Does internal energy slows down?

[superboy]

Okay Phillip, give me what you got! I think the only valid evidence is using people other than the main heroes of the stories. Cause, we know that it would be hard to adjust when JY needs to show us great progress in a very short time. Basically, it would be hard to adjust.So my reasons for thinking it doesn't slow down do to mastery is because:
-GJ was at least 3 times slower than he was in LOCh during the 13 year period. Lets say GJ's deterioration is proportionally less since he used 9 Yin, the most advance type of cultivation in LOCH and ROCH. So if we say that the Greats is at 18-19 year old YG's level at 30, then they would never have reached their level in LOCH and ROCH is they improved 4 times or more slower than before.

-HR and YD also knew 9 Yin, and should have long mastered it after so many decades. But since they did not imrpove even close to the rate of GJ with 9 Yin, doesn't it makes the slowing(if there is any intended by JY) insignificant as long as you train?

-A martial artist that cultivated for a long time can almost never improve dramatically anymore even in a decade of period if they slowed down like GJ and YG did. So it is most likely it's JY's bad adjustment mistake.

-There is no trigger to it because people improves at different rates. So "amount" isn't a trigger. Say QQJ compare to ZBT. QQJ can never be in his league even when they both mastered QZ cultivation so long already. If people really do slow down, then could diciples gain up to their teacher's level really fast? Cause, a newbie gain a lot fast, while the teachers already slowed down exponentially. So how come in most sect like Shaolin, QZ, Wudang, etc., teachers are mostly way superior?

-Lastly, it's illogical cause your body has virtually no limit in the capacity of Chi you can have.

[ToOn99]

Let's rambling :P
I think, naturally the improvement of martial artist should be slowing down. If we can make an analogy, martial artist is a material, can be steel, wood, Aluminium, Fiber Carbon, etc. If u do material testing on this materials, basically they all show the same behaviour but different peak strength. Firstly, the strength of these materials gonna increase linearly/ Then slowing down and start showing non-linearity until it reaches its peak. Then it decreases gradually.
Why YD couldnt improve at the same rate as young GJ, that's just simply bcos he almost reached his peak.
Why YG could catch up with GJ ? that's also just simply bcos GJ almost reached his peak.
Whether YG could surpass GJ or not, I don't know. :P

[Suet Seung]

Since we're on the topic of internal energy , can someone explain on how the user heals themselves with their internal energy and how the user heals other people with their internal energy? Because it sorta confuses me with the process of how people use internal energy to heal other people and transfering all their energy to the other person (ie. Wu Ya Zi and Xu Zhu); what's the difference there?

Thanks

[CC]

It doesnt really have to follow any set rule.

Even in real life, people have their skills and strengths grow in spurts here and there depending on training and environmental variables.


MODS! Move this to the slowdown in internal str thread pls!

[kamii]

Since we're on the topic of internal energy , can someone explain on how the user heals themselves with their internal energy and how the user heals other people with their internal energy? Because it sorta confuses me with the process of how people use internal energy to heal other people and transfering all their energy to the other person (ie. Wu Ya Zi and Xu Zhu); what's the difference there?

I would also like to noe.

And another question: Y does some martial arts become so powerful so quickly? Some1s been training for like 30 yrs then this other guy picks up a book and learns it for a few days/weeks/months/years and they are superior!!

[philip]

Okay Phillip, give me what you got! I think the only valid evidence is using people other than the main heroes of the stories. Cause, we know that it would be hard to adjust when JY needs to show us great progress in a very short time. Basically, it would be hard to adjust.So my reasons for thinking it doesn't slow down do to mastery is because:

to get things clear, you don’t want GJ, YG, and ZBT to be used in this thread, rite?

-GJ was at least 3 times slower than he was in LOCh during the 13 year period. Lets say GJ's deterioration is proportionally less since he used 9 Yin, the most advance type of cultivation in LOCH and ROCH. So if we say that the Greats is at 18-19 year old YG's level at 30, then they would never have reached their level in LOCH and ROCH is they improved 4 times or more slower than before.

first…do you know when GJ’s rate slowed down? We can only calculate his “average” rate during LOCH and “average” rate in his 13 years. To put it simply, in LOCH, is GJ always improving at a constant rate? I doubt that GJ’s rate during his stay w/ OYF is the same as his rate while he’s playing w/ HR.

-HR and YD also knew 9 Yin, and should have long mastered it after so many decades. But since they did not imrpove even close to the rate of GJ with 9 Yin, doesn't it makes the slowing(if there is any intended by JY) insignificant as long as you train?

