By the end of HSDS, was Z3F still the best fighter?

[rabadi]

In the beginning of HSDS, Z3F was arguably the best fighter of the era. He managed to capture one of Xuan Ming Elders with ease. That *probably* shows how good he was. Yet, by the end of HSDS, was he still the best fighter? How would he compare to ZWJ by then? Would he be able to capture one of Xuan Ming Elders as easy as before if he was to do so again, taking consideration that Xuan Ming Elders should probably improve during all those years?

[immakiku]

As the book doesn't say the elders got any new fighting manuals, I'd have to assume that they progressed linearly. Z3F would most likely also progress in the at least (meaning he'd probably progress more quickly) the same way. Even ten years of difference (in which Z3F wouldn't advance) wouldn't make up for the age difference.

I don't really know how to compare ZWJ to Z3F. You can't really ask for who'd win a fight between the two: no matter how much skill Z3F has, his neigong-powered attacks would be absorbed by 9 Yang. I don't think ZWJ has enough experience to consistently land powerful blows on Z3F either. That'd make it seem like a tie. A better way to compare would probably be to see how they would fight other top-level fighters.

During the various encounters ZWJ had with the elders, he didn't really easily gain the advantage. On the other hand, that first encounter between one of the elders and Z3F, I don't think the elder was fighting his best. He was dressed as a mere soldier to probably conceal his identity because he couldn't have possibly beat Z3F either way. If he'd fought with all his power, Z3F would recognize him as someone to capture and keep a good watch on. That'd eliminate any chance he has of escaping.

The only other time Z3F really showed his power (as far as I know), he was backstabbed/surprised by that Shaolin monk (Kong Xiang?). He took a pretty heavy hit at that time. If it had been ZWJ receiving the hit, he probably wouldn't even be damaged (9 Yang auto-protect).

[sixdays]

i'd say that Z3F has a very good chance of remaining the best fighter. i think we all agree that Z3F's only competition is ZWJ, so let's look at his potential of being better than Z3F.

ZWJ had incredible potential, and i think if he had been tutored under Z3F for a few years he would definitely surpass Z3F. however, ZWJ never really remains under any teacher for guidance, and so all of his fighting is sort of impromptu. luckily, he has QKDLY so he can learn new tricks; however, he really doesn't have a disciplined training regimen, so he can't improve like Z3F who takes 9 months out of the year to go away by himself and train. there's no way that ZWJ will surpass Z3F while Z3F is still alive.

[Han Solo]

Considering how much ZBT, H7G, OYF, Yi Deng etc have aged between LOCH and ROCH; and the fact that they are only in their ?70s meant that a 100+ Z3F would have serious trouble maintaining his stamina and power throughout for the entire durations of a fight. Thus ZWJ wins by default.

[immakiku]

But Z3F's got that TaiJi stuff. That didn't look like it used too much stamina. Also his neigong was described as unfathomably (sp?) deep by ZWJ. Neigong, as I've come to think after exposure to all these series/books, is directly related to stamina.

[Candide]

Originally posted by Han Solo
Considering how much ZBT, H7G, OYF, Yi Deng etc have aged between LOCH and ROCH; and the fact that they are only in their ?70s

They were in their late 80s and 90s, actually.

I think ZSF would lose due to stamina issue.

[SkineePanda]

How many people did Z3F actually fought in the novel?

The "3 Saints of Kunlun".

He snuck behind one of the XuanMing elder, and tapped him on the shoulder

He beat me some Mongol soldiers on a boat

He smashed the imposter Shaolin monk's head

and that's about what I can remember. For that matter, did Z3F actually fight anyone significant in his life. It's been mentioned that anyone that has ever fought with Z3F has long died of old age. I don't think any of his disciples saw him fight neither. It seemed like he basically spent most of his life on Wudang Mt, being a hermit, studying martial arts, taoist philosophy, gaining enlightment, just being a sage. Not a whole lot of fighting in his known resume.

[TaiHan]

I think Z3F would lose; he is about 125 at the end of the HSDs that is really old.

Can't remember correctly here working on faded memory. ZBT when fight with YG ran out of breathe even when using a soft technique such as Vacant Fist; although he also used the demon subdueing fist, which is hard, but he didn't use it all the time.

