I can't believe Sing Kwun's lover (Yeung Ding Teen's wife)

[Ken Cheng]

Recently, we've discussed whether Sing Kwun and/or his disciple, Golden-Haired Lion King Tse Tsun (both from HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE), were justified in their revenge killings. One thing that none of us have considered is the culpability of Sing Kwun's lover, who was also Ming Cult Leader Yeung Ding Teen's wife, in this whole affair.

I, for one, have a hard time just believing this character. One moment, she's practically gloating about how she and her lover Sing Kwun are having a secret tryst behind Yeung Ding Teen's back, but when Yeung discovers the tryst and kills himself in a fit of jealous rage (which is itself inexplicable behavior; angry jealous people tend to kill the people who are making them jealous, not *themselves*!), she's immediately so remorseful that she commits suicide. It's not her change of heart that is unbelievable (people do, after all, sometimes regret mistakes they make), but it's how quickly and completely she changes her mind. How does one go from gloating about being sneaky while having a tryst to being suicidally repentent about it in about THREE MINUTES? Unless the adaptations are condensing several months or years of emotional anguish and conflict into three minutes of screen time, realism in the depiction of human behavior has been thrown completely out the window here.

[Suet Seung]

Hmm...Ken could you briefly explain to me how she was married to Yeung Ding Tin but still continue her relations with Cheng Kun? Did she love her husband at all? I don't read HSDS but from the adaptations she always seem demure and was *sort of* backing away from Cheng Kun or rather afraid of her husband catching them red handed. And with YDT wasn't he in the midst of praticing his martial arts and caught them and somehow that killed him and not him commiting suicide? Err ...yeah I'm confused there.

[Demitre]

Was she forced into the marriage?

[Candide]

Originally posted by Demitre
Was she forced into the marriage?

Sort of. Yang was the leader of the Ming cult, 20 years her senior, rich and all powerful. Her parents obviously preferred him to Cheng Kun (bad pinyin there ^_^) who was a nobody. They convinced her that she would be much better off with Yang, and she eventually "believed" them and married Yang. Later she regretted that (that age difference must have been one of the reasons), and met Cheng Kun to have a bit of a rant, then things continued from there.

Yang did not commit suicide. He was practicing level 4 of QKDNY, when he caught them... He got a fire deviation and died. He did know that he didn't satisfy his wife and she was unhappy all the time (he mentioned this in the letter he wrote to the Ming cult before that) but I think he didn't know that she was betraying him right inside the holy cave of the cult.

It's not very clear whether his wife was really betraying him (ie doing it with Cheng Kun yadda yadda) or she was simply treating him as a soul mate as she was feeling unhappy and lonely. I think it might be the latter, as she kept telling Cheng Kun that she felt that she wasn't being fair to Yang for not telling him about why she was being unhappy but instead she was meeting another man behind his back.

[ToOn99]

Cheng Kun was not really nobody actually, he was quite famous in wulin, called Lightning Palm or something.

[Candide]

Originally posted by ToOn99
Cheng Kun was not really nobody actually, he was quite famous in wulin, called Lightning Palm or something.

He became famous after that. When his apprentice sister got married to YDT, he and she were about 20 years old (Yang was around 40). When he told the story on Brightness Peak, he was 70.

[kidd]

We don't know whether she really gloated or not. The story is told from CK's POV. Maybe CK was the only one gloating at that time.

[charbydis]

Not quite sure, but Cheng said that Yang persuaded the parents of the girl with money and power to marry their daughter to him, and being filial, Madame Yang consented.

I think the parents were either greedy for the Ming Sect's money, or afraid of the Ming Sect's power and fame.

My interpretation why Madame Yang commited suicide is:
- She was forced/persuaded into the marriage by her parents.
- She wanted to be a good wife, but she couldn't forget her first love, Cheng Kun.
- But does have feelings of repsect towards her husband, but she loves Cheng Kun.
- Yang Ding Tian was busy with Ming Sect matters and QKDNY, and she was lonely.
- Cheng Kun came after her and she couldn't resist the temptation, even though feeling guilty.
- Found out that her husband was eavesdropping and thus died of fire deviation.
- Feels ashamed of the infidelity since Yang Ding Tian treated her well, and she is supposed to be faithful to her husband and she "likes" him.
- Therefore commit suicide.

