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Thread: HUANG RONG vs. XIAO LONG NU DEBATE

  1. #41
    Member Zhen Yu Cao's Avatar
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    ...Wow.

    Alright, HR 'trained' during the 16 years ya? She only had to raise kids, defend XY and pretty much run anything of importance (she was the smart one). Yes...of course. HR may have the inner strength edge, but that doesnt do nothing against a sword unless you happen to be using ShaoLin's Iron Body. A very fast sword will cut HR into pieces, she'll have to defend and at most riposte, the problem with this is XLN is perfectly 'dual wielding.' I do however agree that both of em have achieved quite a level by the end of ROCH, but through different ways than the greats. First Generation Greats relied on years and years and years of intense training in their own style of martial arts. They achieve perfect form and incredible strength. The GJ/YG greats both journey and quest quite a bit in their adolescent years, picking things up as they go, with periods of intense training. Then they find their style and perfect it. GJ's was a trump card on the other martial artists, the 9Yin. YG also had a trump card, although it was more of a 'do it yourself' deal. Then you got HR and XLN. How did they achieve their level? I wouldn't say they're all that well rounded. They excel in something. EXCEL terribly. HR is such a cunning person, the DBS is excellent for her because it allows her to use that part of her every second of combat. XLN excels incredibly in speed, with a slight lack of power compared to her rivals in the same 'class.' Yet she makes up for it very well against her own class with incredible technique. Against great level fighters she'll last awhile, but ultimately get owned by their strength. HR just really doesn't stand any chance at all against a great, yet she can kick much of her class' arse cause she has found something that she is perfect for.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    But really, I don't think that HR only got a slight internal energy advantage. HR was already a better fighter than LMC in ROCH, so I believe that she would at least have the same amount of internal energy pr more. XLN's internal energy isn't up to that level yet. XLN didn't train at all for 16 years in both the skill and internal department, so you add 16 years more to HR's internal energy, even if she can't compare to a Great, it should be a lot stronger than XLN. But ofcourse, that doesn't mean that she can beat XLN's speedy swords, but there is no certainty.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    Alright, HR 'trained' during the 16 years ya? She only had to raise kids, defend XY and pretty much run anything of importance (she was the smart one).
    Ok buddy why are you suprised please tell me. First of all i never said HR was stronger than XLN after the sixteen year seperation. I even said that XLN was greater than WR before the 16year split due to the reaction of the QZ elders+the fact that she was able to go stance for stance for GWM. BUT HR was able to defeat LMC and HD while not being full health.LMC even commented that she proboally would not have been able to defeat HR(even if HR did not use trickery to defeat her). SHE WAS A TOP LEVEL MARTIAL ARTIST. And what does having kids and defending XY have to do with her progress? will it deter her to the point where she will have no gains? Do you really believe that XLN was that much ahead of HR after learning LR tech?? Gj was a pretty busy guy do u think that hes progressed dropped off as well? What about WYS? or ZBT?or H7G did any of their progress dropped when the started wandering the world?How about 1deng how did he even become a great how was he so powerful during the first mount wah tournament?man he must suck due to all the resposiblities of being king. And WCY too didnt he spend much of his life defending china from the jin soliders?how much time did YG have to train when he goes around playing hero? or even better GWM who is the religious leader of his country and the protector of mongolia u dont think he has a bunch of people to boss and a bunch of sh!t to do???All the greats were occupied with other things at one point in their lives, So having two kids and guarding a fortress means WR has no time to train at all? She was looking after 3 kids before as well as defending XY(for some time) and before that helping to solve internal problems of Begger sect Y didnt her level just drop off then??? I didnt say she improved drastically,is it so unreasonable to say she improved after 16 YEARS?? If u want to argue about the fact that XLN did not improve just read the novel it came from her lips not mine. I also never said that HR/XLN was at a greats level i simply stated the her and XLN were good enough to be considerded to be greats didnt that happen during the end of ROCH at MT.WAH?? So really is it that insane to say that they're roughly the same?....ok "WOW" yeah man whatever
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 04-17-04 at 10:51 PM.

  4. #44
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    We should also not underestimate the Beat Dog Stick Technique of Wong Yung. This was one of the two martial arts (the other being Hong Lung 18 Palms) that made North Beggar Hung 7 Gung one of the Greats. Wong Yung's skill in the Beat Dog Stick Technique in ROCH was said to be equal to Hung 7 Gung's, although she could not match him in sheer power (both physical strength and internal energy). Is that enough to counter Little Dragon Girl's Double Sword Attack? It's very hard to say, but even if it isn't, it should provide the Double Sword Attack with good competition...perhaps good enough to stall Little Dragon Girl until Wong Yung can devise a winning strategy.

