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Thread: Most difficult character to pigeonhole in wuxia?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by aniking_8 View Post
    Qiu Chuji have bad temper and try blame others for his mistakes while Yideng care too much for a woman to isolate himself.
    He also allowed a child to die when it was within his power to save it.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    He also allowed a child to die when it was within his power to save it.
    I mentioned in my previous post that this incident was his ONE selfish act as a person. And if looking at the circumstances, I wouldn't blame 1-Deng. He really had no reason to save the child-- it was the love product of betrayal and insult.

    Plus, this one action doesn't make 1-Deng "evil", it just makes him human. This doesn't quite qualify him to be lumped into the "morally ambiguous" category.

  3. #23
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aniking_8 View Post
    Qiu Chuji have bad temper and try blame others for his mistakes while Yideng care too much for a woman to isolate himself.
    I whole-heartedly agree with you. That Cow Nose bastard is one of my least favorite character in LOCH. In fact he's probably the least favorite.

    The tragedy of Ox Village was entirely his making. He didn't have to kill those Jin guys right in front of the Yang and Guo family houses, but he did because (IMO) he wanted to show off his mad skeelz to his new fans. He had ample time to lead his pursuers away and kill them in a deserted area but he chose to wait for them to come.

    Then, he had the audacity to just leave like nothing happened. No attempt to think about whether he had just f'ed up his new fans real bad or not.

    Just a horrible person.

    I am not even counting the fact that his first instinct was to kill Bao Zhi Ruo after seeing that she was a consort in the Jin Palace or that he was a bad teacher.
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  4. #24
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    I haven't read the book - but based on the latest adaptation of BXJ by ZJZ - Chongzhen and An Jianqing, among others.
    May not be the case with the book versions, but the incarnations of these two in that particular series seem to me like quite ambiguous characters.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    The tragedy of Ox Village was entirely his making. He didn't have to kill those Jin guys right in front of the Yang and Guo family houses, but he did because (IMO) he wanted to show off his mad skeelz to his new fans. He had ample time to lead his pursuers away and kill them in a deserted area but he chose to wait for them to come.

    Then, he had the audacity to just leave like nothing happened. No attempt to think about whether he had just f'ed up his new fans real bad or not.

    Just a horrible person.

    I am not even counting the fact that his first instinct was to kill Bao Zhi Ruo after seeing that she was a consort in the Jin Palace or that he was a bad teacher.
    The tragedy at Ox village was not really due to Qui Chuji. It was more because of Bao Zhi Ruo saving the Jin Wang Yeh! Who later came back to kill the Guo and Yang brothers so he can steal Bao away for himself.

    And as for his instinct to kill Bao... it made perfet sense. Bao was married to the man who destroyed her family, not to mention the Guo's. She was literally sleeping with the enemy! That's beyond treachery. Espcially knowing how much her previous husband Yan Tiexin dispised the Jins!

    As for being a bad teacher... yea he was. But he admitted defeat to the 7 freaks because he failed as a teacher.

  6. #26
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    The tragedy at Ox village was not really due to Qui Chuji. It was more because of Bao Zhi Ruo saving the Jin Wang Yeh! Who later came back to kill the Guo and Yang brothers so he can steal Bao away for himself.

    And as for his instinct to kill Bao... it made perfet sense. Bao was married to the man who destroyed her family, not to mention the Guo's. She was literally sleeping with the enemy! That's beyond treachery. Espcially knowing how much her previous husband Yan Tiexin dispised the Jins!

    As for being a bad teacher... yea he was. But he admitted defeat to the 7 freaks because he failed as a teacher.
    Cow Nose didn't know that it was WYHL who was behind the raid on Ox Village...