HR doesn’t train…I thought we established that. And I do think HR being 80-90% of GJ’s internal energy is reasonable…unless you can prove otherwise. Keep in mind that you set urself that the lifetime training of ppl like YZP (one of the best QZ 3rd generation) is only some 10% of a Great.
1Deng only knew the Sanskrit part of 9 yin…not ALL of 9 yin.

-A martial artist that cultivated for a long time can almost never improve dramatically anymore even in a decade of period if they slowed down like GJ and YG did. So it is most likely it's JY's bad adjustment mistake.

Depends on what you call dramatically. And of course, there could be different rate proportions for different levels and different ppl, nay? I think that’s what Toon was saying….

-There is no trigger to it because people improves at different rates. So "amount" isn't a trigger. Say QQJ compare to ZBT. QQJ can never be in his league even when they both mastered QZ cultivation so long already. If people really do slow down, then could diciples gain up to their teacher's level really fast? Cause, a newbie gain a lot fast, while the teachers already slowed down exponentially. So how come in most sect like Shaolin, QZ, Wudang, etc., teachers are mostly way superior?

I don’t see how ppl improving at different rates have anything to do with the idea that ppl’s rates can slow down. For example…you could go from a 60pts/day to 20pts/day, while I go from 70pts/day to 10pts/day. And second, ZBT has access to the full 9 yin…QQJ didn’t. What happened to the 30 (or something like that) year gap of teacher-disciple separaton?

-Lastly, it's illogical cause your body has virtually no limit in the capacity of Chi you can have.

Is that what JY said?

[superboy]

never mine

[superboy]

to get things clear, you don’t want GJ, YG, and ZBT to be used in this thread, rite?

Yeah, cause using them as proof isn't that dependable, but I never said exclude ZBT.

first…do you know when GJ’s rate slowed down? We can only calculate his “average” rate during LOCH and “average” rate in his 13 years. To put it simply, in LOCH, is GJ always improving at a constant rate? I doubt that GJ’s rate during his stay w/ OYF is the same as his rate while he’s playing w/ HR.

Excuse my mistake, GJ actually slowed down around 6 times during the 13 year peroid. If you say GJ slowed down because of mastery, then everyone will be like that also right? Is it possible that the general population would deteriorate that much? We both knew that he slowed down, but we are trying to figure out the reason. And again, your theory has no "trigger".

HR doesn’t train…I thought we established that. And I do think HR being 80-90% of GJ’s internal energy is reasonable…unless you can prove otherwise. Keep in mind that you set urself that the lifetime training of ppl like YZP (one of the best QZ 3rd generation) is only some 10% of a Great.

I don't see how that is reasonable at all. She was pushed back by GLFW in one move. You don't see that happening if your internal energy is close. We don't even need a poll on this, cause no one will say HR has that close internal energy to GJ. Why is YZP being 10% of the Greats unreasonable? I found it much reasonable than saying 3 of him aligning together would slaughter a Great. Then QQJ and another one of the 7 master aligned should be able to blow a Great away? YZP can't even compare close to QQJ, and we are talking a Great here.

HR doesn’t train…I thought we established that. And I do think HR being 80-90% of GJ’s internal energy is reasonable…unless you can prove otherwise. Keep in mind that you set urself that the lifetime training of ppl like YZP (one of the best QZ 3rd generation) is only some 10% of a Great.

Yeah, so doesn t that only even things out cause from what you said, HR is much smarter than GJ. Therefore, she's probably like how XF is to you. Surpassing all the seniors whom trained throughout their life. So why can't her talent make up for it? YOu rated GJ's talent very low.

Let's rambling :P
I think, naturally the improvement of martial artist should be slowing down. If we can make an analogy, martial artist is a material, can be steel, wood, Aluminium, Fiber Carbon, etc. If u do material testing on this materials, basically they all show the same behaviour but different peak strength. Firstly, the strength of these materials gonna increase linearly/ Then slowing down and start showing non-linearity until it reaches its peak. Then it decreases gradually.
Why YD couldnt improve at the same rate as young GJ, that's just simply bcos he almost reached his peak.
Why YG could catch up with GJ ? that's also just simply bcos GJ almost reached his peak.
Whether YG could surpass GJ or not, I don't know. :P

I do not believe that there is a peak in your internal energy capacity. XF only used Shaolin interanl energy, and at least reached Great level at 30. But is that his limit if he didn't die? Probably not. So we knew that even with Shaolin internal energy, the extension of the so call "peak" is higher than that of Great level. Especially with 9 Yin. Unless our peak is talking about the age problem that may or may not be the issue. Of course in terms of %, you do slow down cause that's what happens as you train longer, but that doesn't mean it's not "linear" if nothing special happens or when the adjustments are correctly made by JY.