    It's very 50/50 the way I see it.

  5. #45
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    Originally posted by superboy
    Well, HR and XLN shouldn't really be counted as being able to take the place of the former Greats, but other than GJ and YG, their about the best out there.

    Anyway, internal energy wise, HR should be far superior to XLN, but the only problem that XLN may cause is her twin sword style which is a big problem. I'll turn out to be the Dog Beating Stick versus the Jade Heart Swordplay.
    Why should HRs internal energy be far superior to XLNs? We never see her actually engaging in a internal strength contest, and I can't remember her doing a single thing that would show that she has got exceptional internal energy during ROCH.

    During ROCH HR was incredibly busy, had 3 kids and actually damaged her internal strength during the 2nd time she was pregnant. Just having 9yin internal strength doesn't automatically make her superior to XLN, after all we can see people with merely good internal strength techniques develope awesome internal strength (for example HYS, QQR, YG) while some people using very good internal strength techniques never get really good internal strength (for example pretty much everyone alive at QZ during ROCH). Also, LMC didn't seem to have radically inferior internal strength compared to HR, and she didn't even know the highest Ancient Tomb sect internal strength technique.

    HRs main strength is her mind, not her talent when it comes to fighting, when I read ROCH I always had the impression she just wasn't exceptionally talented when it comes to fighting skills, and that XLN with her rapid progress from below LMC to fighting GWM on an equal level in no time and learning most of her top martial arts without a teacher was actually incredibly talented in that category, why shouldn't her internal strength improve a lot faster than HRs? YG managed to have internal energy better than that of anyone at QZ by the time he was 20, it doesn't seem unreasonable that XLNs internal strength is as good or even better than HRs judging by everything we see the two do during ROCH.

    Originally posted by duguxiaojing
    MC even commented that she proboally would not have been able to defeat HR(even if HR did not use trickery to defeat her). SHE WAS A TOP LEVEL MARTIAL ARTIST. And what does having kids and defending XY have to do with her progress? will it deter her to the point where she will have no gains? Do you really believe that XLN was that much ahead of HR after learning LR tech??
    LMC was said to be inferior to all of the 5 remaining masters of QZ in a fair one on one match, but when the 5 QZ masters saw XLN fighting GWM after she learned L/R they were nearly speechless by how much XLN had progressed. The 5 of them had to use a modified Big Dipper formation to fight her, and that was with XLN already fighting GWM and friends for some time, I would say that makes XLN a lot stronger than HR.

    Originally posted by duguxiaojing
    Gj was a pretty busy guy do u think that hes progressed dropped off as well? What about WYS? or ZBT?or H7G did any of their progress dropped when the started wandering the world?How about 1deng how did he even become a great how was he so powerful during the first mount wah tournament?man he must suck due to all the resposiblities of being king. And WCY too didnt he spend much of his life defending china from the jin soliders?how much time did YG have to train when he goes around playing hero? or even better GWM who is the religious leader of his country and the protector of mongolia u dont think he has a bunch of people to boss and a bunch of sh!t to do??? All the greats were occupied with other things at one point in their lives, So having two kids and guarding a fortress means WR has no time to train at all? She was looking after 3 kids before as well as defending XY(for some time) and before that helping to solve internal problems of Begger sect Y didnt her level just drop off then???
    GJ was training 5 disciples during ROCH, HR wasn't even willing to teach her one disciple anything usefull, obviously GJ spent more time thinking about fighting and improving his skills than HR, and the reason he could do so was because HR was busy taking care of everything else.
    ZBT, H7G, HYS and friends all were travelling around China, not running a household and planning strategies, did H7G not go after the 5 clowns of Tibet on his own? In fact those guys were travelling around so that they don't have to waste their time with the things HR had to do during ROCH in the first place! 1deng had lots of officials running his country, if he has got enough time to have dozens of concubines he should have the time to train as much as the remaining greats. YG trained for years before starting to play the condor hero, and then from what we can see in the final chapters of ROCH he was probably fighing people he insulted more often than not. GWM had other people that did the bossing around for him while he continued to improve his abilitys or kill chinese heros, WCY seemed like he was even more talented than the other greats and we don't know enough about him to say for sure how much he trained before founding QZ...

