The ROCH Heroes' Conference *with* the Greats

[duguxiaojing]

It's like the ring already rang on a boxer match. No contestant was supposed to take more action after that. Why would they take such abuse?

Unfortunatley there was no bell ...really ZZL's fault for showing mercy he should have left HD there instead of unsealing his accupoints.

If Jin Lun Guoshi+NMX+YKX+XXZ can not defeat Guo Jing, kind of hard to imagine Jin Lun+Daerba+Huo Dou can

It was hinted in that scene that GWM and Gj were equals and also that Gj would proboally have been overwhelmed had the mongo elites fought as a team. Gj using big dipper formation+ the mercenaries working against one another definatley helped Gj out alot. If DEB,HD and GWM fought GJ during the heroes meet they would not hold back....there is a good chance that they could defeat Gj.

[Ken Cheng]

There were no provisions during this contest for a one-on-three fight. That would have been against the terms of the battle. Even if Gwok Jing could have soloed the Golden Wheel Monk, Fok Do, and Dat Yee Ba (doubtful), it would not have been allowed. Everybody would have been disqualified.

[Thai guy]

.
If Jin Lun Guoshi+NMX+YKX+XXZ can not defeat Guo Jing, kind of hard to imagine Jin Lun+Daerba+Huo Dou can.

The fight at the Luk Manor was not that fun. In the fair fight, without cheating, we could see that ZZL could win Hua Dou and GJ could then easily win Da Er Ba. Then, the third round with GLFW would become unnecessary.

If we change the scenario, though, if the fight is 4 rounds and the winners need to win 3 out of 4. The fighters will be GLFW, NMX, YKX and XXZ, surely the Chinese would face big problems. If you were HR, how could you arrange the fighters?

[SolidSnake]

It was hinted in that scene that GWM and Gj were equals and also that Gj would proboally have been overwhelmed had the mongo elites fought as a team. Gj using big dipper formation+ the mercenaries working against one another definatley helped Gj out alot. If DEB,HD and GWM fought GJ during the heroes meet they would not hold back....there is a good chance that they could defeat Gj.

During the fight at the Mongol camp, Jinlun & the gang were working together and not against one another. It was explicitly mention that no one was holding back. Only when Yang Guo butted in (by trying to stab his uncle from the back) did XXZ and only XXZ started interfering. The others were still ganging up on GJ.
I need not elaborate, I think everyone can read for themselves. The translation is here somewhere in this forum.
(really, Jin Yong need to tone GJ down a bit, he almost looked like a super hero here)

[Ken Cheng]

If we change the scenario, though, if the fight is 4 rounds and the winners need to win 3 out of 4. The fighters will be GLFW, NMX, YKX and XXZ, surely the Chinese would face big problems. If you were HR, how could you arrange the fighters?

At that point, however, Lui Mor Singh, Wan Hak Sai, and Siu Seung Tze had not yet been recruited into Kublai Khan's service (or if they had, had not been deployed to support the Golden Wheel Monk). If these three can be there for the Mongols, then Wong Yerk See, Chow Bak Tung, and 1 Deng should be there for the Chinese.

[yittz]

Why not send YG to find JLFW for second round?

If Icy is right, then its all good.
If Icy is wrong, YG loses, then at least the third round is in the bag with Greats vs Daerba.

Did I miss something? I see no way of Mongols winning with two greats choosing to fight the two apprentices. If JLFW can chose to fight in 2nd round why cant the second great relocated his fight to third.

Even if greats decide to fight JLFW, and lose. I don't see how Daerba can take on ZZL. Huo Du only use cheats to win. While the weaker apprentice of ZZL almost fought Daerba to a draw.

[Ken Cheng]

Did I miss something? I see no way of Mongols winning with two greats choosing to fight the two apprentices. If JLFW can chose to fight in 2nd round why cant the second great relocated his fight to third.

One of the senior Greats or Gwok Jing will definitely need to fight the Golden Wheel Monk. The problem is that not any one of them can absolutely guarantee a win against the Golden Wheel Monk. It's about 50/50.