Depends on what you call dramatically. And of course, there could be different rate proportions for different levels and different ppl, nay? I think that’s what Toon was saying….

That's what JY said. I would say 30-35% would be reasonable? If so, then that guy could not have increased that much if people do slow down 6 times. 6 times is already optimistic cause it's from the higest cultivation of LOCH and ROCH.

I don’t see how ppl improving at different rates have anything to do with the idea that ppl’s rates can slow down. For example…you could go from a 60pts/day to 20pts/day, while I go from 70pts/day to 10pts/day. And second, ZBT has access to the full 9 yin…QQJ didn’t. What happened to the 30 (or something like that) year gap of teacher-disciple separaton?

ZBT was still much stronger than QQJ in LOCH. And you should quit saying that 9 Yin boosted his energy cause it did not. Your energy does not gain if you do not apply the exercises to your cultivation. So that is impossible. Technique wise yes, internal energywise, no. Where did JY said so? And if people does slow down 6 times or more, then how much can a 30 year gap make. Then we won't see sects with teachers mostly far ahead of the students. And I see different rate as a problem cause it means that "amount" is not the trigger" for the slowing down. If there is no trigger, it doesn't happen.

Is that what JY said?

In the real world and also logic. No character of JY ever suffer from too much internal energy. Sweeper never have he? XZ also never had he? It's up to a person to proof something if a theory is suggested. You don' ask a person to prove a negitive.

[superboy]

Okay, does anyone agree that HR has at least 80-90% amount of internal energy compare to GJ?

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by superboy
Okay, does anyone agree that HR has at least 80-90% amount of internal energy compare to GJ?

I hate to put numerical values on subjective things, but NO way that HR would be 80-90% GJ.

Originally posted by Suet Seung

Since we're on the topic of internal energy , can someone explain on how the user heals themselves with their internal energy and how the user heals other people with their internal energy? Because it sorta confuses me with the process of how people use internal energy to heal other people and transfering all their energy to the other person (ie. Wu Ya Zi and Xu Zhu); what's the difference there?

Thanks

IMHO, the objective is to open up the meridians and vessels, in order to let the body heal itself. One problem with internal injury is htat all the bodies' channels got blocked. THe body (i.e. chi, white cells, whatevers)cannot access it and therefore cannot heal it.

[superboy]

Originally posted by Han Solo
I hate to put numerical values on subjective things, but NO way that HR would be 80-90% GJ.

I 137% agree with you.

[philip]

Originally posted by superboy
Yeah, cause using them as proof isn't that dependable, but I never said exclude ZBT.


Excuse my mistake, GJ actually slowed down around 6 times during the 13 year peroid. If you say GJ slowed down because of mastery, then everyone will be like that also right? Is it possible that the general population would deteriorate that much? We both knew that he slowed down, but we are trying to figure out the reason. And again, your theory has no "trigger".


I don't see how that is reasonable at all. She was pushed back by GLFW in one move. You don't see that happening if your internal energy is close. We don't even need a poll on this, cause no one will say HR has that close internal energy to GJ. Why is YZP being 10% of the Greats unreasonable? I found it much reasonable than saying 3 of him aligning together would slaughter a Great. Then QQJ and another one of the 7 master aligned should be able to blow a Great away? YZP can't even compare close to QQJ, and we are talking a Great here.


Yeah, so doesn t that only even things out cause from what you said, HR is much smarter than GJ. Therefore, she's probably like how XF is to you. Surpassing all the seniors whom trained throughout their life. So why can't her talent make up for it? YOu rated GJ's talent very low.


I do not believe that there is a peak in your internal energy capacity. XF only used Shaolin interanl energy, and at least reached Great level at 30. But is that his limit if he didn't die? Probably not. So we knew that even with Shaolin internal energy, the extension of the so call "peak" is higher than that of Great level. Especially with 9 Yin. Unless our peak is talking about the age problem that may or may not be the issue. Of course in terms of %, you do slow down cause that's what happens as you train longer, but that doesn't mean it's not "linear" if nothing special happens or when the adjustments are correctly made by JY.


That's what JY said. I would say 30-35% would be reasonable? If so, then that guy could not have increased that much if people do slow down 6 times. 6 times is already optimistic cause it's from the higest cultivation of LOCH and ROCH.