    He wanted to kill her simply because she married a Jin prince and seemingly forgot about her previous life as a poor hunter's wife. (More garbage neo-confused-is "morality" at play here)

    As for Bai Zhi Ruo. It’s no secret she is retarded, or rather, naïve and ignorant beyond comprehension, but she is after all, some sheltered woman who knows nothing about the world and she was born an idiot, so it’s hard to give her the bulk of the blame for the whole affair. (Even her name is literally “retarded” as I like to think it) Cow Nose is supposed to be a seasoned veteran of the jiang hu, and should know all about the dangers of the situation. He, of course, didn’t care, because he is an inconsiderate and arrogant jerk.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    Cow Nose didn't know that it was WYHL who was behind the raid on Ox Village...

    He wanted to kill her simply because she married a Jin prince and seemingly forgot about her previous life as a poor hunter's wife. (More garbage neo-confused-is "morality" at play here)

    As for Bai Zhi Ruo. It’s no secret she is retarded, or rather, naïve and ignorant beyond comprehension, but she is after all, some sheltered woman who knows nothing about the world and she was born an idiot, so it’s hard to give her the bulk of the blame for the whole affair. (Even her name is literally “retarded” as I like to think it) Cow Nose is supposed to be a seasoned veteran of the jiang hu, and should know all about the dangers of the situation. He, of course, didn’t care, because he is an inconsiderate and arrogant jerk.
    Agree that QCJ is arrogantd inconsiderate at times. But I don't see any problem with the "neo-confused-is morality" of the time. No offense to anyone using this next comparison: But imagine QCJ as a Jew who saw Bao in the arms of Hitler. First instinct is to KILL. And I wouldn't blame him.

    I personally rather enjoyed QCJ as a character in the beginning... until I found out that he was actually just a side character -_-

    The way JY painted him out at the start of the novel, you'd think "man! These QZ taoists kick arse! Go Han's, take out the Jin's!!!!"

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    Qui Chuji also can't teach good disciplines making them turn against their sect and do horrible stuffs. The only thing good about him is he respect his master and martial uncle.

  9. #29
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Agree that QCJ is arrogantd inconsiderate at times. But I don't see any problem with the "neo-confused-is morality" of the time. No offense to anyone using this next comparison: But imagine QCJ as a Jew who saw Bao in the arms of Hitler. First instinct is to KILL. And I wouldn't blame him.

    I personally rather enjoyed QCJ as a character in the beginning... until I found out that he was actually just a side character -_-

    The way JY painted him out at the start of the novel, you'd think "man! These QZ taoists kick arse! Go Han's, take out the Jin's!!!!"
    Cow nose didnt see her in WYHL's arms. He only saw that she was a consort in the palace. She could have been forced for all he knows. But of course, to Cow Nose and all Neo-Confused-ists out there, the woman SHOULD kill herself rather than let another man other than her husband touch her.

    I am not sure what Confused-Is thought about this, since I don't even remember women being mentioned in the Analects. (There probably is a mention here and there,but I don't recall it)
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    Cow nose didnt see her in WYHL's arms. He only saw that she was a consort in the palace. She could have been forced for all he knows. But of course, to Cow Nose and all Neo-Confused-ists out there, the woman SHOULD kill herself rather than let another man other than her husband touch her.

    I am not sure what Confused-Is thought about this, since I don't even remember women being mentioned in the Analects. (There probably is a mention here and there,but I don't recall it)
    That's the biggest problem of QCJ... he just jumps to conclusions and acts hastily. That's definitely his flaw, but I don't think it makes him moraly innept. It just makes him reckless.

    As for the Analects, I don't recall as well. But Neo-confucian is kind of a warped version anyway. However, I do stand on the side that Bao should've killed herself rather than let a JIN man touch her. Which she actually does along with Yan Tei Xing later on, that was how she was redeemed.

    Much like how XF had no choice but to suicide. He had to, otherwise he'd be branded as a traitor to the Kitans.

  11. #31
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    However, I do stand on the side that Bao should've killed herself rather than let a JIN man touch her. Which she actually does along with Yan Tei Xing later on, that was how she was redeemed.
    Are you a man or a woman? I think that's a really warped view.

    While I don't like Bao Zhi Ruo at all, it has nothing to do with her marrying a Jin man.

