pai elders, which he couldn't use 100%. But let's say for an argument sake, he can utilize about 180 years of inner energy.

XF is about 30, so ... XZ = 6XF in internal energy.

So we have XF + DY (equal to 2XF) + XZ (equal to 6XF), so... we have about 9 XF.

Can the Sweeper Monk take this ?

I say if they work out somekind of formation, where XF can unleash his HL18Z effectively and Duan Yu shooting his 6MSJ, while XZ can take some defensive stance for the both of them, (Don't forget in the third edition of DGSD, XF is supposed to teach XZ the HL28Z before he died, imagine XZ doing HL28Z with 180 years of inner power)... they can give SP quite a fight but the result depends on how they can coordinate their attack, supporting one another, just like the big dipper formation, when 7 fighters is equal to a Great. But if one of them is hit then that's the end of them.

It's like having a Super powerful tank with a huge multiple missile launcher on the side and a super fast machine gun (like Phallanx) going against a big giant destroyer robot with strong armor and powerful guns and missiles.

Much of this assumes that the Xiao Yao Pai elders developed their energies at the same rate as everyone else.

[Temujin]

Originally posted by Dirt
Much of this assumes that the Xiao Yao Pai elders developed their energies at the same rate as everyone else.

Well yeah, I have to admit that I had to use a lot of speculation, since we don't know the true origin of SP's martial arts and actual inner power level.

[Temujin]

My gut feeling is still saying that no matter how good the formation of the 3 sworn brothers is, the best they can do is probably lasting several hundred stances by applying the hit and run strategy or somekind of formation to confuse SP.

DY should try to touch him at the right spot and suck him dry bit by bit, by the hit and run technique and confuse the heck out of him, while XZ and XF protect him. If only DY could move fast enough and XZ's maximum outburst of 150-200 inner power strikes are effective. XZ probably could take him on for several strokes while DY and XZ hit him with 6MSJ and HL28Z to distract and catch him off guard .... somewhat weaken him bit by bit.

SP himself MIGHT be strong enough to take 6MSJ or any of XZ's techniques head on, and the way he moves, he can probably dodge all offensive strikes thrown at him by the 3 sworn brothers.

Again, if any of the three sworn brothers get hit, that's end of them !! I know... this is too much of a WILD SPECULATION