  6. #46
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    ^ MisterM said most of it for me.
    Don't get mad, but listen to what you're saying eh?
    HR was BUSY, 'running things.' All the other 'greats' were out and about adventuring while in their youth and 'BUSY.' Out and adventuring means LOTS of martial arts usage, meaning lots of experience, training. A couple of your examples really seem to have no thought in them...
    1Deng, ya he was king. He was BUSY. Doing what, running the country? Oh of course...his wife only cheated on him because he was in his own lil world studying martial arts for very long periods at a time. WCY? GJ? Both defending a country, both fighting constantly, both at least maintaining their skills by doing it constantly. GJ in his youth? How much was this guy put through? Ya, you know it, he had to work hard to get where he is. He works diligently at things once he understands them. In 2 years of QZ internal energy training, where was he? Yang Guo while playing the hero? hahaha he was only fighting against 'Qiang Dao,' the lowly people who were either just bad or pretending to be good. Lots of fights=maintain skills. He only trained for years at the area of DGCB's grave and at the Red Sea. YEARS, of very intensive training. Where does this get him? Incredibly aggresive strength. ZBT? LOL are you kidding me? The man loves martial arts, because it's like playing to him and he's a kid. His inner strength had gotten to the point that his hair was becoming black again. And then we have XLN, who trained during the 16 years, but made NO improvement, only maintaining. HR, I truly do not see her improving, rather I see her almost declining considering her position. As for what's said above by Ken. Eh we all know the Beat Dog Stick is very useful. It's very much like DG9J in the way that you must break into your opponents technique, only here the point isn't simply to attack into their attack and kill them, it's to break and manipulate their attack to allow you to kick their *** soon. The problem faced by both these martial arts (and most really, except for the ones with HIGH inner strength) was the opponents speed. And that's where XLN shines. Using actual 'real life' logic to think, XLN is almost the bane of HR.
    Wandering the world,
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    Searching for a challenge,
    Begging for a loss...

  7. #47
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    HR wasn't even willing to teach her one disciple anything usefull, obviously GJ spent more time thinking about fighting and improving his skills than HR, and the reason he could do so was because HR was busy taking care of everything else.
    No HR did not teach YG anything usefull because she was afraid YG would end up like his father notice how she was teaching YG to become a scholar not a warrior that time could easily have been spent teaching YG how to fight.

    Ok so now i c your point ZYC while everyone else was busy some with jobs even more imprtant and demanding than HR they were still able to improve because they had other people running their sh!t right? What kind of important "things" did HR have to do that GJ did not have to do at XY? If GWM and 1deng could have other people helping them out HR cant? Ok i'l give u benefit and say HR NEVER trains AT ALL i mean thats what your suggesting right? Every second of every day is COMPLETELY FULL AND USED UP for 8-10 years does that sound reasonable? I mean how long does she have to baby her kids before she cuts the cord? OK fine even then she still has 6-8 years of extra training. HR never stopped training before the 16 year split neither has GJ why would she suddenly stop?

    I agree ZBT loves martial arts but do u think he'll give up playing pranks to train? The only reason why he practiced so hard on PBI was because he was stuck there with nothing to do+added on to th fact that he wanted to defeat HYS. IF ZBT was so dedicated to training why was he not up to the greats level during the first MT.HUA tournament? He obviously a martial arts genius+he's older as well you don think he would be at the greats level if he trained as hard?

    And how was HR more busy than WCY? At one point WCY was so busy fighting day and night against the jin army that LCY was able to surpass him(according to what was passe down to XLN i dont how reliable this is) yet after WCY was defeated and LCY got sick after some hard dedication he was able to surpass her. Again he was fighting day and night and he still did not gain much improvement. WCY spent most his life fighting Jin soliders before this event he was able to build his skills to an incrdible level. Saying that HR was more busy than WCY(during the early parts of his life) dosent even make sense.

    hahaha he was only fighting against 'Qiang Dao,' the lowly people who were either just bad or pretending to be good

    I dont know what a Qiang Dao is but how can you assume YG only fought against weak enemies? During his fight against GWM when he was losing JY wrote that whenever YG went up against a powerful opponent he would use sad palms are u suggesting the only time he ever used sad palms was against WYS and ZBT and not once against any opponent in between 16 years?



    HRs main strength is her mind, not her talent when it comes to fighting, when I read ROCH I always had the impression she just wasn't exceptionally talented when it comes to fighting skills, and that XLN with her rapid progress from below LMC to fighting GWM on an equal level in no time and learning most of her top martial arts without a teacher was actually incredibly talented in that category, why shouldn't her internal strength improve a lot faster than HRs? YG managed to have internal energy better than that of anyone at QZ by the time he was 20, it doesn't seem unreasonable that XLNs internal strength is as good or even better than HRs judging by everything we see the two do during ROCH.
    YG surpassed all the QZ masters because of IS technique and training in rapids not AT inner power. Before that he was no match for even LMC let alone QZ elders. And again XLN was not GWM match she was able to go stance for stance(which is impressive) due to the LR tech inner power wise she was no where near GWM.