ZBT was still much stronger than QQJ in LOCH. And you should quit saying that 9 Yin boosted his energy cause it did not. Your energy does not gain if you do not apply the exercises to your cultivation. So that is impossible. Technique wise yes, internal energywise, no. Where did JY said so? And if people does slow down 6 times or more, then how much can a 30 year gap make. Then we won't see sects with teachers mostly far ahead of the students. And I see different rate as a problem cause it means that "amount" is not the trigger" for the slowing down. If there is no trigger, it doesn't happen.


In the real world and also logic. No character of JY ever suffer from too much internal energy. Sweeper never have he? XZ also never had he? It's up to a person to proof something if a theory is suggested. You don' ask a person to prove a negitive.

on issue of ZBT w/ 9 yin:
ZBT DID unconsciously practice 9 yin. heck, he could get skills out of it, he sure can get high class theories out of it to apply to his own training.

on issue of HR:
First, she defintely can stance w/ much more than 1 stance against GLFW in full health. Only her stick broke and she had exchanged blows w/ him before that. Also, OYF nearly took her out at the begining of ROCH, but moments just before that, she exchanged 10 stances w/ him no showing any sign of weakness.
Second, her talent surpasses GJ by heeds (in my opinion) in learning or getting the essence. GJ lacks mental talent compared to HR but for me, i think he has good physical talent, as in once he gets it, he'll train well with it. So, like i said before, I'll give about 90pt talent to HR and 50pt talent to GJ. However, when we get into training....GJ puts 100% effort, while HR in my opinions would may some 25%. Hence, GJ is able to come out ahead of HR.
Third, i never said that i found YZP being 10% of great unreasonable. But, if you apply it that way, HR does not have a "one or two YZP's lifetime internal cultivation" difference in terms of internal energy from GJ. Keep in mind YZP has some 20-30 years of QZ cultivation in him and is one of the best in his generation.

In dealing with the Greats:
Who said the Greats maxed out when they were 30? HYS and OYF continued to work on new arts and improve old ones after the Hus Shan Tournament. In the second version, H7G didn't even finish mastering XL18Z by the time of the Hua Shan Tournament, and it was said that he didn't use it until after age 35.

In dealing w/ the amount of internal energy one can gain:
being limitless doesn't mean that one will always gain at the same rate. I mean, really, therez no real limit how fast people can run (records are broken now and then), but i don't think people keep shaving the same seconds every time.

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
on issue of ZBT w/ 9 yin:
ZBT DID unconsciously practice 9 yin. heck, he could get skills out of it, he sure can get high class theories out of it to apply to his own training.

on issue of HR:
First, she defintely can stance w/ much more than 1 stance against GLFW in full health. Only her stick broke and she had exchanged blows w/ him before that. Also, OYF nearly took her out at the begining of ROCH, but moments just before that, she exchanged 10 stances w/ him no showing any sign of weakness.
Second, her talent surpasses GJ by heeds (in my opinion) in learning or getting the essence. GJ lacks mental talent compared to HR but for me, i think he has good physical talent, as in once he gets it, he'll train well with it. So, like i said before, I'll give about 90pt talent to HR and 50pt talent to GJ. However, when we get into training....GJ puts 100% effort, while HR in my opinions would may some 25%. Hence, GJ is able to come out ahead of HR.
Third, i never said that i found YZP being 10% of great unreasonable. But, if you apply it that way, HR does not have a "one or two YZP's lifetime internal cultivation" difference in terms of internal energy from GJ. Keep in mind YZP has some 20-30 years of QZ cultivation in him and is one of the best in his generation.

In dealing with the Greats:
Who said the Greats maxed out when they were 30? HYS and OYF continued to work on new arts and improve old ones after the Hus Shan Tournament. In the second version, H7G didn't even finish mastering XL18Z by the time of the Hua Shan Tournament, and it was said that he didn't use it until after age 35.

In dealing w/ the amount of internal energy one can gain:
being limitless doesn't mean that one will always gain at the same rate. I mean, really, therez no real limit how fast people can run (records are broken now and then), but i don't think people keep shaving the same seconds every time.

That is only skill wise for ZBT. We knew that ZBT felt embarrassed when he resulted in using 9 Yin techniques to fight YG in the third revision. So saying that he applied theories of 9 Yin to the cultivation is not likely.

On HR, we just see that HR power does seems to be far behind that of GLFW. And I do not take much physical talents into consideration cause u said once before that GJ having 80% of OYF's internal energy at the start was unreasonable even when I told you that he was much younger etc etc. Explain that first. Anyway, I don't see how YZP having 10% of the Great's energy got to do with anything with HR. Totally different cultivations.


