The obsolescence of traditional wushu vs. non-wushu martial arts

[Battosai]

Although I love wuxia novels, I've been made painfully aware that traditional kungfu, wushu, is probably the most useless form of traditional Asian martial arts. In K1 and other mixed martial arts competitions, jujutsu and muay thai specialists have destroyed kung fu practioners. This is doubly so when Western wrestlers are included; even against wrestling, kung fu has failed.

Some of the traditional defenses for kung fu have been that the real masters do not fight in the ring for the Japanese or American audience for blood money. Or that real masters don't fight at all.

Well, this following article will shatter many of the cozy beliefs you have about kung fu. It will demonstrate that, even in HK and China proper--amongst the true masters--kung fu has been found lacking.

In Asia, post WWII, myriad of fights were held between Chinese--both HK and mainland--fighters and Muay Thai fighters. Before the West has ever heard of Bruce Lee or kung fu, wushu experts were being destroyed--utterly and completely--by Muay Thai fighters.

Here's an article that a friend sent me today that graphically illustrates the deficiencies of kung fu:

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Origin and Purpose of Chinese Martial Science Part 5

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A History of Kung Fu VS Muay Thai

Left: Hong Kong Taiji expert Hu Sheng in a 1958 Challenge in Ratchadamnern Stadium Bangkok. Right: His fellow Taiji fighter Zhang Yaoqiang. They were the pioneer Kung Fu fighters to face Muay Thai in the Ring. Both were knocked out under 1 round.

In the K1 fighting circuit today, the Muay Thai skill of 3x Champion Peter Aerts continues to dominate the ring. Why do we never see any Sanshou fighters ever competing in K1? One of the reasons why 'Sanshou' in Sport Wushu exist as it is today is due to the many defeats by Kung Fu fighters at the hands of Thai boxers in the past few decades. Sanshou today is virtually a watered down version of amateur Muay Thai. This shows an unwilling admittance of the superiority of Muay Thai techniques & the importance of contact sparring. Though inadequate, it is the best Sport Wushu can offer in reality application. Like amateur Thai boxers, Sanshou competitors are clad in padding from head to toe, but unlike them, they are disallowed elbow & knee attacks. Worse, they are not even allowed to use continuous strikes. Sanshou fighters are only allowed the low roundhouse kicks from the Muay Thai arsenal. Stand-up grappling in Sanshou is adequate, but it would still not be enough against Muay Thai. As a result, put an amateur Thai boxer & Sanshou fighter of similar experience together & the former would almost surely win. Why do the advocates of Sanshou not try to improve on this?

Left: 1 of the 5 Hong Kong Kung Fu fighters getting knocked out a 1974 Challenge in Lumpinee Stadium, Bangkok. Right: Another Hong Kong Kung Fu fighter whacked in a Muay Thai Expo in Hong Kong, 1981.

Kung Fu experts who fought with Thai boxers through the years always found themselves defenceless against a barrage of low/high roundhouses & elbow/knee strikes in the ring. Some of these experts had tremendous power - they could smash rocks & bricks with bare hands. Yet none of this power prove to be of any use at all in the face of rapid Muay Thai combos. Most of them could not even get a single blow to connect at all. On the other hand, Thai boxers see all sorts of openings in their rigid stances & took advantage of these to great effect. Almost all those Kung Fu fighters lost by knockout. What is the significance of these complete defeats?

Left: Wushu master Xu Xiaolong smashing a rock with his iron palm in a 1985 Friendly in Shanghai Stadium, China. Right: Xu's iron palm proved ineffective against his Thai opponent a few moments later. The match was declared a draw just as Xu was abt to be knocked out.

The deciding technique that destroys Kung Fu fighters is commonly a roundhouse to the face/ abdomen/ thigh, or knee strikes up close in the ribs. Traditional Kung Fu attacks & defenses were proven to be way obsolete in the world of martial arts today. The inability to fully utilize the legs, & a lack of sparring practice are the greatest weaknesses of old Kung Fu systems. Obviously Kung Fu had neglected leg technique development for more than a millenium, or perhaps they were just too fancy. The Thais have been practicing & perfecting the use of their shins & knees for hundreds of years. They know how to defend against all kinds of attacks, & their bodies & minds are fully conditioned by daily sparring. How could Kung Fu ever bridge this big gap, unless it humbly learns from the strengths of Muay Thai?

Left: A Malaysian Kung Fu fighter using a knee kick against his Thai opponent in a Sep 1974 Challenge in Kuala Lumpur Stadium. Right: Tan Guancheng, 1 of the 2 famous fighters who actually defeated their Thai opponents by points that day. Tan was nicknamed "The Warrior Sage of Penang (his hometown)".