    LMC was said to be inferior to all of the 5 remaining masters of QZ in a fair one on one match, but when the 5 QZ masters saw XLN fighting GWM after she learned L/R they were nearly speechless by how much XLN had progressed. The 5 of them had to use a modified Big Dipper formation to fight her, and that was with XLN already fighting GWM and friends for some time, I would say that makes XLN a lot stronger than HR.

    So? HR could defeat LMC as well. And the QZ masters did not use big dipper formation to fight XLN, their disciples attacked XLN in temple but when she was fighting GWM and mogo mercenaries they went as far as even helping her(yeah they did hit her but not intentionally). The QZ masters were heros they put defending their country above any sect rivalry.There was no GWM+mercenaries+ the hundreds to QZ students+QZ masteres all fighting XLN at one time. If that had happened not even GJ and YG combined at the end could win.



    Really i think u guys are seriously lookind down at HR she was able to go at least 11 stances with OYF with no one showing superiority early on in the book .she caught a seed spit by QQC WITH HER TEETH and two strikes with the seeds. We never see her in a real fight healthy but yet her skills are praised many times within novel. Her brief spar against OYF in beggining made her seem like a high level martial artist. It stated in the novel that she was a top tier martial artist. How could she be that much weaker than XLN? You guys make it sound like its an absolute fact that XLN is stronger than HR.
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 04-18-04 at 09:15 PM.

  8. #48
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    HR's internal energy was at least in the level of LMC to began with, probably more too. Actually, how busy can defending XY and having 3 kids be if we average out over a 16 year period? It wasn't like the Mongols invaded ever once a week. There was a very long time that the Mongol stopped attacking. She have no political position and it would be improbable that she was planning over a decade. People like HYS studies math, literature, medicine, etc plus having naughty daughter like HR didn't hinder his progress compare to the other Greats. So did GLFW, H7G, 1 Deng who all would at least have the same amount of affairs or more to take care of compare to HR. XLN never had HR's internal energy earlier in ROCH, and probabaly would have far less at the end.
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  9. #49
    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    you know, GJ uisng arrows and XL18Z can't defeat tens of thousands of mongols....i'm assuming they've gotta organize and train soldiers too, and all those other defense work

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    And this will obligate them from training when the Mongols haven't attacked for over a decade.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  11. #51
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    you know, GJ uisng arrows and XL18Z can't defeat tens of thousands of mongols....i'm assuming they've gotta organize and train soldiers too, and all those other defense work
    were not talking about GJ, were talking about HR and will it really take up so much time that HR will NEVER have time to train to the point where her martial arts begins to deterorate like one person claims?IN 16 YEARS she never has time? come on thats ridiculous im not saying all out dedication like YG either im just saying some practice once in a while like possibly H7G or HYS. Its not like they are battling day and night for sixteen straight years here.
    what other defense work? they're in a fortress does it really take 16 years to plan out a defensive shceme ?Woudnt there be some sort of routine created for the soliders to follow? Arent there other commanders+soliders ?
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 04-19-04 at 02:20 AM.

  12. #52
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    Originally posted by duguxiaojing
    were not talking about GJ, were talking about HR and will it really take up so much time that HR will NEVER have time to train to the point where her martial arts begins to deterorate like one person claims?IN 16 YEARS she never has time? come on thats ridiculous im not saying all out dedication like YG either im just saying some practice once in a while like possibly H7G or HYS. Its not like they are battling day and night for sixteen straight years here.
    what other defense work? they're in a fortress does it really take 16 years to plan out a defensive shceme ?Woudnt there be some sort of routine created for the soliders to follow? Arent there other commanders+soliders ?
    I'm not saying that she never has time, but she has got less time than most other fighters, and let's not forget that HR never was particulary interested in training her fighting skills in the first place and with GJ around she just doesn't have a reason to train a lot. Plus, training to keep ones skills at a constant level also should take some time.

    As for how busy she is, during the final part of ROCH it is mentioned that neither GJ or HR knew that the Condor Hero really was YG because they were to busy with family/Mongols to stay up to date on the happenings in the fighting world, and considering how famous the Condor Hero was at the time she really must have had no free time at all.

    Originally posted by duguxiaojing

    No HR did not teach YG anything usefull because she was afraid YG would end up like his father notice how she was teaching YG to become a scholar not a warrior that time could easily have been spent teaching YG how to fight.