    I don't think she should have killed herself, especially since she was pregnant with child. When I was younger, I used to think in a similar way: how could she settle down with the national enemy?? (I still didn't think she should kill herself then either) Then again, I wholeheartedly disagree with the "marry a chicken, follow a chicken; marry a dog, follow a dog" mentality.

    As I have gotten older, I now think that she really had no viable alternatives. I sympathize with her plight. What was she supposed to do but to follow this man who COULD protect her? Yeah she was dumb to not suspect that he had something to do with the raid, but she's born idiotic, she can't help it. Cmon, this is a lady who has a pet zoo in her backyard! Check out the people in real life who own like dozens of animals in their homes, they are nuts!

    Which brings us back to the guy who should have known better, as I wrote: Cow Nose.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

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  12. #32
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    I'm a guy.

    And I have analyzed Bao's situation as well, but I do not feel for her nor her plight. Although it's understandable to some degree what she did (the whole living with the enemy who can provide for her and her child), it's just not something I can't relate to or tolerate.

    Let's use GJ's mom instead. I personally believe she would've suicided instead of living with WYHL. She has the "bravado"... the "ganas" to do things like that. I mean, even after living with the mongols her WHOLE life, she was able to suicide right in front of GJ to make a point-- damn them whom invade us! And that I respect immensely (even got a little teary eyed).

    But back to QCJ-- with the above, you can see why I don't really agree with you on him being a stubborn jacka$$. I think he is definitely flawed, but again, I actually like his character in the novel.

    Subtopic: That's quite unfair how many people berrate QCJ for his "rash behavior" but everyone likes HYS. If HYS wasn't one of the 4 Greats, he'd probably receive the same negative sentiments.

  13. #33
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    I guess we'll just have to disagree on Bao. You would find your views much more appropriate for ancient China.

    I don't think it's a fair comparison to Li as an example that Bao was wrong to choose to live and raise her son. Li was captured by the man she knew for sure was responsible for her husband's death. It's understandable that she would show a lot of fight against him. And again, Bao, up until her death, I don't think she realized exactly how implicated WYHL was in the whole tragedy 18 yrs ago. If Li was "saved" by a Jin man, who's to say she would have killed herself?

    All Bao really did, as far as she is concerned, is that she remarried a man who was genuinely kind to her and raised her son. That's all. She didn't knowingly marry the guy who caused her husband's apparent death. Maybe you knock her for marrying a Jin prince, but for all she knew, it was the Song officials that were after her. WYHL was the only person she could turn to.

    Also, Bao killed herself as well at the end when it became apparent she couldn't leave with her old hubby. If she knew that WYHL was responsible in the beginning, she probably would have killed herself. I think that it would've been a bad choice if she decided to kill herself...

    "Everyone" does not like HYS. I personally don't like the LOCH HYS. I don't care about who's better than whom in kung fu. His kf level has nothing to do with my assessment of the character. Other than his disdain for Confused-ism, there's really nothing redeeming about the guy. But, at least he wasn't a self-righteous jerk like Cow Nose. And he's certainly correct that the so-called morality of Confused-ism have killed thousands times more people than he has ever done, even though HE is viewed as a monster by some while Confused-ist ideals is viewed as honorable.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    I guess we'll just have to disagree on Bao. You would find your views much more appropriate for ancient China.

    I don't think it's a fair comparison to Li as an example that Bao was wrong to choose to live and raise her son. Li was captured by the man she knew for sure was responsible for her husband's death. It's understandable that she would show a lot of fight against him. And again, Bao, up until her death, I don't think she realized exactly how implicated WYHL was in the whole tragedy 18 yrs ago. If Li was "saved" by a Jin man, who's to say she would have killed herself?

    All Bao really did, as far as she is concerned, is that she remarried a man who was genuinely kind to her and raised her son. That's all. She didn't knowingly marry the guy who caused her husband's apparent death. Maybe you knock her for marrying a Jin prince, but for all she knew, it was the Song officials that were after her. WYHL was the only person she could turn to.

    Also, Bao killed herself as well at the end when it became apparent she couldn't leave with her old hubby. If she knew that WYHL was responsible in the beginning, she probably would have killed herself. I think that it would've been a bad choice if she decided to kill herself...

