One more time: Hua Shan Connection

[rabadi]

Early last year I actually already asked this question, and I think it was Athena who answered it. The thread has been long gone, and I thought I'd like to ask about it one more time

Anyway, my question that time was concerning the Hua Shan Sect. In HSDS it was mentioned that Hua Shan Sect was an old sect, was around prior to Wudang and E-Mei. However, during the Hua Shan Tournament in LOCH and ROCH, we did not see any spectators from Hua Shan Sect there. Was it not founded yet at the time?

In SOD, we see YBQ as the head of Hua Shan Sect. Then moving on to the Sword Stained in Royal Blood / Crimson Saber era, we see Yuan Chengzhi's master (Mu Renqing) as the head of Hua Shan Sect. My question at that time was whether there was any connection between YBQ's Hua Shan Sect and Mu Renqing's Hua Shan Sect. In other words, are these two actually one school, meaning that Mu Renqing was YBQ's successor removed by several generations? If I'm not mistaken Athena's answer at that time was no, these Hua Shan Sects should not be related.

So, are they really not connected?

[Han Solo]

The question should be why are they not related.

[rabadi]

Okay, why are they not related?

[Yang Guo]

I would've thought they be the same since the two weren't that far apart having both taken place in Ming

Though it is kind of strange how they have a new dandy super martial arts that was unheard of from previous books.

[kamii]

Early last year I actually already asked this question, and I think it was Athena who answered it. The thread has been long gone, and I thought I'd like to ask about it one more time

haha i think i remember reading it, but i don't think i spoke as i really don't noe much. lol

[atlantean0208]

Originally posted by Yang Guo
I would've thought they be the same since the two weren't that far apart having both taken place in Ming

Though it is kind of strange how they have a new dandy super martial arts that was unheard of from previous books.

people create new martial-art all the time and then probably Jin Yong doesn't like to re-use certain martial-art and create another one

its not a good idea to copy from one own idea - lol

[Jian Shen]

Further more, some great master might have died b4 even completely teaching some of the technique. Or maybe some master secretly keep some technique from students.

[kamii]

Or maybe some master secretly keep some technique from students.

lol. This seems to happen alot in the smaller skools. Like the master is good at fighting but then every1 else is crap!

[Jian Shen]

Yeap, in SOD, only YBQ know Chi Ha Shen Gong. Or maybe He think that no one is still capable to master it?

Then in Crimson Sabre, Hua Shan got new shen gong called "Wan Yun Shen Gong". No more heard of any Chi Ha Shen Gong or Jade Maiden Sword...

[rabadi]

I've been thinking over this matter for a few days. Let's analyze it futher:
1. If the two schools were different, then it probably means YBQ's Hua Shan School, which is a sword sect, got disbanded by the end of SOD. It is quite likely, considering all the top members of Hua Shan School were dead or no longer around: YBQ, LHC, YBQ's wife, YLS, LPZ, LDN, LDY, etc.
2. While Mu Renqing's Hua Shan School also had some sword skills, I think it emphasized more on bare-handed gongfu. YCZ seemed to fight more bare-handed. If the two schools were actually one, then it means Hua Shan School was no longer a sword sect in the Sword Stained in Royal Blood era.
3. In SOD, we see YBQ struggling to become the best. His Hua Shan Sect was hardly the best of the era at that time (assuming we do not count FQY's presence, of course). Yet in Sword Stained, Hua Shan School was easily one of the best sect in the era. Mu Renqing was most likely the best fighter of the era. Even his two students (YCZ's martial brother and sister, the couple who had a retarded son) managed to create a chaos in the Imperial Palace in DOMD, although they died there in the end.

Considering the points above, so perhaps Athena was right. The two schools were not related. Perhaps I just previously felt that it would be more interesting if the two were related. Oh well...

[Athena]

I never said that both Huashan Schools are not connected at all.
In fact, it could very well be the same Huashan School. When Yuan Chengzhi became a Huashan pupil, he was to kneel before the portrait of a certain patriarch Feng. (Whether this patriarch Feng is Feng Qingyang, I leave that to your imagination).
And some of the sword stances Yuan Chengzhi used had the same names the Hua disciples used in The Smiling Proud Wanderer, however the names of those techniques were broadly used. I think in LOCH, ROCH certain Quanzhen sword techniques had the same names too.

About Huashan School prior to HSDS period. It is possible that a Huashan School was already in making or evolving during the first tournament at Mount Hua.
Remember the final chapter of ROCH, when Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi were trying to hide from reverend Jueyuan.
Xiaoxiang Zi said on their way up the mount, they came across a number of Taoist and Buddhist monasteries.
Well, it could be that in one of those monasteries (very simple) martial arts was being practised. And it was only after the ROCH period and prior to the HSDS era that one, or more talented martial artists in that/those monasteries was able to mould a Huashan School in existence. (Pure wild speculation from my part!).
Because in novels like DMSD there were Buddhist monasteries where Buddhist monks learnt martial arts but in those monasteries the emphasis was on Buddhist cultivation and not martial arts hence those monasteries were not martial arts schools. So, perhaps the same situation applied to the Huashan School, that it became a martial arts school under the leadership of Patriarch Feng?!? and placed emphasis on martial arts instead of Buddhism or Taoism creating a Huashan School.
(Again wild speculation on my part)

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Athena
When Yuan Chengzhi became a Huashan pupil, he was to kneel before the portrait of a certain patriarch Feng. (Whether this patriarch Feng is Feng Qingyang, I leave that to your imagination).

I must have forgotten about that part... or perhaps because I haven't read SOD fully, so when I read Sword Stained in Royal Blood the name patriarch Feng meant nothing to me. Perhaps it was Feng Buping instead of Feng Qingyang? (just kidding, of course it was more likely to be Feng Qingyang)

Thanks one more time, Athena.

[Jian Shen]

Originally posted by rabadi
I've been thinking over this matter for a few days. Let's analyze it futher:
1. If the two schools were different, then it probably means YBQ's Hua Shan School, which is a sword sect, got disbanded by the end of SOD. It is quite likely, considering all the top members of Hua Shan School were dead or no longer around: YBQ, LHC, YBQ's wife, YLS, LPZ, LDN, LDY, etc.
2. While Mu Renqing's Hua Shan School also had some sword skills, I think it emphasized more on bare-handed gongfu. YCZ seemed to fight more bare-handed. If the two schools were actually one, then it means Hua Shan School was no longer a sword sect in the Sword Stained in Royal Blood era.
3. In SOD, we see YBQ struggling to become the best. His Hua Shan Sect was hardly the best of the era at that time (assuming we do not count FQY's presence, of course). Yet in Sword Stained, Hua Shan School was easily one of the best sect in the era. Mu Renqing was most likely the best fighter of the era. Even his two students (YCZ's martial brother and sister, the couple who had a retarded son) managed to create a chaos in the Imperial Palace in DOMD, although they died there in the end.

Considering the points above, so perhaps Athena was right. The two schools were not related. Perhaps I just previously felt that it would be more interesting if the two were related. Oh well...

Correction on the 1st point, YBQ was from the Chi Sect, not Sword Sect

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Jian Shen
Correction on the 1st point, YBQ was from the Chi Sect, not Sword Sect

Correction here, YBQ was from the Chi Branch, Hua Shan School itself was still a sword sect