The ROCH Heroes' Conference *with* the Greats

[superboy]

And usually if their internal power are to far behind, they die.

[Dirt]

If the Greats were there, it wouldn't have been a heroes' conference, it would have been a Hua Shan Luan Jian part 3.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Dirt
If the Greats were there, it wouldn't have been a heroes' conference, it would have been a Hua Shan Luan Jian part 3.

True, as they were competing, after all, to determine who had the best martial arts and who should serve as the Leader of the Martial World.

Of course, they would have to rename the event the Dai Sing Kwan Sword Tournament.

[rabadi]

Anybody knows why it was named Hua Shan Luan Jian, which if I'm not mistaken translates into Hua Shan Sword Tournament, in the first place? Other than WCY... okay, perhaps other than WCY and HYS (if you can accept his flute skill as a sword skill), no one else of the original Greats used sword.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by rabadi
Anybody knows why it was named Hua Shan Luan Jian, which if I'm not mistaken translates into Hua Shan Sword Tournament, in the first place? Other than WCY... okay, perhaps other than WCY and HYS (if you can accept his flute skill as a sword skill), no one else of the original Greats used sword.

I think they actually did use swords at the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament.

[rabadi]

So that means H7Q, OYF, and 1D knew some sword techniques? It's quite strange though if they did use swords, 'cause we know their signature martial arts are not sword techniques.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by rabadi
So that means H7Q, OYF, and 1D knew some sword techniques? It's quite strange though if they did use swords, 'cause we know their signature martial arts are not sword techniques.

They each had weapons skills, and at their advanced martial arts level, it probably didn't matter too much what the specific weapon was. That being said, I think Wong Yerk See was the best traditional swordsman of them all.

[Candide]

WCY was far better with the sword than any other Great. Remember how good the Quanzhen masters were with Quanzhen sword art ? Next would be HYS. OYF and HQG realised that they could never match these two in sword art so they concentrated on other weapons instead.

It was "Hua San Luan Jian" mostly because the sword was considered the ultimate weapon, I think. In that tournament, the Greats showed off every skill they had, not just sword.

By the way Candide, Ken mentioned you in a previous post about 9 Yum Jun Ging. He mentioned that you think 9Y Divine Claw is not a stand-alone move and thus was not as powerful as HL18P. Is there a genuine stand-alone technique in 9Y that could rival the Greats' top skills?

I never said that it wasn't a stand-alone move, but as a stand-alone move, it's not as powerful as any of the Great's top skills. There are a lot of powerful ones in 9 Yin but I don't think any of them can rival the Greats' top ones. For instance, Guo Jing read through all of them and although he occasionally used some techniques, he mostly concentrated on the inner power part and used it to power his Dragon Palms.

The techniques in 9 Yin are better used together as they are all weird and unpredictable. Using any of them as a stand-alone move wouldn't be very effective, as most weird and unpredictable moves are usually not very powerful. Look at OYF for example. His techniques were mostly weird, but his most powerful one, Ha Mo Gong, was a very straight-forward one.

Maybe I was exaggerating a bit about the Greats killing DYB or HD in 3 moves, but it might be highly likely. DYB or HD was probably around OYK or the weaker ones in the 7 Quanzhen masters (since the Scholar was kicking HD's arse and the Fisherman was about equal to DYB). HQG in LOCH could attack and injure or even kill OYK easily in one or two moves, and they were just his playful moves, not even serious ones (remember when HQG taught GJ the last 3 Dragon Palms as he was fighting OYK). After GJ learnt the L/R technique and a bit of 9 Yin, OYK couldn't even take one move from him. GJ was then able to beat the Scholar, the Fisherman, the Farmer and the Lumberjack on his own.

Based on that, DYB and HD wouldn't be much troubles for a Great. Maybe 3 simple moves wouldn't cut it, but let's say HQG decided to Dragon-Palmed them with 100% power...

[sixdays]

The techniques in 9 Yin are better used together as they are all weird and unpredictable. Using any of them as a stand-alone move wouldn't be very effective, as most weird and unpredictable moves are usually not very powerful. Look at OYF for example. His techniques were mostly weird, but his most powerful one, Ha Mo Gong, was a very straight-forward one.

and that little jerk YG has to just interrupt the theory by making his unpredictable sadpalms kungfu at least as powerful as HL18Z.

[CC]

I do think a Great could KO Huo Du in 3 moves or less. The gap between the Greats and nearly everyone else in ROCH/LOCH was pretty massive.

[ChronoReverse]

Easily in fact. Remember the part where YG (great level by now) and HYS were using the Mongol Warriors (the ones competing to kill GJ much earlier) as _balls_ flinging them around. They might not be that strong, but they aren't wimps either.

[someone just translated this so I bring it up ]

The Greats really were that great.

[Ken Cheng]

You know, since the rules of the contest didn't *specifically* say that each side had to call up three different challengers, I wonder why the Chinese didn't send Gwok Jing against the Golden Wheel Monk, Fok Do, and Dat Yee Ba. Gwok Jing would defeat Fok Do and Dat Yee Bat easily, and his chances against the Golden Wheel Monk were about 50/50. Moreover, after defeating Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba, the competition would be over and there would be no need to square off against the Golden Wheel Monk at all.

[minutemanwayne]

Originally posted by ChronoReverse
Easily in fact. Remember the part where YG (great level by now) and HYS were using the Mongol Warriors (the ones competing to kill GJ much earlier) as _balls_ flinging them around. They might not be that strong, but they aren't wimps either.

[someone just translated this so I bring it up ]

The Greats really were that great.

