The ROCH Heroes' Conference *with* the Greats

[SolidSnake]

... If he was roughly equal to GWM which was stated before and during this fight, i have a hard time believing he could defeat a mixture of GWM,DEB and HD or in this situation GWM and other elites.

That is the contradiction I pointed out earlier. Jin Yong said one thing at one paragraph and then another thing at the next chapter. He wrote about they (Guo Jing & Jin Lun Guosi) being almost equal, but then he threw in Jin Lun Guosi plus so many top fighters against Guo Jing while saying he was holding them all really well. When the Mongols were increasing their power, Guo Jing was also doing the same. It would take a really long time to determine the real winner.

The part where Guo Jing surprise them in how easily he pawned one of them, it's a legitimate fight tactics. The Mongols getting weary didn't mean they were holding back. It just meant, they would be more careful, which I think should make it more difficult for Guo Jing to win. It still meant all out (all the tricks, all the power, etc).

I don't think I've ever mention Guo Jing was dominating his enemies. That was never the point. The example I gave merely showed that he was able to keep them at bay for a long time. Since I always assume Ni Moxing, Xiao Xiangzi,Yin Kexi are better than Daerba & Huo Dou, I assume Jin Lun Guosi mix with Daerba & Huo Dou would be weaker than the mix at Mongolian camp, therefore, I repeat, if the mix at the camp faced extreme difficulty to actually defeat Guo Jing, it's quite impossible to see the mix at the manor can pull it off. I think it should be easy to understand this point.

Anyway, you don't have to convince me that Guo Jing should in trouble. Xiao Feng was facing trouble fighting two enemies who were not on his league (at shaolin), Guo Jing should be in bigger trouble fighting someone who was on his league plus other elite combatants.

[duguxiaojing]

He wrote about they (Guo Jing & Jin Lun Guosi) being almost equal, but then he threw in Jin Lun Guosi plus so many top fighters against Guo Jing while saying he was holding them all really well. When the Mongols were increasing their power, Guo Jing was also doing the same.

Well he gave his reasons on why GJ was able to hold on for so long..up 2 reader to decide if they are believeable or not. Also when GWM and NMX increased the strenght in their attacks, GJ getting worried and felt that he would not be able to hold them off.

The part where Guo Jing surprise them in how easily he pawned one of them, it's a legitimate fight tactics. The Mongols getting weary didn't mean they were holding back. It just meant, they would be more careful, which I think should make it more difficult for Guo Jing to win. It still meant all out (all the tricks, all the power, etc).

Sure, you could look at it that way, but that was also one of the reasons that GJ was able to hold them off.

I don't think I've ever mention Guo Jing was dominating his enemies. That was never the point. The example I gave merely showed that he was able to keep them at bay for a long time.

OIC, I think it was your example of "seven machine guns firing with unlimited ammo vs indians" that made me think otherwise my bad.

Since I always assume Ni Moxing, Xiao Xiangzi,Yin Kexi are better than Daerba & Huo Dou, I assume Jin Lun Guosi mix with Daerba & Huo Dou would be weaker than the mix at Mongolian camp, therefore, I repeat, if the mix at the camp faced extreme difficulty to actually defeat Guo Jing, it's quite impossible to see the mix at the manor can pull it off.

I dont disagree with your first statement, but in your original post you said that "if GWM and the other elites could not defeat GJ", (which I dont belive) then GWM and his studends couldnt win either. For the mix of GWM and his disciples..i believe that Gj would defeat GWM if it were 1on1 but it would be a hard battle, throwing in two other fighters would tip it in GWM's favor....that's my opinion anyways.

[K2Grey]

It seemed fairly clear to me that GWM + the other Mongol fighters were superior to Guo Jing. It was just that Guo Jing knocked out one guy really early on and everyone else was scared, so they were somewhat defensive and Guo Jing could just go to and fro with his XL18Z and Big Dipper techniques, and GJ's ability to seemingly hold his own probably got the Mongols even more cautious. But when the Mongols decided they could deal with him and started putting the pressure on him, GJ started cracking.

It might be analogous to when for example 6 punks gang up on one guy and the one guy goes and bashes one punk really hard and takes him out in 1 punch. Then all the punks panic and the single guy just chases everyone down and beats on them and dominates. If the punks had actually attacked together they would have won, but they hesitated and started running etc.

[SolidSnake]

Sure, you could look at it that way, but that was also one of the reasons that GJ was able to hold them off.

I never consider it had other ways to look at

I dont disagree with your first statement, but in your original post you said that "if GWM and the other elites could not defeat GJ", (which I dont belive) then GWM and his studends couldnt win either.

They could not. Or is it my mistake in wording?
They did not (probably conveyed it better?). Even up until they gave everything they can, Guo Jing was still not defeated. What happened if the fight continue for much longer? Guo Jing's worried he might not be able to hold them, only that much we know.

[duguxiaojing]

I never consider it had other ways to look at

Well, I saw it as the others being afraid of GJ and going defensive, and from the way the paragraph was worded it seemed that GJ was the one who benefited from this.