    Ok so now i c your point ZYC while everyone else was busy some with jobs even more imprtant and demanding than HR they were still able to improve because they had other people running their sh!t right? What kind of important "things" did HR have to do that GJ did not have to do at XY? If GWM and 1deng could have other people helping them out HR cant? Ok i'l give u benefit and say HR NEVER trains AT ALL i mean thats what your suggesting right? Every second of every day is COMPLETELY FULL AND USED UP for 8-10 years does that sound reasonable? I mean how long does she have to baby her kids before she cuts the cord? OK fine even then she still has 6-8 years of extra training. HR never stopped training before the 16 year split neither has GJ why would she suddenly stop?

    I agree ZBT loves martial arts but do u think he'll give up playing pranks to train? The only reason why he practiced so hard on PBI was because he was stuck there with nothing to do+added on to th fact that he wanted to defeat HYS. IF ZBT was so dedicated to training why was he not up to the greats level during the first MT.HUA tournament? He obviously a martial arts genius+he's older as well you don think he would be at the greats level if he trained as hard?
    HR would stop because she never liked training in the first place and because she thinks her husband is already the worlds best martial artist, it would make much more sense for her to keep improving her strong point, knowledge, while letting her husband improve his strong point, martial arts. Let's not forget that by the end of ROCH she actually had to fight what, 5 times during the last 30 years?

    Taking this all into account, even if she had all the time in the world to train her martial arts, would HR not actually spend her time with her family, or doing things she actually likes doing or is using all the time like mathematics, literature, strategy or music, instead of wasting her time training when she never will have to seriously fight again as long as she can keep the Mongols away?

    ZBTs playing pranks usually seemed to involve his martial arts in the first place, why shouldn't he spend all of his remaining time training so that he can make even more spectacular pranks? Plus, the reason he wasn't as good as the other greats at the first Mt. Hua tournament was because he didn't have the L/R technique, the main reason why he became a great IMHO, yet, it was only after he learned this skill in combination with his Vaccant Fist and the 9yin skills that he became a great.

    Originally posted by duguxiaojing

    And how was HR more busy than WCY? At one point WCY was so busy fighting day and night against the jin army that LCY was able to surpass him(according to what was passe down to XLN i dont how reliable this is) yet after WCY was defeated and LCY got sick after some hard dedication he was able to surpass her. Again he was fighting day and night and he still did not gain much improvement. WCY spent most his life fighting Jin soliders before this event he was able to build his skills to an incrdible level. Saying that HR was more busy than WCY(during the early parts of his life) dosent even make sense.
    I always had the impression LCY was able to surpass WCY because he was busy making plans and strategys against the Jin army and had no time to think about regular training, while XLN managed to exceed HR because HR was busy making plans and strategys against the Mongols and raising her children and running her household while at the same time not beeing really interested in improving her fighting skills in the first place.

    Let's not forget that WCY had good rivals in LCY and the remaining greats and as everyone know rivals are always great for ones improvement, whereas HRs only rival was always comparing knowledge, not fighting skills with her, and in case of a serious problem she could always rely on her husband to do the fighting.

    Originally posted by superboy
    HR's internal energy was at least in the level of LMC to began with, probably more too. Actually, how busy can defending XY and having 3 kids be if we average out over a 16 year period? It wasn't like the Mongols invaded ever once a week. There was a very long time that the Mongol stopped attacking. She have no political position and it would be improbable that she was planning over a decade. People like HYS studies math, literature, medicine, etc plus having naughty daughter like HR didn't hinder his progress compare to the other Greats. So did GLFW, H7G, 1 Deng who all would at least have the same amount of affairs or more to take care of compare to HR. XLN never had HR's internal energy earlier in ROCH, and probabaly would have far less at the end.
    As I already said, LMCs internal energy cultivation method was inferior to XLNs in the first place, yet she doesn't seem inferior to HR in inner energy, why shouldn't XLN be able to have as much inner power as HR? You don't think that HR would rather be studying math, literature and so on instead of her fighting skills? I don't know about GLFW, but H7G was always said to come and go as he pleased, and as for how much free time 1Deng had, let's take another emperor of Dali as comparison, pansy boy DYs father. He sure was busy, but not with running Dali but with women and then fighting, I imagine 1Deng was much the same except that he was more interested in fighting than women, unlike HR who never much liked fighting in the first place.