Even if greats decide to fight JLFW, and lose. I don't see how Daerba can take on ZZL. Huo Du only use cheats to win. While the weaker apprentice of ZZL almost fought Daerba to a draw.

Dat Yee Ba was more powerful than Fok Do. Chu Tze Lau can defeat Fok Do, but I'm not certain that Chu can defeat Dat Yee Ba.

But we know Yeung Gor, even at that stage, could defeat both Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba. Maybe that's the key.

[yittz]

I would favour greats, cause they are more experienced and confident. If it was greats matching palms against JLFW, they would not have let him escape with minor internal clashes.

Then again, age favours GJ, and JL may not be that stupid as to take the palm standing still.

[Ken Cheng]

I would favour greats, cause they are more experienced and confident. If it was greats matching palms against JLFW, they would not have let him escape with minor internal clashes.

Advantage senior Greats for experience and confidence, but I worry about their endurance and stamina at their advanced age. If it's a short fight, the senior Great should win. If the Golden Wheel Monk can drag it out, however, it can get dangerous.

Then again, age favours GJ, and JL may not be that stupid as to take the palm standing still.

That's what I'm thinking as well, but while we know that Gwok Jing will surely fight honorably, we can't trust the Golden Wheel Monk to do the same. This is a potential concern here.

[KJ]

One of the senior Greats or Gwok Jing will definitely need to fight the Golden Wheel Monk. The problem is that not any one of them can absolutely guarantee a win against the Golden Wheel Monk. It's about 50/50.

I don't see why any of the Greats have to fight the GWM. If they fight his 2 apprentices, that is a definite win and all they need is 2 wins.

[duguxiaojing]

During the fight at the Mongol camp, Jinlun & the gang were working together and not against one another. It was explicitly mention that no one was holding back. Only when Yang Guo butted in (by trying to stab his uncle from the back) did XXZ and only XXZ started interfering. The others were still ganging up on GJ.

From Noodels translation:

Fa Wang’s martial arts and Guo Jing’s martial arts were separated by the smallest of margins, Guo Jing may have had more fortunate encounters than Fa Wang but Fa Wang was twenty years older than him; he had twenty years worth of internal energy more than Guo Jing. If the two fought one on one, they would have to exchange over a thousand stances to decide who was better. With first-rate fighters such as Ni Mo Xing and Xiao Xiang Zi by his side, it wouldn’t have been difficult to gain victory over Guo Jing but Guo Jing’s [Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms] were too powerful and along with his palm technique, he was using Quan Zhen’s [Big Dipper Formation], he went to and fro as he fought and it was like as if he had separated into seven.

When Khubilai came up with reward of being ‘Mongolia’s greatest warrior’, he had hoped that his men would use all their efforts to achieve this goal but instead they fought amongst each other, this was something that he did not predict

If they had attacked together and went all out as a team i think they could have defeated GJ.... even GJ realized if the fight carried on he would lose.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't see why any of the Greats have to fight the GWM. If they fight his 2 apprentices, that is a definite win and all they need is 2 wins.

It depends on the order of the fights. If the Golden Wheel Monk fights first or last, then the Chinese win for sure. If the Golden Wheel Monk is the middle fighter, then the Mongols have a chance if the Golden Wheel Monk can win.

As the guests, I think the Mongols would claim the privilege of determining the order of the fights. I remember that was the case in the actual contest. The Mongols called the shots as far as whom they would send in at what time, and the Chinese had to respond to that.

[K2Grey]

I don't get it... if GWM goes 2nd then they can go have one of Yideng's disciples go out and begin the fight by surrendering, then retreating back into the crowd. Then either GWM is dumbfounded or he decides not to accept the surrender and chases after the fisherman and GJ goes out to stop him and a mass brawl occurs in which the Mongolians get owned, since GWM is not Xiao Feng and Luk Manor is not Ju Xian Manor.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't get it... if GWM goes 2nd then they can go have one of Yideng's disciples go out and begin the fight by surrendering, then retreating back into the crowd. Then either GWM is dumbfounded or he decides not to accept the surrender and chases after the fisherman and GJ goes out to stop him and a mass brawl occurs in which the Mongolians get owned, since GWM is not Xiao Feng and Luk Manor is not Ju Xian Manor.