They did not (probably conveyed it better?). Even up until they gave everything they can, Guo Jing was still not defeated. What happened if the fight continue for much longer? Guo Jing's worried he might not be able to hold them, only that much we know.

...well i'm not trying to change your views, if you think GJ could have won the fight great.. its just that i disagree about the line saying combination of the mongo elites not defeat GJ. I'm actually a bit confused now though..so do you think Gj could win or not...one post you say he will win(err..rather that he was not defeated), then next post Gj will proboally be defeated..now i think your hinting that he'll win?

Anyways, just to clear things up I belive GJ will beat GWM, but he cant beat a combination of GWM+others(as long as their decent). Fun discussion BTW its been a while since ive refreshed page to look for response.

[SolidSnake]

Fun discussion BTW its been a while since ive refreshed page to look for response.

Yes, I respected your opinion.
Let's see if I can clear mine up. My personal view is that Guo Jing should not be able to win against the mix (JLGS+any of the elites). It would go against Jin Yong's own statement, he would not allow that.
But, Jin Yong showed us an interesting trend in the novel. Bare with me this scenario:
When the fight at the Mongol camp start, it was Guo Jing against Jin Lun + YKX, NMX, XXZ, MGZ. 1 vs 5.
Guo Jing finished Yin Kexi off, it was now 1 vs 4.
Ma GZ can not do anything to Guo Jing, and was later pulled back by YG, it was now 1 vs 3.
The situation was dire, none of them were holding back and Guo Jing was worried he might not be able to hold them. Then the original gang-duel was not continued (Yang Guo interfered, Mongolian soldiers too, etc) . By seeing the numbers, Jin Yong was bringing us (or me) to see a trend and stop just there.
We will never know how it would go on.

Jin Yong could have simply wrote that:
1. Guo Jing was defeated and ran away. Or he could also wrote that..
2. Guo Jing made another surprisingly awesome move and finished either NMX or XXZ off, scaring the other one away, leaving only Jin Lun to fight one on one (you kind of agree on the probable outcome of this already ). Or..
3. anything..

But he didn't. We were simply left to intrepret the outcome ourselves. I kind of have the feeling that Jin Yong wanted Guo Jing to win but he can not go back on what he had already written on earlier chapter (plus it does not really good to have one super hero here, we would never have the wonderful debate about Guo Jing vs YG ).

Now you know what my personal view and what I intrepret from the novel is. I hope that clear things up a bit.

Really, it was not my intention for the discussion to go this way. I was pointing out about Guo Jing being a pacifist and kindhearted. What Huo Dou did to Zhu Ziliu was not honorable and abusive. Guo Jing should not have let it slide. The incident made me remember what Xiao Feng did to Murong Fu after the latter ungrateful attack on Duan Yu when Duan Yu has stopped attacking. This kind of thing was probably why Jin Yong said Xiao Feng is his undefeated character.

[IcyFox]

Wow, this thread seems to belong to SolidSnake and Duguxiaojing.

[Extremer88]

Wow, this thread seems to belong to SolidSnake and Duguxiaojing.

Haha, it seems to be

[yittz]

Must take over. I think the scenario Ken is doing is have three fighter's (on each side) names put in each hat. Draw them out and fight. Either that or let the mongols choose which of the chinese three (2greats + 1) they want to fight against. Or else there is no way of the mongols winning.

In the novel, the Mongol's order of fighters were fixed, hence HR came up with the horsy-swappy-SunZi thing.

[duguxiaojing]

Now you know what my personal view and what I intrepret from the novel is. I hope that clear things up a bit.

Yeah, I see...in a fight vs experts anything could have happened...Gj did injure or surprise 3/4 of the elites pretty bad...the confusion was that i thought u were saying GJ won the actual fight...again my bad misunderstood the meaning of your post.

Really, it was not my intention for the discussion to go this way. I was pointing out about Guo Jing being a pacifist and kindhearted. What Huo Dou did to Zhu Ziliu was not honorable and abusive. Guo Jing should not have let it slide.

Dont disagree with this at all....I dont know why they honored HD cheap victory over ZZL.

[CC]

Yeah, I see...in a fight vs experts anything could have happened...Gj did injure or surprise 3/4 of the elites pretty bad...the confusion was that i thought u were saying GJ won the actual fight...again my bad misunderstood the meaning of your post.



Dont disagree with this at all....I dont know why they honored HD cheap victory over ZZL.

To be fair to Guo Jing, you can't compare his situation with XF smacking MRF.

MRF's attack on DY was more open.

HD's attack was sneakier and not so blatant.

MRF was XF's equal in wulin rank.

HD was GJ's junior in wulin.

If GJ jumped in and smacked HD, JLFW would jump in and claim that GJ was bullying his disciple, then if it becomes a brawl, the Mongols occupy the apparant moral high ground.

XF at that point didn't give a crap about what the wulin though about him. He was willing to take on everyone by himself if necessary.