  13. #53
    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by longdong
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the L/R technique isn't actually a set/style of skills, but rather a unique way of being able to let your brain and body act as two independent people, correct? So, although the theory of L/R tech would not confuse HR, however, she is being attacked with QZ and AT techniques. Therefore, HR would have to be able to handle these techniques, which when combined have no weakness.
    True that L/R will be an imitation of two persons doing QZ and AT techniques, however, it will not have the same impact as actual two persons (YG and XLN) doing it. It will give the opponent more trouble but it is still ONLY one person doing it. When YG and XLN are doing the combined techniques together, they can help each other covering each other's weakness, when YG is in front, XLN can be in the back; when XLN attack from left, YG can attack from the right; when YG attacks the lower area, XLN can compensate with attacking the top area, thus the combined techniques really can cover and complement each other weaknesses.

    But with only one person, you have to admit that one person ONLY has one body, thus it WILL NOT be as lethal, agile and move as there are really two person there. Your two arms and two legs are unfortunately attached to your torso and has the biological limitation. At any given time, you can ONLY attack your opponent in one direction, even though your two arms executes different moves.

    And again, it is not without weakness. It is without weakness when performed by both YG and XLN. But there are still these limitation and don't forget stamina. XLN was only able to withstand GWM for a short moment, had the fight continues, she would have lost the fight regardless of the L-R techniques.

    Originally posted by longdong
    I disagree, with XLN lightness kungfu, she would literally run circles around HR and at a safe distance away. While doing so, she would be able to call the bees and use the needles.[/B]
    How many times do we all have repeat to you ? Bees don't have any effects on HR.

    XLN can run circles alright… but HR can set a quick trap or trick her.

    Originally posted by longdong
    Agreed, HR can fend off the bees. However, while running at a safe distance from HR, XLN calls her bees into attack. While HR is distracted, the needles come flying at her. Furthermore, XLN comes circling around while attacking as if she's two people.
    [/B]

    How about before XLN can run away, HR shouts 'Guo er is dead.' XLN was stunned and XLN paralized her easily with a poke using a dog beating stick technique.The probability of such easy trick used by HR is much higher than XLN calling the bees and throwing needles, HR will think of way to prevent that, since XLN is a much dumber one.


    Originally posted by longdong
    Agreed. Take Z3F for example, in his later years, he stayed within the confines of WuDang, he wasn't aware of the ongoings of the world, but you wouldn't say he was stupid.
    [/B]
    ZSF roamed jiang hu for many many years and was undefeated and he is obviously very street smart after escaping from Shaolin temple. XLN spent her entire life in the ancient tomb before YG finally took her out of there, and then she spent another 16 years secluding herself again, and possibly more seclusion at the end of ROCH until she died. XLN didn't know anything about society and how real people in the outside world act and even when she's outside, she was having difficult time with her narrow-minded personality and simple thoughts

  14. #54
    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zhen Yu Cao
    You seem to have this impression that HR actually is a great level fighter. SHE IS SLOWER. XLN can call bees from a distance, at the beginning -_-. She also has projectiles, she also has incredible speed, she also has to very well wielded swords. It's not gonna happen, HR won't come up with some kind of trick to win if it's 'JUST' a fight. All HR can do is try to make the most of what she knows, and that's exactly what DBS is about. It is the epitome of arts that depend on a person's application. That is why HR is anygood in the first place.
    QQR's lightness of kung fu is faster than the 4 Greats, is he better ? No.

    Just because XLN is faster. it does not mean anything.

    HR has the brain, the experience, and the inner power to overcome XLN.

  15. #55
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MisterM



    As I already said, LMCs internal energy cultivation method was inferior to XLNs in the first place, yet she doesn't seem inferior to HR in inner energy, why shouldn't XLN be able to have as much inner power as HR? You don't think that HR would rather be studying math, literature and so on instead of her fighting skills? I don't know about GLFW, but H7G was always said to come and go as he pleased, and as for how much free time 1Deng had, let's take another emperor of Dali as comparison, pansy boy DYs father. He sure was busy, but not with running Dali but with women and then fighting, I imagine 1Deng was much the same except that he was more interested in fighting than women, unlike HR who never much liked fighting in the first place.
    True, LMC have an inferior cultivation compare to XLN, but, XLN had never had stronger internal energy than her. Because of her younger age, she is still weaker than LMC in the internal energy department. And during the 16 years seperation, she had not trained at all. Even if we say that HR slacked off and didn't train rigorously, she would not totally cut off her training. Just improbable. XLN also never liked fighting, that is why she stopped. Even DY's father have stuff to do. Is that what he said when he told Madamn Ma why he left? And he isn't even the king. Seriously, being a king got a lot affairs for you to take care off. You can only find a momentary subtitute, but it is work time after that. If you don't, you are probably going to lose your country. OYF got is White Camel Mountain. H7G got his clan with 300,000 members. There can only be a limited extent that he can procrastinate. GLFW need to lead the Tibet temple and got the position of being Monolia's protector. I don't believe that these obligations hinders that much. I mean, having political positions, leading a sect/clan, being a parent, etc. is so common. You don't expect being a hermit is essential if you want to make sufficient improvements right?
    Last edited by superboy; 04-19-04 at 07:50 PM.
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  16. #56
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that she never has time, but she has got less time than most other fighters, and let's not forget that HR never was particulary interested in training her fighting skills in the first place and with GJ around she just doesn't have a reason to train a lot. Plus, training to keep ones skills at a constant level also should take some time.
    I dont remember that part but does that mean she has no time to train or because she spent all her time in the XY? GX and GF(at first i think) did not know that YG was the condor hero either actually im dont think they heard of him and GX did not even know who YG was and how busy were they? Besides we are pretty sure GJ improved so if GJ had time why not HR?U even said that u belived that HR had sometime to train. XLN in the other hand just plain out did not train.



