Regarding the Dragon Subduing Palms

[longdong]

With the help of his sworn brother XZ, XF revised the HL28Z into the HL18Z. Does that mean that the 18 palms version is more complete and refined? Did they combine some of the stances together? If so, would this mean that H7G and GJ also had the refined version. So where does that fit in with the declining martial arts theory? If the refined HL18Z declines, would it then become rough and raw like the HL28Z version?

[immakiku]

To me, decline in martial arts is either losing parts of a manual, slowly losing the correct interpretation and deviating from a style, or gradual losing of interest in practice and reduction in practice time.

[longdong]

Originally posted by immakiku
To me, decline in martial arts is either losing parts of a manual, slowly losing the correct interpretation and deviating from a style, or gradual losing of interest in practice and reduction in practice time.

If this is the case, than there wasn't a decline in the HL18Z that H7G and GF had since they both had all 18 parts and knew them inside out?

[immakiku]

There was a decline: three palms of the XL18Z were lost. Plus there has to be deviation from the original because as teacher passes it onto disciple, some intent will be lost. Generation after generation results in a pretty noticeable decline.

[sixdays]

it's true that the decline of martial arts is a noticeable trend --- but at the same time, every so often there seems to emerge a superior martial arts genius that is either able to "fill in the gaps" of lost kungfu, or simply create a new style of his own.

for the first group, H7G and YG definitely stand out. the version of HL18Z that H7G had was messy and broken; it was an incomplete version that had been passed down through the beggars' clan because no one could learn it. H7G spent much of his life as beggars' clan leader REPAIRING the HL18Z, so to speak. he created the rest of the stances (3 or more, i can't remember) and integrated the system in a whole.

YG obviously did the same with DGQB's ironsword technique, except that i think YG was even more impressive. whereas H7G had PART of the HL18Z technique, YG only had the training grounds and the sword itself; yet YG was still able to learn the whole technique. impressive in my book.

for the second group, i really have to give it to Z3F. he left shaolin knowing basically NO effective martial arts --- an incomplete (a third) of 9yang, and a pair of statues teaching him luohan fist. from this EXTREMELY humble beginning, he is able to create a set of martial arts that rivals any other in all of JY's universe. man, Z3F is great.

[longdong]

Originally posted by sixdays
it's true that the decline of martial arts is a noticeable trend --- but at the same time, every so often there seems to emerge a superior martial arts genius that is either able to "fill in the gaps" of lost kungfu, or simply create a new style of his own.

for the first group, H7G and YG definitely stand out. the version of HL18Z that H7G had was messy and broken; it was an incomplete version that had been passed down through the beggars' clan because no one could learn it. H7G spent much of his life as beggars' clan leader REPAIRING the HL18Z, so to speak. he created the rest of the stances (3 or more, i can't remember) and integrated the system in a whole.

YG obviously did the same with DGQB's ironsword technique, except that i think YG was even more impressive. whereas H7G had PART of the HL18Z technique, YG only had the training grounds and the sword itself; yet YG was still able to learn the whole technique. impressive in my book.

for the second group, i really have to give it to Z3F. he left shaolin knowing basically NO effective martial arts --- an incomplete (a third) of 9yang, and a pair of statues teaching him luohan fist. from this EXTREMELY humble beginning, he is able to create a set of martial arts that rivals any other in all of JY's universe. man, Z3F is great.

So H7G (and eventually GJ) had a complete adapted/improvised version of the HL18Z. Any indication if he was actually able to recreate the missing 3 palms or did he come up with 3 palms that seemed to fit?

[sixdays]

here's something that may interest you. philip posted this up a while back, it's a translation of H7G explaining HL18Z to GJ in LOCH:

Hong Qi-Gong said, “I said to you, ‘Force your opponent to have nowhere to retreat or evade.’ The palm you just threw, it’s power wasn’t weak, but the shaking movement of the pine tree absorbed all the power. You have to first learn how not to shake the tree, then you can chop it in one palm.” Guo Jing understood, happily saying, “It needs to be extremely fast, so your opponent has not time to block.”

Hong Qi-Gong rolled his eyes and said, “Isn’t that right? Do you even have to say it? You endeavor such a long time, and only understood these shallow ideas just now. Really dumb to the max,” and continued, “this stance is called ‘The Haughty Dragon has Regrets.” The essence is not on the word ‘haughty’ but ‘regrets’. If you only aim for speed and power, then as long as you are burly enough, anyone can do it. How will this stance make Huang Yao-Shi think highly of it? ‘The haughty dragon has regrets, satisfaction cannot be long’, therefore if there is advance, there must be retreat. The power you hit out is at 10, but the power you save should be 20. The day you understand taste of this ‘regret’, then you’ve mastered 30% of this stance. Just like old wine, the initial taste isn’t strong, but it gets more and more pure. That is idea ‘regret’. Everything in this world, as they go to the peak, then following it must be a decline. My 18 Subduing Dragon Palms roots from the ideas of ‘Yi-Jin’. The theory of ‘The Haughty Dragon has Regrets’ is that before reaching the peak, leave a route for retreat. This is martial arts that has only victory and no defeat. Martial arts that has only victory and no defeat, powerful enough? Even if you really are going to be defeated, it’s okay because we have saved much backup power.