Agree

Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi were each more powerful than Da Er Ba and Huo Du. And yet Xiaoxiang Zi, Yin Kexi and the black-faced warrior were totally submissive under Yang Guo's powerful palm energy. Their bodies would of been crushed like insects if Yang Guo had even the slightest intention of killing them.

[CC]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
You know, since the rules of the contest didn't *specifically* say that each side had to call up three different challengers, I wonder why the Chinese didn't send Gwok Jing against the Golden Wheel Monk, Fok Do, and Dat Yee Ba. Gwok Jing would defeat Fok Do and Dat Yee Bat easily, and his chances against the Golden Wheel Monk were about 50/50. Moreover, after defeating Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba, the competition would be over and there would be no need to square off against the Golden Wheel Monk at all.

Thats because using that logic, you can also have GWM fighting the Scholar and Priest and winning 2-0 as well.....

[Ken Cheng]

In RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES, the Chinese wulin fighters were in a bit of a quandary because they had to defeat the Golden Wheel Monk and his two apprentices, Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba, in a best-of-three match. The Chinese warriors were uncertain how to play their hand. Only Gwok Jing had a chance (but it was only 50/50) of defeating the Golden Wheel Monk, but they weren't sure whom to field against Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba.

What if, however, a second Great were on hand for the Chinese wulin (say, for example, that North Beggar Hung 7 Gung were still alive and present...or East Heretic Wong Yerk See, South Emperor 1 Deng, Chow Bak Tung, or Kau Cheen Yan). In that case, it should be a cinch to defeat either Fok Do or Dat Yee Ba. But if the Mongols field the Golden Wheel Monk in the second round (assuming that the Chinese win the first round, which they probably should), do you send one of the senior Greats or Gwok Jing against the Golden Wheel Monk to seal the second round victory? Remember: if the Chinese lose round two, it's 1-1...and the third round will decide the winner. The Chinese have only two Greats to field, which means none for round three.

Would it be better to send a senior Great against Fok Do/Dat Yee Ba in round 1, or send Gwok Jing against the apprentices and leave the Golden Wheel Monk for a senior Great? What would you do?

[wkeej]

hmm, it is game strategy which we always encounter in sports.
actually, the scenario you give is straightforward. since golden wheel is coming out in round 2, it depends of the skill levels of other greats. if other greats are better than gj, then we will field them in round 2. hence, in round 1, gj wins. in round 2, other greats win. if skills levels of gj is better, then we will field gj in round 2. in other words, gj has to win no matter how.

the situation will of course be very different if we do not know when golden wheel will be fielded.

[Ken Cheng]

hmm, it is game strategy which we always encounter in sports.
actually, the scenario you give is straightforward. since golden wheel is coming out in round 2, it depends of the skill levels of other greats. if other greats are better than gj, then we will field them in round 2. hence, in round 1, gj wins. in round 2, other greats win. if skills levels of gj is better, then we will field gj in round 2. in other words, gj has to win no matter how.

That's just it, though. At the time of the Heroes' Conference, we don't know for sure that Gwok Jing was better than the senior Greats (or vice-versa).

the situation will of course be very different if we do not know when golden wheel will be fielded.

If the Mongols are to have any chance at all, they need to field the Golden Wheel Monk second. If the Golden Wheel Monk goes first, then the Chinese can just sacrifice a weak fighter to him and beat up on Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba with Gwok Jing and a Great in rounds 2 and 3. If the Golden Wheel Monk goes last...well, he might never get a chance to fight at all because Gwok Jing and a Great would have trashed Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba in rounds 1 and 2.

The Mongols can only win by sacrificing Dat Yee Ba or Fok Do in round 1 (hoping that the Chinese will field a Great against him), having the Golden Wheel Monk win round 2 (tall order because he will certainly be fighting either Gwok Jing or a senior Great), and then field the remaining apprentice against a weaker Chinese fighter.

The pressure is on the Mongols, naturally (two Greats-level fighters for the Chinese compared to just one for the Mongols), but if the Chinese play their cards wrong, they can still lose. The Chinese *must* win the Golden Wheel Monk round, but I don't know if their chances would be better with Gwok Jing or a senior Great. The seniors have the advantage of greater experience; Gwok Jing has the advantage of youth and vitality. Martial arts wise, it's a wash.

[IcyFox]

I'd chose YG for all the rounds. He'll win simply because he's the main character.


I think GWM vs. any Great is equal to YG. vs GJ. If the Chinese are smart they should get HR to teach the Great some wacky tricks and hope it works. H7G and HR would be a good trickster combo.

[duguxiaojing]

Actually sacraficing a weak figther against GWM was HR's plan to defeat the mongols...even with out another great. She borrowed the tactic from Sun Bin...it went something like, the third grade horse goes against the opponents first(GWM vs HDT=lose), your first goes against their second(Gj vs DEB=win) and then your second against their third(ZZL vs HD=win). Unfortunatly HD cheated and managed to gain the victory over ZZL which messed up HR's plan.

Gj did mention that GWM might be ruthless with the third tier fighter if the mongols knew that they would lose...but i think he said that to sace HDT face..HDT was a senior in the martial world and he was being used as the third grade horse .

[SolidSnake]

The way I see it, HR's plan worked.
Zhu Ziliu already stood down and gave mercy to Huo Dou. It's like the ring already rang on a boxer match. No contestant was supposed to take more action after that. Why would they take such abuse?

Guo Jing is too pacifist and kind hearted. If it's Xiao Feng, he would fight all the three contestants himself.
If Jin Lun Guoshi+NMX+YKX+XXZ can not defeat Guo Jing, kind of hard to imagine Jin Lun+Daerba+Huo Dou can.