    HR would stop because she never liked training in the first place and because she thinks her husband is already the worlds best martial artist, it would make much more sense for her to keep improving her strong point, knowledge, while letting her husband improve his strong point, martial arts. Let's not forget that by the end of ROCH she actually had to fight what, 5 times during the last 30 years?
    This is your belief its not a fact i dont see any reason for HR not to train. I dont think HR was the type to hide behind GJ either. Why would she just stop training when she continued to practive before the 16 years split? How many battles did GJ go through in ROCH?3or 4 including the one palm exchange with GWM?wats your point? It dont see the logic behind her not training because GJ is powerful. Her father was one of the worlds most powreful martial artist why did she learn martial arts at all in the first place?Also u guys seem to assume that HR is not a great fighter. In the end of the book besides the newly instated 5 greats XLN was the only one at HR level. At the end of the 16 years split JY himself says shes a top tier fighter.




    ZBTs playing pranks usually seemed to involve his martial arts in the first place, why shouldn't he spend all of his remaining time training so that he can make even more spectacular pranks? Plus, the reason he wasn't as good as the other greats at the first Mt. Hua tournament was because he didn't have the L/R technique, the main reason why he became a great IMHO, yet, it was only after he learned this skill in combination with his Vaccant Fist and the 9yin skills that he became a great.
    I dont know what your talking about in the first paragraph. He roamed around making trouble for a while i believe he has plenty of time to practice and probally did but nothing like he did on PBI. He had not invented his vacant fist or lr technique before first mt wah tournament due to the fact that he was not as dedicated. Duirng his time at PBI his martial arts excelled because he had nothing else to do. I remember one person mentioning that ZBT said if he had not been stuck at PBI his martial arts would not have been so high so is dedication that kept him out of being a top 5 fighter pre ROCH.


    I always had the impression LCY was able to surpass WCY because he was busy making plans and strategys against the Jin army and had no time to think about regular training, while XLN managed to exceed HR because HR was busy making plans and strategys against the Mongols and raising her children and running her household while at the same time not beeing really interested in improving her fighting skills in the first place.
    No it was stated that during the time LCY surpassed WCY, WCY was fighting day and night against Jin army. This is not the case for HR or GJ. I never read LOCH but in ROCH HR did not seem to be the type to hide behind GJ. If XLN is more powerful than HR it has to be before the 16 years since she made no progress while she trapped at bottom of cliff. XLN martial arts jumped in a short period of time due to the ingenuity of PHOJM sword play with LR tehcnique so her technique had huge boost but her inner power is still the same.

    As I already said, LMCs internal energy cultivation method was inferior to XLNs in the first place, yet she doesn't seem inferior to HR in inner energy, why shouldn't XLN be able to have as much inner power as HR? You don't think that HR would rather be studying math, literature and so on instead of her fighting skills? I don't know about GLFW, but H7G was always said to come and go as he pleased, and as for how much free time 1Deng had, let's take another emperor of Dali as comparison, pansy boy DYs father. He sure was busy, but not with running Dali but with women and then fighting, I imagine 1Deng was much the same except that he was more interested in fighting than women, unlike HR who never much liked fighting in the first place.
    I believe that XLN did not have even LMC inner power. I'm pretty sure she didn't master JM inner power either. XLN inner power was around YG level before he had torrent training. YG inner power was shallow before dugu training so i believe XLN should be as well. Although he's power increased fast(prbly due to jade bed) he was definitely below HR. Even in beggining of novel HR's inner power was said to contain alot of force and at the time she was only....27-28??? years old(due to training by the way). When XLN learned LR technique her inner power was proboally slightly better than YG before torrent training her martial arts were on par with YG(at this time YG would still get beat by LMC). so i doubt XLN(martial arts and inner power) was at LMC level had it not been for lr tech. It's a very powerful technique that gave her such a huge jump in martial arts.
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 04-20-04 at 01:35 AM.