Hong Qi-Gong couldn’t tell from his (Guo Jing) expression whether he really understood or not and said, ‘The 18 Subduing Dragon Palms’ theory is very profound. Back then when my teacher taught it to me, I thought the more power the better, used all my might to advance, and got slapped my my teacher. He said, “The essence of this palm style, is the direct opposite of a bull running into a wall. Even if your one stance contains of power of 1,000 pounds, 10,000 pound, there must be a time when you’re out of power. If your opponent is skilled, he’ll wait till the moment you run out of power and attack. By that time, you’ve used up all your 10,000 pound worth of power and don’t even have a few cents of power left. He only has to use some 3 pounds worth of power to defeat your 10,000 pound worth of power.’ This stance, The Haughty Dragon has Regrets is the base of the 18 Dragon Subduing Palms. Once you understand this stance, the rest of the 17 stances will not be hard. ‘Haughty’ means very bold, very impressive, and very powerful. A high flying dragon is rampant and very powerful, but just at this time, his power is at a peak, and from here on, there’s only decline and can no longer progress forward. The word ‘regret’ is to know that after great strength, there is decline to weakness. When a large boat is traveling with the current and opens its sails to go at full speed, it is easiest to hit a rock and sink. In both dealing with people and events, it is best to leave some leeway. I saw that you are loyal, earnest, and considerate of others, so I decided to teach you this art. This palms is not used to bully others but to save youself.

Guo Jing was greatly pleased, and couldn’t help but smile. “Only to hope to others don’t kill me, that’s good enough. I don’t want to kill others.”

Hong Qi-Gong nodded and patted his shoulder, saying, “Good boy. You don’t want to overwhelm others and don’t want to kill them. If you naturally think this, then you are perfect material for practicing this art. Being a little dumb is not a big problem. Having a good heart is the key thing. You innately don’t want to kill people, therefore you’ll naturally give leeway when fighting. That’s the ‘regret’ word. Our 18 Subduing Dragon Palms stress ‘if the enemy is strong, I must be stronger’, therefore it’s call ‘subdue dragon’, calling it “conquering tiger” too is also valid. The hardest part is to be able to be strong while still leaving leeway. But if you give too much leeway and have no power, it’s not good either.”

Hong Qi-Gong said this much, thinking that these profound concepts, his master had told him, but it wasn’t until many years later that he really understood them. Guo Jing didn’t seem to be very bright and pretty naive. A young lad will definitely not be able to understand these big theories, and said, “The concepts behind this palm is the same as your conduct and behavior. It’s okay if you don’t understand right now. I’ll teach you a few phrases from the books. Memorize them first and you can slowly understand them later.

“The first phrase, ‘blah blah blah, blah blah blah (forget it, I can’t make it to make sense. Who cares anyways?)’ We must first spot the weakness in the opponent before they show it. This stance, ‘The Haughty Dragon has Regrets’, is to predict and attack first, toward the weakness that he’s going to show. If he has already revealed his weakness, then don’t lose the chance and attack his weakness. Our theories for martial arts is greatly different from the Taoist theories. Lao-tze said, ‘Regarding actions and words: One cannot dare to be the host but the guest, and cannot dare to gain an inch but lose a foot.’ The main point being that one cannot fight for the first attack and stay in defense, using softness to overcome hardness. We use hardness against hardness, and softness against softness.

The second phrase, “ ‘Haughty’ is, knowing advance but not knowing retreat, knowing live but not knowing death, knowing have but not knowing loss, is that for the sage? One who knows advance, retreat, live, death, but now losing such stand, is that for the sage?’” (um, I think that how it suppose to go. Better than blah blah blah )

He said the words slowly one by one, teaching Guo Jing to say and memorize them. He explained, “After attacking, you must think of advance, but think of retreat even more; you must know that you live, but also know that you might die; You must know that this stance can give victory and know that you can face defeat. Victory is of course the best, but it’s okay if you don’t win, and even okay if you lose. As long as you’re not being pressed on the ground and being spanked, screaming, “Mercy, mercy!” Guo Jing heard this and started to laugh.

[CC]

Like DG9J, sounds nice and fancy when JY writes the theory. But if you take GJ and H7G's fight at the end of LOCH. H7G uses the Kang Long You Hiu in the last stance and it sure didn't look like he was using 10 and saving 20 of his power. IIRC, he couldn't withdraw his full power either.