The point of that contest was that everybody had to fight according to the rules. In ROCH '83, Yeung Gor proposed that the Chinese fighters had the advantage of numbers and should have just ganged up on the three Mongol warriors and chased them away. Chu Tze Lau criticized that plan as workable, but against the spirit of the fight, and would have given the Mongols the moral upper hand (i.e. the Mongols could claim that their invasion of China was justified because they were attempting to civilize a dishonorable and savage people).

[MisterM]

The point of that contest was that everybody had to fight according to the rules. In ROCH '83, Yeung Gor proposed that the Chinese fighters had the advantage of numbers and should have just ganged up on the three Mongol warriors and chased them away. Chu Tze Lau criticized that plan as workable, but against the spirit of the fight, and would have given the Mongols the moral upper hand (i.e. the Mongols could claim that their invasion of China was justified because they were attempting to civilize a dishonorable and savage people).

Which is why HR specifically asked the mongolians if they were fighting with Huo Dou in the first round, Da Er Ba in the second and Jin Lun Fawang in the third round, it was only because Huo Dou agreed to this that the chinese martial artists were originally assured of victory, because they could simply have their two best martial artists go up against the 2 disciples, than even if Jin Lun Fa Wang would beat whoever went up to fight him in a single stance it would be irrelevant.

If, for example, ZBT had arrived in time, it would simply have been GJ vs Hou Dou and ZBT vs Da Er Ba, and if JLFW had insisted on a third round one of the remaining famous martial artists would have sacrified his life by facing JLFW (IIRC in the original battle one of the masters of QuanZhen volunteered to go up against JLFW in the third round even if it ment that he would certainly die to allow Zhu Zi Liu and GJ to fight in the first two rounds).

[Ken Cheng]

Which is why HR specifically asked the mongolians if they were fighting with Huo Dou in the first round, Da Er Ba in the second and Jin Lun Fawang in the third round, it was only because Huo Dou agreed to this that the chinese martial artists were originally assured of victory.

I was under the impression that the Chinese had no idea what order the Mongols would send their warriors into the contest, although it turned out that it was indeed going to be first Fok Do, then Dat Yee Ba, then the Golden Wheel Monk.

That's the way it actually played out in ROCH, of course, but in our hypothetical scenario here, we're assuming that the Chinese don't know the order of their opponents and that moreover, the Mongols do plan to send the Golden Wheel Monk second for a possible 1-1 tie at the end of two rounds with no Greats left for the third round.

[KJ]

It depends on the order of the fights. If the Golden Wheel Monk fights first or last, then the Chinese win for sure. If the Golden Wheel Monk is the middle fighter, then the Mongols have a chance if the Golden Wheel Monk can win.

As the guests, I think the Mongols would claim the privilege of determining the order of the fights. I remember that was the case in the actual contest. The Mongols called the shots as far as whom they would send in at what time, and the Chinese had to respond to that.

Why would they have a chance to win? If we have one of the Greats fight Huo Dou, and Guo Jing fight Da Er Ba. We will have 2 wins even if the GWM wins round 2.

[MisterM]

I was under the impression that the Chinese had no idea what order the Mongols would send their warriors into the contest, although it turned out that it was indeed going to be first Fok Do, then Dat Yee Ba, then the Golden Wheel Monk.

From Noodles Translation of ROCH:

Huo Dou knew that the strongest person on the opposite side was Guo Jing, his master has no match on earth, he will definitely beat him. Though Huang Rong used a strange move to take the stick back, judging from her delicate and apprehensive appearance if she really fought she may not be that strong and the others don’t even need any consideration, his eyes swept across the crowd and then said, “If anyone has another suggestion then please express them now. Once victory is decided, then the orders of the wulin Chancellor must be followed.”
The heroes wanted to agree but they had seen him defeat Lu You Jiao and the Wu brothers one after the other sparingly, they didn’t know what other abilities he hasn’t shown yet, none of them dared to interrupt and all turned their heads towards the Guo couple.
Huang Rong said, “You are competing in the first round, your apprentice brother in the second, your master in the third, that’s decided and won’t change right?”
Huo Dou said, “That is correct.”
Huang Rong said quietly to those around her, “Our victory is assured.”