  17. #57
    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Even after YG and XLN got out of the ancient tomb for the first and practice parts of 9 Yin and the heart jade manual, YG said that their martial arts are still pale in comparison to GJ and HR.

    XLN got a short boost and the element of surprise (when fighting GWM) when she was taught a quick fix of L-R technique by ZBT, but her martial arts level and inner power is still the same. The difference is after she knew L-R technique she was able to imitate performing the QZ and AT sword technique by herself without YG around, however, it DOES NOT the same as if YG was there. It can only give a short term boost by creating diversion and confusion, not to mention XLN's inner power is not deep and strong.

    From this point until the end of the novel (particularly during the 16 years of separation), XLN's martial arts and inner power development did not progress at all. She said it herself.

  18. #58
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    Despite whatever level Huang Rong was at in ROCH, i think she has much more potential than Xiao Long Nu in mastering martial arts. The problem is that Huang Rong is NOT interested in martial arts.

    At the beginning of LOCH, she only perfected one type of martial arts. Even when Hong Qigong was teaching her martial arts [when they first met that is, not DBS], jin yong stated that despite not being interested and not putting much effort into learning the martial arts, she still managed to perfect the skills that he taught her. Huang Rong is extremely talented, the only problem is that she's more interested in the four arts and the mazes and formations [like on Peach Blossom Island]. She only learnt the DBS perfectly because she had to- as the new leader of the beggar clan.

    All through LOCH, the only time jin yong stated that Huang Rong actually vigorously trained was when she, GJ and H7G was stuck on the island with AYF and his son. And that was because she had to learn the 9 Yin martial arts with Kwok Jing for survival. If she can't be bothered to train in LOCH when she had all this free time [esp whilst GJ was vigorously practising HL18 Palms], i don't think she would be bothered to seriously train in ROCH when she had all this stuff on her mind- the mongols, GF etc

    Xiao Long Nu on the other hand is constantly training. That's all she and YG ever did in the tomb. That's all XLN ever does- keep bees, play qin and practise martials. XLN always practises martial arts. I don't believe for a second that she didn't train vigourously in the valley in those 16 yrs because she invented a new martial arts for pete's sake [unless this was ROCH83 frabrication. I've read LOCH but not ROCH so info might be blurred].

    Example

    Let's compare HR and XLN when they were 18.

    At 18

    HR- DBS and 9 Yin
    XLN- Ancient Tomb Techniques

    HR wins

    Now inevitably you are going to argue that XLN doesn't have the L/R technique yet and also hasn't learn Jade Maiden technique or combined the Jade Maiden and Quan Zhen swordplay with L/R technique. I.e. XLN is at a disavantage because she has not reached her full potential.

    That's the same as comparing XLN who vigorously trained to a stressed out and not-training-all-day-in-martial arts HR. It's simply unfair.

    So it's unfair to compare Huang Rong to XLN without considering these above factors. Does HR have the ability to beat XLN if we evened the playing field i.e. HR gets a jade bed [which increases her internal energy by ten-fold], practises martial arts vigorously and doesn't have worries about beggar clan and invading mongols?

    Answer: definately.

  19. #59
    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kara
    I don't believe for a second that she didn't train vigourously in the valley in those 16 yrs because she invented a new martial arts for pete's sake [unless this was ROCH83 frabrication. I've read LOCH but not ROCH so info might be blurred.
    Better believe it because it's stated in the novel. She did not make any progress at all.

  20. #60
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    At the beginning of LOCH, she only perfected one type of martial arts. Even when Hong Qigong was teaching her martial arts [when they first met that is, not DBS], jin yong stated that despite not being interested and not putting much effort into learning the martial arts, she still managed to perfect the skills that he taught her. Huang Rong is extremely talented, the only problem is that she's more interested in the four arts and the mazes and formations [like on Peach Blossom Island]. She only learnt the DBS perfectly because she had to- as the new leader of the beggar clan.
    She's mastered more than just DBS stick though. Even if she she did not pratice any 9 yin( i doubt it since she's able to reonize and name 9yin techs+its stated that shes vknowledgable of 9yin as well) she was matching OTF with unamed palm(from the way it was descriped it was proboally a PBI tech) .When she was about to hit GWM, GWN would not underestimate her since he knew that "she ahd excelled in martial arts from both h7G and HYS.

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