LDA vs DG9J

[rabadi]

First of all, I'm not sure whether this topic has already been discussed before, and if so then my apology for repeating it. Secondly, I also haven't fully read the interesting thread Energy-breaking Stance in Dugu 9 Swords (maybe I'll read later on), so again if I repeat the question, I'm sorry.

Here is a quote from SOD's translation:

The old and the young went over the brilliant sword techniques in the Dugu Nine Swords atop the ?Cliff of Contemplation.?

They started from General Index Stance and went on with Sword-breaking Stance, Knife-breaking Stance, Spear-breaking Stance, Mace-breaking Stance, Whip-breaking Stance, Palm-breaking Stance, and Missile-breaking Stance all the way till the ninth stance, Energy-breaking Stance.

The Spear-breaking Stance included techniques to overcome long weapons such as long-handled spear, long-handled halberd, snake-shaped spear, staff, fanged cudgel, white wax stick, Buddhist monk?s staff, and Buddhist monk?s spade.

The Mace-breaking Stance was used to overcome short weapons such as steel club, iron mace, point-sealing peg, crutches, Emei[1] sting, dagger, war axe, iron plate, octagonal hammer, and iron awl.

The Whip-breaking stance was able to overcome flexible weapons such as long cord, whip, three-sectioned staff, chain spear, iron chain, fishing net, and meteor hammer.
Although each move was just one stance, it had endless variations. The more Linghu Chong learned, the more powerful it became when he comprehended the connections between each stance. The last three stances were the most difficult ones.

The Palm-breaking Stance overcame Kung Fu skills related to one?s fists, legs, fingers, and palms. If the opponent were brave enough to fight against a sword with bare hands, he had to have superb Kung Fu skills and that using a weapon or not was really no difference for him any more. There are many fist forms, leg forms, finger forms, and palm forms in the world, and all of them are very complex. The Palm-breaking Stance included techniques to overcome boxing and grappling, joint manipulation and point sealing, demon claw and tiger claw hands, iron sand divine palm, and the type of barehanded Kung Fu skills.

The word ?Missile? in the name of the Missile-breaking Stance included the many different kinds of missiles and projectiles. To be able to learn this stance, the practitioner must first learn the skill of distinguishing the type of the missile by ear. He not only should be capable of blocking the many kinds of missiles coming from the enemy with his long sword, but also redirecting the force in the missiles to send them back and injure the enemy with his own missiles.

When it came to the ninth stance, Energy-breaking Stance, Feng Qingyang only taught Linghu Chong the script and formula of how to practice it.

Feng Qingyang explained, ?This stance is used to overcome opponents who have great inner energy. The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation. When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn?t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques. The same sword technique from the same Huashan style sword art could have very different effect and power. It?s the same with the Dugu Nine Swords. Even though you have learned the sword techniques, if you can?t perfect your skills, you would still be no match for first-class elite fighters in today?s world. You have already entered the field. If you prefer to win than lose, go practice hard for another twenty years, then you will be capable of competing with the key players in the world.?

Now, my question is this: how does DG9J fare against LDA (Long Distance Attack, I think someone in this forum mentioned it before and I just borrow the term), considering the translation above that:
1. In the Palm-breaking Stance, there is *no mentioning* (of course, as usual, correct me if I'm wrong) that DG9J could counter long distance blast, like for example how could a DG9J practitioner break XF's palm blast?
2. In the Missile-breaking Stance, it seems to be more appropriate to block long distance missiles and projectiles, again not sure about palm blast.
3. Not sure about the Energy-breaking Stance.

Any thoughts?

[Han Solo]

First up, Missile breaking stances deals with weapons and not LDA.

Second, LHC used Palm breaking stance but that was in close range and in chapter 17(?).

Third, no one knows how the chi breaking stance works.

Logically, the range of attack for DG9J would be limited to the length of the sword unless one masters sword chi, and thus it is limited to say a few feets. So if LHC met DY who is standing 10 feets away and shooting 6MSJ, LHC cannot do anything at all.

[CC]

Thats why I think DG9J is over-rated. To master it you move beyond the 9 stances (as FCY stated, it really depends on your own interpretation - whether you want to go iron sword, wooden sword, flexible sword etc etc is up to you). DG9J doesnt have the answer, if you are good enough you better come up with your own way to defeat opponents with great chi.

And in any case, skills are relative. You can't have a cheesy I break all techniques and defy all natural laws no matter what kind of skill.

[- L1n -]

true chi breaking stance is so overated, we don't even see it. it's like saying humans can fly if they reach a certain level.

[philip]

DG9J doesnt have the answer, if you are good enough you better come up with your own way to defeat opponents with great chi.

but the whole thoery of Dugu 9 Jian is to break opponent's stances...so if you apply DG9J correctly, you should be able to come up w/ a counter. If you can't come up with one...then you can't say ur using dugu 9 sword, but instead a random waving of sword.

[CC]

Originally posted by philip
but the whole thoery of Dugu 9 Jian is to break opponent's stances...so if you apply DG9J correctly, you should be able to come up w/ a counter. If you can't come up with one...then you can't say ur using dugu 9 sword, but instead a random waving of sword.

Yeah but looking at how the 9th stance was explained, it was like OK fine do it anyway you want as long as it works.