    "Everyone" does not like HYS. I personally don't like the LOCH HYS. I don't care about who's better than whom in kung fu. His kf level has nothing to do with my assessment of the character. Other than his disdain for Confused-ism, there's really nothing redeeming about the guy. But, at least he wasn't a self-righteous jerk like Cow Nose. And he's certainly correct that the so-called morality of Confused-ism have killed thousands times more people than he has ever done, even though HE is viewed as a monster by some while Confused-ist ideals is viewed as honorable.
    Agree to disagree. But I do see what your saying. It's a matter of opinion and perspective on this one.

    And apologies for naturally assuming that "everyone" (and at the time of mention I did lump you into that category) would've liked HYS. It's just that HYS gets to enjoy a fairly good rep and the "cool eccentric" status while ohter charcters would've been scorned by many JY fans for the same actions. Personally, I liked HYS a lot... but I also liked QCJ as a sub-character.

    I guess for me, it's the fact that Bao was TOO ignorant as you've previously mentioned. She just didn't share that gumption that GJ's mother had. I think Li would've turned down a Jin man's help based on the sheer merit that her husband, who she loved dearly, also hated Jin's. Even if Bao didn't know about HYHL's involvement, she shouldn't have went home with him to be his consort.

    If I was a Han Chinese and I was watching my wife from the heavens, I would've spat blood and rolled in my grave if she went home with a Jin man. I might not require that my wife suicide, but I'd expect her to at least turn down the enemy. I've always respected characters who can say "Thanks, but no thanks. Even if I need help, I won't take it from YOU!"
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 04-14-09 at 11:40 AM.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Bao is a sheltered woman who needed care. She couldn't have survived well out there all alone, plus she's got a kid to think of.

    Some women, really just want to settle down and have a peaceful life where she would have a husband who loves and cares for her.

    Bao found one in WYHL, without realising he was the one who destroyed her family. Plus, he was willing to raise her son as his own without complaints. It's so hard to find a man like that no matter in modern days or ancient society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamii View Post
    i'd say alot of villains r evil but many r pushed into it.......like seng kwun - i'd do the same thing to get bak at the ming sect.
    Seng Kwun should move on and find another lover. With his position in Jiang Hu, I don't think he has any difficulty of finding a hottie that actually love him. YDT did not rape nor force his lover into marriage, she accepted to marry him. She was basically a gold digger.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 04-14-09 at 09:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    YDT did not rape nor force his lover into marriage, she accepted to marry him. She was basically a gold digger.
    Her father agreed to the marriage; I don't think she had much, if any, say in the matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    And he's certainly correct that the so-called morality of Confused-ism have killed thousands times more people than he has ever done, even though HE is viewed as a monster by some while Confused-ist ideals is viewed as honorable.
    Jiang Bao, you seem to have problem with confucianism and bashing it whenever you have a chance. Confucianism is not ideal in modern society, but the best you can get in ancient society. If you compare society of ancient china to ancient society of other countries that didn't practice confucius's beliefs, which is better?? I think that is a fair comparison. Do not compare Confucianism to modern values in first world countries that didn't exist in ancient time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    If you compare society of ancient china to ancient society of other countries that didn't practice confucius's beliefs, which is better?? I think that is a fair comparison. Do not compare Confucianism to modern values in first world countries that didn't exist in ancient time.
    Can you be more specific? Which ancient societies should we compare ancient China with? As far as I know, every ancient society has its good points and bad points. So, it's really hard to answer 'which is better' if we don't which society to compare with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    Can you be more specific? Which ancient societies should we compare ancient China with? As far as I know, every ancient society has its good points and bad points. So, it's really hard to answer 'which is better' if we don't which society to compare with.
    Any society that didn't practice confucianism.
    How about Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greek, Ancient society in Africa, Ancient Mongolia, ancient europe, ect... Ancient China was considered middle kingdom (center of the world), the most civilized society at the time, where the rest of the world wanna be like and envied.

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