GJ was representing the Central plains wulin, XF didn't have to give a fart.

[duguxiaojing]

If GJ jumped in and smacked HD, JLFW would jump in and claim that GJ was bullying his disciple, then if it becomes a brawl, the Mongols occupy the apparant moral high ground.

Actually, I was hoping for an all out brawl ...that way they could have got rid of GWM once and for all, but i understand that it would have been a moral victory for the mongoalians had they did that...so really that would not have been a good choice so..can't be 2 hard on Gj for doing the right thing.

My comment wasnt chastising GJ for not instigating a fight with GWM..(although if i had his martial arts ability i would have went XFSSJ3 on him ) but the people the people their in general, they somehow found HD's words about using concealed weapons and turning victory into defeat reasonable, imo ZZL was clearly the better fighter and winner.

[K2Grey]

Well, if there was an all out brawl who is to say that they would have had a moral victory if they were all punked? The Mongolians broke their word, then started a brawl over it, the Chinese occupy the moral high ground, no one is around to contradict them

[ChronoReverse]

It seemed fairly clear to me that GWM + the other Mongol fighters were superior to Guo Jing. It was just that Guo Jing knocked out one guy really early on and everyone else was scared, so they were somewhat defensive and Guo Jing could just go to and fro with his XL18Z and Big Dipper techniques, and GJ's ability to seemingly hold his own probably got the Mongols even more cautious. But when the Mongols decided they could deal with him and started putting the pressure on him, GJ started cracking.

It might be analogous to when for example 6 punks gang up on one guy and the one guy goes and bashes one punk really hard and takes him out in 1 punch. Then all the punks panic and the single guy just chases everyone down and beats on them and dominates. If the punks had actually attacked together they would have won, but they hesitated and started running etc.

It's interesting how you say and the narrator (Jin Yong) says that but the description of the fight clearly has GJ getting better and better. His opponents were waiting for GJ to tire out but GJ didn't tire out. In fact, it was only until YG mucked about that GJ got hit (and thus his entire rhythm ruined).

[Ken Cheng]

Revisiting this old thread for a new consideration:

Even if the Chinese had all the living Greats available at the Heroes' Conference, they might have had a problem: their own rules regarding generational hierarchy and their sense of pride and honor. Sure, any one of the Greats could easily beat the living snot out of the likes of Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba, but since those two warriors were at least one generation below the Greats, would the Greats even have been willing to fight them? The Greats would have been of the same generational status of the Golden Wheel Monk. Among the Greats, only Gwok Jing belonged to the same "generation" as Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba and could, according to wulin custom, fight against them. That means that the Chinese would still be missing someone who could be a sure thing against the Golden Wheel Monk (although if they go with the plan of having Chu Tze Lau fight Fok Do and Gwok Jing fight Dat Yee Ba, they won't need to have one of the Greats fight the Golden Wheel Monk in a third round).

But I could just see the Golden Wheel Monk (or more likely Fok Do) pull this "Lee Mok Sau card" (like she did against East Heretic Wong Yerk See) and try to claim how shameful it would be for the Greats to beat up on "juniors" such as Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba.

[yittz]

If HYS and his disciples were there, GLFW would have no chance, even if they faught fairly. HYS's youngest and weakest disciple (preROCH), with a limp was enough to counter LMC. His older disciples without cripple/blinding would tear GLFW's disciples apart.

Techniquely you can count GJ as disciple to HYS. If HYS wanted to he could do a YG, and make GJ fight both fights against Huo Du and Da Er Ba. GLFW complains, let them both fight GJ at the same time.

[shenlong]

If we assume the format is the same, it wouldn't matter. I doubt the greats would need 10 stances to beat the diciples and that's 2 out of 3.

[dowzkeh]

Hi,
I've only recently started watching Wuxia, and stumbled onto here by accident, and in particular this thread.

Interesting discussion going on here.
However, i watched the ROCH with Liu Yifei as XLN, and noted that JLFW managed to hold off Old Imp and Southern Monk in an episode. It's only after East Heretic came that JLFW got subdued.

Subsequently, JLFW tricked Guo Xiang, and managed to escape.

In that sense, is JLFW better than the Greats?

[batmankiller]

Why do ppl underestimate YG in thinking that's he ages below FD? I mean if YG can shoot a needle at his knee in front of his face.. with no ambushes whatsoever..he warned him a thousand times lol. (unlike FD ambushing the scholar)

I think people will agree with me that a great will never fall for such a trick, maybe close level fighters would have problems with ranged-weapons without ambushes which is fly i argue that YG is not that far below FD.

[Ken Cheng]

Why do ppl underestimate YG in thinking that's he ages below FD?

To most of wulin (including those who had known him since his childhood), Yeung Gor was just a seventeen year old kid at the time...and one generally didn't expect seventeen year old kids to take on wulin veterans such as Fok Do. Not many people knew about the various skills that Yeung Gor had already learned by that time. If they had, perhaps they would have sent him out to fight Fok Do first.