On the greats, I never said that they maxed out. But they should have fully mastered their cultivation, so it should have slowed down. Cause before mastery lets you increase the fastest right? Either way, the Greast showned no signs of improving exponentally faster than they were in LOCh and ROCH. MAstered the cultivation or not at the age of 30, my point is made clear. Also realize that I was just refering to internal energy, not techniques or skills.

On internal energy, since people never shows to decrease exponentally, you need to provide proofs inorder to back it up. It's your theory after all.

[yu]

Just curious if someone doesn't practice does the amout of internal energie decrease or just stays the same?

[superboy]

Originally posted by yu
Just curious if someone doesn't practice does the amout of internal energie decrease or just stays the same?

It stays the same in JY's world cause XLN still kept it after slacking for 16 years.

[philip]

That is only skill wise for ZBT. We knew that ZBT felt embarrassed when he resulted in using 9 Yin techniques to fight YG in the third revision. So saying that he applied theories of 9 Yin to the cultivation is not likely.

he still pulled them skills out, didn't he?
plus, if he gets theories and the essence of it...he can't say he stole from 9 yin, can he? I mean, he thought the fists he pulled out on YG were his own creation too.

On HR, we just see that HR power does seems to be far behind that of GLFW. And I do not take much physical talents into consideration cause u said once before that GJ having 80% of OYF's internal energy at the start was unreasonable even when I told you that he was much younger etc etc. Explain that first. Anyway, I don't see how YZP having 10% of the Great's energy got to do with anything with HR. Totally different cultivations.

physical talent and physique in battle are quite different, if you mind. Physical talent, i define, is how well a person can gain from practicing an art. People w/ the same brain and hard workingess doesn't always come out equal.

On the greats, I never said that they maxed out. But they should have fully mastered their cultivation, so it should have slowed down. Cause before mastery lets you increase the fastest right? Either way, the Greast showned no signs of improving exponentally faster than they were in LOCh and ROCH. MAstered the cultivation or not at the age of 30, my point is made clear. Also realize that I was just refering to internal energy, not techniques or skills.

On internal energy, since people never shows to decrease exponentally, you need to provide proofs inorder to back it up. It's your theory after all.

have they? yi deng just learned xian tian gong after teh hua shan tournament. OYF still worked on his toad stance. HYS comes up with numerous things.
Not to mentions that most of the greats had a dose of 9 yin, didn't they?
my theory works for me...i don't see the reason why i have to proove it to you, b/c you haven't "disproved" it, it can always be counted on as a "possibilty" nay? rememeber...i've never used the theory of "mastery" to PROOVE anything.

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
he still pulled them skills out, didn't he?
plus, if he gets theories and the essence of it...he can't say he stole from 9 yin, can he? I mean, he thought the fists he pulled out on YG were his own creation too.


physical talent and physique in battle are two different things if you mind. Physical talent, i define, is how well a person can gain from practicing an art. People w/ the same brain and hard workingess doesn't always come out equal.

Again, you have no proof at all that ZBT ever used 9 Yin to cultivate. It is most probable that he did not. And there ware absolutely no evidence to how skills can improve one's internal energy during medication. If you cannot prove your points, then it becomes meaningless when you suggest it out.

And is physical talent just your own guess? cause if it is not supported by evidence, then it would become irrelevant. I had never heard anything about a person being able to accumulate energy better because of physical talents. Do not use any "evidence" that are ambiguous.

[superboy]

And where is your prrofs of people slowing down exponentially???? Since you asked me to prove it as wrong, I'll ask you to prove it as righk, which is more befitting since it is your thory after all. If there is no proofs, then the theory is no longer a "theory'. But only a guess that came from gut fellings.

[superboy]

On the greats, I never said that they maxed out. But they should have fully mastered their cultivation, so it should have slowed down. Cause before mastery lets you increase the fastest right? Either way, the Greats showned no signs of improving exponentally faster than they were in LOCh and ROCH. MAstered the cultivation or not at the age of 30, my point is made clear. Also realize that I was just refering to internal energy, not techniques or skills.

Still haven't comment on this post of mine.

[immakiku]

Originally posted by philip
I mean, really, therez no real limit how fast people can run (records are broken now and then), but i don't think people keep shaving the same seconds every time.

[comedy]
According to Einstein, the limit's at 3 x 10^8 meters/second.
[/comedy]