But i think Yang Ding tian did know of the affair going on. He wouldn't have been in the tunnel if he wasn't practising martial arts. And if he had just known of that day, he would have died immediately, instead of leaving a letter concerning his will.

He just wouldn't have time to:
- In the middle of QKDNY
- Hear wife and adulterer
- Get mad
- Stop practising QKDNY
- Write will
- Practise QKDNY again and die of fire deviation.

So I guess he knew beforehand, but I have no idea why he died of fire deviation. Practising martial arts in the tunnel where you know your wife is to meet her lover is not the normal thing to do.

[Suet Seung]

What are the causes of injury or death from fire deviation?

Could it be emotions that causes fire deviation? Like thats why XLN was emotionless because her martial arts required her to be?

[Candide]

Originally posted by Suet Seung
What are the causes of injury or death from fire deviation?

Could it be emotions that causes fire deviation? Like thats why XLN was emotionless because her martial arts required her to be?

Could be anything. The result is that the inner energy in your body is all over the place, running backwards or in circles When YDT had fire deviation, he was practicing level 4 of QKDNY, in which his Yin and Yang energy forces were switching places in his body (shown on his face as well). Because he was unable to control his anger, these forces went into the wrong places and there was blood coming out of his eyes, ears, nose and mouth... Not a pleasant thing to have, fire deviation...

Btw, you know the Sanskrit part of 9 yin... one of the reason why it's so valuable is that it has methods of turning certain fire deviations (eg when the practitioner tried too hard and failed -> got fire deviation) into great benefits for the practitioner. Those methods would boost the practitioner's inner energy significantly to the next level up. It's not to say that you should try to get fire deviation once you learn 9 Yin but high level parts in many neigong manuals are very hard to practice, and the practitioner usually has to give up at some stage because of fear of getting fire deviation. 9 Yin has the solutions to many of those.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by -NSX-
She was very capricious. One minute she said her sugar daddy was Yeung Ding Teen; the next minute she said it was Sing Kwun. BLAH!

That's the impression I got from the HSDS '86 TVB adaptation. When logical fallacies or character inconsistencies like this appear in series, however, I usually make the allowance that it's probably the screenwriters twisting things rather than something that Jin Yong overlooked.

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by Candide
He became famous after that. When his apprentice sister got married to YDT, he and she were about 20 years old (Yang was around 40). When he told the story on Brightness Peak, he was 70.

Sing Kwun would be famous before this. Consider that by the time of YDT's death, XX (Sing Kwun's disciple), have achieved a certain level of martial arts and became one of the four kings of the Ming Cult.

Also after the death of YDT and the killing of XX's family, Sing Kwun "became" a monk, and was lost to the wuxia world.

Therefore, it is likely that his fame as Sing Kwun would be higher before rather than after YDT's death.

[rabadi]

More or less, how old was SK when he committed crimes against XX?

[Candide]

Originally posted by Han Solo
Sing Kwun would be famous before this. Consider that by the time of YDT's death, XX (Sing Kwun's disciple), have achieved a certain level of martial arts and became one of the four kings of the Ming Cult.

Also after the death of YDT and the killing of XX's family, Sing Kwun "became" a monk, and was lost to the wuxia world.

Therefore, it is likely that his fame as Sing Kwun would be higher before rather than after YDT's death.

Chapter 19, when Sheng Kun was telling the story:

"I came to her wedding party, and as I drank the wedding wine, I swore that as long as I, Sheng Kun, could still breathe, I would kill YDT and destroy his cult. I have waited more than 40 years for this, today is when I achieve my goal, and can finally die a happy man."

Earlier he said that he was 70 years old. That means that he was in his early 20s when his simei got married. I don't think he was very famous then, and he definitely didn't have Xie Xun as his disciple then.

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

Madame yang just felt too sorry for his husband when he died like this

she won't have a happy life with sing kwun even she didn't commit suicide

[Da Bao]

I felt sorry for the guy... Finding out his wife's cheating on him... And not only that but in a holy area! He shouldn't regret not being able to give her the life she wanted.

[tape]

Out of curiousity, how did he write the letter so fast? I thought he fire-deviated, then burst out of the room and died. When did he find time to write his will?

[Candide]

The plan was to push the lady out of the cave, lock himself and Cheng Kun in, then duel to the death, so he wrote the letter beforehand and was probably revising his QKDNY for the last time before the fight but things went pear-shaped.