[philip]

i heard from the thrid version of LOCH, both H7G and Guo Jing gets the full XuZhu revised version of XL18Z. So, unforunately, H7G loses part of his geniusness .

personally i don't beleive much in the decline of martial arts theory. i think some things get better, some things gets worse. There are things that don't appear in one era and will appear in the next...and you really can't say which is more powerful

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by philip
i heard from the thrid version of LOCH, both H7G and Guo Jing gets the full XuZhu revised version of XL18Z. So, unforunately, H7G loses part of his geniusness .

yea, it was said that in the 2nd verison that at the Hua Shan Tournament, H7G didn't master HL18Z when he fought WCY. While in the 3rd verison, H7G have already master all of it. It kind of made WCY seem abit stronger.

for the declining theory, I only think the over all martial art level of the average fighters decrease. the martial art itself doesn't decrease, and people don't get weaker. but the martial art development should have increased as more people study it and refine it, there is also some dropping, losing martial art. so there are some ups and downs.

[CC]

Maybe, maybe not.

Until the revisions are out, it may be that XZ passed down the full set of 18. But between XZ and H7G some lousy beggar might have lost part of the 18.

[SolidSnake]

Originally posted by TaiHan
for the declining theory, I only think the over all martial art level of the average fighters decrease. the martial art itself doesn't decrease, and people don't get weaker. but the martial art development should have increased as more people study it and refine it, there is also some dropping, losing martial art. so there are some ups and downs.

Agree.
In my country, there are several noted authors of wuxia novels. One of the most noticeable point in the novels is that the art it self will only lost because of man-made calamity ( like Shaolin being burnt and lost lots of their scripts ) or force majeures. Eventually someone's bound to find them or there'll be outstanding people, who will be able to define new ( or make the refinement version ) arts. And usually the new generation find a bit improvement that can make them a bit stronger than the old ones. It serves well because most of the plot in wuxia novels is about revenge ( ie: you have to be stronger than the man who killed your father in order to kill him, and then his son / grandson should try to be stronger than you, etc )

[ToOn99]

I think it should have decreased, the more advanced the technology, the more people rely on the technology. They won't bother to learn any martial art.
If u can kill someone by just simply triggering a gun, why bother to learn HL18Z. It's just simply waste of time .

[Xiao Feng]

The Declination Theory?

Heck just compare martial arts achievement nowadays to say the Ming Dynasty.

[immakiku]

Originally posted by Xiao Feng
The Declination Theory?

Heck just compare martial arts achievement nowadays to say the Ming Dynasty.

Not that much lower. You have to realize that novels are fiction. Some of the things they describe just aren't possible.

[Xiao Feng]

You should get some of those documentaries about the Shaolin Temple. Some of the shit they could pull off are just out of this world. Considering the loss of many many Shaolin secrets through the centuries and the changing of times decreasing the talent pool, I'd say wuxia novel type feats might not be so impossible after all.

[kamii]

But martial today is way worse. Because people nowadays don't have the time to train, they don't have enough experience and they are not dedicated to fighting. People in the old days probably trained all day as they hav nothing else to do.

What made Bruce Lee such a good fighter was the fact that he had experience he had dedication and he trained like crazy......cause that was wat he devoted his life to. And he got paid big bucks for it!

[Xiao Feng]

Same thing probably happened those days. As technology advances, culture moves backwards. Ppl back then were capable of doing/building things that are impossible if not very very difficult to emulate nowadays. Why is that? What happened to all the knowledge and culture of the old days? Same thing happened to martial arts. Martial arts is a culture that is fading, same as every other culture of old, eventually replaced by the likes of Britney Spears, ESPN and the Internet.

[immakiku]

Originally posted by Xiao Feng
You should get some of those documentaries about the Shaolin Temple. Some of the shit they could pull off are just out of this world.

Actually, I've seen my share of Shaolin documentaries. I realize the extent of what they can do: that's why I'm saying there's not that much difference between now and then.

Originally posted by Xiao Feng
Considering the loss of many many Shaolin secrets through the centuries and the changing of times decreasing the talent pool, I'd say wuxia novel type feats might not be so impossible after all.

The only major loss was the burning of the temple. A few of the Shaolin disciples, however, survived to recreate the techniques that were lost. Although they couldn't have possibly recreated everything, they didn't say (in documentaries) that they were missing many important things. They had the core of Shaolin down correctly.

Wuxia novels were written in modern times. Any assumptions about the levels or types of martial arts would have to be made without factual basis. Even if the martial arts back then were amazing, novels couldn't known the exact levels and therefore can't be used as guides to real life martial arts. The best they can be is educated guesses.

[Xiao Feng]

Neither can we disregard the possibilities can we?