Bruce Lee was the 1st to see the inadequacies of following blindly the old traditions. He knew that Kung Fu badly needed reform, or faced becoming a vase - nice to behold & keep, but innately fragile & hardly useful. Sport Wushu is perhaps a touched up, modernized version, but essentially still a vase. Sanshou is a half-hearted attempt at reform at best. It is indeed laughable that the Central Govt in China would want today's Wushu to be an Olympic event. Do these communists want to boast to the world how inadequate our 4 thousand-year martial traditions have become?

Left: Hong Kong fighter Chen Zhaojia facing Montong in a Nov 1981 Challenge in Hong Kong. He was knocked out by knee kicks in 1 round. Right: Fellow fighter Guo Huaqiang also defeated that day. He put up a good fight, but threw in the towel in the 3rd round.

After all, now even the Thais are lobbying to get amateur Muay Thai into the major Games. Some time in the future, I foresee a situation that has happened before in Japan happen in China. Just as Japanese Karate has long separated into 2 major forces - Sport & Full Contact styles; perhaps there will come a time when the Chinese martial arts world will also separate also into Sport & Contact traditions. Will this be a key to resurrect the down trodden honor of Kung Fu?

Traditional Karate Masters who fought & lost - Left: Jul 1974 Lumpini Stadium. 2nd Dan Wado-ryu Karate expert taking a beating from Ramchai. Right: Oct 1974 Ratchadamnern Stadium. 5th Dan Shotokan Karate Shihan fought retired Muay Thai veteran fighter Chuchai. Chuchai won by TKO in the 2nd round.

Learning from Muay Thai doesn't mean we must all give up on our heritage & become Thai boxers in order to be useful. It means to mend the weaknesses of our traditions with the strengths of Muay Thai. The Japanese did this to their karate & invented Kick boxing, whereas the Chinese came up with Sanshou. Sanshou standards are not up to par with that of Kick boxing, still less even to that of Muay Thai. The kind of Sanshou we need is one that is without pads, one that is unashamed to combine Kung Fu & Muay Thai.

THE American Kickboxer's unpublicized defeats - Left: California Mar 1977. Benny 'The Jet' Urquidez's 1st titanic struggle against Thai boxer Nalongleng. A high roundhouse finally downed him after a marathon 9 round. But the judges declared the match a 'No Decision' anyway. Left: Tokyo Rematch Aug 1978. Benny again learning the power of Muay Thai low kicks as well as knees. He lost by decision to Bayud after 6 punishing rounds. It was his 2nd & last defeat. Benny never fought another Thai boxer again.

Bajiquan, the art of the 8 extreme fists, the traditional Kung Fu that I'm learning is visionary in the sense that it emphasizes on the development of all 8 parts of the human body (head, shoulder, back, hips, hands, feet, elbows & knees) to their maximum. It is a pure martial art & has no sport aspect in it at all. A true Baji fighter can strike with any part of his body at various distances with great force generated from the earth (rooting). That is why it is a protected art for many centuries. But even so the neglect of 2 important parts, the feet & the knees is still common among its exponents. If we were somehow able to incorporate such conditioning techniques from Muay Thai into the Baji system, then Baji would indeed transform into the perfect Kung Fu system - one that will be able to face, if not overcome Muay Thai. The same could be said for Sanshou, as well as many other practical styles of Kung Fu. So far only Kyokushin Karate & Kickboxing, both Japanese inventions, may qualify for this honor. All other striking arts are still way behind.

Another American Kickboxer who fought & learned - Left: Don 'The Dragon' Wilson beat Che Le & another Thai boxer in Hong Kong 1980. Right: Don getting punished for that by Samart in Lumpinee Stadium Dec 1983. He lost by decision but managed to endure 5 rounds of beating.

Kung Fu has been operational for 4000 years not solely because of the genius of the Han Chinese of the Central Plains, but it also benefited from the tenacity of the fighting tactics of surrounding 'barbaric' tribes such as Indians, Manchus, Mongols, Turks etc. Being invaded & conquered by small tribes through the ages proves that learning from the strength of others is not shameful, it is a necessity for continued survival & a sign of magnanimity. If there were any time to wise up, it would be now, at the brink of the next millenium. Do so before the Thais throw us even further back in its evolution of Muay Thai. Some say that the perfect martial art is a smooth integration of Muay Thai & Jujutsu. I believe there are merits to this belief. Already many western NHB fighters have combined Boxing & Wrestling to great effect. Perhaps in the future another 'Bruce Lee' will lead our obsolete Kung Fu/Wushu to that stage of development? If only he had not died so young; till then let us continue learning as openly as we can.

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(pictures omitted, as they're on my hard drive)

[Xiao Feng]

Its really the lack of actual sparring/fighting experience and practitioners following rigidly to form instead of understanding essence that is holding kung fu back. Kung Fu is not lacking, the practitioners are.