In which case anybody can come up with an invincible martial art manual. Ok so I am oversimplifying it but you get the point.

Even the other stances, DG9J doesnt provide you with 100% of all you need to break the opponents stances. e.g. LHC could see the flaws in DFBB but he couldn't do anything about it. If he did not have power from Xi Xing and later YJJ he'll never get around to breaking it either (and its debatable even with YJJ at the end he could be fast enough still). So with DG9J's general index alone, you'll won't be really good without inner power cultivation.

[Ren Wo Xing]

That's true for all techniques though. How effective would, say, Xuan Tie Jian Fa be without internal energy? A lot less effective than DG9J, I'll tell you that!

[Stance]

Originally posted by CC

Even the other stances, DG9J doesnt provide you with 100% of all you need to break the opponents stances. e.g. LHC could see the flaws in DFBB but he couldn't do anything about it. If he did not have power from Xi Xing and later YJJ he'll never get around to breaking it either (and its debatable even with YJJ at the end he could be fast enough still). So with DG9J's general index alone, you'll won't be really good without inner power cultivation.

Yes, but the fault isn't with DG9J, but because LHC hasn't mastered DG9J.

As quoted earlier "Even though you have learned the sword techniques, if you can't perfect your skills, you would still be no match for first-class elite fighters in today's world. You have already entered the field. If you prefer to win than lose, go practice hard for another twenty years, then you will be capable of competing with the key players in the world."

So the method is there, but up to the person to be able to master it and use it wisely. LHC didn't learnt it for long and lacks the experience.

[Xiao Feng]

I share the same sentiments as CC. DG9J IS vastly overated by many. Just because there is a palm breaking stance doesnt mean that a DG9J pratitioner could stop "ALL" palm attacks. Qi breaking stance is even more ridiculously interpreted, some think that with this stance they could just break all qi attacks. Its ability does not lie in the "stances" so to speak but in the practitioner. An elite fighter will still be able to do what LHC could do. Say GJ could match LHC sword for sword for example. Dugu Qiu Bai was a phenom, he had this crazy theorem and he was able to put it into practise, not everyone could understand it fully let alone put it into correct use.

[Dirt]

Don't all great kung fu masters have one spot on their bodies that is completely vulnerable? That if you hit it, they lose all their chi? Wouldn't chi breaking stance essentially be attacking all parts of your opponents body as fast as you can and see where their movements protect the most and then going for that spot?

[philip]

That's true for all techniques though. How effective would, say, Xuan Tie Jian Fa be without internal energy? A lot less effective than DG9J, I'll tell you that!

yep...i agree!
can't blame dugu 9 sword if LHC isn't able to master it or have enough qi.

Its ability does not lie in the "stances" so to speak but in the practitioner. An elite fighter will still be able to do what LHC could do. Say GJ could match LHC sword for sword for example. Dugu Qiu Bai was a phenom, he had this crazy theorem and he was able to put it into practise, not everyone could understand it fully let alone put it into correct use.

i'm not so sure GJ could match LHC in swordsmanship..esp if they are on the same qi level.

but, the catch to dugu 9 swords is that...if ur not talented enough (and quick enough to come up w/ stances), you can't use dugu 9 sword anywayz...so it doesn't take away from the effectiveness of dugu 9 sword

[- L1n -]

lol gj might not = lhc in swordmanship but i am certain lhc would get his *** spanked if yg turns up.

[superboy]

In terms of swordmanship, GJ probably isn't professional, but I bet he can knock LWC's sword with his superior internal energy.

[Xiao Feng]

GJ's swordsmanship might not be up to LHC standards but i bet he is still fast enough to spank LHC. Thats my point.

At the end of the day, DG9J might have "everything under the sun" breaking stance but it still wouldnt count for shite if u r not fast enough. Unless u r Dugu of course which means u r "invincible"

[superboy]

I'm not certain how good DuGu is. after all, WCY was also invincible during his lifetime.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Du Gu was not only "invincible", he was so far above the other fighters of his time that never in his life, according to FCY, had he had any need to make a SINGLE defensive movement.

[- L1n -]

now that bit is so bs, when u attack an attack thats counter as defending, so if dufu never had to make a defensive movemet means his always first to attack and knocks them out straight away.

[rabadi]

So what's the final verdict? DG9J fares not too good against LDA?

[philip]

GJ's swordsmanship might not be up to LHC standards but i bet he is still fast enough to spank LHC. Thats my point.

no...that you are comparing LHC to GJ...not dugu 9 swords to lets say, XL18Z. if you had a LHC and GJ w/ equal internal energy, then you can compare skill (ie. dugu 9 sword vs. XL18Z).

dugu 9 sword is a sword technique/skill...not an internal energy worker.....it's probably one of the most effective SKILLS out there.

[CC]

Originally posted by Ren Wo Xing
Du Gu was not only "invincible", he was so far above the other fighters of his time that never in his life, according to FCY, had he had any need to make a SINGLE defensive movement.

If he never never had to make a defensive move, why would he ever have created a 'projectile breaking stance'whereby you need to deflect and re-direct projectiles. In fact why would he create 9 stances of 'breaking moves' when all he really needed was crazy DFBB speed combined with 1 attacking move.

I just think FCY was doing hero worship when talking.