The chinese fighters only agreed to the contest after Huo Dou had agreed to fight in the specified order, once Huo Dou agreed to this in front of everyone at the heroes gathering the Mongols could no longer change the fighting order without loosing a lot of face, which they could not afford if they want JLFW to become Chancelor of Wulin.

That's the way it actually played out in ROCH, of course, but in our hypothetical scenario here, we're assuming that the Chinese don't know the order of their opponents and that moreover, the Mongols do plan to send the Golden Wheel Monk second for a possible 1-1 tie at the end of two rounds with no Greats left for the third round.

Assuming Huo Dou didn't agree to fight in a specific order: The Mongols still were the challengers here, so it's only logical that they should present their fighters first, and there's no way HR wouldn't try to play things in such a way as to have the 2 Greats beat the 2 disciples of JLFW.

If that scenario didn't work out somehow the chinese would still have the advantage, with one match undecided and possibly ending in a double fatality like HQG vs OYF, one match a sure win for the chinese and the third match possibly a win a for the chinese if Huo Duo would get eliminated by a great because that leaves Da Er Ba against Zhu Zhi Liu, and I personnaly think that Da Er Ba would loose against ZZL because he lacks the literary knowledge that allowed Huo Dou to hold his own for a long time against ZZL (Huo Dou lost rather quickly once he was unable to predict ZZLs moves because of his literary knowledge) and he's not sneaky enough to trick ZZL either.
Moreover if the great that's present should be HQG or even OYF (who knows, maybe he's still mad and YG convinces him to fight or whatever) they would probably consider sending YG out instead of ZZL which would also guarantee a win for the chinese.

The situation should only become critical for the Chinese side if NMX and XXZ were to fight on the Mongol side instead of Huo Duo and Da Er Ba.

[SolidSnake]

From Noodels translation:
With first-rate fighters such as Ni Mo Xing and Xiao Xiang Zi by his side, it wouldn’t have been difficult to gain victory over Guo Jing but Guo Jing’s [Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms] were too powerful and along with his palm technique, he was using Quan Zhen’s [Big Dipper Formation], he went to and fro as he fought and it was like as if he had separated into seven.

I think the highlight is supposed to be that.
It's like saying the indians were good melee fighters and it would not be difficult for them to work together and pawn one cavalary except that the cavalary was firing seven machine guns with seemingly unlimited ammo at them at all time.

If they had attacked together and went all out as a team i think they could have defeated GJ.... even GJ realized if the fight carried on he would lose.

It was mentioned that they went all out already. But, I agree, if the fight last much longer they probably could win. That's why I think JY need to tone GJ down a bit. At this point of story, JY probably realize it as well. It's not making sense if GJ were too powerful, JY would be contradicting his own naration and the story would not be as interesting. (if Song has a god-like creature defending it, Mongol would have never succeeded )

[duguxiaojing]

I think the highlight is supposed to be that.

I only took out the first part in that paragraph..the last part said something like, that is one reason why Gj could last so long the other being the mongo fighters were a bit weary of Gj because he took down one fighter(forgot who ) really fast, so at this point they were not going all out because they feared GJ. In the next paragraph after that it was mentioned that GWM and NMX (I think)began increasing the power in their attacks and GJ began to look for a way to escape. So I think the meaning of the paragraph was to show why GJ was able to last so long, not that GJ was dominating them with 18DP.

Anyways what im trying to get at is that i doubt GJ could have defeated all three of them at once, although he was doing pretty good at the time. If he was roughly equal to GWM which was stated before and during this fight, i have a hard time believing he could defeat a mixture of GWM,DEB and HD or in this situation GWM and other elites.