[superboy]

Haha, I don't know what to say. Are there any public matches that kung fu actually beat a friegn fighting style?

[Battosai]

At early stages of UFC, Taichi practioners had some success but never at televised level. In Pride, kung fu guys were fodders for wrestlers or jujutsu guys. I don't think there are any kung fu guys competing in Pride anymore.

Kungfu, I've heard, had better successes against karate. I have heard of some fights in the 60's between karate and wing chun masters, where wing chun won. Anacdotal, though.

[Xiao Feng]

Don't know but this weakness of modern kung fu is a known one. I remember reading a book called the art of shaolin, it is written by a famous master of shaolin origin saying that many kung fu practitioners only concentrate on forms instead of function. He also explicitly states that a practitioner of kung fu after 5 years of training will lose to a practitioner of 5 years of muay thai or karate. He explains that shaolin kung fu is not just a way of beating the crap out of someone, but much much more complex and refined than that. It is a highly advance martial art having thousands of years of culture and evolution. Muay Thai and kickboxing on the other hand are the most primitive form of fighting, sole purpose being to beat up the other guy.

The arts have not deteriorated, the people learning them have. Muay Thai and kick boxing being of simpler purpose and form is easier to leanr and master and seems deadlier in combat. Kung fu is advance and complex, its purpose concentrating on the well being of oneself and others.

I could go on, but I guess thats enough.

[superboy]

ICIC. Then are those Iron Palm shattering bricks stories myths? Cuz if they can do that, they would probably win right?

[Battosai]

Originally posted by Xiao Feng
Its really the lack of actual sparring/fighting experience and practitioners following rigidly to form instead of understanding essence that is holding kung fu back. Kung Fu is not lacking, the practitioners are.

Lack of full-contact sparring is a big part but even bigger part is underutilization of feet and knees, and the lack of competent below-ground grappling. Kung fu works fine above ground, but as soon as grappling starts, it loses. Sao Chiao and Chin n'a(spelling?) are ancient forms of Chinese grappling but they're above the belt grappling like judo, with jacketed throws. When it gets to jujutsu-style locks, holds and guards on the ground, they're helpless.

[Battosai]

Originally posted by superboy
ICIC. Then are those Iron Palm shattering bricks stories myths? Cuz if they can do that, they would probably win right?

I think it was Bruce Lee who said, "bricks don't dodge".

[superboy]

Originally posted by Battosai
I think it was Bruce Lee who said, "bricks don't dodge".

But how can it be possible that those opponents don't even block and a Iron Palm guy will miss all of them. I mean, you would guess an impact that strong would break the bones.

[Xiao Feng]

Originally posted by Battosai
Lack of full-contact sparring is a big part but even bigger part is underutilization of feet and knees, and the lack of competent below-ground grappling. Kung fu works fine above ground, but as soon as grappling starts, it loses. Sao Chiao and Chin n'a(spelling?) are ancient forms of Chinese grappling but they're above the belt grappling like judo, with jacketed throws. When it gets to jujutsu-style locks, holds and guards on the ground, they're helpless.

Underutilisation of feet and knees is because of the influence of the southern style of kung fu. I don't remember correctly but somehow or rather kung fu split into 2, northern concentrating on leg attacks and south concentrating on arm attacks. Hence "Nan chuen, Bei tui" (South Fist, North Leg). Even then, kung fu has various ingenious ways of countering any attacks be it legs, knees or otherwise. Grappling on the ground has never been an emphasize field in kung fu, maybe due to chinese thinking it looks crude and uncivilised, not for them well mannered chinese . The point still is since kung fu does not resort to ground grappling, it'll have a way of getting the hell out of it. To me, there is no move that cannot be countered. There are ways, but you have to avoid falling into grapplers trap.

[Xiao Feng]

Originally posted by superboy
But how can it be possible that those opponents don't even block and a Iron Palm guy will miss all of them. I mean, you would guess an impact that strong would break the bones.

Like I said, emphasis on form not function. These guys train iron palm force but not how to use the damn thing. Its like you have a gun but can't shoot straight.

[Xiao Feng]

Thing is guys, if your aim is to beat people up or participate in aimless brawl like competitions, you're better of with muay thai and wrestling and jujitsu and such. Don't bother with kungfu because by the time you are well trained enough in kung fu to be able to fight competently against the other guys, you are either:
a) an old fart
b) can't be bothered with it
Know though that you can and will beat those guys if you have to.

As a sidenote. If the iron palm guy knows what he is doing. He'd just defend and wait for a chance to smash the muay thai guys face in. That he is unable to do so proves that he is imcompetent in actual fighting and not worthy to be a representative of the great arts of kungfu.