[sixdays]

it'd be interesting. ZWJ shows a history of being technically greater than many of his opponents, yet losing because he cannot understand an opponent's techniques.

if he cannot pick up on the persian ming cult, or defeat the shaolin monks without learning shaolin kungfu, how will he stand up against Z3F if Z3F uses something besides tai chi fist and sword?

Z3F definitely has the edge in technique. however, it's just so damned hard to injure ZWJ...

i don't know, it would be a tough fight. but at any rate, i think Z3F is in contention to be the greatest fighter of his time.

[minutemanwayne]

I can't imagine the great and wise Zhang Sangfeng losing to the wishy-washy Zhang Wuji. If it was a prolonged fight ZSF would probably lose due to his old age and stamina. Not to mention ZWJ would be able to take more hits than ZSF thanks to his youth and robust internal energy. However I can't imagine ZWJ landing a single hit on ZSF, while ZSF would be able to land solid hits on ZWJ pretty easily. ZWJ's 9 Yang energy field is useless against a fighter with equal internal energy.

[Yang Guo]

the arguments about 9 Yang auto protect is true, but ZSF had also practiced a portion of 9 Yang... for 110+ years

I see it as a complete 5 year 9 Yang VS a partial century of 9 Yang

[immakiku]

We've never seen ZWJ injured after the monk's bag. We have seen Z3F injured though. That means his 9 Yang doesn't really have the complete protect function.

[Candide]

Originally posted by immakiku
We've never seen ZWJ injured after the monk's bag.

I've lost count of how many times he got injured after that.

[superboy]

I think I will give Z3F the upper hand. As long is it's not any internal energy competition which ZWJ will at least have an advantage in the field of stamina, Z3F's 80 or more years of training in theories of martial arts should give him an upper hand.

Originally posted by TaiHan
I think Z3F would lose; he is about 125 at the end of the HSDs that is really old.

Can't remember correctly here working on faded memory. ZBT when fight with YG ran out of breathe even when using a soft technique such as Vacant Fist; although he also used the demon subdueing fist, which is hard, but he didn't use it all the time.

I believe he wasn't using vacant fist that time because he ws trying to force YG using his Sad Palms.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by superboy
I believe he wasn't using vacant fist that time because he ws trying to force YG using his Sad Palms.

He was using Vacant Fist.

And what you mean not using Vacant Fist to force YG to use Sad Palms? In order to push someone to fight for real and to use his or her special technique, the opponent must use his best skill in this case it was the Vacant Fist.

[superboy]

He was using the Vancant Fist and Demon Subdueing palms to fight YG. But I don't think he was using the Vacant Fist when YG decided to give up. Vacant Fist isn't a technique that is destructive.

[- L1n -]

zsf wpuld win i can't see zwj winning, i don't even consider him a great level fighter let alone zsf. I'm noteven sure if zwj and beat yellow lady. So in conclusion after the roch era the greatest fighter is Zsf, folowed by yellow lady, Zwj and then Ling Wu Chong.



And that auto protect crap is preety useless against Zsf considering his internal energy is comparable, the only reason auto protect worked so good on zwj was becos everyone he fought had pansy i ternal energy, ik would like to see Zwj use auto protect to stand up against Gj's palm then we'll see if auto protect is reall that good.lol

[CC]

The best Tai Chi Master ever vs the only person who has mastered level 7 of QQDNY would be interesting.

I don't know if ZWJ's protective 9 Yang energy would stop a hit from someone with Z3F's level of internal cultivation. And if Z3F used a sword, nothing short of sweeper monk's field would work.

I would bet on Z3F. This guy is a martial genius who has spent the majority of 100 years practising, thinking and breathing martial arts theories. ZWJ doesn't have that kinda depth even though he is already incredible by any other standard.

[immakiku]

I just thought of an analogy . If Z3F and ZWJ were both cars, Z3F would be powered by hundreds of tons of gas whereas ZWJ would be powered by hundreds of solar panels. Makes a little sense, no? So rethinking this, Z3F would beat ZWJ in terms of neigong unless they fight nonstop for months. Then Z3F obviously outclasses ZWJ in terms of techniques.

However, if the techniques aren't used for a win quickly enough, ZWJ might use QQDNY to counter those techniques.

Again, I don't think running out of stamina would be a problem for either.

[superboy]

Yes, I think ZSF would not be short of techniques or experience. He invented so many ingeniuses techniques and stances for Wudang throughout his life.