[superboy]

Originally posted by Xiao Feng
Like I said, emphasis on form not function. These guys train iron palm force but not how to use the damn thing. Its like you have a gun but can't shoot straight.

But to not even get one hit on the guy? Can't be that pathetic.....

[Ken Cheng]

Well, this is certainly a blow to the ethnic pride of Han Chinese. No *wonder* our wuxia writers come up with stories about kung fu masters who are like supermen. We were compensating for something all along!

[Battosai]

Originally posted by Xiao Feng
Underutilisation of feet and knees is because of the influence of the southern style of kung fu. I don't remember correctly but somehow or rather kung fu split into 2, northern concentrating on leg attacks and south concentrating on arm attacks. Hence "Nan chuen, Bei tui" (South Fist, North Leg). Even then, kung fu has various ingenious ways of countering any attacks be it legs, knees or otherwise. Grappling on the ground has never been an emphasize field in kung fu, maybe due to chinese thinking it looks crude and uncivilised, not for them well mannered chinese . The point still is since kung fu does not resort to ground grappling, it'll have a way of getting the hell out of it. To me, there is no move that cannot be countered. There are ways, but you have to avoid falling into grapplers trap.

Except traditional wushu, southern or northern, is deficient in leg techniques. There's a reason why karate and muay thai leg techniques have filtered into PRC's wushu program for its special forces.

As for avoiding grappling, it's easier said than done. Everyone and their mother said, in the beginning of UFC, that if only person did this or that, he'd avoid grappling. Well, all said and done, that proved to be overly optimistic. The only way these fighters learned to counter grappling was to practice grappling themselves to familiarize with the techniques and the timing. This is in fact what had happened in Japan as early as 70's. Karate guys early learned that jujutsu was deadly and they began combining jujutsu with karate. Then they learned muai thay and boxing were better for striking than karate and moved out of the rigid karate stance, into boxing stance that's so familiar in mixed martial arts contests today.

[Xiao Feng]

Originally posted by Battosai
Except traditional wushu, southern or northern, is deficient in leg techniques. There's a reason why karate and muay thai leg techniques have filtered into PRC's wushu program for its special forces.

As for avoiding grappling, it's easier said than done. Everyone and their mother said, in the beginning of UFC, that if only person did this or that, he'd avoid grappling. Well, all said and done, that proved to be overly optimistic. The only way these fighters learned to counter grappling was to practice grappling themselves to familiarize with the techniques and the timing. This is in fact what had happened in Japan as early as 70's. Karate guys early learned that jujutsu was deadly and they began combining jujutsu with karate. Then they learned muai thay and boxing were better for striking than karate and moved out of the rigid karate stance, into boxing stance that's so familiar in mixed martial arts contests today.

Theres also a reason for the lack of leg techniques. Kicks although generate more force and have a longer striking distance (and are more popular with movie buffs cos they look better) are slow and easier to counter. Somehow they neglected it.

Yes of course its easier said than done. Doesn't mean it can't be done. Its just that these guys can't. Again a lack of sparring/fighting experience, in this case to grappling techniques. If you meant to say there is not one technique in all kung fu to counter grappling techniques you must be joking. Rigid stances were never meant for actual combat, its meant to guide and train the practitioners in the beginning. Once you understood the function you can apply the forms in more purposeful ways.

[Ardor]

Well the Shaolin monks don't fight right? I am too lazy to read that article.

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by Xiao Feng
Underutilisation of feet and knees is because of the influence of the southern style of kung fu. I don't remember correctly but somehow or rather kung fu split into 2, northern concentrating on leg attacks and south concentrating on arm attacks. Hence "Nan chuen, Bei tui" (South Fist, North Leg). Even then, kung fu has various ingenious ways of countering any attacks be it legs, knees or otherwise. Grappling on the ground has never been an emphasize field in kung fu, maybe due to chinese thinking it looks crude and uncivilised, not for them well mannered chinese . The point still is since kung fu does not resort to ground grappling, it'll have a way of getting the hell out of it. To me, there is no move that cannot be countered. There are ways, but you have to avoid falling into grapplers trap.

Nanquan Beitui is actually a crude generalisation, and there are certainly Chinese fighting systems which concentrate on ground fighting, namely Ditangquan (Ground Boxing) or Dujian Dog Style Boxing. But it is true that nowadays many Kungfu practitioners neglect grappling.

[Xiao Feng]

Here is a great link.

http://www.shaolin-wahnam.org/kungfuq1.html

[kamii]

Learning the Kung Fu and using the Kung Fu are pretty much 2 different things. To be able to use ur Kung Fu u hav to hav pracitced it to the stage where it's sort of like a reflex. Like if u see someone turn their foot out to to a round kick ur brain immediately noes and reacts with ur counter or wateva.